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Zeful
2008-09-04, 07:50 PM
I'm curious about something that everyone seems to know but no one explains. Why are Divinations considered so powerful. I understand the "Knowledge is power" thing but how do spells like Scry and Contact other Plane turn an ordinary wizard into Batman? I mean scry can be defeated by the Hide skill1!

Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) is worse because it's only Yes/no questions and there's a chance of the entity outright lying to you (or not answering the call in the case of Deieties).

Detect Magic, See Invisibility, and True seeing are all very concrete and the limitations of some (Zone of Truth) can be counteracted with other spells (Command: Answer) But Scry, Clairvoyance/Clairaudiance and Contact Other Plane depend on either the Target being incompetent, or the exrtaplanar entities either knowing what you want to know, or caring enough to answer.

So can someone enlighten me on Divination's usefullness?

1. 7th level Halfling Rogue, +4 dex, +4 size, 10 ranks in hide, Skill Focus (Hide), Masterwork Camo Clothes, and Stealthy makes a +25 to hide. Taking 10 means a 35. An equal level wizard with 5 ranks in spot, alertness (from familiar), Masterwork Spot tool, Skill focus (Spot) and a +4 from wisdom has a +16, he can only see the mystery rouge on a 20. So the spell will focus on a invisible rogue.

Flickerdart
2008-09-04, 08:02 PM
The Wizard has a gigantic repertoire of spells (2/level plus scrolls). The Wizard does not, however, have many spell slots. Even a specialist, super-cheesed out Wizard only has so many. This is when divinations come in.

A Wizard who casts a few divinations every now and then is prepared. He knows what he's up against in no uncertain terms. He can prepare a barrage of save-or-_____s that obliterate the specific enemies he will face, targeting their weaknesses. He will prepare Greater Dispel to counter spellcasters. He will make the necessary Contingencies to save his hide if it comes to that, or Celerity/Time Stop and grind the foes to dust.

A Wizard without divinations can't prepare for every possibility. He's powerful, but vulnerable. A Wizard who knows what's around the corner and chose his spells to kill it is near unbeatable.

Zeful
2008-09-04, 08:06 PM
I gathered that but I'd like more specifics on the how a wizard can prepare for every possibility when the spells themselves are limited or counterable by mundane means.

Crow
2008-09-04, 08:07 PM
The Wizard has a gigantic repertoire of spells (2/level plus scrolls). The Wizard does not, however, have many spell slots. Even a specialist, super-cheesed out Wizard only has so many. This is when divinations come in.

A Wizard who casts a few divinations every now and then is prepared. He knows what he's up against in no uncertain terms. He can prepare a barrage of save-or-_____s that obliterate the specific enemies he will face, targeting their weaknesses. He will prepare Greater Dispel to counter spellcasters. He will make the necessary Contingencies to save his hide if it comes to that, or Celerity/Time Stop and grind the foes to dust.

A Wizard without divinations can't prepare for every possibility. He's powerful, but vulnerable. A Wizard who knows what's around the corner and chose his spells to kill it is near unbeatable.

I think you missed the point of the question.

Flickerdart
2008-09-04, 08:08 PM
Oh, whoops. :smallbiggrin: Never mind me, then.

Azukius
2008-09-04, 08:10 PM
Also a specialist wizard who focuses on divination only needs to give up one other school. So as long as you cast at least one divination spell a day itsw the best one.

tyckspoon
2008-09-04, 08:15 PM
Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) is worse because it's only Yes/no questions and there's a chance of the entity outright lying to you (or not answering the call in the case of Deieties).

Never played 20 Questions? The 'incorrect answer' bit is easy to handle, too- if it's important that you be confident in the answer then cast the spell again, contact a different power, ask the question again. If you get the same answer twice, the odds are very good it's the right answer. If the answers don't agree, you can just keep casting the spell until you get enough consensus. Obviously not something you'll be doing in a time-sensitive situation, but if you want to learn something you will.



1. 7th level Halfling Rogue, +4 dex, +4 size, 10 ranks in hide, Skill Focus (Hide), Masterwork Camo Clothes, and Stealthy makes a +25 to hide. Taking 10 means a 35. An equal level wizard with 5 ranks in spot, alertness (from familiar), Masterwork Spot tool, Skill focus (Spot) and a +4 from wisdom has a +16, he can only see the mystery rouge on a 20. So the spell will focus on a invisible rogue.

Problems: You can't hide all the time. As soon as that stealthy halfling steps outside of cover, the wizard can spot him normally. Additionally, relatively few of the targets you may want to scry are all that stealthy- fairly few major monsters have Hide checks worth a damn, for instance (although in fairness few Wizards are optimized for Spot either.) If you want to watch a dragon go about its daily life, there's not much it can do to stop you until it gets old enough to use effective countermeasures like Mind Blank.

But the biggest problem: Not being directly spotted doesn't really make the halfling any safer. The wizard still knows where he is- right in the center of the area revealed by the scrying- and if he wants to attack the halfling he can still teleport right to him. That's why it's called Scry-and-Die, after all.

Crow
2008-09-04, 08:21 PM
Problems: You can't hide all the time. As soon as that stealthy halfling steps outside of cover, the wizard can spot him normally. Additionally, relatively few of the targets you may want to scry are all that stealthy- fairly few major monsters have Hide checks worth a damn, for instance (although in fairness few Wizards are optimized for Spot either.) If you want to watch a dragon go about its daily life, there's not much it can do to stop you until it gets old enough to use effective countermeasures like Mind Blank.

But the biggest problem: Not being directly spotted doesn't really make the halfling any safer. The wizard still knows where he is- right in the center of the area revealed by the scrying- and if he wants to attack the halfling he can still teleport right to him. That's why it's called Scry-and-Die, after all.

All that he needs to know is who he's looking for...Which is where contact other plane comes in. The yes or no answers only can make this difficult though.

Zeful
2008-09-04, 08:30 PM
Having played 20 questions I understand the concept of the spell, but when answers start contradicting themselves, you start playing a guessing game, which question do you ask again, and how sure are you that this being isn't lying, or worse yet skirting the bounds of the question's intent but only answering the letter.

Solution: Skill Mastery Hide, moving only at night. He's still vulnerable to things like cloudkill but you can't find him by looking.

The_Snark
2008-09-04, 08:44 PM
The halfling presumably doesn't spend his entire life hiding. If he happened to be hiding when the wizard scried on him, he's all right... although some scrying spells do have durations listed in hours... but he'd have to make a DC 20 Intelligence check in order to realize he was being scried on in the first place.

Other handy divination spells include Prying Eyes and Arcane Eye. The one gives you a good idea of the nearby area and the threats in it, and the other makes a good scout. Discern Location is obviously very handy, as is Find the Path (not a wizard spell, but still).

Zeful
2008-09-04, 09:05 PM
The halfling presumably doesn't spend his entire life hiding. If he happened to be hiding when the wizard scried on him, he's all right... although some scrying spells do have durations listed in hours... but he'd have to make a DC 20 Intelligence check in order to realize he was being scried on in the first place. The rogue could be working a job, increadibly paranoid, or just doesn't like feeling exposed etc. The point is, that the wizard can't see him.


Other handy divination spells include Prying Eyes and Arcane Eye. The one gives you a good idea of the nearby area and the threats in it, and the other makes a good scout. Discern Location is obviously very handy, as is Find the Path (not a wizard spell, but still).

Both Eye spells use the wizard's normal vision, or other specific, and limited, form of vision. None of them could see anything more than the wizard itself. Prying eyes has the advantage of keeping the wizard away from potential danger, and allow him to prepare for what he sees. But it won't tell him where traps are, if there are poisons on the air and etc. Actually very few scryings tell you the compositure of the air.

Telonius
2008-09-04, 09:17 PM
I'm curious about something that everyone seems to know but no one explains. Why are Divinations considered so powerful. I understand the "Knowledge is power" thing but how do spells like Scry and Contact other Plane turn an ordinary wizard into Batman? I mean scry can be defeated by the Hide skill1!

Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) is worse because it's only Yes/no questions and there's a chance of the entity outright lying to you (or not answering the call in the case of Deieties).

Detect Magic, See Invisibility, and True seeing are all very concrete and the limitations of some (Zone of Truth) can be counteracted with other spells (Command: Answer) But Scry, Clairvoyance/Clairaudiance and Contact Other Plane depend on either the Target being incompetent, or the exrtaplanar entities either knowing what you want to know, or caring enough to answer.

So can someone enlighten me on Divination's usefullness?

1. 7th level Halfling Rogue, +4 dex, +4 size, 10 ranks in hide, Skill Focus (Hide), Masterwork Camo Clothes, and Stealthy makes a +25 to hide. Taking 10 means a 35. An equal level wizard with 5 ranks in spot, alertness (from familiar), Masterwork Spot tool, Skill focus (Spot) and a +4 from wisdom has a +16, he can only see the mystery rouge on a 20. So the spell will focus on a invisible rogue.

Eyes of the Avoral, a first-level spell (Book of Exalted Deeds), grant the Wizard a +8 racial bonus on spot checks. Eyes of the Eagle, a 2500 gp item, grants a +5 competence bonus on spot. Throw in an Owl's Wisdom for +2 to spot, and an Owl Familiar for a +3 to spot in shadows (because really, what self-respecting Rogue isn't hiding in shadows?). That brings our Wizard's bonus up to +34 (+26 if you go core only). He fails on a 1, succeeds all other times. There are probably other ways to wring out a few more points of spot check, too.

So yes, if the Wizard really wants to see you, he'll see you.

Chronos
2008-09-04, 09:20 PM
But the biggest problem: Not being directly spotted doesn't really make the halfling any safer. The wizard still knows where he is- right in the center of the area revealed by the scrying- and if he wants to attack the halfling he can still teleport right to him. That's why it's called Scry-and-Die, after all.Not only do you find out where your target is (the most important piece of information you'd hope to find out), you also find out, which is just important, that he's very good at hiding, which tells you a lot about what his capabilities are (the second-most important piece of information). If I'm a wizard, and I've just learned that my target is very good at hiding, I'm going to make sure to prepare several copies of Glitterdust and other spells that could alert me to his presence (what spells exactly those would be would depend on what books are in play). I'll also guess that he's likely to have some form of precision damage, so I'll also prepare something that makes me immune to sneak attack, and I'll bring a minimum of equipment with me, securing most of it at my base, in case he tries to pick my pockets.

Or, of course, the enemy I'm scrying on isn't built for hiding, I see it, and I make other preparations based on what I do see.

Tormsskull
2008-09-04, 09:20 PM
The rogue could be working a job, increadibly paranoid, or just doesn't like feeling exposed etc. The point is, that the wizard can't see him.


