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Frosty
2008-09-04, 11:03 PM
In the campaign I'm running, I've bene trying to figure out what the final BBEG should be. More and more plotwise there will be lots of things related to Time, time travel, and the timeline. So I figured that the BBEG should be a Phane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane).

My campaign will end at level 20 most likely, and I wonder how possible is it for 4 characters, ranging from unoptimized (a Dragon Shaman) to DMM cleric to defeat a Phane. The party also has a Warblade (a newbie player who likes hitting stuff hard to do damage) and a Wizard (likes blasting, but I've been trying to introduce him to Batman ideas. He does NOT use any metamagic reducers).

My first instinct is that the Phane will eat them alive even though according to the CR system, this is winnable (if unlikely) battle. I really want one as the BBEG, so I'm thinking it's possible I have to tone it down or maybe give my spellcasters infinite spells, and give my Warblade unlimited uses of Maneuvers, and I'm not sure what to do with the dragon shaman.

Do you think it's possible or am I foolish for thinking a non-epic party can take on this abomination?

The campaign is a high-wealth one. At least 50% above normal WBL.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 11:09 PM
Ya, probably, though the CR for that thing is unrealistic. Most CR's in the Epic Level Hand Book are unrealistic

Crow
2008-09-04, 11:11 PM
I think they can take it.

Frosty
2008-09-04, 11:12 PM
I have no idea how EPIC play and CR itneracts,namely because I know almost nothing about epic spellcasting.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-04, 11:32 PM
I have no idea how EPIC play and CR itneracts,namely because I know almost nothing about epic spellcasting.
Per the OP, no need to worry about Epic Spellcasting - party expects to end the campaign at 20th. It's just a low-epic monster.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-09-04, 11:38 PM
You could always make it a weaker, smaller Phane without the crazy Epic "Suck or Lose" abilities...

Frosty
2008-09-04, 11:40 PM
Per the OP, no need to worry about Epic Spellcasting - party expects to end the campaign at 20th. It's just a low-epic monster.

Right. I'm not allowing epic spellcasting. I'm worried that the CR assumes Epic Spellcasting is in the hands of PCs.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-09-04, 11:46 PM
It does, along with epic feats, saves, and WBL- (Which is wayyy more than +50% WBL.)

Deepblue706
2008-09-04, 11:47 PM
If the Warblade gets access to crazy damage, the Wizard can batman just right, the DMM Cleric gets the proper spells, and the Dragon Shaman, uh, has the right magical items, they might be able to take him. But, if you really want them to have a chance at taking him on, I think you should train them how to fight one of these suckers before having them fight the real thing.

Frosty
2008-09-04, 11:50 PM
But I want to have some of it remain mysterious. It's no fun going into the final battle knowing exactly what you're up against. I'll be dropping some hints at its abilities, but they're not going to be reading the monster entry before the fight. Given that, how much weaker do I need to make it?

tyckspoon
2008-09-05, 12:05 AM
Right. I'm not allowing epic spellcasting. I'm worried that the CR assumes Epic Spellcasting is in the hands of PCs.

The default spells of Epic Spellcasting also kinda suck. Very few of them are worth the money and XP it would take to develop them, let alone cast them for the ones that have XP and/or backlash costs. They're more useful for showing off to non-Epic creatures than they are for actually fighting Epic monsters; I wouldn't worry about the lack of it. My advice would be to just let your party get ahold of some Epic magic items, especially Cloaks of Resistance and Epic magic weapons for your more physically-inclined characters. The saves against Stasis Touch and Null Time Field (29 Fort 30 Will, respectively) are going to be their biggest problems; if they can save against those with a reasonable success rate they'll probably be able to beat down a Phane if they're smart about buffing (like.. True Strike. Lots and lots of True Strike.)

You may want to refrain from having the Phane use its own epic spells. Safe Time would negate an otherwise effective strike and Time Duplicate gets the party tag-teamed for a round.. on the other hand, both spells offer a breather round if the party survives, which would be a good chance to add buffs or recover anybody who was in stasis.

