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Qanael
2008-09-03, 06:36 PM
Hi everyone. I'm about to make a new, 17th-level character for a new campaign (mind you, the highest-level campaign I've been in so far) and I was thinking of building an Illusionist.

Now, the DM is asking us to make detailed backgrounds for our characters, so my girlfriend and I were discussing possibly coming from the same wizard academy. This is a Planescape game, and the DM pretty much gave us free choice as to what material plane we come from. This also means most splatbooks are allowed.

I was looking over the Master Specialist PrC in CMage, and the esoterica for Illusionist look sweet. Free stilled, silent, material-free spells? Yes please! However, my girlfriend also wants to be a Master Specialist. While we think there is enough distinction between the different specializations to make distinct (pardon the redundances) characters, I was wondering what other PrCs would be good.

I know your cheese detectors must be screaming at the idea of a dual-wizard party, and I am a decent optimizer, but our DM knows us very well and he explicitly said the campaign will be high-powered.

As far as race goes, I'll probably play a Gnome or Whisper Gnome. I could go for human if the extra feat is very valuable.

Your help is greatly appreciated! :smallbiggrin:

shadow_archmagi
2008-09-03, 06:42 PM
What ever happened to good old Beguilers? You know, the class BUILT AROUND ILLUSION.

Sinfire Titan
2008-09-03, 06:43 PM
Hi everyone. I'm about to make a new, 17th-level character for a new campaign (mind you, the highest-level campaign I've been in so far) and I was thinking of building an Illusionist.

Now, the DM is asking us to make detailed backgrounds for our characters, so my girlfriend and I were discussing possibly coming from the same wizard academy. This is a Planescape game, and the DM pretty much gave us free choice as to what material plane we come from. This also means most splatbooks are allowed.

I was looking over the Master Specialist PrC in CMage, and the esoterica for Illusionist look sweet. Free stilled, silent, material-free spells? Yes please! However, my girlfriend also wants to be a Master Specialist. While we think there is enough distinction between the different specializations to make distinct (pardon the redundances) characters, I was wondering what other PrCs would be good.

I know your cheese detectors must be screaming at the idea of a dual-wizard party, and I am a decent optimizer, but our DM knows us very well and he explicitly said the campaign will be high-powered.

As far as race goes, I'll probably play a Gnome or Whisper Gnome. I could go for human if the extra feat is very valuable.

Your help is greatly appreciated! :smallbiggrin:

Shadowcraft Mage is never a bad class for an Illusionist. The DM is a different story, but Shadowcraft Mage never hurts the Illusionist.

Qanael
2008-09-03, 06:52 PM
What ever happened to good old Beguilers? You know, the class BUILT AROUND ILLUSION.

While I did consider a Beguiler, I've never played a pure spellcaster before, and I have played several roguelikes. Mostly pure rogues, and a spellthief. I wanted to try Wizard for a change, and the Illusionist specialization is quite appealing to me.

Edit: I'll look into Shadowcraft Mage. Thanks for the tip!

Mushroom Ninja
2008-09-03, 06:55 PM
Well, if you're a wizard, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500) will help.

Qanael
2008-09-03, 06:56 PM
Well, if you're a wizard, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500) will help.

Oh, I've read that a few times. It's made of win. Thanks anyway, though. :smallsmile:

Shades of Gray
2008-09-03, 07:37 PM
Nightmare Spinner is cool if you want to go to the darker side of things.

Qanael
2008-09-03, 08:01 PM
Alright, after looking at Master Specialist and Shadowcraft Mage and their prerequisites, I think I'll go something like:

Wizard (Illusionist) 3/Master Specialist 10/Shadowcraft Mage 4

for my 17-level build. Finish SCM in one level, and maybe cap off with 3 levels of Wizard. Perhaps Archmage, even?

This gives my illusion spells:

Silent Spell (overlaps from both classes, bit of a bummer)
Still Spell
Extend Spell
Eschew Materials
+4 DC (2 from Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus, 2 from Minor School Esoterica)
+2 CL

Master Specialist gives me 3 extra illusion spells known.

Shadowcraft Mage gives me 40% (edit: 35% at level 4) concealment as a free action, as long as I'm not in daylight. This doesn't stack with Master Specialist's Moderate School Esoterica, which gives normal concealment - I could use the latter in daylight, I guess. It only says "You gain concealment."