That seems to be getting into the territory of overly specific situation versus most logical outcome. Not to say that a rogue couldn't be hiding 99% of the time, but remember that to the rogue he isn't playing a game. He eats dinner, goes to the bathroom, talks to other people, etc, etc.

monty
2008-09-04, 09:22 PM
Scry, Greater Invisibility, Teleport, widened Glitterdust, kill. Simple as that. Scrying shows you his surroundings to "approximately 10 feet in all directions." Widened Glitterdust has a 20 foot radius, so anywhere in the area is guaranteed to cover the whole thing. If you don't have Widen, a regular Glitterdust still has a pretty good chance.

Zeful
2008-09-04, 10:03 PM
And Teleport misses, even with locations you've lived in all your life, you can teleport yourself to areas you've never been before (unlikely but not impossible). Yes Scry is powerful, but it won't solve every single intelligence gathering senario single-handedly. I can think of dozens of situations where pulling a Scry-and-Die strategy fails outright. Infact relying on it to much could cause things like accidental suicide, loss of reputation, hits out on the characters and etc.

And yes I do tend to overly specific situations, but then when I run games I have a general idea of what each major NPC is doing when not "on screen" (weather that is taking hits, building an army, or making magic arms and armor) so that way I always have something when players pull something unexpected on me.

Crow
2008-09-04, 10:15 PM
I'm just curious. Can someone give me a list of the "20 questions". Assume the target is somebody the wizard has no connection to, and that that person might make an attempt on his life should the opportunity arrise, but has no plans which he is pursuing to that end.

Chronos
2008-09-04, 10:32 PM
I'm just curious. Can someone give me a list of the "20 questions".No, of course not. What questions you choose depend on the answers you've gotten to previous questions. Though a good start would probably be "Is there anyone who would be a plausible threat to me who is currently planning against me?".

Crow
2008-09-04, 10:45 PM
It just really seems like it would be difficult to pinpoint it down to one person, especially with zero foreknowledge. Then the wizard needs multiple castings just to verify the first. What if you get an incorrect answer both times, but on different questions? Then you need another casting to verify that...and it spirals out of control. Plus the (very small) chance of rolling poorly and losing the ability to cast for 5 weeks...yikes.

Thrawn183
2008-09-04, 10:45 PM
Sadly in my campaign divinations are just plot divices. If the DM doesn't want us to know something the divinations never work. If the DM does want us to know something than we either just get told by a NPC or some NPC caster can cast the divination for us.

I may not be a fan of scry and die because it can kill a game, but going in the opposite direction wrecks an entire school of magic.

monty
2008-09-04, 10:47 PM
And Teleport misses, even with locations you've lived in all your life, you can teleport yourself to areas you've never been before (unlikely but not impossible).

Greater Teleport, then. Higher level, but oh well.

Akimbo
2008-09-04, 10:48 PM
It just really seems like it would be difficult to pinpoint it down to one person, especially with zero foreknowledge. Then the wizard needs multiple castings just to verify the first. What if you get an incorrect answer both times, but on different questions? Then you need another casting to verify that...and it spirals out of control. Plus the (very small) chance of rolling poorly and losing the ability to cast for 5 weeks...yikes.

Welcome to probability theory.

But seriously, sample sizes work, 3 castings with a Greater Deity is fine, and you can be set up to never fail by the time Mindblank is around.

Crow
2008-09-04, 10:53 PM
Welcome to probability theory.

But seriously, sample sizes work, 3 castings with a Greater Deity is fine, and you can be set up to never fail by the time Mindblank is around.

Does he need to do this everyday or once a week, or what? How does he set it up to never fail? I'm genuinely curious here, as it would be nice to know even in non scy-and-die situations.

Assume Core-Only.

Akimbo
2008-09-05, 01:15 AM
Does he need to do this everyday or once a week, or what? How does he set it up to never fail? I'm genuinely curious here, as it would be nice to know even in non scy-and-die situations.

Assume Core-Only.

How often does he want to cast? I don't know, I just know that based on samples, and the rolls in question, asking the same question 3 times using the greater deity gives you a good enough sample to bet your life on.

As for "Assume Core only" No. I refuse to arbitrarily limit myself for no good reason.

It's DC 16, you get +1 for the role, +1 from a Luckstone, +4 From Greater Heroism, that means you need an Int mod of 10 by level 15. Since 18+2 Racial+6 Item+3 Level+1 Tome gives you +10 total.

You might notice that that's all Core, just wanted to make a point about arbitrary restrictions just for the sake of restrictions.

Chronos
2008-09-05, 01:22 AM
Then the wizard needs multiple castings just to verify the first. What if you get an incorrect answer both times, but on different questions? Then you need another casting to verify that...and it spirals out of control.We're talking about folks with intelligence scores of 30 or more, here. By that point, devising checksums and error-correction encodings is child's play. It might help if your DM is a computer programmer, though.

Crow
2008-09-05, 02:14 AM
We're talking about folks with intelligence scores of 30 or more, here. By that point, devising checksums and error-correction encodings is child's play. It might help if your DM is a computer programmer, though.

Suppose it's a sorcerer then with an average intelligence. Either way, this doesn't look nearly as bulletproof as the batman hyperbole would suggest.

Akimbo: I wasn't claiming it couldn't be done in core. I was just curious if it could be, or if it drew on something from a splatbook (as so many things do). Thanks.

Zeful
2008-09-05, 11:19 AM
No, of course not. What questions you choose depend on the answers you've gotten to previous questions. Though a good start would probably be "Is there anyone who would be a plausible threat to me who is currently planning against me?".

Define "plausable threat"? "Currently planning" is just bad, because it indicates the belief that there is no one capable of currently enacting their plans, after all your not the only 20th level wizard in the world.

jcsw
2008-09-05, 11:39 AM
Sounds like a logical fallacy here.

Just because something (divinations) will not work in a certain situation, (your case of the halfling), does not mean it should not be used.

Analogy: I shouldn't ask for directions because the person I ask may not know the way/lie to me.

Analogy: Illusion Spells suck, because undead are immune to them.

If a spell will give a wizard a potential significant advantage, it is viable. Just like many other spells, they give wizards potential advantages against their foes.

Telonius
2008-09-05, 11:52 AM
Define "plausable threat"? "Currently planning" is just bad, because it indicates the belief that there is no one capable of currently enacting their plans, after all your not the only 20th level wizard in the world.

Plausible threat seems pretty plain to me. A plausible threat would be somebody (or a group of somebodies) that has the wherewithal to kill or injure me. A Commoner1 probably isn't going to be a plausible threat, but a Wizard18 might be.

"Has anyone completed devising such a plan against me?" would be a good second question.

Zeful
2008-09-05, 12:22 PM
Sounds like a logical fallacy here.

Just because something (divinations) will not work in a certain situation, (your case of the halfling), does not mean it should not be used.

Analogy: I shouldn't ask for directions because the person I ask may not know the way/lie to me.

Analogy: Illusion Spells suck, because undead are immune to them.

If a spell will give a wizard a potential significant advantage, it is viable. Just like many other spells, they give wizards potential advantages against their foes.

Not really, I'm just wondering why things like Scry, and COP [Contact Other Plane] are so heavily relied upon despite not being wholely reliable themselves. The rogue was just a bit to prove my point (scry can be defeated by hide) which was disproven by Telonius.

I'm curious that's all.

Kyeudo
2008-09-05, 12:44 PM
You use a divination and get to the conclusion "There's a lich in this dungeon." While that divination may only have given you a 70% chance of a true result, now you have something specific to work with and pretty good odds of being right.

Now you know to avoid spells that undead are immune to, know to prep for a powerful caster, and prep spells that are good for clearing out the undead. You still prep some spells that are generally good, in case you are wrong or the lich has allies, but your spell selection is more focused and thus more effective.

streakster
2008-09-05, 01:01 PM
You use a divination and get to the conclusion "There's a lich in this dungeon." While that divination may only have given you a 70% chance of a true result, now you have something specific to work with and pretty good odds of being right.

Now you know to avoid spells that undead are immune to, know to prep for a powerful caster, and prep spells that are good for clearing out the undead. You still prep some spells that are generally good, in case you are wrong or the lich has allies, but your spell selection is more focused and thus more effective.

Do it twice, and now you have great odds of being right!

That's the power of divinations.

Zeful
2008-09-05, 01:08 PM
You use a divination and get to the conclusion "There's a lich in this dungeon." While that divination may only have given you a 70% chance of a true result, now you have something specific to work with and pretty good odds of being right.

Now you know to avoid spells that undead are immune to, know to prep for a powerful caster, and prep spells that are good for clearing out the undead. You still prep some spells that are generally good, in case you are wrong or the lich has allies, but your spell selection is more focused and thus more effective.

And this makes sense to me but the concept that "Divinations make all combats forgone conclusions." Makes no sense because no single Divination in the game gives you all the information in one go, you can find out that the Big bad of the Dungeon is a Lich, and where he is, but you can't know except by going there if the room is trapped, or if the lich specializes in Illusions or Abjuration spells etc.

Akimbo
2008-09-05, 01:17 PM
Combats are a foregone conclusion because after divinations you are facing a prepared Wizard. They are just used to set up the condition which is an auto-win.

streakster
2008-09-05, 01:39 PM
And this makes sense to me but the concept that "Divinations make all combats forgone conclusions." Makes no sense because no single Divination in the game gives you all the information in one go, you can find out that the Big bad of the Dungeon is a Lich, and where he is, but you can't know except by going there if the room is trapped, or if the lich specializes in Illusions or Abjuration spells etc.

So ask more questions! "Is his room trapped?" "What school of magic does he specialize in?"

Simple.

Crow
2008-09-05, 01:59 PM
Basically, any question you ask, you will need to ask at least twice to make sure you got the right answer, plus you'll need a 3rd casting to be sure. It works great for the "What can I expect to face in this dungeon" scenarios. The point where I find it a bit of a stretch is when it becomes "I will be prepared every time I leave my magnificent mansion" because I have this spell. I don't need to know what to ask, because my wizard has 34 INT, so let's just assume he asks all the right questions and is able to verify the results with 100% accuracy".

It may be fine in some groups, but it just won't fly in others. I think the most skilled wizard afficianados on this forum would agree that the fanboys are stretching a little bit on that one.

Frosty
2008-09-05, 02:01 PM
And this is why I don't really allow divinations either in many of my games. It makes the game trivial when combiend with wizards. Either that, or all BBEGs have anti-scrying, Mindblank, and anti-divination rituals. So you can go ahead and cast divinations on the small random encounters, but the BBEG will be immune.

Akimbo
2008-09-05, 02:59 PM
Basically, any question you ask, you will need to ask at least twice to make sure you got the right answer, plus you'll need a 3rd casting to be sure. It works great for the "What can I expect to face in this dungeon" scenarios. The point where I find it a bit of a stretch is when it becomes "I will be prepared every time I leave my magnificent mansion" because I have this spell. I don't need to know what to ask, because my wizard has 34 INT, so let's just assume he asks all the right questions and is able to verify the results with 100% accuracy".