Deepblue706
2008-09-05, 12:11 AM
Well, the fact it can move so damn well makes it tough to combat. 120 fly, and it can haste if it feels the need - that's darn fast.

It's got True Seeing at will, you can't use magic to hide (His spot is over +40 anyway, tho, so mundane probably won't work either). It's got immunity to all forms of ability damage, has super-saves, that SR is rough, and Null Time Field is pretty damn nasty.

Are you letting anyone take Leadership?

Frosty
2008-09-05, 12:14 AM
Cloaks of resistance are not epic as far as I know, unless you mean getting them to provide more than +5 in protection?

I wouldn't say no to leadership, but none of them have it.

And how is the Wizard going to hit it? Even with a +9 BAB, +3 Dex bonus, and +20 Insight (from True Strike), hitting that 50 Touch AC will be tough.

imperialspectre
2008-09-05, 12:14 AM
You'll need a lot of nerfing. The Phane is a pretty tough CR 25--for comparison, I'd say that a Solar isn't nearly as brutal (doesn't have any "you don't do anything" abilities with DCs in the stratosphere, and it doesn't have Time Stop-but-way-more-brokenly-awesome), and it's a CR 23. If everyone in the party was as good as a heavily-optimized Clericzilla and really good Batman, the PCs could probably take it, but it would take extraordinarily good planning and preparation. Or a Planar Shepherd, which I assume isn't allowed.

If you're going to try to bring the BBEG down to the party's level, I'd suggest keeping the basic creature, but removing the most devastating special attacks/abilities. Eliminating the Null Time Field and Time Regression, and making the Stasis Touch special available a certain number of times/day instead of at-will would probably make the phane beatable by a strong 20th-level party.

As a note, in this particular case, the phane's incorporeality and abomination traits make traditional Batman tactics much less optimal than they usually are. Nobody is going to make the Phane save-or-else, and battlefield control magic is decidedly suboptimal when the enemy is incorporeal. The lack of metamagic reducers makes the tactic I'd go for--straight up Orb of X (probably force) nuking--less easy, but still probably good in combination with buffing friendlies.

As long as the Warblade has a magic weapon (obvious, I know) s/he should be able to contribute. Does the Warblade have either Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw 9th-levels?

The Cleric is in the same boat as the Warblade, except with DMM cheese. Enough said.

I don't have any idea how to help a Dragon Shaman. Actually, I'm not entirely sure how the Dragon Shaman has survived this long. Is the player unusually creative with that class?

Frosty
2008-09-05, 12:29 AM
You'll need a lot of nerfing. The Phane is a pretty tough CR 25--for comparison, I'd say that a Solar isn't nearly as brutal (doesn't have any "you don't do anything" abilities with DCs in the stratosphere, and it doesn't have Time Stop-but-way-more-brokenly-awesome), and it's a CR 23. If everyone in the party was as good as a heavily-optimized Clericzilla and really good Batman, the PCs could probably take it, but it would take extraordinarily good planning and preparation. Or a Planar Shepherd, which I assume isn't allowed.
The Clericzilla isn't even heavily optimized. He just uses Personal buffs to become a good melee-er. Nothing game-shattering in the face of a Phane. And yeah, no Planar Shepherd...not that we have a druid in the party.



If you're going to try to bring the BBEG down to the party's level, I'd suggest keeping the basic creature, but removing the most devastating special attacks/abilities. Eliminating the Null Time Field and Time Regression, and making the Stasis Touch special available a certain number of times/day instead of at-will would probably make the phane beatable by a strong 20th-level party.
Since the BBEG will have all of its daily-use powers at the beginning of the fight, times/day isn't *that* different from at-will depending on how long the fight lasts. The Null Time Field does seem to screw over everyone but the Cleric, who can probably make the saving throws reliably. I'm actually confused about how Time Regression works. The Phane uses 4 turns to do nothing but concentrate on it, and then turns back time 4 turns? I assume this gives the party back their resourcres that they spent in the past 4 turns?



