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Prophaniti
2008-09-04, 10:03 AM
Or: How I learned to stop caring and love the art work.:smallwink:

Initial Disclaimer: This is written after flipping through the new FR manual exactly once. This is a statement of first impressions, not of unequivocal facts.

When I started hearing about them "upgrading" FR to 4e, I was extremely skeptical on the matter. Why couldn't they direct their Executive Meddling (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExecutiveMeddling) energies at Ebberon?! When I read some of what they planned on doing, I felt entirely validated for that skepticism. It was just a gratuitous, random, and, I felt, completely unjustified destruction of a setting I've known and loved for a long time, and replacing it with something Strange and Horribly Different wearing its label like a cloak. A cloak made of the flayed hide of my beloved setting.

Then the other day, while going through a bookstore, I chanced upon a copy of the new manual. Being bored and in no real hurry I thought, "What the hell?", picked it up and started flipping though it.

My immediate impression: This is really good work. The art is stunning, imaginative and inspiring. Descriptive ideas and wonderful setting gooey goodness abounded, speaking of the abundance of magic, the unexplored mysteries, etc. I was force to draw parallels between this manual and the 3.5one sitting on my shelf at home. I did not like the taste of some of these comparisons, but being who I am, I forced myself to admit them.

One that stood out immediately was in the descriptions of the various NPCs. In my old FR manual, at least half the entry of nearly every NPC is taken up by stat blocks, detailing in no uncertain terms what that character can and cannot do. In this new one, stat blocks are very conspicuously absent, the space being taken up by explanations of the character's motivations and goals. There are others, but this, to me, was the most glaring and hard to swallow.

It was not all good, though. Reading through the part about how the world of Toril got to where it is 'now' was just as annoying and sickening as reading about it online. The Spellplague? Might've been impressive if we hadn't just had the Time of Troubles, and if Mystra hadn't already died multiple times. Seriously, why wasn't there a Spellplague before?*
*This is rhetorical. I'm sure they came up with an answer, and I'm sure I'll think it's stupid.

I could probably wax eloquent some more about the good and the bad, but I think I'll stop there after hitting those two key features. My Final Impression: It does seem now that they have kept the important parts of my FR intact; The feel of the setting, the atmosphere and so forth, are largely the same to me, and the new artwork in much better than whoever they got to do the last batch. The "historical" changes are still just as grating, but fortunately they're quite easy to deal with. By ignoring them.

I may pick up this manual, which will be the first and likely only 4e book that I would feel good about spending my money on. If I ever have money to spend again, that is. Stupid college fees.:smallmad: True, I will ignore all the changes to the timeline and history, playing my FR games in the good ole' days. However, the descriptiveness, the ambience, the artwork (did I mention that yet?)... All of these are really stellar work, much moreso IMO than the other 4e books so far. At the very least, it will probably have a place on my shelf as eye candy and an idea generator.

How about you, playgrounders? What are your thoughts on the matter of the new Forgotten Realms?

Starbuck_II
2008-09-04, 10:17 AM
.

I may pick up this manual, which will be the first and likely only 4e book that I would feel good about spending my money on. If I ever have money to spend again, that is. Stupid college fees.:smallmad: True, I will ignore all the changes to the timeline and history, playing my FR games in the good ole' days. However, the descriptiveness, the ambience, the artwork (did I mention that yet?)... All of these are really stellar work, much moreso IMO than the other 4e books so far. At the very least, it will probably have a place on my shelf as eye candy and an idea generator.

How about you, playgrounders? What are your thoughts on the matter of the new Forgotten Realms?

College Fees so no have money right now, but I'm interested. I never really was into FR in 3.0/5, but the spellplague sounds interesting.

So I don't know till I actually read it.

Isomenes
2008-09-04, 10:31 AM
Personally, I find FR odious, derivative, and trite, so my position on it hasn't changed--I'm still ignoring the fluff. (From a larger perspective I can't tolerate any of the D&D in-built fluff; some can and that's cool. I far prefer to hand-whip my own.) But, I can and shall treat the FRPG as a new splatbook filled with toys for my amusement.

Though, I haven't read close to every book, so I'm happy to get a different perspective--are there any particular books that stand out among the FR library (http://www.o-love.net/realms/fr_books.html) that you'd recommend as worth the read?

Kurald Galain
2008-09-04, 11:14 AM
But, I can and shall treat the FRPG as a new splatbook filled with toys for my amusement.

If that's what you want, let me point out that the book is about 5% crunch, 95% fluff (as befits the main book to a campaign setting).

EvilRoeSlade
2008-09-04, 11:18 AM
I was under the impression that there wasn't even 5% crunch.

hamishspence
2008-09-04, 11:24 AM
A few items, a few monsters (mostly unique ones, some generic ones) statted out for DMs to use. Thats crunch.

Isomenes
2008-09-04, 11:25 AM
If that's what you want, let me point out that the book is about 5% crunch, 95% fluff (as befits the main book to a campaign setting).

I did say FRPG, which isn't out yet. I'll probably just glance at the FRCS in a bookstore like the OP.

hamishspence
2008-09-04, 11:28 AM
Is player's guide 5% crunch? How do you know if you do not have it? or did you get it early?

Isomenes
2008-09-04, 11:35 AM
Is player's guide 5% crunch? How do you know if you do not have it? or did you get it early?

It's an educated guess given the previews, but I suspect it will be considerably more than 5% crunch. (Then again, it could be like the movie trailers, where 95% of the best parts of the movie are distilled into 5% of the running time and aired to lure moviegoers into the unsuspecting trap.) But honestly, the Swordmage and Channel Divinity feats are enough for me.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-04, 11:43 AM
Is player's guide 5% crunch? How do you know if you do not have it? or did you get it early?

Ah, no. The presently-out campaign guide (which the OP was referring to) is 5% crunch. The upcoming-this-month player's guide will certainly be a lot more than that.

Mark Hall
2008-09-04, 11:45 AM
I could probably wax eloquent some more about the good and the bad, but I think I'll stop there after hitting those two key features. My Final Impression: It does seem now that they have kept the important parts of my FR intact; The feel of the setting, the atmosphere and so forth, are largely the same to me, and the new artwork in much better than whoever they got to do the last batch.

I disagree. To repost my note about it on the Palladium Message Board...

I would like this a lot better if it wasn't called Forgotten Realms.

One of the core ideas behind 4e's Forgotten Realms is that there was a somewhat parallel world, Abeir, to Toril, and that these two worlds collided with great metaphysical violence, with chunks of Toril being replaced by chunks of Abeir. This coincided with a magical plague that altered the face of magic, destroyed large chunks of the landscape, and left many people with magical powers called "spellscars".