It may be fine in some groups, but it just won't fly in others. I think the most skilled wizard afficianados on this forum would agree that the fanboys are stretching a little bit on that one.

It's a Wizard. This is not hard. You are automatically prepared because your spell list is made of sexy. You just get to ask questions about animals and undead so that you can be even more sexy awesome.

Chronos
2008-09-05, 03:38 PM
Suppose it's a sorcerer then with an average intelligence. Either way, this doesn't look nearly as bulletproof as the batman hyperbole would suggest.Divinations aren't a big deal for a sorcerer, anyway. First of all, you're less likely to burn one of your precious spells known on something you'll probably only use once a week or so, and second, a sorcerer can't get as much use out of the information, anyway, since they always have the same spells available every day.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-05, 03:50 PM
And this is why I don't really allow divinations either in many of my games. It makes the game trivial when combiend with wizards. Either that, or all BBEGs have anti-scrying, Mindblank, and anti-divination rituals. So you can go ahead and cast divinations on the small random encounters, but the BBEG will be immune.

Sure Frosty. Just go and throw out all the rule breakingly awesome abilities that make wizards better than anyone at everything, whydoncha?

:biggrin: :wink: :tongue: :biggrin:

monty
2008-09-05, 04:31 PM
A Commoner1 probably isn't going to be a plausible threat

Keyword being "probably."

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-05, 04:35 PM
Keyword being "probably."Certainly, actually. There was a thread in which a Wizard 20 that always rolled 1s was against a Fighter 20 that always rolled 20s. The Wizard won. No combination of circumstances and luck will make a Commoner 1 a threat.

monty
2008-09-05, 04:37 PM
Chicken-Infested. Enough said.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-05, 04:40 PM
Chicken-Infested. Enough said.That only works with certain Feat/PrC combos to throw an infinite number in a turn, at which point it's not a Commoner 1.

monty
2008-09-05, 04:47 PM
Commoner 1.
Feat: Chicken-Infested.
Starting gold 5d4. Minimum 5, so buy a spell component pouch.
Proceed to break the universe.

How is that not a commoner 1?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-05, 04:48 PM
Commoner 1.
Feat: Chicken-Infested.
Starting gold 5d4. Minimum 5, so buy a spell component pouch.
Proceed to break the universe.

How is that not a commoner 1?How is it a threat to the Wizard?

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-05, 04:49 PM
That only works with certain Feat/PrC combos to throw an infinite number in a turn, at which point it's not a Commoner 1.

Wasn't aware there was a combo involved beyond:

Be a commoner.
Take the Chicken-Infested Flaw
Buy a spell component pouch.
Draw something from it as a free action.
50% of the time you get a chicken, 50% of the time you get nothing.
If you're holding a chicken now, drop it as a free action.
Repeat from Step 4 until you judge you have enough chickens.
Profit $$$

It's the "grey goo bomb" of nanite fame, only with chickens. LOTS of Chickens.

monty
2008-09-05, 04:50 PM
Wizard and commoner are in a room. Commoner produces an arbitrary number of chickens as a free action, crushing/suffocating/whatever the wizard.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-05, 04:53 PM
Wasn't aware there was a combo involved beyond:

Be a commoner.
Take the Chicken-Infested Flaw
Buy a spell component pouch.
Draw something from it as a free action.
50% of the time you get a chicken, 50% of the time you get nothing.
If you're holding a chicken now, drop it as a free action.
Repeat from Step 4 until you judge you have enough chickens.
Profit $$$

It's the "grey goo bomb" of nanite fame, only with chickens. LOTS of Chickens.I know the combo, I just don't think it's dangerous to anything. Yes, it expands so every 5' cube is full of chickens, but since any Wizard can Plane Shift away, it's not really a threat, especially since there's a roughly 80% chance the Wizard is underground/inside a castle/on another plane/in an extradimensional space when this happens. If you could explain how it kills him, then I'll accept that a Commoner is a threat.

monty
2008-09-05, 04:59 PM
Alternately, since an ever-expanding chicken mass is being created in an incredibly short amount of time (less than 6 seconds, at any rate), it would at some point have to break relativity to reach that size within the assumed time frame (note: any physicists can feel free to correct me if I'm totally wrong).

Universe falls, everybody dies.

Zeful
2008-09-05, 05:01 PM
Combats are a foregone conclusion because after divinations you are facing a prepared Wizard. They are just used to set up the condition which is an auto-win.

How is the wizard prepared for the encounter when he has a mere 5% of all the information of any encounter? By scrying he could have triggered an AMF trap. You can teleport into AMF but now you are a commoner with a good will save. All of your magical protections, Persistant Foresight can't warn you fast enough, you can't cast Celeracy (or however it's spelled) and so on.


So ask more questions! "Is his room trapped?" "What school of magic does he specialize in?"
"No" and "The **** crows at midnight." are the correct responces to your questions. If the question for COP can't be answered with one word you get a random answer. You've now wasted two questions (or more if you ask if the lich is specialised in x) to get one useful, but potentially damning answer.


Basically, any question you ask, you will need to ask at least twice to make sure you got the right answer, plus you'll need a 3rd casting to be sure. It works great for the "What can I expect to face in this dungeon" scenarios. The point where I find it a bit of a stretch is when it becomes "I will be prepared every time I leave my magnificent mansion" because I have this spell. I don't need to know what to ask, because my wizard has 34 INT, so let's just assume he asks all the right questions and is able to verify the results with 100% accuracy".

It may be fine in some groups, but it just won't fly in others. I think the most skilled wizard afficianados on this forum would agree that the fanboys are stretching a little bit on that one.

INT 34 means really nothing. The question must be answerable with one word. As the questions get more complex the answers become increasingly vauge, alot more "maybe"s work there way into your answers. Making them more useless.


It's a Wizard. This is not hard. You are automatically prepared because your spell list is made of sexy. You just get to ask questions about animals and undead so that you can be even more sexy awesome.
Your point? Batman, the man who can fight those with powers over time to a standstill, still needs 1/4 of an episode to figure out what's going on. Batman isn't automatically prepared, and neither is the wizard.


Certainly, actually. There was a thread in which a Wizard 20 that always rolled 1s was against a Fighter 20 that always rolled 20s. The Wizard won. No combination of circumstances and luck will make a Commoner 1 a threat.
So the commoner that's minutes away from activating the multiverse-destroying McGuffin isn't a threat to the wizard? Or maybe the Big Bad's granddaughter who pulls a lever to activate the AMF trap that your standing in? That last sentence seems to indicate that you have no imagination.

Jayabalard
2008-09-05, 05:12 PM
Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) is worse because it's only Yes/no questions and there's a chance of the entity outright lying to you (or not answering the call in the case of Deieties).Personally, I also find it limited by the fact that we'd never use a table to handle that sort of interaction; we're only going to be able to get reliable answers out a diety that we're on really good terms with, and most other being could care less unless we're offering them something that they want.


The halfling presumably doesn't spend his entire life hiding. I don't find that any more far-fetched than the ultra-paranoid wizard that is always used as the example of the unkillable wizard.


No, of course not. What questions you choose depend on the answers you've gotten to previous questions. Though a good start would probably be "Is there anyone who would be a plausible threat to me who is currently planning against me?".There are a couple problems with that one.

First of all, it's a Catch 22. If the entity gives you that information, and you can kill them with no danger, then they aren't a plausible threat. So the answer is "No"

Second, currently planning, taken literally will fail almost all of the time, since they are likely to not be actually planning in the same instant that you go looking for information.

NEO|Phyte
2008-09-05, 05:24 PM
"No" and "The **** crows at midnight." are the correct responces to your questions. If the question for COP can't be answered with one word you get a random answer. You've now wasted two questions (or more if you ask if the lich is specialised in x) to get one useful, but potentially damning answer.

"Divination" "Evocation" "Conjuration" "Transmutation" "Abjuration" "Illusion" "Enchantment" "Necromancy" Aren't one word answers to "What school of magic does he specialize in?"

I find that odd.

Zeful
2008-09-05, 05:33 PM
"Divination" "Evocation" "Conjuration" "Transmutation" "Abjuration" "Illusion" "Enchantment" "Necromancy" Aren't one word answers to "What school of magic does he specialize in?"

I find that odd.

You're right, for some reason I forgot that.

I find that odd.

Curmudgeon
2008-09-05, 05:34 PM
1. 7th level Halfling Rogue, +4 dex, +4 size, 10 ranks in hide, Skill Focus (Hide), Masterwork Camo Clothes, and Stealthy makes a +25 to hide. Taking 10 means a 35. An equal level wizard with 5 ranks in spot, alertness (from familiar), Masterwork Spot tool, Skill focus (Spot) and a +4 from wisdom has a +16, he can only see the mystery rouge on a 20. So the spell will focus on a invisible rogue. This could be worse, you know. Next level the Rogue can take a level of Shadowdancer, and Hide pretty much continually.

Yes, Wizards generally rule. But there are some situations where other classes hold an advantage. Don't lose any sleep over this.

Akimbo
2008-09-05, 05:38 PM
How is the wizard prepared for the encounter when he has a mere 5% of all the information of any encounter? By scrying he could have triggered an AMF trap. You can teleport into AMF but now you are a commoner with a good will save. All of your magical protections, Persistant Foresight can't warn you fast enough, you can't cast Celeracy (or however it's spelled) and so on.

What on earth are you talking about? I'm talking about Contact Other Plane, not scrying, not teleport. And scrying if for some reason it activated an AMF trap would then stop working, and the Wizard would know there was something there he does not want.

Contact Other Plane allows you to be statistically certain as to the likelyhood of anything you care to ask.

I don't know what you'd care to ask because I need an actual campaign before there is something to ask. But when I do ask it, I can find out what I need to know at the end of the day, so that I know what to prepare for tomorrow.


Your point? Batman, the man who can fight those with powers over time to a standstill, still needs 1/4 of an episode to figure out what's going on. Batman isn't automatically prepared, and neither is the wizard.

What the hell does this have to do with anything? Anyway. A prepared Wizard is made of sexy awesome and kills things. An unprepared Wizard is still made of sexy awesome and kills things

Eldritch_Ent
2008-09-05, 05:58 PM
Your point? Batman, the man who can fight those with powers over time to a standstill, still needs 1/4 of an episode to figure out what's going on. Batman isn't automatically prepared, and neither is the wizard.


Off topic here, but I swear I first heard of that in TVtropes wiki but can't find it again. Can you actually tell me the name of the villain that did that, or the issue number or something?