I also get the ability to use any illusion spell to cast a conjuration(summoning), conjuration(creation), or evocation spell of a lower level, with strength depending on the illusion's level, and a 20% bonus to shadow spells in general (including the previous ability).

Mushroom Ninja
2008-09-03, 08:02 PM
What are your prohibited schools?

Qanael
2008-09-03, 08:05 PM
What are your prohibited schools?

Definitely Evocation - one of the Shadowcraft Mage's primary abilities would be less useful if I didn't, plus the school sucks in general. Probably Enchantment for the second one, since my girlfriend's character will be an enchanter.

Now, time to look for some feats!

Edit: I'm looking at Nightmare Spinner right now. It has nice features, and synergizes awfully well with my other 2 PRCs. At level 20 I'd have 3 levels in it, which avoids the dead level nicely. However, it's a bit too dark for my taste - my character will likely be NG, and the whole scaring people half to death part might not be too appealing. I'll give it some thought. Thanks for the tip!

Jack_Simth
2008-09-03, 08:18 PM
Definitely Evocation - one of the Shadowcraft Mage's primary abilities would be less useful if I didn't, plus the school sucks in general. Probably Enchantment for the second one, since my girlfriend's character will be an enchanter.

Now, time to look for some feats!

Edit: I'm looking at Nightmare Spinner right now. It has nice features, and synergizes awfully well with my other 2 PRCs. At level 20 I'd have 3 levels in it, which avoids the dead level nicely. However, it's a bit too dark for my taste - my character will likely be NG, and the whole scaring people half to death part might not be too appealing. I'll give it some thought. Thanks for the tip!
I'm fond of the Complete Mage Reserve Feats, myself.

Minor Shapeshift: Swift-action temp HP = character level, renewable every round. Does wonders for your endurance. Only needs a 4th level spell for full effect.

Dimensional Jaunt: Get out of grapple and most other physical inconveniences, no roll required, every single time it comes up. Again, only needs a 4th level spell for full effect. Combine with the Invisibility spell (a 2nd level illusion that affects objects) and you can go through doors and walls without opening them.

If you don't have a trapfinder in the party, it's also a decent idea to take Summon Elemental (and combine with a Permanent Arcane Sight) as a free trapspringer.

As you're planning on taking levels in Shadowcraft mage, I might suggest Signature Spell (any Image spell - for the Shadowcraft conversion to a Shadow Evocation/Shadow Conjuration effect), Heighten Spell, and possibly things to boost that further (such as Earth Spell, Arcane Thesis (the Image spell you've got as a Signiture spell), and so on).

Qanael
2008-09-03, 09:51 PM
That Minor Shapeshift trick is very nice. I think I'll take that.

The "make door invisible, Dimensional Jaunt through" is outright cheesy. I love it. :smallbiggrin:

We have a decent-sized party (4 or 5, I think) so finding and disabling traps should not be a problem.

As for Signature Spell: that sounds great! Free shadow spells galore. Arcane Thesis is quite cheesy; I'll have to consult my DM for that one. Heighten Spell is very nice. I'm not so sure about Earth Spell; the prerequisite feat is pretty meh, and I'm running low on feats already.

Edit: I'm looking for a nice high-level illusion spell to make my signature spell. Any ideas? I'll be level 15 when I take the feat, so I guess it has to be 8th level or lower.

Editedit: Superior Invisibility seems as good a candidate as any. However, I have to pick it with Spell Mastery, which I would take at level 12. Does this mean I need to use a 6th level spell instead, or can I save the Spell Mastery until level 15?

Yep. Mislead it is, then. I could always wait until later for the whole Signature Spell combo...

Qanael
2008-09-04, 12:18 AM
Alright, so a preliminary character plan:

28 point buy for:

STR 6
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 20
WIS 14
CHA 10

Note: the campaign starts at 17th level, so the order of the classes isn't all that relevant except for the Gnome sub level.