If this wasn't the Forgotten Realms, an established world with a large fanbase, that would be really, really cool; in fact, when TSR did it as "Birthright", on the world of Aebrynis and the continent of Cerillia, it was a cool idea, and one that maintains a fan community. Resurrecting "Birthright" would've been very popular with fans of the setting, and would've included many things that they did to the Realms... including magical powers for random people, areas of land that are corrupted by the death of ancient gods, and the growth of vast empires (and many smaller ones).

However, it was done to the Forgotten Realms, and not a resurrection of Birthright, or the creation of a new world. They've killed off large numbers of Toril's deities (including most of the popular and powerful ones; Lathander, Helm, Tyr, Mystra, Azuth, even the good drow goddess, Ellistrae*, and the god of rogue male drow Vhaerun*, are the ones that come to mind). They declared the Blood War, which frequently touched on Abeir-Toril, ended by fiat of an archdevil-turned deity, despite the presence of multiple quasi-deities on both sides for millennia. Thay went from a magocracy to necrocracy. They partially drained the Sea of Fallen Stars (somehow leaving Sembia and Cormyr's seaport towns seaports, while turning the Pirate Isles into the Pirate Isle), re-established Netheril, and destroyed four major "exotic" nations (Lantan, Lurien, Halruaa and Nimbral are all destroyed; Lantan and Lurien by natural disaster, Halruaa and Nimbral under the accumulated might of their magics collapsing... a fate which Netheril, run by quasi-undead wizards, avoided). They redefined the very name of the planet, from Abeir-Toril, which was frequently shortened to Toril, to simply Toril, with Abeir as a never-before-mentioned sister planet.

I can understand the desire to advance the timeline by a hundred years; it kills off many of the mortal NPCs, allowing them a bit more free hand with who is where. And that's going to result in some shifting of political boundaries... that the Ffolk and Northmen started to culturally merge in the Moonshaes was more or less inevitable after the war against The Beast led by Tristan Kendrick. That Amn would annex an island makes sense, and that the Oskabyrr dynasty in Cormyr would grind on is only natural. But that lizardfolk, naga, and yuan-ti would create even a nominal nation together... in the north? That Wheloon would become a city-sized prison because, apparently, all of her inhabitants were followers of Shar? That Sembia would become a vassal state of Netheril? An accumulation of changes like this makes the new version less palatable to fans of the old, an leaves me thinking "This would be a cool idea... if I didn't already like the setting that was in place before they radically changed it."

Of course, you'll say, I can continue to play in the old setting, which is true; the classes of 4e have enough in common with the previous games that you can play 4e in even a pre-Time of Troubles setting. However, that you can do that, easily, is much the point... there was no need to make radical changes in a beloved world in order to play 4e in it. The changes, especially the Spellplague and it's side effects, become "just because", leaving the new material far less useful to those who prefer the old world. Opening a new world, or re-activating one that has many of the features they've included, doesn't alienate old fans.

*I know these were killed off in novels prior to the official launch of 4e; however, if you consider their population, the gods of Faerun have an astonishingly high murder rate.

Prophaniti
2008-09-04, 12:50 PM
Though, I haven't read close to every book, so I'm happy to get a different perspective--are there any particular books that stand out among the FR library (http://www.o-love.net/realms/fr_books.html) that you'd recommend as worth the read?
Well, I haven't read them all either, but pretty much anything by Ed Greenwood or RA Salvatore is going to be worth your time. I also liked the Avatar series, though I haven't read the last one. The Cleric Quintet, one by Salvatore, is really excellent, I recommend it more than the Drizz't series.

EDIT: Oh yes, and the Pools series, that one was good too.

I disagree. To repost my note about it on the Palladium Message Board...

Noted, and understood. Like I said, my writing is based on a first impression from one reading. Likely I will find more I don't like as I get into the details. I was simply surprised to find so much I do like in it, and to see such interesting contrasts with the 3.5 FRCS, that's all.

Mando Knight
2008-09-04, 01:00 PM
One of the core ideas behind 4e's Forgotten Realms is that there was a somewhat parallel world, Abeir, to Toril, and that these two worlds collided with great metaphysical violence, with chunks of Toril being replaced by chunks of Abeir. This coincided with a magical plague that altered the face of magic, destroyed large chunks of the landscape, and left many people with magical powers called "spellscars".

If this wasn't the Forgotten Realms, an established world with a large fanbase, that would be really, really cool;

Just the idea of two parallel worlds colliding made me think of two Earth-like planets smashing into each other, spewing heated rock and annihilating everything that their inhabitants hold dear...

I'm getting the FR PG for the Swordmage, mostly. Anything else that's good that comes with it is a sweet bonus... like buying a Happy Meal for the French Fries, and finding a cheeseburger and a toy in the bag, too.

ZekeArgo
2008-09-04, 01:29 PM
I've honestly never enjoyed the FR setting... it always seemed to me to encompass what Joss Wheaton described as an austere setting, as if every place you go evokes a voice over booming "Behold, for theres was a forbidden city."

I can kind of understand where FR fans are coming from with disliking all of the changes, but heres the thing: what would be the preferable alternative? A static, unchanging environment where elminster and his harem wave their hands and stop everything? Where drizzt *constantly* whines about not being accepted? Big shakeups allow *new* heroes to step into the limelight, which was one of my biggest complaints against FR: there were so many crazy NPCs that there was honestly little justification for lower level ones.

Will probably check out the book, but I'm far more interested to see what happens with the other CSs that will be coming out.

FoE
2008-09-04, 01:38 PM
A static, unchanging environment where elminster and his harem wave their hands and stop everything? Where drizzt *constantly* whines about not being accepted?

Isn't Drizzt still around? He's a drow, after all.

Edea
2008-09-04, 01:40 PM
Meh, put me in the 'give me the Swordmage and the other crunch; you can keep the rest of it' group.

Killersquid
2008-09-04, 01:41 PM
I've honestly never enjoyed the FR setting... it always seemed to me to encompass what Joss Wheaton described as an austere setting, as if every place you go evokes a voice over booming "Behold, for theres was a forbidden city."

I can kind of understand where FR fans are coming from with disliking all of the changes, but heres the thing: what would be the preferable alternative? A static, unchanging environment where elminster and his harem wave their hands and stop everything? Where drizzt *constantly* whines about not being accepted? Big shakeups allow *new* heroes to step into the limelight, which was one of my biggest complaints against FR: there were so many crazy NPCs that there was honestly little justification for lower level ones.

Will probably check out the book, but I'm far more interested to see what happens with the other CSs that will be coming out.

No one likes Elminster, even the FR fans. Anyway, the point of FR was not that PCs did everything. The world had politics, people in it over the 2 decades its been out, and history. I seriously don't get that argument, where the PCs NEED to be the heroes in the game. Most FR haters try to make an argument with that and the Sues in the series, but never actually pull out any good points.