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-05, 06:02 PM
I know the combo, I just don't think it's dangerous to anything. Yes, it expands so every 5' cube is full of chickens, but since any Wizard can Plane Shift away, it's not really a threat, especially since there's a roughly 80% chance the Wizard is underground/inside a castle/on another plane/in an extradimensional space when this happens. If you could explain how it kills him, then I'll accept that a Commoner is a threat.

Well, it means that the Wizard better have Sudden Silent/Still Spell because he won't be able to move or speak when every inch of space on the same plane is filled with chickens.

Assuming he has metamagic to cover that situation then if there's an open planar Gate to the Plane he's shifting to from the one he's leaving then every possible inch of that plane will be full of chickens as well. And considering that the universe is infinitely large there probably is a gate somewhere that goes to anywhere you could get to with Plane Shift. :smallbiggrin:

Flickerdart
2008-09-05, 06:04 PM
Well, it means that the Wizard better have Sudden Silent/Still Spell because he won't be able to move or speak when every inch of space on the same plane is filled with chickens.

Assuming he has metamagic to cover that situation then if there's an open planar Gate to the Plane he's shifting to from the one he's leaving then every possible inch of that plane will be full of chickens as well. And considering that the universe is infinitely large there probably is a gate somewhere that goes to anywhere you could get to with Plane Shift. :smallbiggrin:
Magnificent Mansion. Nobody but those you allow can enter.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-05, 06:10 PM
Well, it means that the Wizard better have Sudden Silent/Still Spell because he won't be able to move or speak when every inch of space on the same plane is filled with chickens.

Assuming he has metamagic to cover that situation then if there's an open planar Gate to the Plane he's shifting to from the one he's leaving then every possible inch of that plane will be full of chickens as well. And considering that the universe is infinitely large there probably is a gate somewhere that goes to anywhere you could get to with Plane Shift. :smallbiggrin:Quicken Spell/Celerity/Foresight/Contingency. Any of those will let him vanish. And as long as he goes to Sigil, he's safe. The Lady would not be amused at your antics if they affect her domain.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-05, 06:12 PM
I'm just curious. Can someone give me a list of the "20 questions". Assume the target is somebody the wizard has no connection to, and that that person might make an attempt on his life should the opportunity arrise, but has no plans which he is pursuing to that end.
Sorta. I can walk you through the basic method to asking them, but you'll need to be able to plan it out in advance and ask questions quickly of your contact (your DM).

First thing you need to do is check with your DM on a few details of the spell (who could reasonably require you to make a Spellcraft or Knoweledge(The Planes) check to determine this - but if you're playing a Wizard who's high enough to reasonably pull this off, that shouldn't be an issue). The first bit of info you need is if the percentile roll is per question or per casting. The second bit you only need if the percentile is per question - and that is, do repeat/re-phrased questions in the same casting get a second percentile roll?

Second thing is to consider: It's Commune that's Yes/no; Contact Other Plane permits one-word answers (e.g., you can get counts, first names, last names, and so on).

If it's per casting, you're golden - the first three questions of each casting are about things you already know for certain, and are things while, while a one-word response is perfect, have a lot of options. If all three are correct, you've got about a 99% chance that the DM rolled "true". Otherwise, you're dealing with either "Lie", "Don't know", or "Random", and you can stop asking questions because continuing is pointless.

If it's "per question" and repeats/rephrasings get an independent roll, you ask each question three times (phrased a little differently if the DM requires such) which gives you your 99% if they're consistent.

If it's "per question" and repeats/rephrasings use the same roll, you'll need multiple castings for corroboration (you use the same list for all three castings), but the method is essentially the same as the previous one.

If you and your DM both know details of checksums and parity-bits, and the DM permits meta questions, it costs a lot less questions to be reasonably sure, but the methods are a bit more complex.

Basically, though, you do something akin to asking index questions - if you're looking to figure out what you'll need to defend against today, the first question is "How many times in the next 36 hours am I going to want to defend against credible threats against myself, my property, or my companions?" If the answer is 0, you double the timeframe and ask again (loop until you get a number other than 0, and keep track of the timeframe - for continuing the example, I'm going to assume the answer was an immediate "three"). If the answer is a number, you start asking more detailed questions; e.g., "Exactly how many creatures are involved in the first credible threat against myself, my property, or my companions that I will want to defend against in the next 36 hours?". If the answer is 0, you ask about the general nature of the first threat, and go from there (making sure to include a listing of all modifiers and specifiers you're using in each question). If the answer is a "manageable" number, you then start asking questions about the strongest creature involved in the first credible... (you get the idea), and then once you've got "enough" information about the strongest creature, you ask about the second-strongest creature involved in the first credible... and so on, and so forth, until you've exhausted the number of creatures involved in the first credible threat - at which point, you move on to the next credible threat.

Takes a lot of practice.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-05, 06:14 PM
Magnificent Mansion. Nobody but those you allow can enter.

Where are you going to place the 4 foot wide, 8 foot tall portal so you can enter? Everywhere in the universe is nothing but chickens, and you have line of sight/effect to nothing. Even if you put it right under you chicken feathers would stop you from being able to slide down into the Manor. :smallwink:

Collin152
2008-09-05, 06:19 PM
Where are you going to place the 4 foot wide, 8 foot tall portal so you can enter? Everywhere in the universe is nothing but chickens, and you have line of sight/effect to nothing. Even if you put it right under you chicken feathers would stop you from being able to slide down into the Manor. :smallwink:

Antilife Shell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antilifeShell.htm)

Done.

See Wish if you must cast it yourself.

Flickerdart
2008-09-05, 06:26 PM
Where are you going to place the 4 foot wide, 8 foot tall portal so you can enter? Everywhere in the universe is nothing but chickens, and you have line of sight/effect to nothing. Even if you put it right under you chicken feathers would stop you from being able to slide down into the Manor. :smallwink:
I'd cast it from the Astral plane that I got to before the chickens did thanks to the portal inside my Warforged companion's chest. :smallwink:

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-05, 06:39 PM
I'd cast it from the Astral plane that I got to before the chickens did thanks to the portal inside my Warforged companion's chest. :smallwink:

The chickenification of the multiverse happens during the commoners turn as he begins his NI free actions. Before you even get a chance to act, every possible place is flooded with chickens.

The only hope for you to survive is to kill any commoners who take the Chicken Infested Flaw BEFORE they get to buy their spell component pouches. Once they've produced even one chicken it's far, far too late. You're clucked. :smalltongue:

monty
2008-09-05, 06:41 PM
Quicken Spell/Celerity/Foresight/Contingency. Any of those will let him vanish. And as long as he goes to Sigil, he's safe. The Lady would not be amused at your antics if they affect her domain.

What the hell kind of wizard has a Contingency for "when I'm covered in chickens"? And what's Foresight going to do for him? Quicken doesn't do anything until it's too late, and I don't think you can use Celerity to interrupt a free action (I could be wrong here, though), so...

Collin152
2008-09-05, 06:42 PM
What the hell kind of wizard has a Contingency for "when I'm covered in chickens"? And what's Foresight going to do for him? Quicken doesn't do anything until it's too late, and I don't think you can use Celerity to interrupt a free action (I could be wrong here, though), so...

I have a Contingency whose trigger is "When I say 'Blow me to Bermuda'". Guess what it does?

Flickerdart
2008-09-05, 06:44 PM
The chickenification of the multiverse happens during the commoners turn as he begins his NI free actions. Before you even get a chance to act, every possible place is flooded with chickens.

The only hope for you to survive is to kill any commoners who take the Chicken Infested Flaw BEFORE they get to buy their spell component pouches. Once they've produced even one chicken it's far, far too late. You're clucked. :smalltongue:
I'm pretty sure every god that isn't Ollidamarra will have something to say about that. And by say, I mean divine retribution.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-05, 07:38 PM
What the hell kind of wizard has a Contingency for "when I'm covered in chickens"? And what's Foresight going to do for him? Quicken doesn't do anything until it's too late, and I don't think you can use Celerity to interrupt a free action (I could be wrong here, though), so...Contingency:When I am in a situation that would lead to my death in the next 3 seconds and there is nothing I can do to prevent it, Plane Shift me to Sigil.
Foresight:
This spell grants you a powerful sixth sense in relation to yourself or another. Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell. You are never surprised or flat-footed. In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourselfIf it's dangerous, I know, and know the safest thing for me to do is Plane Shift somewhere else.
Quicken spell is only useful if you're already in combat(i.e. not flatfooted), but allows you to cast a spell as a Swift Action when the chickens start piling up. Since you can take a Swift Action any time you could take a Free Action, you can do it on an opponent's turn, interrupting the Commoner's chain of infinite Chickens.
Celerity can interrupt anything. It's cool like that.

Collin152
2008-09-05, 07:40 PM
Contingency:When I am in a situation that would lead to my death in the next 3 seconds and there is nothing I can do to prevent it, Plane Shift me to Sigil.
Foresight:If it's dangerous, I know, and know the safest thing for me to do is Plane Shift somewhere else.
Quicken spell is only useful if you're already in combat(i.e. not flatfooted), but allows you to cast a spell as a Swift Action when the chickens start piling up. Since you can take a Swift Action any time you could take a Free Action, you can do it on an opponent's turn, interrupting the Commoner's chain of infinite Chickens.
Celerity can interrupt anything. It's cool like that.

I thought it was Immediate actions you could take when it isn't your turn?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-05, 07:43 PM
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting or the activation of magic items; many characters (especially those who don't cast spells) never have an opportunity to take a swift action. It's RAW, but probably not RAI. Of course, Chicken-infested to break the universe isn't RAI, either.

monty
2008-09-05, 07:53 PM
Free actions, however, can only be taken during your turn. Otherwise, immediate actions would be pointless.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-05, 07:55 PM
Free actions, however, can only be taken during your turn. Otherwise, immediate actions would be pointless.Really? You can't take Free Actions during other people's turns?

Aneantir
2008-09-05, 07:58 PM
Free actions, however, can only be taken during your turn. Otherwise, immediate actions would be pointless.

Actually, Immediate actions would be pointless if Swift actions could be taken during your opponents turn. Free actions do not have a counterpart that works outside of your turn, so instead they can only be taken during your turn unless otherwise stated in the ability description.

monty
2008-09-05, 08:03 PM
Pretty sure you can't, but even if I'm wrong, it doesn't matter.


Immediate Action

An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn.

The logical assumption is that you can only take a swift action during your turn.

monty
2008-09-05, 08:04 PM
Actually, Immediate actions would be pointless if Swift actions could be taken during your opponents turn. Free actions do not have a counterpart that works outside of your turn, so instead they can only be taken during your turn unless otherwise stated in the ability description.