{TABLE]CL|Class|Feats

1|Gnome Illusionist Racial Sub 1|Spellcasting Prodigy (I have background justification! :smalltongue:)
2|Illusionist 2|
3|Illusionist 3|Spell Focus (Illusion)
4|Master Specialist 1|Bonus Feat: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
5|Master Specialist 2|
6|Master Specialist 3|Bonus Feat: Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) <br>Heighten Spell
7|Master Specialist 4|
8|Master Specialist 5|
9|Master Specialist 6|Earth Sense
10|Master Specialist 7|
11|Master Specialist 8|
12|Master Specialist 9|Spell Mastery (Silent Image and other useful spells)
13|Master Specialist 10|
14|Shadowcraft Mage 1|
15|Shadowcraft Mage 2|Signature Spell (Silent Image)
16|Shadowcraft Mage 3|
17|Shadowcraft Mage 4|

[/TABLE]

Dropped schools: Evocation, Enchantment (Shadow casting ftw!)
-1 CL to Transmutation
I like the general look of it. However, I might stick Dimensional Jaunt at 9th level, Spell Mastery at 15th (for Superior Invisibility) and Signature Spell (Superior Invisibility) at 18.

Edit: read the following posts for the switch to Silent Image.

Opinions?

Douglas
2008-09-04, 12:36 AM
I think the point of recommending both Signature Spell and Heighten Spell is that you would be able to convert higher level spell slots into Heightened versions of the Signature Spell, thereby allowing you to spontaneously convert any spell slot of the same or higher level as your Signature Spell into that spell, heightened to whatever level the original spell was. You then proceed to use your Shadowcraft Mage abilities to turn it into a Shadow Conjuration/Evocation of whatever level you used.

The end result is that you can fuel your Shadow Illusion ability with any spell that is at least as high level as your signature spell without losing any spell levels by the conversion. What your signature spell does and what level it is are completely irrelevant to the final effect, so you actually want it to be as low level as possible to allow maximum flexibility in your spontaneous Shadow Illusions. So, you should be taking Signature Spell (Silent Image) rather than Signature Spell (Mislead).

Qanael
2008-09-04, 12:39 AM
Oh. Oooh. I get it now. That's...that's smart.

Sorry, I'm sleepy.

I'll edit the table above to reflect the use of brain power. :smalltongue: Thanks!

There, edited. Now I'm wondering whether I should change the order of my feats, but I don't see a point; the Signature Spell coincides nicely with the second level of SCM, and at third level I gain Shadow Illusion, which gives the feat its purpose.

Edit: Hmph. I don't get enough feats to get Earth Spell before 20th level. I'll have to do something else, I guess, or sacrifice Residual Magic for Earth Sense.

Qanael
2008-09-04, 01:26 AM
Bah. My DM doesn't want to let me apply metamagic to the Signature Spell. I guess a feat reshuffling is in order...

He allowed it after showing him the PHB's paragraph on cleric spontaneous metamagic. The feat does say it works just like it.

Douglas
2008-09-04, 01:52 AM
Is that just his interpretation of the rules, or a deliberate house rule? If the former, point out the following pair of quotes:
From Signature Spell:

just as a good cleric can spontaneously cast prepared spells as cure spells.
From the rules for metamagic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats):

A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell can cast a metamagic version of it instead.

It might also be worth mentioning that this trick costs two feats and doesn't actually make you more powerful at all. It just reduces the amount of advance planning you need to do.

ghost_warlock
2008-09-04, 03:29 AM
If you really want to go all-out on illusions, take a look at the gnome illusionist substitution levels in Races of Stone. Stack it with focused specialist variant from Complete Mage, master specialist (Complete Mage), shadowcraft mage (Races of Stone), and nightmare spinner (Complete Mage) for massive number of illusions spells/day.

You have to be a gnome, but considering it'll net you an inherent +1 bonus to your illusion save DCs (that stacks with Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus, which you'll need for/get from your other levels, as well as the +2 DC bonus for your "Will disbelief" spells from master specialist) and reduced spell levels for a number of spells (many of the image spells drop by a spell level or two so you can learn them earlier than normal) it's definitely worthwhile. :smallsmile:

You'll end up having to sacrifice 3 schools of magic (evocation, enchantment, and necromancy are probably the preferred drops) and suffer a reduced caster level for another but it'll net you +4 illusion spells prepared for each spell level once you head into nightmare spinner (+1 for specialist +2 for focused specialist +1 for nightmare spinner). It'll end you costing you 1 caster level (nightmare spinner 1) and a single general spell slot per spell level (focused specialist).

jcsw
2008-09-04, 05:22 AM
If you really want to go all-out on illusions, take a look at the gnome illusionist substitution levels in Races of Stone. Stack it with focused specialist variant from Complete Mage, master specialist (Complete Mage), shadowcraft mage (Races of Stone), and nightmare spinner (Complete Mage) for massive number of illusions spells/day.