As a note, in this particular case, the phane's incorporeality and abomination traits make traditional Batman tactics much less optimal than they usually are. Nobody is going to make the Phane save-or-else, and battlefield control magic is decidedly suboptimal when the enemy is incorporeal. The lack of metamagic reducers makes the tactic I'd go for--straight up Orb of X (probably force) nuking--less easy, but still probably good in combination with buffing friendlies.
I am definitely removing the incorporeality. Immunity to ability damage is not a huge deal since I disallow things like Shivering Touch and Moonbolt, etc. But it might matter to the Warblade if he wants to do that one level 9 maneuver that does 2d6 Con damage. As for Orbs...how is the Wizard going to hit? Even a Quickened True Strike won't get the Wziard to hit a 50 touch AC.



As long as the Warblade has a magic weapon (obvious, I know) s/he should be able to contribute. Does the Warblade have either Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw 9th-levels?

The Cleric is in the same boat as the Warblade, except with DMM cheese. Enough said.

I don't have any idea how to help a Dragon Shaman. Actually, I'm not entirely sure how the Dragon Shaman has survived this long. Is the player unusually creative with that class?

The Warblade is focusing on Diamond Mind. They're not at level 20 yet. They're only at level 14. I am looking waaay into the future. The player is actually pretty suicidal and reckless with this character (he's RPing the character as he's supposed to with the character's personality). The way I've kept him alive is thru very occasional fudging of dice, even MORE wealth by level than the others, custom items, a custom PrC that he'll soon take I hope, a few extra feats here and there, and having Fighter BAB.

I mean, this is a Dragon Shaman who is going down the Two-weapon fighting route (I've condensed the TWF tree down into 2 feats) and spent half his feats on meta-breath feats. He needs to remember that he has the Power Attack feat as he was beating on a golem with enough DR to make all of his attacks mere tickles, and he kept attacking normally. The player's not new, but he's not playing optimally at all.

Jothki
2008-09-05, 12:41 AM
Instead of a concealed nerf, you might want to consider some sort of plot-based debuff that the players get to trigger before the battle.

Frosty
2008-09-05, 12:47 AM
That's definitely how I'd do it. The phane is the Aspect of a deity who wishes to destroy all life...and then take all the souls out of the time stream so no new life can be born. A strange deity who can somehow survive without worshippers. Or maybe it would put all souls in a permanent time stasis that only he can siphon power from.

There will be a plot event whereby the deity gets weakened, and so his Aspect gets weakened. The gods themselves take on the deity, and the PCs take on the aspect tomake sure all traces of it are destroyed.

imperialspectre
2008-09-05, 01:05 AM
Since the BBEG will have all of its daily-use powers at the beginning of the fight, times/day isn't *that* different from at-will depending on how long the fight lasts. The Null Time Field does seem to screw over everyone but the Cleric, who can probably make the saving throws reliably.

You're right on the times/day point, but this fight will probably end quickly only if it ends in a TPK. The Phane has too many immunities to one-shot it, and with over 600 hp it'll take a lot of direct damage. Probably three rounds' worth, with regen and everything.

The Warblade can probably ace a Will save with no problem the first couple times (Moment of Perfect Mind from Diamond Mind with Concentration maxed is +23 before Con bonus...DC 30's a cinch), but it'll get harder quickly, and the other two characters are just hosed. Worse, losing to the Null Time Field means the Stasis Touch apparently just auto-succeeds.


I'm actually confused about how Time Regression works. The Phane uses 4 turns to do nothing but concentrate on it, and then turns back time 4 turns? I assume this gives the party back their resourcres that they spent in the past 4 turns?