I meant that by his logic (swift action can be taken any time a free action can), free actions at any time would allow swift actions to be taken at any time, making immediate actions redundant.

jcsw
2008-09-05, 09:19 PM
Contingency:When I am in a situation that would lead to my death in the next 3 seconds and there is nothing I can do to prevent it, Plane Shift me to Sigil.
Foresight:If it's dangerous, I know, and know the safest thing for me to do is Plane Shift somewhere else.
Quicken spell is only useful if you're already in combat(i.e. not flatfooted), but allows you to cast a spell as a Swift Action when the chickens start piling up. Since you can take a Swift Action any time you could take a Free Action, you can do it on an opponent's turn, interrupting the Commoner's chain of infinite Chickens.
Celerity can interrupt anything. It's cool like that.

IIRC You can't plane shift into Sigil, according to planar handbook, you have to use one of the portals.

Chronos
2008-09-05, 09:20 PM
Another good Contingency trigger is "If I'm ever rendered incapable of casting spells with verbal and somatic components". This would also cover, for instance, being incapacitated in a variety of ways (such as being buried in chickens), or being encased in a Silence spell (which, while not directly harmful, will still significantly restrict your options).

arguskos
2008-09-05, 09:27 PM
Free actions, however, can only be taken during your turn. Otherwise, immediate actions would be pointless.
As an amusing note, this means you cannot talk during other people's turns (since talking is a free action). Yay, for RAW being stupid!

-argus

NEO|Phyte
2008-09-05, 09:29 PM
As an amusing note, this means you cannot talk during other people's turns (since talking is a free action). Yay, for RAW being stupid!

Talking can specifically be done out of turn.

Collin152
2008-09-05, 09:31 PM
And before people bring up things like breathing, nonactions also exist.

arguskos
2008-09-05, 09:41 PM
Talking can specifically be done out of turn.
Really? I only saw mention of it being doable as a free action. I mean, of course everyone understands it can be done out of turn, but I never did see a mention of that in the rules. Meh. My post was meant to be amusing, nothing more.

-argus

Crow
2008-09-05, 10:22 PM
Sorta. I can walk you through the basic method to asking them, but you'll need to be able to plan it out in advance and ask questions quickly of your contact (your DM).

First thing you need to do is check with your DM on a few details of the spell (who could reasonably require you to make a Spellcraft or Knoweledge(The Planes) check to determine this - but if you're playing a Wizard who's high enough to reasonably pull this off, that shouldn't be an issue). The first bit of info you need is if the percentile roll is per question or per casting. The second bit you only need if the percentile is per question - and that is, do repeat/re-phrased questions in the same casting get a second percentile roll?

Second thing is to consider: It's Commune that's Yes/no; Contact Other Plane permits one-word answers (e.g., you can get counts, first names, last names, and so on).

If it's per casting, you're golden - the first three questions of each casting are about things you already know for certain, and are things while, while a one-word response is perfect, have a lot of options. If all three are correct, you've got about a 99% chance that the DM rolled "true". Otherwise, you're dealing with either "Lie", "Don't know", or "Random", and you can stop asking questions because continuing is pointless.

If it's "per question" and repeats/rephrasings get an independent roll, you ask each question three times (phrased a little differently if the DM requires such) which gives you your 99% if they're consistent.

If it's "per question" and repeats/rephrasings use the same roll, you'll need multiple castings for corroboration (you use the same list for all three castings), but the method is essentially the same as the previous one.

If you and your DM both know details of checksums and parity-bits, and the DM permits meta questions, it costs a lot less questions to be reasonably sure, but the methods are a bit more complex.

Basically, though, you do something akin to asking index questions - if you're looking to figure out what you'll need to defend against today, the first question is "How many times in the next 36 hours am I going to want to defend against credible threats against myself, my property, or my companions?" If the answer is 0, you double the timeframe and ask again (loop until you get a number other than 0, and keep track of the timeframe - for continuing the example, I'm going to assume the answer was an immediate "three"). If the answer is a number, you start asking more detailed questions; e.g., "Exactly how many creatures are involved in the first credible threat against myself, my property, or my companions that I will want to defend against in the next 36 hours?". If the answer is 0, you ask about the general nature of the first threat, and go from there (making sure to include a listing of all modifiers and specifiers you're using in each question). If the answer is a "manageable" number, you then start asking questions about the strongest creature involved in the first credible... (you get the idea), and then once you've got "enough" information about the strongest creature, you ask about the second-strongest creature involved in the first credible... and so on, and so forth, until you've exhausted the number of creatures involved in the first credible threat - at which point, you move on to the next credible threat.

Takes a lot of practice.

So the difficulty will vary depending on how your DM rules the percentile roll. I see how this can work now, I don't know how I missed the one-word answer thing and thought it was Yes or No (I was looking at the spell just last night). That definately makes it feasable.

Getting only Yes or No answers, and only getting about 10 questions without CL boosters would make it pretty tough.

The only hang-up I can see is that your DM can still screw you in the "safe every time I leave my mansion" scenarios because it doesn't say anywhere that you can get information about the future. Basically, the power you contact could just be guessing.

Any information that you ask for which pertains to the here-and-now though is still good.

Frosty
2008-09-05, 10:24 PM
Really? I only saw mention of it being doable as a free action. I mean, of course everyone understands it can be done out of turn, but I never did see a mention of that in the rules. Meh. My post was meant to be amusing, nothing more.

-argus

Talking is defined in the PHB as a free action that you can take during somebody else's turn.

arguskos
2008-09-05, 10:26 PM
Talking is defined in the PHB as a free action that you can take during somebody else's turn.
And so I see. Hmpf, I feel silly now. >_<

-argus

Sholos
2008-09-05, 10:41 PM
How often does he want to cast? I don't know, I just know that based on samples, and the rolls in question, asking the same question 3 times using the greater deity gives you a good enough sample to bet your life on.

1. Pissing off greater deities (and the spell specifically states that the entity you contact resents the intrusion) is not a good way to extend your life.

2. Deities can simply choose to ignore the spell, or even use the opportunity to screw you over if they want to.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-05, 11:37 PM
So the difficulty will vary depending on how your DM rules the percentile roll. I see how this can work now, I don't know how I missed the one-word answer thing and thought it was Yes or No (I was looking at the spell just last night). That definately makes it feasable.

Getting only Yes or No answers, and only getting about 10 questions without CL boosters would make it pretty tough.

The only hang-up I can see is that your DM can still screw you in the "safe every time I leave my mansion" scenarios because it doesn't say anywhere that you can get information about the future. Basically, the power you contact could just be guessing.

Any information that you ask for which pertains to the here-and-now though is still good.
There are a lot of ways built into the spell the DM can use to nullify the tactic (or worse).

Ignoring the (already mentioned) bit that the things you contact "resent" it...

1) "Irrelevant" is listed as one of the options as an answer. Nowhere is it defined that it's the player, or the player's character, that determines what's relevant. A 15th level Wizard isn't necessarily relevant to a greater deity on the outer planes. All answers could come back "Irrelevant" when they're about stuff that concerns the mortal spellcaster.

2) The ability checks are somewhat difficult to make consistently if you want decent answers. Taking 10 only applies to skill checks, which this is not. You'll need stuff that boosts Ability checks, in addition to a very prodigious Intelligence score, to consistently work with the reliable Greater Deities (Int-40 makes it on a 1, as does Int-36 with a Stone of Good Luck and a Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone), so you'll more often be working with Demidieties, which give you a lower percentage. Now, technically, you can bypass this (sort of) by abusing your Famliar (cast it directly on your familiar, give your familiar instructions), but there's notes in Core about forces that punish those who abuse their familiars.

3) It's still a divination spell that's gathering information. Technically, absurd as it is, Mind Blank trumps it - especially as it includes the option in Contact Other Plane spell that "forces" can prevent the spell from functioning.

Crow
2008-09-05, 11:43 PM
There are a lot of ways built into the spell the DM can use to nullify the tactic (or worse).

Ignoring the (already mentioned) bit that the things you contact "resent" it...

1) "Irrelevant" is listed as one of the options as an answer. Nowhere is it defined that it's the player, or the player's character, that determines what's relevant. A 15th level Wizard isn't necessarily relevant to a greater deity on the outer planes. All answers could come back "Irrelevant" when they're about stuff that concerns the mortal spellcaster.

2) The ability checks are somewhat difficult to make consistently if you want decent answers. Taking 10 only applies to skill checks, which this is not. You'll need stuff that boosts Ability checks, in addition to a very prodigious Intelligence score, to consistently work with the reliable Greater Deities (Int-40 makes it on a 1, as does Int-36 with a Stone of Good Luck and a Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone), so you'll more often be working with Demidieties, which give you a lower percentage. Now, technically, you can bypass this (sort of) by abusing your Famliar (cast it directly on your familiar, give your familiar instructions), but there's notes in Core about forces that punish those who abuse their familiars.

3) It's still a divination spell that's gathering information. Technically, absurd as it is, Mind Blank trumps it - especially as it includes the option in Contact Other Plane spell that "forces" can prevent the spell from functioning.

Those are very good points. So this spell was subjected to a great deal of batman hyperbole then.

Sholos
2008-09-06, 12:02 AM
Definitely. I still like my solution, though. Cast it once a month, Mr. Greater Deity might not mind (if he/she is one of the Good/Neutral ones). Once a week? Now you're probably starting to get irritating, and the Evil ones will probably start trying to get back. Or something. Every day? I doubt even the Good ones would hold back for long.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-06, 12:06 AM
Those are very good points. So this spell was subjected to a great deal of batman hyperbole then.
The most useful divination spells for planning are open to a rather lot of interpretation - and as the DM is the referee, this means they're open to a rather lot of DM whimsey.

Most batman builds assume a cooperative DM. For instance, most Batman builds spend quite a few levels on PrC classes, assuming they are trivially permitted. If you check the Dungeon Master's Guide, in the Presteige class header, there's a rather annoying paragraph (annoying for optimizers, anyway):



Prestige classes are purely optional and always under the purview of the DM. We encourage you, as the DM, to tightly limit the prestige classes available in your campaign. The example prestige classes are certainly not all-encompassing or definitive. They might not even be appropriate for your campaign. The best prestige classes for your campaign are the ones you tailor make yourself.(Emphasis added)

This is right in the Core books. It's not a house-rule for the DM to say "no spellcasting prestige classes" as the DMG says they're optional, and encourages them to be tightly controlled.

Mind you - this quote does not help in online debates - at all - as people simply come back "but everyone plays the game with PrC's", "Like it or not, PrC's are a normal part of character building" or similar.


Definitely. I still like my solution, though. Cast it once a month, Mr. Greater Deity might not mind (if he/she is one of the Good/Neutral ones). Once a week? Now you're probably starting to get irritating, and the Evil ones will probably start trying to get back. Or something. Every day? I doubt even the Good ones would hold back for long.
Player counter:
I'm contacting 30 different ones. The spell spans the multiverse. There's a lot of outer planes, and with all the published supplements, there's a lot of greater deities to contact.