You have to be a gnome, but considering it'll net you an inherent +1 bonus to your illusion save DCs (that stacks with Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus, which you'll need for/get from your other levels, as well as the +2 DC bonus for your "Will disbelief" spells from master specialist) and reduced spell levels for a number of spells (many of the image spells drop by a spell level or two so you can learn them earlier than normal) it's definitely worthwhile. :smallsmile:

You'll end up having to sacrifice 3 schools of magic (evocation, enchantment, and necromancy are probably the preferred drops) and suffer a reduced caster level for another but it'll net you +4 illusion spells prepared for each spell level once you head into nightmare spinner (+1 for specialist +2 for focused specialist +1 for nightmare spinner). It'll end you costing you 1 caster level (nightmare spinner 1) and a single general spell slot per spell level (focused specialist).

You just suggested like half the things that OP said he was doing already oO.

While you're abusing Shadowcraft Mage you might as well take Arcane Thesis (Silent Image) (PHBII) or something, +2 Caster Level, although I dunno what you'd do with the -1 metamagic cost... Apply Silent and Still... again?

EDIT: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=655556 may help, I hear it's quite cheesy though.

Qanael
2008-09-04, 10:40 AM
Is that just his interpretation of the rules, or a deliberate house rule? If the former, point out the following pair of quotes:
From Signature Spell:

From the rules for metamagic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats):


It might also be worth mentioning that this trick costs two feats and doesn't actually make you more powerful at all. It just reduces the amount of advance planning you need to do.

I know, it only increases my versatility. And after showing him the paragraph on cleric spontaneous metamagic in the PHB, he agreed to allow it.

For the gnome racial sub level - thanks! I hadn't seen that, and I'm already using Shadowcraft Mage (a gnome-only PrC) from Races of Stone, so I might as well. I'm not so sure about focused specialist - the fun part of this build is having added versatility through shadow casting (i.e. I'm dropping evocation, but I can cast almost all spells from the school currently, and all of them once I get Earth Spell).

As jcsw said, I'm already using Master Specialist and Shadowcraft Mage, but thanks for the suggestions anyway. It is a pretty awesome build from what I've seen so far.

I don't really like the fluff for Nightmare Spinner for this character, and the first level doesn't gain any spellcasting, so I'm better off taking another full progression class and gaining 1 spell/level anyway.

I could use Arcane Thesis to reduce the level increase for my Heighten, giving me almost a 1:1 ratio for the level of illusions I can cast to the level of shadow evocations/conjurations I can create through SCM. Earth Spell seems better for that, though. +1 effective spell level for Heighten, and +spell level to caster level.

Edit: see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4853576#13) for the updated character plan.

I think I lose Scribe Scroll from taking the first racial sub level. Hmm...

Sinfire Titan
2008-09-04, 02:21 PM
Alright, so a preliminary character plan:

28 point buy for:

STR 6
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 20
WIS 14
CHA 10

{TABLE]CL|Class|Feats

1|Gnome Illusionist 1|Spellcasting Prodigy (I have background justification! :smalltongue:)
2|Illusionist 2|
3|Illusionist 3|Spell Focus (Illusion)
4|Master Specialist 1|Bonus Feat: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
5|Master Specialist 2|
6|Master Specialist 3|Bonus Feat: Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) <br>Heighten Spell
7|Master Specialist 4|
8|Master Specialist 5|
9|Master Specialist 6|Earth Sense
10|Master Specialist 7|
11|Master Specialist 8|
12|Master Specialist 9|Spell Mastery (Silent Image and other useful spells)
13|Master Specialist 10|
14|Shadowcraft Mage 1|
15|Shadowcraft Mage 2|Signature Spell (Silent Image)
16|Shadowcraft Mage 3|
17|Shadowcraft Mage 4|

[/TABLE]

Dropped schools: Evocation, Conjuration (Shadow casting ftw!)
-1 CL to Transmutation
I like the general look of it. However, I might stick Dimensional Jaunt at 9th level, Spell Mastery at 15th (for Superior Invisibility) and Signature Spell (Superior Invisibility) at 18.