If I were running the Phane, I'd fly around at max hasted speed for 4 rounds, spending "an action" (I read that as a standard action, still being able to move, same as spells that require "concentration"). I would use that to get a good look at what the party was capable of doing and what their tactics would look like, thus giving me "in-game" knowledge of the enemy to use against them in the encounter. Also to screw with the party's heads by "rewinding."


I am definitely removing the incorporeality. Immunity to ability damage is not a huge deal since I disallow things like Shivering Touch and Moonbolt, etc. But it might matter to the Warblade if he wants to do that one level 9 maneuver that does 2d6 Con damage. As for Orbs...how is the Wizard going to hit? Even a Quickened True Strike won't get the Wziard to hit a 50 touch AC.

Incorporeality at the bottom--that has a bunch of different effects. As for the immunities, I'd probably just go for ray of exhaustion + ray of enfeeblement against a corporeal foe if they were vulnerable to that kind of thing. And the Warblade is better off going with the Diamond Mind 9th-level, 'cause full-attacking twice is a good way to hurt the BBEG badly.

As for incorporeality, that means the Phane's AC drops (it loses the deflection bonus from CHA, and I'm not sure where the insight bonus to AC comes from), it takes full damage from all weapons and spells, guaranteed, and you have to come up with a STR score for it, if only to determine melee touch attacks.

This means that the party will eat through HP much faster (two warblade full-attacks followed by a cleric full-attack with divine power and whatever else followed by an angry glare from the dragon shaman? no 50% chance to avoid damage? ouch). It also means the wizard suddenly has a chance to score touch attacks, and it further means that mean battlefield-control tactics are viable.

Lastly, I'm not sure how a wizard would have just a +3 DEX modifier at level 20. There's got to be a way to jack up touch attack bonuses. Additionally, if the Phane isn't incorporeal, it's touch AC is now 40. 9 BAB + 3 DEX + 20 TS means the wizard has to roll 8 to hit with that Empowered, Maximized Orb of Pain. Definitely a possibility.

And if the Dragon Shaman player is experienced, but not playing smart, I don't know what to do. I have the same problem with one of my players when I DM, and I've already had to come up with reasons why antagonists would want to revive his unconscious body and negotiate instead. So...I feel your pain. ;)

Akimbo
2008-09-05, 01:33 AM
1) Consider having the fight take place on a special Time Plane with regression happening constantly: IE his Stasis touch lasts only one round, spells return, maneuvers reset, ect.

2) Drop some insight bonus, that crap is really just there to take care of the fact that Wizards have Epic Spells that automatically get +40 to touch attacks for no reason except epic scaling.

AgentPaper
2008-09-05, 01:57 AM
A fight on a plane where time means nothing? Pure awesome. Skills are always ready, players (and the phane) randomly get extra actions or turns, spells take longer to do, or happen faster, or last longer. (an orb that hits, then hits him again and again, hey!) The phane gets some benefit from it as well, so it's not like you're cheesing the battle for your players, but since there's 4 of you and 1 of him, it would probably help your party more than the monster. Supporting factions (who the party has done quests for) giving epic artifact scale items to them would also go pretty far. Hey look, a bracer of +10 to touch attacks! A cloak of +15 Fortitude! A cap of +15 Will! An epic spell! Classic last-minute powerup, or you could start now and power them up as they get closer to the big baddie.

Frosty
2008-09-05, 01:59 AM
1) Consider having the fight take place on a special Time Plane with regression happening constantly: IE his Stasis touch lasts only one.

Wouldn't that mean HP resets every round or something?

imperialspectre: I'm thinking of removing its immunities to negative levels (the wizard won't be expecting to deal more than 6 negative levels a turn). Hmm...so with a touch AC of 40, the Wizard can hit semi-reliably but only with a True Strike. So every two turns unless the Wizard uses all his 5th level spells Quickening the True Strikes. And he doesn't even have Quicken Spell right now...