It doesn't matter, mind - as NPC's, what it takes to annoy a greater deity of the outer planes is completely up to DM whimsey.

Sholos
2008-09-06, 12:10 AM
The most useful divination spells for planning are open to a rather lot of interpretation - and as the DM is the referee, this means they're open to a rather lot of DM whimsey.

Most batman builds assume a cooperative DM. For instance, most Batman builds spend quite a few levels on PrC classes, assuming they are trivially permitted. If you check the Dungeon Master's Guide, in the Presteige class header, there's a rather annoying paragraph (annoying for optimizers, anyway):

(Emphasis added)

This is right in the Core books. It's not a house-rule for the DM to say "no spellcasting prestige classes" as the DMG says they're optional, and encourages them to be tightly controlled.

Mind you - this quote does not help in online debates - at all - as people simply come back "but everyone plays the game with PrC's", "Like it or not, PrC's are a normal part of character building" or similar.

But everyone knows that DMs are purely there to make sure that the players have fun! If he's not letting them have their PrCs, they won't be having fun, and then he's a BAD DM. :smalltongue:



Player counter:
I'm contacting 30 different ones. The spell spans the multiverse. There's a lot of outer planes, and with all the published supplements, there's a lot of greater deities to contact.

It doesn't matter, mind - as NPC's, what it takes to annoy a greater deity of the outer planes is completely up to DM whimsey.

Well, yes. I was just trying to give an in-game analyzation. Exactly how many greater deities are there? I only know of the Core ones. Then there's the fact that a lot of them probably wouldn't want to help you anyways. Afterall, what have you done for them recently?

Akimbo
2008-09-06, 02:56 PM
The most obvious answer is to just use Boccob or Vecna, depending on your character.

Generally speaking your Wizard should be advancing the agenda of one of these two deities. Boccob's portfolio is knowledge, and arcane magic, he has every reason to answer you if you are a standard good or neutral Wizard, and he literally knows everything.

If you are an Evil Wizard, then it doesn't take much to be advancing Vecna's agenda, and his portfolio is among other things, secrets, which is probably going to include most things you actually want to know.

Use Mystra instead of Boccob in FR, not quite as good, but a very high chance of helping you.

Sholos
2008-09-06, 06:05 PM
And if it's another Wizard moving against you? Boccob might help you, but I could see Vecna wanting to see who comes out on top.

Crow
2008-09-06, 07:25 PM
The most obvious answer is to just use Boccob or Vecna, depending on your character.

Generally speaking your Wizard should be advancing the agenda of one of these two deities. Boccob's portfolio is knowledge, and arcane magic, he has every reason to answer you if you are a standard good or neutral Wizard, and he literally knows everything.

If you are an Evil Wizard, then it doesn't take much to be advancing Vecna's agenda, and his portfolio is among other things, secrets, which is probably going to include most things you actually want to know.

Use Mystra instead of Boccob in FR, not quite as good, but a very high chance of helping you.

Do they know the future?

edit: With some of the builds out there, none of those dieties may want to help you since you're going to supplant them in one more level! :smallwink:

Yahzi
2008-09-06, 07:39 PM
Basically, though, you do something akin to asking index questions -
Or my old favorite - Divine Bisection.

Buy a map. Rip it in half. Hold one half in your hand.

Cast Commune.

As the following question: "Is there a million-gold piece gem in the area represented by this piece of map?"

If the answer is no, throw away your piece of the map, and replace it with the other one. If the answer is yes, keep your piece of the map. In either case, rip your current map piece in half, and repeat the question.

Repeat the question, and the process. You can reduce a 1,000 sq. kilometer area to a 2 sq. kilometer area in one casting. With two or three castings, you can find the location of a million-gp gem anywhere in the world. Then, all you have to do is steal it, and you're 20th level.

Of course, you can use the process for other, less exciting problems, like "Where is the bad guy hiding" or "Where is the secret weapon that renders the dragon helpless."

Akimbo
2008-09-06, 08:02 PM
Okay. I give up. I can explain that you have a 99% chance of getting the right answer, or that there are several deities that have very good reason to help you, or any number of things, but you know what, it's useless.

Because all you want to do is jump on every possible little thing and claim that Contact Other Plane doesn't do exactly what it says it does.

What the hell do you think people use Contact Other Plane for? If you don't know what they are going to ask then why do you feel so confident in saying that none of the infinite deities in the multiverse would ever answer their question.

You have no idea what the question is.

Crow
2008-09-06, 08:05 PM
Okay. I give up. I can explain that you have a 99% chance of getting the right answer, or that there are several deities that have very good reason to help you, or any number of things, but you know what, it's useless.

Because all you want to do is jump on every possible little thing and claim that Contact Other Plane doesn't do exactly what it says it does.

What the hell do you think people use Contact Other Plane for? If you don't know what they are going to ask then why do you feel so confident in saying that none of the infinite deities in the multiverse would ever answer their question.

You have no idea what the question is.

Whoa now, don't throw a fit. :smallsmile:

Eldritch_Ent
2008-09-06, 08:09 PM
You guys DO realize that having the greater deities being annoyed isn't RAW outside of the will save to avoid being "Struck down", right?

Also Crow, I really wouldn't classify Akimbo as "having a fit", more like being annoyed at Sholos house rules...

Crow
2008-09-06, 08:25 PM
You guys DO realize that having the greater deities being annoyed isn't RAW outside of the will save to avoid being "Struck down", right?

You are correct. Though the source you ask knowing the future isn't RAW either.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-06, 08:28 PM
You guys DO realize that having the greater deities being annoyed isn't RAW outside of the will save to avoid being "Struck down", right?

Also Crow, I really wouldn't classify Akimbo as "having a fit", more like being annoyed at Sholos house rules...
It's actually in the spell that they resent the contact - hence the one-word answers.

It's also specified in the spell that you're contacting an actual creature that exists somewhere, that is not one of the PC's.

All creatures that are not PC's are in the DM's purview on what actions they take.

If someone is repeatedly using Contact Other Plane, eventually, something will get annoyed enough to do something about it. Possibly sending a big nasty, possibly invoking the clause that deities can block the spell.

No, it's not spelled out in the spell description per se, but it is RAW.


Okay. I give up. I can explain that you have a 99% chance of getting the right answer, or that there are several deities that have very good reason to help you, or any number of things, but you know what, it's useless.

Because all you want to do is jump on every possible little thing and claim that Contact Other Plane doesn't do exactly what it says it does.

What the hell do you think people use Contact Other Plane for? If you don't know what they are going to ask then why do you feel so confident in saying that none of the infinite deities in the multiverse would ever answer their question.

You have no idea what the question is.
You misunderstand my intent; this is "things the DM can do without actually altering the rules if someone is attempting to use the spell to break the game"

It's also "No, this does not make the Wizard invulnerable"

Zeful
2008-09-06, 09:01 PM
Okay. I give up. I can explain that you have a 99% chance of getting the right answer, or that there are several deities that have very good reason to help you, or any number of things, but you know what, it's useless.
Yes and you've done a very good job doing so. However the spell itself has several factors that mitigate these points.
1.) The personality of the God you're contacting affects it's Truth/Lies/Unkown/Random Table. Baccob for instance, will have a 5% spread between his Unkown and Random answer sections because he's a god of knowledge. While Cyric the Mad from FR being a god of lies will never give true answers, ever.
2.) The god can choose not to answer the call. The spell itself says it's a rare event however. Calling up every couple of days to ask many questions about people that you may not even meet that day would get on the nerves of the most patient of beings.
3.) The number of Gods is determined by the DM and/or setting. These numbers only change at DM discretion. So it's possible, by playing Batman to the Hilt, to piss off every deity enough to ignore you.


Because all you want to do is jump on every possible little thing and claim that Contact Other Plane doesn't do exactly what it says it does.

What the hell do you think people use Contact Other Plane for? If you don't know what they are going to ask then why do you feel so confident in saying that none of the infinite deities in the multiverse would ever answer their question.

You have no idea what the question is.
A lot of the questions seem require that the deity be able to see into the future, which may or may not be possible according to the DM. So yes Batman Wizard as described by the Character Op community (read as: theoretical optimizers everywhere) works. In theory. But in practice it comes down to how each individual DM sees the spell. We all read the same description but come out with different views. Mr. X looks at the spell and sees a powerful, but limited tool, while Mr. Y sees the potential to know everything about any given encounter. I myself will be the first to admit that no god in my games is capable of seeing into the future with the clarity required by the questions, and that includes any gods of the future (whose job would be insuring there is a future, not what that future is).

Kyeudo
2008-09-06, 09:23 PM
Yes and you've done a very good job doing so. However the spell itself has several factors that mitigate these points.


You asked for the RAW power of divinations, not how it would work in play. You always have to adjust for your DM's play style, which cripples alot of things, like Diplomacy.

streakster
2008-09-06, 09:33 PM
Yes and you've done a very good job doing so. However the spell itself has several factors that mitigate these points.
1.) The personality of the God you're contacting affects it's Truth/Lies/Unkown/Random Table. Baccob for instance, will have a 5% spread between his Unkown and Random answer sections because he's a god of knowledge. While Cyric the Mad from FR being a god of lies will never give true answers, ever.
2.) The god can choose not to answer the call. The spell itself says it's a rare event however. Calling up every couple of days to ask many questions about people that you may not even meet that day would get on the nerves of the most patient of beings.
3.) The number of Gods is determined by the DM and/or setting. These numbers only change at DM discretion. So it's possible, by playing Batman to the Hilt, to piss off every deity enough to ignore you.


A lot of the questions seem require that the deity be able to see into the future, which may or may not be possible according to the DM. So yes Batman Wizard as described by the Character Op community (read as: theoretical optimizers everywhere) works. In theory. But in practice it comes down to how each individual DM sees the spell. We all read the same description but come out with different views. Mr. X looks at the spell and sees a powerful, but limited tool, while Mr. Y sees the potential to know everything about any given encounter. I myself will be the first to admit that no god in my games is capable of seeing into the future with the clarity required by the questions, and that includes any gods of the future (whose job would be insuring there is a future, not what that future is).

The DM is irrelevant. We don't know what he does. All we know, and all we can do, is tell you how it works by the RAW. And, by the RAW, it works as the people in this thread have told you. The spell does not say that a god of madness will offer lies. It does not say that the gods appear to smite you, that they will not answer you, or that there is a limit on how often you may use it before you annoy them too much.

In practice, of course it depends on your DM. That's ridiculously obvious. But, RAW, it works as we have been saying. Most sane DM's will nerf it at least slightly. As Kyeudo said, they'll do that to Diplomacy too. That's fine, and makes for a good game. But we can't know what houserules your DM will institute.

Arguing that it's not powerful because your DM can houserule it means nothing. He's the DM. He can houserule whatever he likes.