Cristo Meyers
2008-09-04, 02:18 PM
Isn't Drizzt still around? He's a drow, after all.

Pretty sure I saw him the last time I looked through the book yesterday.

'Course, wasn't the rumor that the higher-ups wouldn't let him get killed off?

To me, the damage wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it could've been. But on the other hand, I was under the impression that they were destroying everything and turning FR into some kind of post-magical apololypic setting full of scorched badlands and strange mutated creatures.

Morty
2008-09-04, 02:24 PM
I've honestly never enjoyed the FR setting... it always seemed to me to encompass what Joss Wheaton described as an austere setting, as if every place you go evokes a voice over booming "Behold, for theres was a forbidden city."

I can kind of understand where FR fans are coming from with disliking all of the changes, but heres the thing: what would be the preferable alternative? A static, unchanging environment where elminster and his harem wave their hands and stop everything? Where drizzt *constantly* whines about not being accepted? Big shakeups allow *new* heroes to step into the limelight, which was one of my biggest complaints against FR: there were so many crazy NPCs that there was honestly little justification for lower level ones.

Will probably check out the book, but I'm far more interested to see what happens with the other CSs that will be coming out.

There's a vast gulf between "changes in the setting necessary to avoid stagnation and make ground for different ruleset" and "turning the entire setting upside the head just for the heck of it so it's something entirely different now". I also fail to see how is lots of high-level NPCs an objectively bad thing.
That said, while I like 3ed FR, as non-trendy and uncool it makes me, I'm indifferent towards 4ed FR, because I won't play 4ed anyway, so while the changes are mostly bad, what do I care?

KIDS
2008-09-04, 02:34 PM
I was always very fond of Forgotten Realms so, even while I'm annoyed at the Spellplague forced upon all of us, I'm glad to hear that most of the flavor managed the transition. I'll definitely check it out, thanks for the review!

p.s. before someone tries to classify this as "with us or against us" as it's usual on the forums, I like Eberron and Greyhawk just as well.

Mark Hall
2008-09-04, 03:15 PM
I can kind of understand where FR fans are coming from with disliking all of the changes, but heres the thing: what would be the preferable alternative? A static, unchanging environment where elminster and his harem wave their hands and stop everything? Where drizzt *constantly* whines about not being accepted? Big shakeups allow *new* heroes to step into the limelight, which was one of my biggest complaints against FR: there were so many crazy NPCs that there was honestly little justification for lower level ones.

I would probably have kept them moving the timeline forward 100 years; that allows a removal of most of the previous NPCs, giving the designers a bit freer hand, but removed the Spellplague and most of the deific deaths. I would have ascended Elminster to godhood, as well as Fzoul Chembryl (I liked ascending him; I thought it was appropriate, and it's long past the time that the Dirty Old Mage was forced to assume the mantle of Godhood). I would've kept the system of Zulkirs in Thay but, since there's no more "schools of wizardry", per se, I would've simply made them Epic Wizards who have strong political followings, and are, by tradition, kept at 8.

Really, once you stop killing all the Gods and remove the Spellplague, the rest of the "100 Years Later" steps into line.

Areswargod139
2008-09-04, 03:15 PM
Pretty sure I saw him the last time I looked through the book yesterday.

'Course, wasn't the rumor that the higher-ups wouldn't let him get killed off?

To me, the damage wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it could've been. But on the other hand, I was under the impression that they were destroying everything and turning FR into some kind of post-magical apololypic setting full of scorched badlands and strange mutated creatures.

You have the 4th ed FR book, Cristo? I didn't know that you bought into 4th ed.

Cristo Meyers
2008-09-04, 03:57 PM
You have the 4th ed FR book, Cristo? I didn't know that you bought into 4th ed.

Was at the waldenbooks you got the KoTOR campaign source from, was paging through FR 4th ed since I had nothin better to do

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-04, 03:59 PM
Really, once you stop killing all the Gods and remove the Spellplague, the rest of the "100 Years Later" steps into line.

I would also rename the City of Splendors "Neo-Waterdeep" and have the Church of Gond ride around on clockwork horses :smallcool:

bosssmiley
2008-09-04, 04:16 PM
Much as I'm a Forgotten Realms unappeasable (I hate the omnipresent iconics, but I also dislike the Azerothication of Faerun) I will concede there are a couple of things that the 4E FRCG did right:

Getting rid of the obvious Stargate/Egypt copypaste and replacing it with the ancient, purple-obsessed wizard-kings of Imaskar.
The 2nd Age of Skyfire down in Calimshan. If you're going to have pretendy Arabia you must have genies!
Turning can't get away with nuthin (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitle315nmtwnjpe4?from=Main.CantGetAwayWithNuthin ) Thay into the Forbidden Plateau of Leng
Filling up some of the empty space in the Western Tediumlands
Turning Erlkazar into something other than "You fill it in"
The Aboleth Helicarrier (!!!)

Now, if only Raumathar and Narfell were to make a significant comeback...

Prophaniti
2008-09-04, 09:10 PM
No one likes Elminster, even the FR fans. Anyway, the point of FR was not that PCs did everything. The world had politics, people in it over the 2 decades its been out, and history. I seriously don't get that argument, where the PCs NEED to be the heroes in the game. Most FR haters try to make an argument with that and the Sues in the series, but never actually pull out any good points.

*small voice* I like Elminster...
I'd never include him in a FR campaign though.

Otherwise, I agree with you. FR has never been a setting where the PCs are automatically assumed to be the best of the best, and this is entirely a good thing, IMO. There's always a bigger fish, as they say, and I enjoy campaign settings and games that keep this in mind.

Colmarr
2008-09-04, 09:31 PM
*small voice* I like Elminster...
I'd never include him in a FR campaign though.

Otherwise, I agree with you. FR has never been a setting where the PCs are automatically assumed to be the best of the best, and this is entirely a good thing, IMO. There's always a bigger fish, as they say, and I enjoy campaign settings and games that keep this in mind.

I'm curious. If you never use the bigger fish, what is the point in having them?

And if you do use the bigger fish, how do you stop your campaign revolving around missions that the bigger fish don't want to handle?

My understanding of the problem with NPCs in FR is not that they're "bigger fish"; it's that the PCs are minnows and the NPCs are whales. The "bigger fish" are simply too big.

Prophaniti
2008-09-04, 10:13 PM
I'm curious. If you never use the bigger fish, what is the point in having them?

And if you do use the bigger fish, how do you stop your campaign revolving around missions that the bigger fish don't want to handle?
In the case of Elminster specifically... I more meant I like the character himself, from the novels. On big NPCs in general, they are included for two reasons:
1) To show that your party is not the first ever to be brave enough or skilled enough to set foot out the door and accomplish something.
2) They justify the fact that every major city in the world hasn't been overrun by the myriad monsters with superior stats and abilities than the average human (or elf or dwarf).