You really expect a Corporeal Phane to go down that quickly given its Null Time Field?

imperialspectre
2008-09-05, 02:19 AM
Null Time gets negated for the melee-ers in the first two rounds because it's extremely unlikely for the Cleric to fail the Will save (with no items, we have a +12 base save and probably a +8 ability modifier...add in a +5 Cloak of Resistance and spells, and we're in natural 1 to fail territory) and the Warblade should have Moment of Perfect Mind prepped at least once (I do it twice when I'm worried about Will saves and refresh if I have to). It's hardly unreasonable to expect the Cleric to do 100 points of damage in a round, and the Warblade should be able to do quite a bit better than that with a pair of full attacks, or a charge and then a full attack.

Basically, it becomes an issue of whether the Wizard can pin down the Phane long enough for the melee'ers to get there and do damage--after that, it's academic because the melee'ers will make their first Will saves and probably do close to half the Phane's hp in damage in the first round.

'Course, then the Phane can time stop and do fun stuff. If it does, though, it trades melee damage taken (through neutralizing a melee combatant) for negative levels, close to 100 points of direct damage, or debuffs from the wizard.

The Phane's other option is grabbing the Wizard's past self and unleashing hell on the party, which is both brutal and potentially fight-ending, depending on how good the Wizard is (at 20th level, it's an 18th-level duplicate...that's not significantly going to limit the Wizard's battle-altering capabilities).

I don't know, honestly. I think making the Phane corporeal and getting rid of Time Regression means that you'll have a big drag-out fight, it'll probably last four to six rounds, all said and done, and that unless the Phane summons a party member and employs them extremely well or the good guys really screw up some saves, the party will probably win.

Eliminate the Null Time Field as well and you basically put the fight completely under your control: the Phane no longer has passive save-or-suck abilities, and its active options are pretty varied--hit for 15d6, use SLA, grab a Time Duplicate, at least temporarily neutralize PC through stasis touch. If the PCs are doing well, hit them with something nasty; if they have a couple bad rolls, hit the Warblade for 15d6 (out of 19d12+12+CON? yeah right) or try to hit a blurred, mirror imaged Wizard with a ranged touch attack.

Sorry for the epic post length--I'm procrastinating from Spanish homework due in the morning, and this is all I have to stretch things out. :smallwink:

Draken
2008-09-05, 02:24 AM
That Insight bonus looks like an arbitrary number to me.

Maybe nerfing that number is a good solution. Half hit dice or intelligence modifier as insight bonus to AC would bring it down a bit and a lot, respectivelly.

Frosty
2008-09-05, 02:50 AM
Now, I've never actually played at level 20 before, but usually how will the Cleric deal more than 100 damage a round in melee? what buffs are you expecting him to have? The cleric is a cleric/Storm Lord. Some of his damage is Electricity, which is dampened a lot by the Phane's resist 20.

Oslecamo
2008-09-05, 06:20 AM
Throw them some Balor and heretic Solars for them to train first. If they can defeat them they may have a chance against the Phane.

The thing is, at lv20 you have just too damn variables. Equipment, feats, spell combinations, very few people know how to use them properly.

For example, the cleric can use miracle to emulate the giant size Wu Jen spell and become gargantuan size, greatly increasing his damage, CON and STR.

Start throwing your party those lv 20 and up monsters from the basic MM so the party learns how to best use their toys. Then, when they're used, throw them the Phane, and let all hell breack lose.

Eldariel
2008-09-05, 06:25 AM
If Cleric has maxed Wis, Superior Resistance, high Con and straight Cleric-levels, his saves will be so high that there's basically no way for a Phane to harm him save natural 1s (and if he has the Pride-domain, not even those). All Phane's attacks are more of less save-or-die except for Chronal Blast, which is extraordinarily weak (15d8 damage is barely above 40 - Cleric can take 3-4 of those and cast Heal to basically ignore them all, or takes 5-6 of those and cast Mass Heal).