Serenity
2008-09-06, 09:36 PM
According to Deities and Demigods, all gods can see into the future and the pasts, Greater Deities for periods of up to months or years.

Just saying.

Zeful
2008-09-06, 09:46 PM
EDIT: Yes but only in relation to events that effect their portfolios.

From the SRD description of Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm).


Once the Outer Planes are reached, the power of the deity contacted determines the effects. (Random results obtained from the table are subject to the personalities of individual deities.)

So yes Cyric the Mad will tell you noting that is true. Baccob will rarely answer "I don't know" etc.

Akimbo
2008-09-06, 09:46 PM
Yes and you've done a very good job doing so. However the spell itself has several factors that mitigate these points.
1.) The personality of the God you're contacting affects it's Truth/Lies/Unkown/Random Table. Baccob for instance, will have a 5% spread between his Unkown and Random answer sections because he's a god of knowledge. While Cyric the Mad from FR being a god of lies will never give true answers, ever.
2.) The god can choose not to answer the call. The spell itself says it's a rare event however. Calling up every couple of days to ask many questions about people that you may not even meet that day would get on the nerves of the most patient of beings.
3.) The number of Gods is determined by the DM and/or setting. These numbers only change at DM discretion. So it's possible, by playing Batman to the Hilt, to piss off every deity enough to ignore you.


A lot of the questions seem require that the deity be able to see into the future, which may or may not be possible according to the DM. So yes Batman Wizard as described by the Character Op community (read as: theoretical optimizers everywhere) works. In theory. But in practice it comes down to how each individual DM sees the spell. We all read the same description but come out with different views. Mr. X looks at the spell and sees a powerful, but limited tool, while Mr. Y sees the potential to know everything about any given encounter. I myself will be the first to admit that no god in my games is capable of seeing into the future with the clarity required by the questions, and that includes any gods of the future (whose job would be insuring there is a future, not what that future is).

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!

Guess what. NONE OF THAT MATTERS! Not because of RAW, not because of rules, but because everything you say is based off of NOTHING.

What does the person ask? How often do they ask? Who do they ask?

You are making up answers to all these questions that don't matter because no one does that.

No one in the entire thread has claimed that Wizard's find out exactly what all their encounters are in advance, or that they cast it three times a day every day for their entire life, or that they are asking Cyric, or a random god, or someone who doesn't like them.

A Wizard asks important questions using Contact Other Plane that he needs to know the answer to in order to further his goals. He asks these questions of a God who wholeheartedly supports his goals.

How often does he ask? That depends on the character, and the campaign.

But when Heroinous says, "No, I won't tell you where that artifact of Hextor is, the one my Cleric asked you to recover and help him destroy." You turn around and ask him if that guys is really his Cleric, because Heronious has an Int score greater then 5, and so doesn't purposefully try to screw over people who are trying to help him.

streakster
2008-09-06, 09:50 PM
From the SRD description of Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm).



So yes Cyric the Mad will tell you noting that is true. Baccob will rarely answer "I don't know" etc.

The power of the deity determines what category you roll on the table. The higher the power, the lower you go on the table. Nowhere does it say "Oh yes, and this one lies all the time". Yes, their personality influences it. That doesn't mean I can't pick one that likes me, and my goals, and knows a lot.

Also, off-topic, a god that lies ALL the time would be greatly abusable.

monty
2008-09-06, 09:52 PM
Also, off-topic, a god that lies ALL the time would be greatly abusable.

Yeah, that would make it pretty easy.

"Is this the guy I'm supposed to kill?"
"No."
*kill*

Zeful
2008-09-06, 10:04 PM
So a simple inqury to determine the exact power and usefulness of divination spells based on how their proported to be used by the Wizards Win At Everything group doesn't work because they don't actually cast the spell in a actual play right? That's what your saying? I don't care if it's highly situational I want examples. I've gotten one throughout the entire lifetime of this thread and it was a bad example. So unless all the questions are going to be that easy to take apart it's no wonder people don't cast this spell.


It says random result are based off Deity personality. It's a vauge statement that can mean many things. My reading is just one interpretation of that. A lying god is no more abusable than one who knows everything.

Akimbo
2008-09-06, 10:12 PM
So a simple inqury to determine the exact power and usefulness of divination spells based on how their proported to be used by the Wizards Win At Everything group doesn't work because they don't actually cast the spell in a actual play right? That's what your saying? I don't care if it's highly situational I want examples. I've gotten one throughout the entire lifetime of this thread and it was a bad example. So unless all the questions are going to be that easy to take apart it's no wonder people don't cast this spell.\

No, people cast it in play to find out things they need or want to find out, instead of casting it and then telling the DM to just hand over their notes.

I haven't played a single campaign over level 12 where COP hasn't been used. Because once you start dealing with things that are important, it helps to be able to get the answer you need.

jcsw
2008-09-06, 10:25 PM
He means you don't cast it often enough to piss off deities, not a smart wizard at least.

You wait for the opportunities that would reap the most benefits from the least amount of annoyance to the deity.

1. Since we're talking about pissing the deity off (Okay I can't remember who said it, so maybe it wasn't you), which isn't in RAW, you can also try to please the deity.
In a real game, you may try to, for example, ask the deity whose cleric is in your party, or cash in on favors done (through your previous quests). If a DM would rule that you can piss off the deity enough to make him purposely lie to you, or ignore you, he would certainly rule that you can please the deity in order to get you a better chance of getting successful answers.

2. It's rather a moot point to bring up deities of lies and trickery, why would an intelligent wizard trust information from a deity which is known as a deity of trickery? Obviously you should pick deities whom are more trustworthy.

3. He didn't mean you never actually cast it, he meant you only cast it when it's necessary. Just like how you don't cast a shield spell for just any battle, since it uses resources (time), you cast it in cases where it will be useful, (against boss battles/ranged intelligent enemies who will aim at wizards first). In the same way, you don't waste resources on every potential battle, you use it when you need to, like when a mysterious character is murdering the townspeople, or you're planning a siege on the BBEG's castle. In all things use moderation.

EDIT: NINJA'D

Griffin131
2008-09-06, 10:56 PM
It says random result are based off Deity personality. It's a vauge statement that can mean many things. My reading is just one interpretation of that. A lying god is no more abusable than one who knows everything.
No, its not vague at all. The result of the question can be accurate, inaccurate, or random. Only random answers are influenced. The other two are not colored by the entity's personality.

streakster
2008-09-06, 10:57 PM
Hokay. Demonstration of Divination? Sure.

I and my party am going in a dungeon tommorrow. I want to be able to prepare.

I'll start with a quick Prying Eyes. My orders, simple enough, are to "Enter the dungeon. Spread out. Follow movement. Return in 1/2 hour, or if seen."

They return. They saw zombies. COP time.

"Is a creature or spell responsible for raising these beings?" It's a one-word question.

It's a spell! Time to ask for the caster's name. I'll also ask for more info, now, too. Shame to let a COP go to waste. Things I could ask are his location, whether's he's living or dead or undead, his weakest save "What is weaker - his reflexes, his will, or his body" - it goes on.

Time to Scry! One quick scry later, I see a lich. Look like COP was right about him. From his surroundings, he's in the dungeon.

If I want, now I errorcheck. That lich might not be in *this* dungeon, afterall. Another order of COP, please!

COP agrees he is in this dungeon, and, as a bonus, I probably have his specialist school now - Illusion.

Now, this is hardly foolproof. I'm an amateur - get one of the greats in here to see it done in style - and I just worked with core. I also only gave myself one day to work with. There are spots for errors, of course. But now I know I'm facing the undead, with a lich leader who most likely specializes in illusion. I'll prepare against casters, undead, and illusionists, and whatever my Eyes might have seen in their travels that might be trouble. (There were undead with bows? Wind wall.)

The next day, I'll be shreddin' the dead, True Seeing through the illusions, and countering the lich's spells. That's the power of Divinations.

Crow
2008-09-06, 11:02 PM
Hokay. Demonstration of Divination? Sure.

I and my party am going in a dungeon tommorrow. I want to be able to prepare.

I'll start with a quick Prying Eyes. My orders, simple enough, are to "Enter the dungeon. Spread out. Follow movement. Return in 1/2 hour, or if seen."

They return. They saw zombies. COP time.

"Is a creature or spell responsible for raising these beings?" It's a one-word question.

It's a spell! Time to ask for the caster's name. I'll also ask for more info, now, too. Shame to let a COP go to waste. Things I could ask are his location, whether's he's living or dead or undead, his weakest save "What is weaker - his reflexes, his will, or his body" - it goes on.

Time to Scry! One quick scry later, I see a lich. Look like COP was right about him. From his surroundings, he's in the dungeon.

If I want, now I errorcheck. That lich might not be in *this* dungeon, afterall. Another order of COP, please!

COP agrees he is in this dungeon, and, as a bonus, I probably have his specialist school now - Illusion.

Now, this is hardly foolproof. I'm an amateur - get one of the greats in here to see it done in style - and I just worked with core. I also only gave myself one day to work with. There are spots for errors, of course. But now I know I'm facing the undead, with a lich leader who most likely specializes in illusion. I'll prepare against casters, undead, and illusionists, and whatever my Eyes might have seen in their travels that might be trouble. (There were undead with bows? Wind wall.)

The next day, I'll be shreddin' the dead, True Seeing through the illusions, and countering the lich's spells. That's the power of Divinations.

Very nice.

Zeful
2008-09-07, 01:22 AM
Hokay. Demonstration of Divination? Sure.

I and my party am going in a dungeon tommorrow. I want to be able to prepare.

I'll start with a quick Prying Eyes. My orders, simple enough, are to "Enter the dungeon. Spread out. Follow movement. Return in 1/2 hour, or if seen."

They return. They saw zombies. COP time.

"Is a creature or spell responsible for raising these beings?" It's a one-word question.

It's a spell! Time to ask for the caster's name. I'll also ask for more info, now, too. Shame to let a COP go to waste. Things I could ask are his location, whether's he's living or dead or undead, his weakest save "What is weaker - his reflexes, his will, or his body" - it goes on.

Time to Scry! One quick scry later, I see a lich. Look like COP was right about him. From his surroundings, he's in the dungeon.

If I want, now I errorcheck. That lich might not be in *this* dungeon, afterall. Another order of COP, please!

COP agrees he is in this dungeon, and, as a bonus, I probably have his specialist school now - Illusion.

Now, this is hardly foolproof. I'm an amateur - get one of the greats in here to see it done in style - and I just worked with core. I also only gave myself one day to work with. There are spots for errors, of course. But now I know I'm facing the undead, with a lich leader who most likely specializes in illusion. I'll prepare against casters, undead, and illusionists, and whatever my Eyes might have seen in their travels that might be trouble. (There were undead with bows? Wind wall.)

The next day, I'll be shreddin' the dead, True Seeing through the illusions, and countering the lich's spells. That's the power of Divinations.