How do I stop the campaign from revolving around these "whales"? Through inaction, rather than action. These big-shot NPCs are not involved because I don't want them to be. If, for some reason, the campaign enters territory they are normally "in charge" of, or I need justification for their absence for some reason, it is not difficult at all to come up with it. These are people with lots of responsibilities and/or interests, I'm sure they've got a lot on their plate. Of course, you can include such NPCs in the campaign without giving them the spotlight (unless the party gets lazy and keeps sitting there waiting for them to act [this happened with my group once], in which case I blame the party, not the NPC).

Bottom line, though, is simply intelligent campaign structure. Small-time heroes get small-time jobs. Big-time heroes get big-time jobs.

My understanding of the problem with NPCs in FR is not that they're "bigger fish"; it's that the PCs are minnows and the NPCs are whales. The "bigger fish" are simply too big.That depends on the level of said NPCs. If they're (roughly) level 5 or lower, you bet they're minnows. See above about small-time heroes. There is no reason these people should be in charge of saving the world, should the world need saving (which it doesn't always. Impending Armageddon is such an overdone plot device.)

Once they get to higher levels, the difference is much less pronounced, if it is there at all. Most of the statted NPCs in FR are lvl 15 or lower, only a few big names get to be epic.

Many people ask "why don't the NPCs handle X?" about FR. Really a better question is "why do the PCs need to handle X?". If you can answer that, then you're on the right track. I've never had trouble coming up with a decent in-game reason to justify the fact that I do indeed want the PCs to handle it, not Elminster. It doesn't require any more effort than coming up with "X" in the first place.

EvilElitest
2008-09-04, 10:28 PM
I've honestly never enjoyed the FR setting... it always seemed to me to encompass what Joss Wheaton described as an austere setting, as if every place you go evokes a voice over booming "Behold, for theres was a forbidden city."

I can kind of understand where FR fans are coming from with disliking all of the changes, but heres the thing: what would be the preferable alternative?


Hating FR seems to be a fad now adays. And it is much like cultural xenphobia actually, because most haters don't even understand what they are hating, because they are basing it only off sterotypes and vague impressions rather than any actual fault of the setting, or because hating FR is what the cool kids are diong

Anyways, weather you like FR or not, violating a setting is wrong. Imagine if this was done to Ebberon. Really, actually try to empathize with people here, imagine if a setting you liked was ruined due an excessive use of exucative meddling and a massive series of recones


A static, unchanging environment where elminster and his harem wave their hands and stop everything? Where drizzt *constantly* whines about not being accepted? Big shakeups allow *new* heroes to step into the limelight, which was one of my biggest complaints against FR: there were so many crazy NPCs that there was honestly little justification for lower level ones.
This doesn't make sense, there is really, nothing, absolutely nothing that justifies your statements. Old FR was perfectly fine in allowing new heros to come onto the stage. Just like your complaint, it is based off a sterotype, and unfounded one without backing.

Answer this
1) In the FR setting books, is there anything forcing you to make hte Eliminster and Drizzt and what not the center of every game. Really, find me a section, because both of those characters hang out in their own respetive regions.
2) Is there anything that keeps PCs from becoming powerful. Really, anything in the setting that pervents this
3) How does the setting make things useless for Low level players? Really prove it



OP, read the 3E FR setting. This one only a portion of the fluff and is so reconned that it has violated most of the old elements of the game
from
EE

Isomenes
2008-09-04, 10:37 PM
EE, I think the problem is that it's silly to have too much invested in a setting. It's fic. It's not even proper fiction; it's just people writing what-ifs and riffing on their pet concepts and themes. And that's fine, but there's no point in getting bent out of shape just because something you held to be a certain way no longer is. It's just fic. You go with what is. And I suppose if you are dissatisfied enough, and if enough people agree with your dissatisfaction, you can fork the fandom.

It'd be neat to see an "alternate" FR produced by those who are minded to do so, but the new terms are rather prohibitive. Alas.

EvilElitest
2008-09-04, 10:39 PM
EE, I think the problem is that it's silly to have too much invested in a setting. It's fic. It's not even proper fiction; it's just people writing what-ifs and riffing on their pet concepts and themes. And that's fine, but there's no point in getting bent out of shape just because something you held to be a certain way no longer is. It's just fic. You go with what is. And I suppose if you are dissatisfied enough, and if enough people agree with your dissatisfaction, you can fork the fandom.

It'd be neat to see an "alternate" FR produced by those who are minded to do so, but the new terms are rather prohibitive. Alas.

1) a setting is like a movie, a tv series, an RPG game, a book. In fact, it is normally worst to rip off than a normal book series because of the world building elements. There is a difference between "change is bad' arguments and "this is a bloody recon argument
2) It isn't an alternatite world however, its a new bloody deal
3) and ignoring that, even as a new setting it is just badly handled.


Its odd through, i got sent the book for free
from
EE

ZekeArgo
2008-09-04, 10:54 PM
{Scrubbed}

Killersquid
2008-09-04, 11:36 PM
Getting rid of the obvious Stargate/Egypt copypaste

The empires which take after their real life counterparts are meant to be like that. Portals opened to Earth, Egyptians walked through, their gods needed worshipers and moved there. They are an alien pantheon for a reason:smallwink:

I do agree I hate the omnipresent icons, but its tolerable.

Killersquid
2008-09-04, 11:40 PM
It'd be neat to see an "alternate" FR produced by those who are minded to do so, but the new terms are rather prohibitive. Alas.

Its been started, its the Realms Vault, its on a shaky start. (shamelessful plug (http://forgottenrealmsvault.com).)

bosssmiley
2008-09-05, 03:41 AM
Imagine if this was done to Eberron. Really, actually try to empathize with people here, imagine if a setting you liked was ruined due an excessive use of executive meddling and a massive series of retcons

And nothing of value was lost. :smalltongue:

You do realise that Eberron already has a 'perpetual retcons get-out clause' written in, don't you? The 'Magic makes Xendrik Unmappable' and 'Madness of Crowds' elements from "Secrets of Xendrik" (oh look, Rich Baker) is nothing but a license to smash the setting update the setting for a contemporary audience at any time.

semi-related: I'm waiting fror the jihad of nerd-rage when WOTC announces their newer, cooler Greyhawk campaign book. Blood will run in the streets that day. :smallamused:

Kaihaku
2008-09-05, 04:20 AM
First, let me say that Forgotten Realms isn't my cup of tea.