Level 20 Cleric can have saves of:

Fort: 12 Base + 6 Resistance (Superior) + ~8-10 Con + random Insight modifiers and stuff like that (Ioun Stones, Luck, what-have-you) for a minimum of 26, and likely modifier in the 30s.

Will: 12 Base + 6 Resistance + 13 Wis for base 31 without any random modifiers. Since Phane can only force DC30 SoDs, the Cleric just isn't failing.


The only real way for the Phane to win would be to actually KILL all the others (not just Stasis - simple Greater Dispel Magic frees the Stasised characters), then summon the Cleric's (or possibly try to summon the Wizard's/Warblade's before killing him and try to blow the Cleric out - it all depends on who has the best chance of harming the Cleric) past time replicate and gangrape the Cleric.

So if the Cleric is played well, Phane would be an appropriate challenge - I'm just worried about the rest of the party not really posing a threat to the Phane. The Warblade is gonna fail his saves soon enough (after he runs out of counters and actions), the Wizard has to contend with huge Touch AC, huge Saves and Incorporeality (if he's not played well, that's going to be a problem - simple blasting is gonna fall short, especially without Metamagicked Orbs of Force True Shot) and the "immunity" to Time Stop and the Dragon Shaman is probably gonna keep on sucking. So the encounter would be very much Cleric-only, which is kinda sucky.


Still, Phane is an incredibly COOL opponent so if you can work the inter-party issues out and make sure it's not at least an immediate TPK (remember that a Phane is an excellent runner too), go for it. It's not overpowering for 4 level 20 characters, although without optimization, they're the underdogs.

Akimbo
2008-09-05, 07:06 AM
Wouldn't that mean HP resets every round or something?

imperialspectre: I'm thinking of removing its immunities to negative levels (the wizard won't be expecting to deal more than 6 negative levels a turn). Hmm...so with a touch AC of 40, the Wizard can hit semi-reliably but only with a True Strike. So every two turns unless the Wizard uses all his 5th level spells Quickening the True Strikes. And he doesn't even have Quicken Spell right now...

You really expect a Corporeal Phane to go down that quickly given its Null Time Field?

It's an arbitrary time plane, I'd have negative levels and HP damage/ability damage carry over. It would also allow the Warblade to Perfect Mind every save, which against the Null Time Field is kinda the point.

DigoDragon
2008-09-05, 08:21 AM
You could always make it a weaker, smaller Phane without the crazy Epic "Suck or Lose" abilities...

I'm with Mojotech. You can always adjust the creature to lower it's CR a couple points so that it's tough, but doable and then just...

...(wait for it)...

...Phane ignorance that you changed anything. :smallamused:

imperialspectre
2008-09-05, 08:37 AM
Now, I've never actually played at level 20 before, but usually how will the Cleric deal more than 100 damage a round in melee? what buffs are you expecting him to have? The cleric is a cleric/Storm Lord. Some of his damage is Electricity, which is dampened a lot by the Phane's resist 20.

Assumptions I'm making: I assume that the Cleric has Power Attack, and that the Cleric is preparing this battle for almost straight-up melee combat. This means that we're persisting low-level buffs out of high-level spell slots instead of putting real spells there (why bother? it's not like Implosion is going to take out the Phane).

Strength base 14
+4 inherent (tome)
+6 enhancement (persisted Divine Power)
+4 size (persisted Righteous Might)
+4 untyped (Greater Visage of the Deity)
= 32 = +11 mod

Chance to hit: 20 BAB (persisted Divine Power)
+11 STR bonus
+5 enhancement (GMW)
+3 morale (Righteous Wrath of the Faithful)
+1 luck (persisted Prayer)
-1 size
+1 untyped (haste)
+1 weapon focus (hopefully longspear)
= +23 on top of BAB

If the Cleric's deity is LG, we add in a Zealot Pact. The Pact triggers on the first hit, then adds +4 to hit and doubles damage (you can do this for both melee'ers, it's just a 5th-level spell and lasts until triggered, so we're not going to make the Warblade feel useless here). I am not assuming this in place, although it would certainly be awesome.