I see. There will always be a margin for error, but when properly prepared, that error isn't likely to be fatal, inconvenient and annoying more likely. This clears it up very well.

mostlyharmful
2008-09-07, 03:32 AM
Two things to bear in mind when using divinations (as I'm sure all DMs will agree) are that

1. Although the world is suppossed to be internally coherent there's a good likelyhood that any one particular part is still in flux depending on how prepared the DM is.
What I mean by that is it's fine and frudey to use COP for the above lich example since that dungeon is clearly already very well fleshed out in advance of the PCs, it's that the more general and abstract the questions become the harder it is for any actual flesh and blood person across the table from you to have an answer for it beforehand rather than pulling something out of their ass.
Not that I'm not a fan of ass-pulls when the situation demands it, it often helps create situations that everyone finds surprising and enjoyable, simply that your milage may vary not due to cunning underhandedness but just human error.

2. Lots of these (COP being the prime example) start looking across time as well as space and in the easiest conception of how time works in game a PCs actions can change what they learn about (it's also the most fun version so expect it in most games). Note also that powerful NPCs with information about the PCs actions are liable to alter what they do as well so your actions may have consequences that are not immediately obvious.
To use the above example again it wouldn't be outside the realms of possibility that the Lich Illusionist was able to detect the Scrying or the Prying Eyes and responded with some info gathering of their own.


Theoretically Divination is by far and away the strongest school outside direct combat but it can never be completely implemented due to human error in world design and multiplying consequences of it's use. Still funky-ass-cool though.:smallcool:

Sholos
2008-09-07, 03:47 AM
Hokay. Demonstration of Divination? Sure.

I and my party am going in a dungeon tommorrow. I want to be able to prepare.

I'll start with a quick Prying Eyes. My orders, simple enough, are to "Enter the dungeon. Spread out. Follow movement. Return in 1/2 hour, or if seen."

They return. They saw zombies. COP time.

"Is a creature or spell responsible for raising these beings?" It's a one-word question.

It's a spell! Time to ask for the caster's name. I'll also ask for more info, now, too. Shame to let a COP go to waste. Things I could ask are his location, whether's he's living or dead or undead, his weakest save "What is weaker - his reflexes, his will, or his body" - it goes on.

Time to Scry! One quick scry later, I see a lich. Look like COP was right about him. From his surroundings, he's in the dungeon.

If I want, now I errorcheck. That lich might not be in *this* dungeon, afterall. Another order of COP, please!

COP agrees he is in this dungeon, and, as a bonus, I probably have his specialist school now - Illusion.

Now, this is hardly foolproof. I'm an amateur - get one of the greats in here to see it done in style - and I just worked with core. I also only gave myself one day to work with. There are spots for errors, of course. But now I know I'm facing the undead, with a lich leader who most likely specializes in illusion. I'll prepare against casters, undead, and illusionists, and whatever my Eyes might have seen in their travels that might be trouble. (There were undead with bows? Wind wall.)

The next day, I'll be shreddin' the dead, True Seeing through the illusions, and countering the lich's spells. That's the power of Divinations.

Meanwhile, the lich learns about some pesky adventurers that are going to be in his lair the next day....

Don't forget, enemy spellcasters have access to CoP just like you.

That's actually a good question. How does one deal with the enemy knowing about the party because of CoP?

BobVosh
2008-09-07, 03:53 AM
Hokay. Demonstration of Divination? Sure.

I and my party am going in a dungeon tommorrow. I want to be able to prepare.

I'll start with a quick Prying Eyes. My orders, simple enough, are to "Enter the dungeon. Spread out. Follow movement. Return in 1/2 hour, or if seen."

They return. They saw zombies. COP time.

"Is a creature or spell responsible for raising these beings?" It's a one-word question.

It's a spell! Time to ask for the caster's name. I'll also ask for more info, now, too. Shame to let a COP go to waste. Things I could ask are his location, whether's he's living or dead or undead, his weakest save "What is weaker - his reflexes, his will, or his body" - it goes on.

Time to Scry! One quick scry later, I see a lich. Look like COP was right about him. From his surroundings, he's in the dungeon.

If I want, now I errorcheck. That lich might not be in *this* dungeon, afterall. Another order of COP, please!

COP agrees he is in this dungeon, and, as a bonus, I probably have his specialist school now - Illusion.

Now, this is hardly foolproof. I'm an amateur - get one of the greats in here to see it done in style - and I just worked with core. I also only gave myself one day to work with. There are spots for errors, of course. But now I know I'm facing the undead, with a lich leader who most likely specializes in illusion. I'll prepare against casters, undead, and illusionists, and whatever my Eyes might have seen in their travels that might be trouble. (There were undead with bows? Wind wall.)

The next day, I'll be shreddin' the dead, True Seeing through the illusions, and countering the lich's spells. That's the power of Divinations.

Spoiled to prevent epic quote length.

Not that I disapprove or question your methods, but couldn't you have learned all that before going in? Probably from whoever sent you to this place?

Evocations and Illusions pretty much mean anyone can tell you about those two schools being used to terrorize/etc. Although it could just be those silly quest lines where you have no real reason except that they are undead.

mostlyharmful
2008-09-07, 03:54 AM
Meanwhile, the lich learns about some pesky adventurers that are going to be in his lair the next day....

Don't forget, enemy spellcasters have access to CoP just like you.

That's actually a good question. How does one deal with the enemy knowing about the party because of CoP?

It ensures the power of Divination even more firmly since all fights boil down to expected or unexpected. If a party or an NPC doesn't have access to fullcaster levels of divination they're screwed six ways till sunday, if they do then they're viable to survive. It also makes any DnD world very, very standoffish since one of the things Div lets you learn is when people are at their strongist and when they're at their weakist so no-one wants to go first.

Bare in mind that this sort of mentality is only available to those who can be really smart about how they adventure and really, really paranoid (ie they don't have much anything else to do with their time). Most BBEGs and PCs lack the mental attribute scores for the first and most divine casters fall at the second since they receive their powers through serving something else on a regular basis. Guess who that leaves to spend their time on this routinely?:smallamused:

BobVosh
2008-09-07, 04:01 AM
It ensures the power of Divination even more firmly since all fights boil down to expected or unexpected. If a party or an NPC doesn't have access to fullcaster levels of divination they're screwed six ways till sunday, if they do then they're viable to survive. It also makes any DnD world very, very standoffish since one of the things Div lets you learn is when people are at their strongist and when they're at their weakist so no-one wants to go first.

Bare in mind that this sort of mentality is only available to those who can be really smart about how they adventure and really, really paranoid (ie they don't have much anything else to do with their time). Most BBEGs and PCs lack the mental attribute scores for the first and most divine casters fall at the second since they receive their powers through serving something else on a regular basis. Guess who that leaves to spend their time on this routinely?:smallamused:

Duh-na-na-na-na-na-na-na Batmaaaaaan! BATMAN!

Just a hint. :biggrin:

mostlyharmful
2008-09-07, 04:09 AM
Duh-na-na-na-na-na-na-na Batmaaaaaan! BATMAN!

Just a hint. :biggrin:

Now, now. I wasn't jumping to conclusions, just saying that the Divination game goes to fullcasters with really high stats that have the time to be paranoid and OCD about their prep-work. Also that whoever knows more than their opponent has a very real advantage. See, no "Batman" involved:smallbiggrin:

Akimbo
2008-09-07, 04:10 AM
Meanwhile, the lich learns about some pesky adventurers that are going to be in his lair the next day....

Don't forget, enemy spellcasters have access to CoP just like you.

That's actually a good question. How does one deal with the enemy knowing about the party because of CoP?

If the enemy is likely to use it, then they do. It's not like it's hard to take into account.

For example, any Lich I DMed would have some form of intelligent creature that would have noticed the Prying Eyes and reported back, at which point, CoP, followed by Scrying.

Also, remember to have in your CoP questions whether someone is protected from scrying, since it might save you a spell, and even more important might save you from making a couple immediate will save or dies.

streakster
2008-09-07, 08:24 AM
Also, remember to have in your CoP questions whether someone is protected from scrying, since it might save you a spell, and even more important might save you from making a couple immediate will save or dies.

Good point. Told you I was an amateur.:smallsmile:

Jack_Simth
2008-09-07, 12:17 PM
I'll start with a quick Prying Eyes. My orders, simple enough, are to "Enter the dungeon. Spread out. Follow movement. Return in 1/2 hour, or if seen."

None of them come back.
They all fell to the same auto-reset area-effect Fireball trap near the entrance (a CR 4 trap, as it's based on a 3rd level spell) that had a "Detect Magic" targetting.

streakster
2008-09-07, 12:32 PM
None of them come back.
They all fell to the same auto-reset area-effect Fireball trap near the entrance (a CR 4 trap, as it's based on a 3rd level spell) that had a "Detect Magic" targetting.

You think a mere hypothetical will stop me? Hah! Have at thee! Unbased hypothetical situations, away!

They do come back, because the DM went and got some more pizza in the middle of this, and was too confused to remember his trap! And then, the lich falls into that trap on accident (triggered by an amulet he's wearing) and dies! And my prying eyes see this! And then we go loot the body! And find a million gold pieces! And buy ponies! And Pelor shows up, and he's all like "Dude, you're so awesome! Have all my divine powers, bro!" and I'm like "Cool!" And then I totally pwnzor Asmodeus by dual-wielding Tarrasque-chucks, and....

See, hypotheticals like that are fun, but don't add much to the discussion. Now, more seriously, if you were trying to say that traps could be an obstacle, sure. Good point. But then I know there's something there. Cue the COP! "Was the cause of the destruction of my eyes a trap, a spell, a creature, or an accident?" I learn its a trap, I ask for the name of who set said trap, and I'm off again.

Crow
2008-09-07, 12:59 PM
...And then I totally pwnzor Asmodeus by dual-wielding Tarrasque-chucks, and....


This reminds me of a thread I saw at the WotC boards once. Man, that place was ridiculous sometimes...

Yahzi
2008-09-07, 01:22 PM
Not that I disapprove or question your methods, but couldn't you have learned all that before going in? Probably from whoever sent you to this place?
If you're still taking orders from somebody else when you can cast CoP, then there's something wrong. At that level you're supposed to be self-motivated and self-directed; an independent contractor, not an employee.

busterswd
2008-09-07, 01:39 PM
Much as infinite chicken doom tickles my fancy, there's one significant flaw with the plan: the commoner will encase himself in chicken before he even comes close to filling the universe. Movement for anyone is not a free, instant action.

Chronos
2008-09-07, 03:12 PM
Yeah, that would make it pretty easy.

"Is this the guy I'm supposed to kill?"
"No."
*kill*Alternately:

"Is this the guy I'm supposed to kill?"
"Applesauce!"
"Huh?"