Edit: read the following posts for the switch to Silent Image.

Opinions?

Points to consider:

1: Do not drop Conjuration You will want that. Doesn't matter if you can mimic it, do not drop it unless you are playing a 17th level game and you can pull off the Shadow Miracle trick.
2: SCM should be taken much sooner than 14th. Its 3rd level class feature is just that damn good.
3: I see the setup for Shadow Miracle there, but it is missing Arcane Disciple (Luck domain). If you don't know the trick, don't even think about using it.
4: Exemplars of Evil has a feat that is strictly superior to Signature Spell (two of them, for you). One is Uncanny Forethought, and the other I don't remember the name for, but I can tell you what it does. It allows you to spontaneously convert any of your spell slots into Illusion (Figment) spells at will.
5: Get the Gnome substitution level that makes Silent Image a 0 level spell.
6: I don't see Echo Spell there. Good, this will keep your DM from killing you.
7: May want to look into Focused Specialist in Complete Mage. It is worth the trade, just ban Evocation, Enchantment, and Abjuration or Necromancy. Conjuration is the most powerful school of magic there is, and just being able to mimic some of its spells isn't normally enough.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-09-04, 03:59 PM
Shadow Miracle? What is this?:smallconfused:

Douglas
2008-09-04, 04:05 PM
Take Arcane Disciple (Luck domain). Miracle is now a sor/wiz spell for you.

Take (at least) 3 levels of Shadowcraft Mage, Heighten Spell, and Earth Spell.

Get a 9th level sorcerer or wizard spell slot.

Heighten some image spell to 9th level. Earth Spell boosts it to 10th.

Use your Shadow Illusion ability to convert that 10th level image into a 10th level Shadow Evocation, capable of duplicating any sor/wiz evocation of 9th level or lower.

Pick Miracle as the spell to duplicate.

tyckspoon
2008-09-04, 04:11 PM
4: Heroes of Horror has a feat that is strictly superior to Signature Spell (two of them, for you). One is Uncanny Forethought, and the other I don't remember the name for, but I can tell you what it does. It allows you to spontaneously convert any of your spell slots into Illusion (Figment) spells at will.
.

Wrong book. Uncanny Forethought is in Exemplars of Evil, according to the Big Feat Index at Wizards. I don't know any feat that has that other effect, but whatever it is it's also not in Heroes of Horror.

Sinfire Titan
2008-09-04, 04:19 PM
Wrong book. Uncanny Forethought is in Exemplars of Evil, according to the Big Feat Index at Wizards. I don't know any feat that has that other effect, but whatever it is it's also not in Heroes of Horror.

Fixed. The feat with that second effect is also in Exemplars of Evil.

Qanael
2008-09-05, 12:28 AM
Sinfire Titan:

1. Alright, I won't drop conjuration - I'll probably go for Enchantment then.
2. The campaign starts at 17th level. I'll clarify that in the table post. If I was playing through the whole thing, you're right, I'd take SCM as soon as it was available. As it stands, the order isn't very relevant. I might change it for consistency, though.
3. I know about Shadow Miracle. I'm just not putting my DM through that. :smallbiggrin:
4. Interesting. I'll look those up. Thanks!
Edit: The feat for spontaneous illusions is Proteus. Unfortunately, it only allows you to cast glamers, and SCM's Shadow Illusion requires images (figments). :smallfrown: Also, Uncanny Forethought doesn't specify that it works like cleric spontaneous casting, so my DM might not allow me to Heighten spells cast through it. I'll have to ask him.
5. The first level is the Gnome substitution level. I'll make it clearer.
6. Yup.
7. I've considered it. Still not sure, though.

As always, thanks for the tips and suggestions. I'm in the process of finding ways to run out of money. I like how wizards are already pretty darn powerful without actually buying anything...

ghost_warlock
2008-09-05, 12:51 AM
Sinfire Titan:

1. Alright, I won't drop conjuration - I'll probably go for Enchantment then.
2. The campaign starts at 17th level. I'll clarify that in the table post. If I was playing through the whole thing, you're right, I'd take SCM as soon as it was available. As it stands, the order isn't very relevant. I might change it for consistency, though.
3. I know about Shadow Miracle. I'm just not putting my DM through that. :smallbiggrin:
4. Interesting. I'll look those up. Thanks!
5. The first level is the Gnome substitution level. I'll make it clearer.
6. Yup.
7. I've considered it. Still not sure, though.