BAB 20, with the above bonuses, gives us five iteratives (normal + haste):
+42/+42/+37/+32/+27. I think it's safe to say that Power Attacking for 5 is smart, as this means the first two attacks hit on anything but natural 1, the cleric needs to roll a 7 to hit on the third, the fourth needs a 12, and the fifth needs 17 (but that's iteratives for you). Three hits are basically guaranteed (four's not a stretch, but let's play this safe).

If the Cleric has Leap Attack, s/he auto-succeeds the jump check. In this case, if charging first round, PA for 7.

Damage:
I don't know what weapon the cleric is using. Let's play with a holy longspear--it's what I would use if playing a stormlord--that or a shortspear.
2d6 base (size) = avg 7
+2d6 untyped (holy weapon) = avg 7
Electrical stuff from Stormlord won't matter, nor will the sonic damage from Thundering.
+5 enhancement
+11 STR
+10 Power Attack
+1 luck (persisted Prayer)
+3 morale (Righteous Wrath of the Faithful)
= 44 avg damage/hit

Assuming 3 hits, 132 damage in a full attack. This is using ONLY cleric spells and Power Attack, and I can't believe a cleric wouldn't have PA.

If charging the first round, without Leap Attack, we get at least 48 average damage in the first round. This is without any way to full attack. With Leap Attack, we get 62 on the charge (PA for 7, 14 from THW, x2 is 28 for Leap Attack).

With an LG deity, we get Zealot Pact. The chances of missing the first attack are basically zero. After that, we get a +4 to hit, but Power Attacking for another 4 would be counterproductive--instead, we use that to make iteratives more likely to hit. This means four hits per round, almost guaranteed. Each one does double damage, for 88 dmg/hit, for 352 damage on a full attack.

Lastly, if the Phane is moving around a lot, the Cleric can charge (Greater Visage gives flight at twice normal speed, +haste) and keep up with the Phane without a problem. Sans Leap Attack and Zealot Pact, our damage per round is only 48 (but the Warblade gets to shine, because of strikes being awesome and not requiring full attacks). With Zealot Pact triggering, we then Power Attack for 11 every time (still misses only on nat 1), because we only get one attack. This gives us 66 average damage, doubling from Zealot Pact to 132 damage/round.

One final note: This is with a basically standard weapon, and all but three of the spells are core. Two of the others are definitely around, because they're in Complete Divine and so is the Stormlord. The last (Righteous Wrath) is in the Spell Compendium.

only1doug
2008-09-05, 08:38 AM
I just had a cool idea on how to foreshadow this (and thus give the players a chance to prepare).

when the players have all reached L18 have a session which steps away from the current plot and has them battle against more powerful versions of themselves for a their master (basically they are the alternate dimension copies that another phane has called in to kill its attackers) they don't ever really see their master, just know they must be loyal to him. you can drop a few hints about its abilities if you need too.

Frosty
2008-09-05, 10:23 AM
The Cleric does not have Power Attack. He has been using a lot of his feats on Extra Turnings (I only allow up to 2 Night Sticks). It can't be guaranteed that he'll have a +4 from a Tome. But otherwise, dealing close to a hundred damage is that ahrd I suppose *if* he can power attack reliably.

I forgot if he has weapon focus or not.

Having them fight copies of themselves may be a good idea...but I gotta find a way to incorporate that in a way that makes sense.

Oslecamo
2008-09-05, 10:26 AM
Make the cleric burn a miracle spell to copy the giant size spell from the Wu Jen class, and he'll grow up to garguantuan with a sick strenght bonus, plus increasing base damage based on size.

Medic
2008-09-05, 11:27 AM
Cleric should be able to shapechange to get to Titan or the wizard can poly any the cleric into something with better base Str for more damage.