That said, the conversion from 3.5 Realms to 4e Realms was, in my opinion, horribly and terribly mangled. It's nice that the new manual is polished and has nice artwork but presentation is far from everything. Faerun should have been converted without the massive amount of arbitrary destruction; if magic needed to be weakened, there were plenty of other ways to accomplish it. If they were trying to trim down Forgotten Realms, which has more material than any other setting I can think of, they made a grievous error. Thematically, the only thing Faerun has that is unique is that you can do anything; it's appeal is in that it has more material than any other fantasy setting. Faerun doesn't have a single coherent theme or feel, trying to 'purify' the setting won't work because there's nothing to purify to. The appeal of Faerun is that you can do anything that you can do in another setting. Thematics be damned. You want to rip off of Stargate? Go for it. You want to relive the days of Cortez? Why not? You want to journey to the center of the earth battling buxom but absolutely evil black spider women? Kinky. You want to travel to an asteroid off in space and fight Clt...tentacle monsters? Won't interfere with anything else! Forgotten Realms supports the theft of any enemy or scenario, that's the secret of it's charm. It's the ultimate throw anything ever at your players because, hey, what's one more deity or near-omnipotent character? You couldn't do that in, say, Dragonlance and preserve the 'feel' and theme of the setting. In Forgotten Realms you can do whatever, whenever, however...or rather you could. I think Faerun was butchered because 4e couldn't support it as it was and because of some really stupid arbitrary decisions that were suppose to make the setting more new player friendly. I find that distressing. Yes, the new sourcebooks are nicely designed and have good pictures (On a very positive note, not all of the women look like whores! It's about time, thank you for that at least!) but they don't support the same range of options. Every class is different in the same way. It looks like it might carry over to every setting is different in the same way, I sincerely hope not. The mistake here is assuming that a more "user friendly" Forgotten Realms will bring in new players. No. Games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights (I guess there really can't be a third edition to that series anymore, now can there?) bring in new players for Forgotten Realms. Not removing Thay (Which along with Halaster was one of the few elements of Forgotten Realms I actually appreciated) and replacing it with yet another undead horde. Undead hordes are not unique. There are far too many of them. There aren't nearly as many scheming slaving magocracies.

Were they thinking...

"Cool." Says Bob, who picked up the Forgotten Realms Manual randomly at the bookstore one day and was immediately converted, "It's an undead horde lead by a Lich, I know how to take down one of those. This is a game I definitely want to play. I wonder if I can find a group in my local area."

Long-term Forgotten Realms fans rejoice!

As opposed to...

"#%&@#%&#@!!!!!!!" exclaims the horde of long-term Forgotten Realms fans.

"Uh... That's the...roleplaying section..." Bob whispers nervously, "My pastor told me those books were evil."

nagora
2008-09-05, 04:46 AM
Anyways, weather you like FR or not, violating a setting is wrong. Imagine if this was done to Ebberon. Really, actually try to empathize with people here, imagine if a setting you liked was ruined due an excessive use of exucative meddling and a massive series of recones.Do you remember what TSR did to Greyhawk to spite Gygax?

Making a mess of an established setting is just something talentless people do in faceless corporations focused on appealing only to kids with disposable income. It's just marketing - that's why they spend all that money on nice art and skip the playtesting. If you're looking for teams of motivated creators lovingly crafting a unique and viable world no matter how long it takes, then you need to learn to not look to companies like Hasbro to do it.

Go to their website and look at the products (http://www.hasbro.com/default.cfm?page=brands) they are selling billions of dollars worth of every year - sophistication is not a characteristic of their product lines. Even the few classic games they still produce are pretty simple, eg, Risk and Monopoly. They don't care about people like you for simple, logical, sensible, depressing reasons.

Kaihaku
2008-09-05, 04:51 AM
And all of those are reasons that I'm so pleased with the Open Source movement picking up momentum. :smallsmile:

Kurald Galain
2008-09-05, 04:59 AM
Do you remember what TSR did to Greyhawk to spite Gygax?

Frankly, no, but I'd be interested in hearing it.

OneFamiliarFace
2008-09-05, 05:11 AM
Were they thinking...

"Cool." Says Bob, who picked up the Forgotten Realms Manual randomly at the bookstore one day and was immediately converted, "It's an undead horde lead by a Lich, I know how to take down one of those. This is a game I definitely want to play. I wonder if I can find a group in my local area."

Long-term Forgotten Realms fans rejoice!

As opposed to...

"#%&@#%&#@!!!!!!!" exclaims the horde of long-term Forgotten Realms fans.

"Uh... That's the...roleplaying section..." Bob whispers nervously, "My pastor told me those books were evil."

I'm sure they were thinking about new audiences, because they know fools like us will buy anything. :smalltongue: Well, except me, as I've yet to get a campaign setting or anything more than a $3 pre-made module.

So, you forgot a crowd: the type who loves the fluff, but needs it more concise to warrant a book purchase. As big as FR was, I often felt I could have gotten more ideas from their novels than from the DnD books themselves, which were quite daunting to look at purchasing in their entirety. I am a little biased, as out of all my gaming groups, I think one person I met owned the 3.5 FR player's guide.

Still, yeah, I kind of think a setting should feel itself beholden to the people who have loved it for so many years. Especially since, if you are going to alienate the original fans, then you may as well just come out with a new setting and not release a new FR at all.

Kaihaku
2008-09-05, 05:21 AM
Whoa, a neighbor in Thailand.

I identify with that crowd, I just always associated them with settings like Dragonlance and never with Forgotten Realms. Then, I've never read any of Forgotten Realms novels while I have read some of the Dragonlance books. Do you feel that 4e is catering more to that particular group? With all of the deities and big-wig characters significantly altered in the conversion I was thinking not... I'd been looking at the alterations as more new player friendly than roleplaying-oriented game friendly.

I would agree. I think they would have been better served using a new setting for the new Dungeons and Dragons. Or making the default Eberron.

bosssmiley
2008-09-05, 05:36 AM
Frankly, no, but I'd be interested in hearing it.

I think he might be referring to "From the Ashes" by Carl Sergeant. It was ok. It changed just enough of the setting to remove duplication (did we ever really need Yeomanry, Geoff, Sterich and Grand March) and helped to remind people why they liked Greyhawk in the first place. It certainly didn't re-draw chunks of the map by airdropping new countries into place or popping the lid off the Underdark. :smallamused:

That's pretty small beer considering what EGG did to Oerth in his own "Gord the Rogue" series:
He destroyed it outright. How's that for poisoning the well? :smallamused:

Mando Knight
2008-09-05, 10:46 AM
Even the few classic games they still produce are pretty simple, eg, Risk

I never thought I'd hear "simple" and "Risk" in the same sentence, much less within two words of each other and without negation...

nagora
2008-09-05, 11:11 AM
I never thought I'd hear "simple" and "Risk" in the same sentence, much less within two words of each other and without negation...

