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Akimbo
2008-09-09, 09:23 AM
So just to be clear, we all do know that no one in the entire universe has ever claimed that Clerics aren't on the same level of broken as Wizards, especially with DMM.

I mean, I could make a DMM Cleric that does about five times as much damager per round as the fighter with a bow. And that pretty much just proves the point that everyone already konws. Also, I'm going to have someone submit a few changes to the spell selection, just let me know.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-09-09, 09:29 AM
Yeah, clerics can be broken too, esp the divine metamagic thingy. But, the cleric in question won't be more effective than the other members of the group in these encounters either.

Allene
2008-09-09, 10:37 AM
So wait a minute, what's the cleric going to look like?

Because this is just ridiculous. If the Cleric is a Cleric 10/Contemplative 10 Polymorphed into an Arrow Demon with Persistent buffs of Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, and the other five spells I can find given time to go through the SpC, Greater Magic Weapon on both the +1 Splitting Bows, ect. Why are we even doing this challenge?

I mean, the Fighter can go stand in a corner, because while he's got an attack routine of 39/39/39/39/34/34/29/29/24/24, for 1d8+21 damage each, the Cleric has an attack routine of 45/45/45/45/45/45/45/45/40/40/40/40/35/35/35/35/30/30/30/30 for 1d8+37 damage.

I mean, no one really claims that Clerics aren't super awesome, I was under the impression that Clerics would not be super cheesed out with DMM Persist.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-09-09, 12:47 PM
You're forgetting a few things:

1) Bonuses from identical effects do not stack. So bonuses from many nightsticks don't stack even if you could hold more than one at a time (see below)

2) You can hold only one nightstick at a time since it's a rod. Say, a cleric with 3 uses of turn undead picks up a nightstick and his uses of turn undead go to 7. He uses DMM persistent and goes to 0. He drops the nightstick, his turn undead uses per day drop back to 3 and picks another one and they go to 7 per day. He still has used 7 that day so he's still empty.

3) You can't polymorph to an arrow demon because outsider isn't one of the available creature types in Polymorph.


Once you remember a few things optimisers conveniently forget, things become a lot more balanced. The nightstick trick doesn't work with more than one nightstick. You can, at most, automatically persist 2 spells.

Eldariel
2008-09-09, 12:57 PM
You can Polymorph Any Object or Shapechange into Arrow Demon though. Or you can pick the Otherworldly-feat or be an LA 0 Outsider (there's at least one in the Planar Handbook). True optimisers don't "conveniently forget" anything, and if they do, abandon the idea when reminded. Optimization is all about doing things by the rules. Nightstick ruling could be made either way. It's been argued enough to know there's no clearcut correct ruling. The best way to handle Nightsticks is to simply not allow non-personal turn attempts to be used for divine feats.

Allene
2008-09-09, 01:07 PM
You're forgetting a few things:

No, I'm not.


1) Bonuses from identical effects do not stack. So bonuses from many nightsticks don't stack even if you could hold more than one at a time (see below)

This has been argued a thousand times, and while I'm perfectly fine with that for the purposes of the challenge (as I am with Arcane Thesis meta rulings) per the RAW, to me it seems to work the other way.


2) You can hold only one nightstick at a time since it's a rod. Say, a cleric with 3 uses of turn undead picks up a nightstick and his uses of turn undead go to 7. He uses DMM persistent and goes to 0. He drops the nightstick, his turn undead uses per day drop back to 3 and picks another one and they go to 7 per day. He still has used 7 that day so he's still empty.

1) You don't have to hold nightsticks. It says nothing about holding them, it says having them in your possession.

2) Uses don't carry over like that. If you have 0, and pick up a rod, you have 4, they don't constantly measure number total minus number used, the only keep track of number total and number current.


3) You can't polymorph to an arrow demon because outsider isn't one of the available creature types in Polymorph.

First of all, you use Polymorph Other because the duration is all day even without Persist, secondly, a Contemplative 10 is by definition outsider, and so allows you to polymorph into outsiders.


Once you remember a few things optimisers conveniently forget, things become a lot more balanced. The nightstick trick doesn't work with more than one nightstick. You can, at most, automatically persist 2 spells.