As always, thanks for the tips and suggestions. I'm in the process of finding ways to run out of money. I like how wizards are already pretty darn powerful without actually buying anything...

With a gnome illusionist/master specialist progression, you should be able to qualify for shadowcraft mage after your fourth level of master specialist.

Note that, if you go the nightmare spinner route, you really don't need the last two levels as they don't add anything really useful to the character. I usually head into dread witch from Heroes of Horror to boost the fear save DCs, though it will mean dropping another caster level. :smallfrown: Otherwise, fill out more master specialist or, as others have suggested, head into archmage if meet the prereqs.

1. gnome illusionist 1
2. illusionist 2
3. illusionist 3
4. master specialist 1
5. master specialist 2
6. master specialist 3
7. master specialist 4
8. scm 1
9. scm 2
10. scm 3
11. scm 4
12. scm 5
13. nightmare spinner 1
14. nightmare spinner 2
15. nightmare spinner 3
16. whatever
17. whatever

As for cash, yeah, grab a headband of intellect and you're pretty much golden. Good other stuff to look for would be any kind of magic item that can boost your caster level (such as the ioun stone) and metamagic rods...though those are fairly obvious suggestions. :smallsmile:

Sinfire Titan
2008-09-05, 12:52 AM
Sinfire Titan:

1. Alright, I won't drop conjuration - I'll probably go for Enchantment then.

Good man!

2. The campaign starts at 17th level. I'll clarify that in the table post. If I was playing through the whole thing, you're right, I'd take SCM as soon as it was available. As it stands, the order isn't very relevant. I might change it for consistency, though.
Ok, that's understandable.


3. I know about Shadow Miracle. I'm just not putting my DM through that. :smallbiggrin:

What about Echoing Shadow Miracles? Shadow Miracle is broken as is. 24 Shadow Miracles that can be recast up to 192 times a day is uber-broken. Don't use it BTW, I'm just asking if you know about it.

4. Interesting. I'll look those up. Thanks!
Edit: The feat for spontaneous illusions is Proteus. Unfortunately, it only allows you to cast glamers, and SCM's Shadow Illusion requires images (figments). :smallfrown: Also, Uncanny Forethought doesn't specify that it works like cleric spontaneous casting, so my DM might not allow me to Heighten spells cast through it. I'll have to ask him.

You use the Full Round action casting option instead of the normal method, just to be clear. Its the option that makes Uncanny Forethought viable. Proteus just lost value. All of it.


5. The first level is the Gnome substitution level. I'll make it clearer.

0 level Shadow Evocations. There's something I'd never thought I would see.


6. Yup.

And to think I thought Metamagic couldn't be that broken. However thought that was a good idea to print needs to have their head examined. Heavily.


7. I've considered it. Still not sure, though.

As always, thanks for the tips and suggestions. I'm in the process of finding ways to run out of money. I like how wizards are already pretty darn powerful without actually buying anything...

TreantMonklvl20 did a wonderful thread about the benefits of using Focused Specialist over normal or even Generalist Wizards. Search for "Focused Specialist is better than you think" on Gleemax/Boccob (www.google.com), it should be the first hit.

Qanael
2008-09-05, 01:12 AM
Wow, I didn't think you'd be online. Great! :smallbiggrin:

I'm looking at Uncanny Forethought again, and I think I see what you mean - I can cast any spell that I know, therefore I can power the Shadow Illusion with a spell of any level. The problem is, I don't think there's 1 figment spell per spell level, and also, I couldn't use the Heighten Spell + Earth Spell combo to cast 9th level evocations (since it doesn't refer to anything that would allow metamagic). Also, Earth Spell boosts your CL a LOT, while Uncanny Forethough would drop it. To add onto that, Heighten seems very useful for illusions all by itself. I think I'll stick with Signature Spell.

As for Focused Specialist: I'm convinced. I'm changing it around now. I love the drawing of the Lich's spell fizzling out from the focused abjurer. :smallbiggrin:

ghost warlock: I'm not taking Nightmare Spinner due to fluff reasons. There's really not much I can do about that. It's a bit dark for my character concept - I'll be a jolly prankster gnome at heart.