We are talking about the same Risk here, aren't we? The one where you roll three red dice and two blue dice? The simplest widely played wargame in the world? I'm not knocking it, but it is a very simple game.

As to Greyhawk: I think "Castle Greyhawk" is generally regarded as the worst module TSR ever released and the From the Ashes (AKA "From the Asses") removed everything interesting about the setting and converted it to as trite "Big Bad Guys versus Big Good Guys" setting totally lacking in any sense of realism. Whereas the original GH could be played in many different styles, FtA commited DMs to one particular, and very hackneyed, post-apocalyptic borathon with no recognisable traits held over from the original except for some names.

As someone else mentioned, the canonical Greyhawk came to an end when Tharizdun was freed.

ZekeArgo
2008-09-05, 11:37 AM
We are talking about the same Risk here, aren't we? The one where you roll three red dice and two blue dice? The simplest widely played wargame in the world? I'm not knocking it, but it is a very simple game.

Wrong risk I believe, the one he's thinking of is a world domination strategy boardgame.

Edit: Wiki'ed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_game)

Edit Edit: Ah, you meant the boardgame as well, thought you meant some other, boardless dice game ^_^

It's been ages since I've even played risk, a little rusty.

Yakk
2008-09-05, 12:27 PM
The old fluff still exists. The existing writers are not the old writers. They don't intend on writing stuff at the density they did in the past, putting out a few high-quality books instead of reams of low-sales copy.

So instead of spending a huge amount of effort updating fluff, they wrote new fluff that uses the old fluff as a back story. You can ignore the new fluff all you want -- just because WotC updated FR in one way, doesn't mean your DM has to.

You can, and should, pick and choose the stuff that fits the campaign you want to play.

I do understand the nerd-rage -- people spend a huge amount of effort building a head-space containing these worlds, and place lots of stake in the details of them. It's a weaker relative of the Asperger's monomaniacal obsessions with a particular topic (or not, in some cases).

Kaihaku
2008-09-05, 06:49 PM
So instead of spending a huge amount of effort updating fluff, they wrote new fluff that uses the old fluff as a back story. You can ignore the new fluff all you want -- just because WotC updated FR in one way, doesn't mean your DM has to.

You can, and should, pick and choose the stuff that fits the campaign you want to play.

What is and is not considered canon matters to a surprisingly large number of people. I'm not a Realms fan but I was once a Star Wars fan and I have a hard time enjoying even the old material anymore because of the ways the new 'fluff' changed the old 'fluff'. Back to the Realms, let's pretend that they didn't kill off all those deities and pretend that society they said never existed still exists? It sounds easy but for many people who like a sense of coherent continuity...oh right, Forgotten Realms... Nevermind.

EvilElitest
2008-09-05, 11:07 PM
First, let me say that Forgotten Realms isn't my cup of tea.

That said, the conversion from 3.5 Realms to 4e Realms was, in my opinion,

Thank you. you don't have to like FR to see a problem with Reconn


horribly and terribly mangled. It's nice that the new manual is polished and has nice artwork but presentation is far from everything.
Tell that to WOTC, all of these new products rely on presentation over content


Faerun should have been converted without the massive amount of arbitrary destruction; if magic needed to be weakened, there were plenty of other ways to accomplish it. If they were trying to trim down Forgotten Realms, which has more material than any other setting I can think of, they made a grievous error. Thematically, the only thing Faerun has that is unique is that you can do anything; it's appeal is in that it has more material than any other fantasy setting. Faerun doesn't have a single coherent theme or feel, trying to 'purify' the setting won't work because there's nothing to purify to. The appeal of Faerun is that you can do anything that you can do in another setting. Thematics be damned. You want to rip off of Stargate? Go for it. You want to relive the days of Cortez? Why not? You want to journey to the center of the earth battling buxom but absolutely evil black spider women? Kinky. You want to travel to an asteroid off in space and fight Clt...tentacle monsters? Won't interfere with anything else! Forgotten Realms supports the theft of any enemy or scenario, that's the secret of it's charm. It's the ultimate throw anything ever at your players because, hey, what's one more deity or near-omnipotent character? You couldn't do that in, say, Dragonlance and preserve the 'feel' and theme of the setting. In Forgotten Realms you can do whatever, whenever, however...or rather you could.

Thank you. FR is a wonderful default setting. I can see why people don't like it (through others seem to hate it out of a strange fad) its diffacult to run and is very high magic, but it is still a great setting because of the massive amount of options. It is totally unsuited to 4E's seeming hated of complexity and options.

two other points

1) I don't dislike change in FR. The Time of Troubles was a great way to make way for a new edition, because they made it seem natural and logical. This one just feels like reconn, because it is so forced.
2) Also, they simply destroyed everything in their effort to break the system until it appeassed it. I mean, the whole 100 years in the future thing.




I think Faerun was butchered because 4e couldn't support it as it was and because of some really stupid arbitrary decisions that were suppose to make the setting more new player friendly. I find that distressing.
4E's decision to take over FR is basically so it can say "hey look, we have the most popular setting" more than actual caring about their game. But its quite clear that WOTC doesn't care about the game very much anyways


Yes, the new sourcebooks are nicely designed and have good pictures (On a very positive note, not all of the women look like whores! It's about time, thank you for that at least!)
see Taya, someone does agree with me


but they don't support the same range of options. Every class is different in the same way. It looks like it might carry over to every setting is different in the same way, I sincerely hope not. The mistake here is assuming that a more "user friendly" Forgotten Realms will bring in new players. No. Games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights (I guess there really can't be a third edition to that series anymore, now can there?) bring in new players for Forgotten Realms. Not removing Thay (Which along with Halaster was one of the few elements of Forgotten Realms I actually appreciated) and replacing it with yet another undead horde. Undead hordes are not unique. There are far too many of them. There aren't nearly as many scheming slaving magocracies.

QFT


Were they thinking...
Here is what they were thinking. They wanted to make money. Most of 4E is simply appealing to popular conception of D&D through simplification than actual content. They wanted to make a pretty face for their product so they could make more money, FR will bring the most consumers because of its appeal, so its teh best choice


i just hope that the other settings (planescape) don't suffer this fate when 4E remakes them. They might actually be worth buying

Bosssmilly, can you explain again. I don't own many ebberon bookk


How did Greyhawk get ruined? i've never played that setting sadly

from
EE

Crow
2008-09-05, 11:12 PM
Hopefully we'll get a new video game out of it at least. The "quick" spellbook in NWN2 would be perfect for powers. I will be pissed though if I can't select one of my at-wills to be my "basic" click and attack. Having to always select your eldritch blast as a warlock just sucked ball.

nagora
2008-09-06, 06:22 AM
How did Greyhawk get ruined?
Undead hordes again *sigh*. If an idea's lazy and stupid once, it's lazy and stupid the next hundred times.