Thank you for once again expressing your opinion that you are smarter then everyone else and we are all cheaters. Please stop insulting everyone who disagrees with you and implying they are liars.

Douglas
2008-09-09, 01:27 PM
This has been argued a thousand times, and while I'm perfectly fine with that for the purposes of the challenge (as I am with Arcane Thesis meta rulings) per the RAW, to me it seems to work the other way.
Debatable. However, I'm not sure whether abusing that kind of cheese for the NPC builds is really appropriate here.


1) You don't have to hold nightsticks. It says nothing about holding them, it says having them in your possession.
Correct. Having to hold them may be a somewhat common house rule, but being the clear owner is sufficient by RAW.


2) Uses don't carry over like that. If you have 0, and pick up a rod, you have 4, they don't constantly measure number total minus number used, the only keep track of number total and number current.
Yes, they do. This is not specified either way in the RAW to my knowledge, but the official FAQ clarifies it that way. It may also have made it into the Rules Compendium, but I don't have that book available to check right now.


First of all, you use Polymorph Other because the duration is all day even without Persist, secondly, a Contemplative 10 is by definition outsider, and so allows you to polymorph into outsiders.
Polymorph Other is a 3.0 spell. This is a 3.5 challenge.

You are correct about Contemplative, though.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-09, 01:29 PM
FAQ is not RAW!

Seriously people, between Sage, CustServ, and FAQ, the books are the only source that's even slightly consistent for rulings.

And BTW, he meant PAO.

Douglas
2008-09-09, 02:00 PM
In matters where the RAW is unclear, the FAQ is the next best source.

Allene
2008-09-09, 03:41 PM
1) No I don't think that abusing DMM cheese is appropriate for the NPCs in this challenge, which is why I said that it defeats the purpose of the challenge if the Cleric is an Arrow Demon with Persistent buffs.

2) I meant Polymorph Any Object of course. You could try to understand my meaning. Honestly, never played 3.0, only 2ed and 3.5. So as far as I'm concerned Polymorph Other is 2ed.

3) The FAQ, Cust Serv, and Sage have all said different things (though I'm pretty sure Cust Serv has said to one person or another every single possible nightstick ruling and several impossible ones). They are not RAW, and have no clarification or authority whatsoever. The FAQ is not useful for clarifying things, and it has stopped being a useful benchmark for anything when it started making up rules contradictory to the actual text.

I personally just think the Cleric should not use Night Sticks or DMM and this won't be a problem.

Lokey
2008-09-10, 08:48 PM
This one lasted longer than most of them. There actually was something done in game...so I conclude wizard must be ridiculously overpowered. :smallwink:

(Second that the buff list is thoroughly insane. Put that on a commoner 20 then have it go against 4 cr 20 encounters.)

Lochar
2008-09-10, 09:29 PM
This one lasted longer than most of them. There actually was something done in game...so I conclude wizard must be ridiculously overpowered. :smallwink:

(Second that the buff list is thoroughly insane. Put that on a commoner 20 then have it go against 4 cr 20 encounters.)

No, most of them get to the character sheet with buffs listed. Then the DM goes through the buff list, and realizes their specially prepared monster/encounter isn't actually exposing the flaw that the wizard supposedly has, and then disappears.

Ramos' little game went on for about two pages of actual in game encounter, until it devolved into a rule lawyering situation with no end.


Which is actually why I'm hopeful for this, if what I've been reading actually happens where there is a impartial third party actually DMing this, and Belial and the wizard are just basically chess players, moving their own pieces.

Allene
2008-09-10, 10:11 PM
It was moved to this thread here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90458

Currently we are trying to work out appropriate NPCs. I just submitted a suggested spell list, and some equipment changes. Still need a skill monkey role though.

Crow
2008-09-11, 01:46 AM
This one lasted longer than most of them. There actually was something done in game...so I conclude wizard must be ridiculously overpowered. :smallwink:

(Second that the buff list is thoroughly insane. Put that on a commoner 20 then have it go against 4 cr 20 encounters.)

Have something throw down a Disjunction...

Allene
2008-09-11, 02:28 AM
Have something throw down a Disjunction...

Luckily, I'm immune to that.

Douglas
2008-09-11, 01:31 PM
How? If that's what the Spellblade is for, it doesn't work. The chosen spell has to be targeted, not area or effect.