Sinfire Titan
2008-09-05, 01:19 AM
Wow, I didn't think you'd be online. Great! :smallbiggrin:

I'm looking at Uncanny Forethought again, and I think I see what you mean - I can cast any spell that I know, therefore I can power the Shadow Illusion with a spell of any level. The problem is, I don't think there's 1 figment spell per spell level, and also, I couldn't use the Heighten Spell + Earth Spell combo to cast 9th level evocations (since it doesn't refer to anything that would allow metamagic). Also, Earth Spell boosts your CL a LOT, while Uncanny Forethough would drop it. To add onto that, Heighten seems very useful for illusions all by itself. I think I'll stick with Signature Spell.

As for Focused Specialist: I'm convinced. I'm changing it around now.

ghost warlock: I'm not taking Nightmare Spinner due to fluff reasons. There's really not much I can do about that. It's a bit dark for my character concept - I'll be a jolly prankster gnome at heart.

There is a Gnome variant in Dragon Magic that has the Dragonblood subtype. If you take that as your race, you qualify for Rapid Metamagic (which will allow Heighten Spell to be used with Uncanny Forethought). Its another feat you need to take for it, but it blows Signature Spell out of the water (and Uncanny Forethought can be used for every spell in your spellbook to boot, which makes it awesome).

TM20 is a very convincing debater. His God Wizard guides are also rather impressive.

Qanael
2008-09-05, 01:27 AM
There is a Gnome variant in Dragon Magic that has the Dragonblood subtype. If you take that as your race, you qualify for Rapid Metamagic (which will allow Heighten Spell to be used with Uncanny Forethought). Its another feat you need to take for it, but it blows Signature Spell out of the water (and Uncanny Forethought can be used for every spell in your spellbook to boot, which makes it awesome).

TM20 is a very convincing debater. His God Wizard guides are also rather impressive.

I'm looking at the Stonehunter Gnome variant, and, while it would allow me to qualify for Rapid Metamagic, the fluff states that they're not consummate illusionists like their common cousins - this is quite a turnoff, since I do care a lot for my character's background. I don't think I'll take it, but it's a great option if fluff is irrelevant.

Sinfire Titan
2008-09-05, 01:36 AM
I'm looking at the Stonehunter Gnome variant, and, while it would allow me to qualify for Rapid Metamagic, the fluff states that they're not consummate illusionists like their common cousins - this is quite a turnoff, since I do care a lot for my character's background. I don't think I'll take it, but it's a great option if fluff is irrelevant.

Ah, forgot they lost the CL bonus from Gnome. If you've the feats, Dragontouched (or Dragonic template and LA buy-off) then.

Qanael
2008-09-05, 01:46 AM
I could actually fit Dragontouched in, instead of Earth Sense, and change Signature Spell for Uncanny Forethought. However, I'd have to either change Heighten Spell for Rapid Metamagic, or wait a level, and then I'd run out of feats before getting Earth Spell.

As far as LA buyoff goes, I don't think that'll fly with my DM. It's also getting rather complicated for a similar result. I think I'll stick to what I have for now.

Douglas
2008-09-05, 01:49 AM
Uh, why all the trouble to get dragonblooded? Rapid Metamagic (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Rapid_Metamagic) does not require anything but spontaneous casting ability and some spellcraft ranks. Were you thinking of Accelerate Metamagic (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Accelerate_Metamagic), which is utterly pointless if you satisfy the prerequisites for Rapid Metamagic?

Qanael
2008-09-05, 01:53 AM
Hmm. I think the problem is that Uncanny Forethought doesn't specify that it works like cleric spontaneous casting (it does work like that, practically, but it doesn't state it like Signature Spell does), so we were finding ways to allow metamagic to apply. Now that I actually looked at the feats (:smallbiggrin:) I don't see how they would help. :smallfrown: I'll have to discuss it with my DM; I think this is quite open to interpretation, since the level of similarity is (no pun intended) uncanny.

I guess Rapid Metamagic would allow me to use the full-round version of Uncanny Forethought plus metamagic in a single round; however, I don't know if the feat would fill the requirement for the ability to cast spontaneously. Again, open to interpretation; it could work both ways.

The added versatility of Uncanny Forethought compared to Signature Spell helps a lot; however, it wouldn't allow me to cast 9th-level shadow spells if I can't apply Heighten + Earth Spell to the resulting spell.