Starshade
2008-09-06, 07:55 AM
Time passes, and FR is a old gameworld, what is complained on, is cleaning out enough old content from the world to not baffle new gamers. FR reminds of some of the old comics worlds, who sometime had simmiliar retcons too. As goldenage, and silverage superman. or the new marvel retcon.

Im about neutral, i see both sides, both the dismay about loosing decades of stories, and the joy of a refreshed gameworld without 2-3 generations of lore noone knows origin of.

nagora
2008-09-06, 08:13 AM
Time passes, and FR is a old gameworld, what is complained on, is cleaning out enough old content from the world to not baffle new gamers. FR reminds of some of the old comics worlds, who sometime had simmiliar retcons too. As goldenage, and silverage superman. or the new marvel retcon.
That's an interesting point. While, for example, I can understand retconning Iron Man's origin so that it no longer implies that he's about 90 years old, I think retconning generally is a sign that the writer has no ideas of his/her own (hello, Gareth Ennis) and has to take some of someone else's and mix it around instead of having the guts or talent to start off from scratch with their own characters or setting (did I mention Gareth Ennis? Good).

Kaihaku
2008-09-06, 07:04 PM
I've been reading Dragon 366... That and Dragon whatever number...


Bruce Cordell: At first glance, the century leap forward is the most shocking part of the new Forgotten Realms setting. it is a jaw-dropping change. But it wasn’t a decision made lightly. in fact, it was felt something drastic had to happen in order to breathe new life into a shared world whose well-trampled edges were quickly approaching. many believed that if something bold wasn’t done to expand the canvas, the world would begin to die beneath its own extensive history of novels and game products.

Actually, the jumping forward in time one-century didn't bother me at all. It's a change that I actually support. The problem isn't that they moved 100 years forward, it's that what they did in that 100 years doesn't make any sense and ruins much more than it creates. Also, really, if Forgotten Realms was going to die beneath it's own weight, wouldn't that have happened already? It's one of the oldest active settings out there and it seems to have been doing just fine.


BRC: They were long meetings followed by long writing sessions to create drafts of what we’d just discussed, followed by more meetings. We talked about every realm, great and small, including the cosmology. Indeed,
the cosmology we settled on as one that would work best for Forgotten Realms was the cosmology that the D&D core rules itself accepted—excluding the particular deities, of course.

Yes, excluding a great number of them. Huh, so they openly admit that they screwed the Realms cosmology to make it work for the "core rules".

Then...yes...they list the "Core Ideals of Forgotten Realms"?


1. it’s exactly what it says it is: a world of ancient
realms to explore and discover.


2. it’s a thousand stories, all happening at once.


3. it’s a place where your character can be the most
important person in the world or die in anonymity.


4. it’s a fully realized world, full of history and
legend.


5. it’s a vibrant, ever-changing world that is constantly
moving forward.


6. it’s core D&D “plus.”


7. it’s contemporary fantasy.


8. it’s 50% all new.


9. We’re not retconning. We’re assuming that
everything that was, was.

*cough*

Tptking
2008-09-06, 11:17 PM
I've just sat and read all of the posts....I had a lot of free time....and I can see both sides of things. I am a FR fan. I've read most of the books, the group I'm in plays in FR all the time, and I like it. I like Elminster. Yes, he's a "whale" in the "ocean", but every world needs those. I always used NPCs like him as my PC's hero, or idol. Those guys are the stories that adventurers grow up on. All this is said from a role-playing stand point. From a game mechanics stand point, the "whales" are the guys who get others to do things they don't have time to do themselves. Why don't they do everything themselves, cause they've got more important things to do.

I'm not a supporter of the new changes. It would've been fine the way it was, with maybe a few tweaks. Huge changes like this is one reason why I don't play Dragonlance, which is one of my all time fav novel series. Every time you turn around, everything's all different. It actually reminds me of DL alot in that since. Something happened, and now all the Gods are gone, or most of them are, or they're back, or something. Also, why kill off most of the top layer of Gods, now you just gotta replace them with another one.

I know WotC is there to make money. They are a business, but obviously not too smart of one. Why risk alienating existing customers, who'd spent thousands on this series, just to possibly entice new customers? If FR was about to die, it was gonna drop dead suddenly from a massive heart attack, not die from old age. FR is one of the oldest and most documented settings in D&D, and now, a lot of that info is suddenly non-existent. What happened to it? Did it never exist, or did everybody suddenly forget about it? Advancing 100 years, ok, no problem. That actually works for me. New players can jump in, and don't have to know all the daunting history....though it does make it more interesting, IMO. If I wanted a world with limited history, and few powerful NPCs, why do I need to pay $30-$35/book for it. I can create that myself in a few hours. I'll look it over, it's not all bad, but it could've been done without the complete head-over-heels flip.

Gorbash
2008-09-06, 11:42 PM
Aside from names of couple of characters and countries, this "Faerun" doesn't have much to do with previous one. They changed everything that made Faerun Faerun. No planes as we know it. Endless Blood war ended. Others made good points too, but the bolded one is the most important one.
For me, I'll just pretend it never happened, the same as I regard the whole of 4e. One thing that pissed me off the most is, most of all since I can't ignore:

All the characters we loved (Elminster and Drizzt excluded) just died. I really enjoyed whole of the Erevis Cale series, but even if there was going to be a new trilogy after Shadow Wars it's going to be something I'd rather not read. I'm sure there are a bunch of other series that people enjoyed that have been, well, killed with 4e.

So, no I don't have a problem with FR 4e. It unfortunately means I won't read another FR book ever. Unless some brave author starts publishing his books without Wotc under 3.5, since Wotc is as we know, enforcing 4e, so that won't happen... I guess I'll just start reading every single FR (3.5) novel there is, seeing that now there's a finite number of them.

EvilElitest
2008-09-07, 04:48 PM
I've just sat and read all of the posts....I had a lot of free time....and I can see both sides of things. I am a FR fan. I've read most of the books, the group I'm in plays in FR all the time,

horray. FR is great setting. It is all about options and different ideas. Wonderful default


and I like it. I like Elminster. Yes, he's a "whale" in the "ocean", but every world needs those. I always used NPCs like him as my PC's hero, or idol. Those guys are the stories that adventurers grow up on. All this is said from a role-playing stand point. From a game mechanics stand point, the "whales" are the guys who get others to do things they don't have time to do themselves. Why don't they do everything themselves, cause they've got more important things to do.
Meh, i don't like Eliminster. I admit his role is right, but he doesn't fill it properly. He is a total mary sue and every one of his books is awful. The role of a super NPC wizard is fine, but he doesn't fill it well. I would have prefered Black Staff or Belgarith type people.


I'm not a supporter of the new changes. It would've been fine the way it was, with maybe a few tweaks. Huge changes like this is one reason why I don't play Dragonlance, which is one of my all time fav novel series. Every time you turn around, everything's all different. It actually reminds me of DL alot in that since. Something happened, and now all the Gods are gone, or most of them are, or they're back, or something. Also, why kill off most of the top layer of Gods, now you just gotta replace them with another one.

I don't mind changes in a setting, but they have to feel natural. The time of troubles was a great and well done change in the setting, because it wasn't handled like a recon but instead a major event




I know WotC is there to make money. They are a business, but obviously not too smart of one. Why risk alienating existing customers, who'd spent thousands on this series, just to possibly entice new customers? If FR was about to die, it was gonna drop dead suddenly from a massive heart attack, not die from old age. FR is one of the oldest and most documented settings in D&D, and now, a lot of that info is suddenly non-existent. What happened to it? Did it never exist, or did everybody suddenly forget about it? Advancing 100 years, ok, no problem. That actually works for me. New players can jump in, and don't have to know all the daunting history....though it does make it more interesting, IMO. If I wanted a world with limited history, and few powerful NPCs, why do I need to pay $30-$35/book for it. I can create that myself in a few hours. I'll look it over, it's not all bad, but it could've been done without the complete head-over-heels flip.

I don't think they are so much stupid as apathetic. They simply don't care. They don't respect FR because as their business style and design of 4E clearly shows, they don't appeal to that style of play.
from
EE

Shadow_Elf
2008-09-07, 06:57 PM
The posts here are massive, so I haven't gone through it all, but here's my two bits. Hope no one has already said this.

Come March, having finished Orc King, last in the Legend of Drizzt series, I found myself looking forward to the book mentioned in Orc King scheduled to come out in October. I also found myself anticipating 4e, as I had always thought 3.x was too complicated. I find myself now wishin 4e had waited a while or R.A. Salvatore had written faster. I do no look forward to a Drizzt set in the post-Spellplague FR. I'm sure that 100 years will kill off many a main character. With the possible exception of Cattie-Brie, all of Drizzt's companions will be dead. It mentioned somewhere I read that Spirit Soaring has been torn down. It was supposed to be an eternal legacy of Deneir. So much for "eternal" as it lasted less than a century, probably less than 50 years. I found I liked the concept of Drow on the surface serving Ellistraiee. Hard to serve a benevolent drow goddess when she's dead.

All in all: I'm sure the new FR is great for D&D, but I think it was horrible to impose the changes of the game on the books that some of us enjoy independantly of D&D.

EvilElitest
2008-09-07, 07:16 PM
hey another drizzt fan.


Sadly, i think that considering 4E's policy of "we don't respect our material so bleep you" i don't think drizzt will do well. True, RA salvator doesn't own the rights to the Drizzt character, so he isn't allowed to kill him off so this isn't totally 4E's fault.

Oh have you read the Demon Wars trilogy. RA salvator's own world
from
EE

Shadow_Elf
2008-09-07, 08:13 PM
hey another drizzt fan.


Sadly, i think that considering 4E's policy of "we don't respect our material so bleep you" i don't think drizzt will do well. True, RA salvator doesn't own the rights to the Drizzt character, so he isn't allowed to kill him off so this isn't totally 4E's fault.

Oh have you read the Demon Wars trilogy. RA salvator's own world
from
EE

Haven't read Demon Wars, but I have read the Crimson Shadow and the Highwayman. I have to say I liked Drizzt more. And the Cleric Quintet too.

EDIT: added spoiler. Sorry if i ruined Orc King for n e one. My apologies... You may have noticed me except Catti-Brie from the list of assuredly dead teammates. This is due to her being taught be Allustriel (who is immortal) in the ways of magic, and from evidence by Jack the Gnome's (who was immortal through rocking at magic) case would suggest that she may have tapped the Weave for a measure of longevity. That's my theory anywho.

EvilElitest
2008-09-07, 10:13 PM
Haven't read Demon Wars, but I have read the Crimson Shadow and the Highwayman. I have to say I liked Drizzt more. And the Cleric Quintet too. You may have noticed me except Catti-Brie from the list of assuredly dead teammates. This is due to her being taught be Allustriel (who is immortal) in the ways of magic, and from evidence by Jack the Gnome's (who was immortal through rocking at magic) case would suggest that she may have tapped the Weave for a measure of longevity. That's my theory anywho.

1) Crimson shadow is his first work, and i agree, Drizzt is much better
2) Highwayman is in the same world as Demon words, but it was written after wars (so it is better to read it after you've read the other ones) and even then, your right that isn't as good as drizzt
3) The cleric Quintet was good in the start. Book 1 and 2 were wonderful. Book 3 was only so so, and book 4 was painful. However it did end on a very strong note, with book 5 being the best of the lot. Even that isn't as good as drizzt
4) While Demon wars isn't good as the first Drizzt, i think Drizzt is losing steam. RA salvator isn't David eddings, he can't keep doing the same thing. He needs to move on, which is good. Sadly, FR isn't allowing him too but hey
5) 4E doesn't care about consitency dude. If they want Drizzt and his friend in the new FR, they will get them there, no matter how many pre existing rules they have to brake in the process
from
EE

Mark Hall
2008-09-07, 10:49 PM
Again, reposted (slightly edited) from the Palladium Message Boards:

Forgotten Realms 4e is a bad FR product. It makes radical changes for the sake of radical changes, and culminates the mass deicide that WotC's FR planners have been pushing for a while. It contains several illogical changes, as well, such as the Sea of Fallen Stars draining into the Glimmersea... but somehow not significantly changing in coastline. It radically redefines even the name of the planet itself, to say nothing of the cosmology and humanoid geography.

Y'all've liked saying "It's their property, so whatever they say is that property, is that property." I believe the famous example was **** smeared on a paper; I'm not calling 4e FR that. In a legal sense, it is true that whatever they call Forgotten Realms is Forgotten Realms. However, in a narrative sense, it is not. If you significantly change a property to the point where there's little in common between version A and version B, it ceases to maintain coherence within the product; those familiar with the older version have little to nothing to latch on to in the newer version, because it is not the same world, even if it is the same brand name.

Was New Coke Coke? Legally, yes it was. It was produced by the Coca-Cola company under the name of Coke, just as the previous version of Coke had been. It completely changed Coke... but it was so radically different that it had ceased to have the same flavor as had been expected from Coke. People protested New Coke because it wasn't Coke... it was Coke trying to be something else, while trying to cash in on the brand name of Coke. I see 4e FR in a similar fashion. It is FR trying to be something else, yet maintain the brand name.