Qanael
2008-09-05, 10:58 PM
A question: with SCM's 5th level ability, using a Silent Image, Heightened to 9th +1 level from Earth Spell, my Shadow Illusion evocations would be technically 120% real. Does this mean they deal more damage if people disbelieve them? :smalleek:

Edit: Earth Spell and SCM are in the same book...looks like they didn't anticipate this kind of cheese.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-05, 11:00 PM
A question: using a Silent Image, Heightened to 9th +1 level from Earth Spell, my Shadow Illusion evocations would be technically 120% real. Does this mean they deal more damage if people disbelieve them? :smalleek:Legally, yes. As a DM, I'd change the rules on that to be the other way around in that case, but that's just me.

Qanael
2008-09-05, 11:08 PM
Legally, yes. As a DM, I'd change the rules on that to be the other way around in that case, but that's just me.

Yeah, I just asked my DM. He basically said "It can't be more real than the real thing. Don't abuse it." I conceded the point.

He didn't let me have summons with more HP, either. :smallfrown:

Sinfire Titan
2008-09-05, 11:22 PM
Yeah, I just asked my DM. He basically said "It can't be more real than the real thing. Don't abuse it." I conceded the point.

He didn't let me have summons with more HP, either. :smallfrown:

If Dragon Compendium is allowed, there is a feat in there that allows your summons to have max HP/HD (or was it a bonus amount of HP?) at the cost of adding in a material component (25gp of Topaz). Shadow Conjuration bypasses this, and allows you to reap the awesome.

monty
2008-09-05, 11:30 PM
The build I'm currently playing (although I'm playing a changeling with the adaptation rather than a gnome):

Illusionist/Shadowcraft Mage/Incantatrix
Requires the Illusion Mastery variant

{table]Level | Class | Feat
1 | Wizard 1 | Iron Will
2 | Wizard 2
3 | Wizard 3 | Heighten Spell
4 | Wizard 4
5 | Wizard 5
6 | Incantatrix 1 | Spell Focus (Illusion)
7 | Incantatrix 2
8 | Scm 1
9 | Scm 2 | Signature Spell (Silent Image)
10 | Scm 3
11 | Scm 4
12 | Scm 5 | Earth Sense
13 | Incantatrix 3
14 | Incantatrix 4
15 | Incantatrix 5 | Earth Spell
16 | Incantatrix 6
17 | Incantatrix 7
18 | Incantatrix 8 | Arcane Disciple (Luck)
19 | Incantatrix 9
20 | Incantatrix 10[/table]

High-powered enough? If you can use flaws, toss in Easy Metamagic (Heighten) and Residual Magic.

Qanael
2008-09-05, 11:35 PM
While that is a very nice build indeed, I rather like the benefits from Master Specialist, and I'm not planning on Miracle cheese. I considered Incantatrix for a while, but I stuck with MS in the end. What's the Iron Will for?

monty
2008-09-05, 11:38 PM
While that is a very nice build indeed, I rather like the benefits from Master Specialist, and I'm not planning on Miracle cheese. I considered Incantatrix for a while, but I stuck with MS in the end. What's the Iron Will for?

Prerequisite.

If you don't like Miracle cheese, switch the domain to something else (how about Creation? Free Genesis...Oh, and you want to talk about cheese? True Creation.), or put in Easy Metamagic instead.

Qanael
2008-09-05, 11:53 PM
Hmm. I think I'll stick to Master Specialist for now, but thanks for the suggestions. Looking at Incantatrix again, all those Bonus Metamagics sure look tasty...

Lochar
2008-09-06, 09:21 AM
I'll note for you right now, the Master Specialist Major Esoterica only works three times a day.

Qanael
2008-09-06, 11:00 PM
I'll note for you right now, the Master Specialist Major Esoterica only works three times a day.

You're right. I hadn't noticed that. :smallredface:

That Incantatrix build is looking even more attractive now...maybe I'll use it instead. I do like the other bonuses from Master Specialist though, like the improved disbelieve DC and the free Greater School Focus.

Also, if I go for Incantatrix, I'd probably drop Focused Specialist. 4 forbidden schools is a bit much.

Edit: that build is missing Spell Mastery for Signature Spell, though. It'll still fit if you use one of the Incantatrix bonus feats for Heighten.