He could also use Rhino's rush to charge and do 2X's damage to add onto the damage even further.

Personally I would expect Barb 1/Cleric 19 with Lion Totem for pounce. Making him able to attack for 4 times a round with Rhino's rush. so really he could do up to as much as 8 times the number stated above in an extreme situation.

I don't think its upkillable but it would be tough to manage without more Cheese.

Emperor Tippy
2008-09-05, 11:39 AM
If run as written the Phane will crush the party. If you strip it's incorporeality and its immunities then it becomes somewhat easier. But with it's other abilities it still should win. Null Time Field means a DC 30 will save is needed just to act for a round

Frosty
2008-09-05, 11:49 AM
Cleric should be able to shapechange to get to Titan or the wizard can poly any the cleric into something with better base Str for more damage.

He could also use Rhino's rush to charge and do 2X's damage to add onto the damage even further.

Personally I would expect Barb 1/Cleric 19 with Lion Totem for pounce. Making him able to attack for 4 times a round with Rhino's rush. so really he could do up to as much as 8 times the number stated above in an extreme situation.

I don't think its upkillable but it would be tough to manage without more Cheese.

So far they have not used Polymorph yet, and I am banning Shapechange for too much cheese potential. Gate is also banned. The cleric will not be taking any barbarian levels I'm sure of that, but Rhino's charge is a good idea definitely.

I'm thinking of doing this: The deities are lending the party a huge amount of power. Every 7 rounds, each of the spellcasters may take a Full-Round action to regain ALL spells. For the Warblade, his maneuvers auto-recover at the end of every other round.

For the Dragon Shaman, I'll probably let him turn into Great Wyrm or something. His Fort save is good, but his Will Save is abysmal. He's going to need to bump it up somehow.

Frosty
2008-09-05, 12:09 PM
I wonder if an Anti-magic field would protect against any of the Phane's abilities.

Emperor Tippy
2008-09-05, 12:11 PM
Only the SU ones. And Null Time Field is Ex.

Frosty
2008-09-05, 12:12 PM
Only the SU ones. And Null Time Field is Ex.

So as written, guaranteed TPK eh? What would *you* do to make this a winnable battle?

Emperor Tippy
2008-09-05, 12:22 PM
So as written, guaranteed TPK eh? What would *you* do to make this a winnable battle?

Have the PC's acquire an item/spell/enchantment that negates the phanes abilities.

Perhaps an item that drains a year from the PC's life every round, or maybe 1d4 years (enough to kill them in about 15 rounds or so) but makes them immune to all the Phane's time shifting abilities.

Fluff wise the item grabs a future version of the character for an instant and said future version is hit with the effect, but ripping the future version through time to the present destroys it.

Figure immunity to:
-Null Time
-Stasis Touch
-Chronal Blast
-Summon Past Time Duplicate

And negation of Time Regression.

Frosty
2008-09-05, 12:30 PM
Okay...but isn't that like the entirety of the Phane's offense? How else can the Phane theoretically win if it can't stasis touch and chrono blast?

Well, if the PCs don't kill it quickly enough they might die of old age...but the Warblade is a Warforged. He doesn't care abotu aging.

imperialspectre
2008-09-05, 12:40 PM
The Cleric does not have Power Attack. He has been using a lot of his feats on Extra Turnings (I only allow up to 2 Night Sticks). It can't be guaranteed that he'll have a +4 from a Tome. But otherwise, dealing close to a hundred damage is that ahrd I suppose *if* he can power attack reliably.

I forgot if he has weapon focus or not.

Having them fight copies of themselves may be a good idea...but I gotta find a way to incorporate that in a way that makes sense.

If he's a Stormlord, he has Weapon Focus. It's a prereq. Other than that, please get him to take Power Attack--if the party's 14 right now, they have two more feats each.

But really, as you can see from those numbers, Power Attack isn't actually necessary to doing 100 damage a round--and adding Zealot Pact means it's more in the "freaking easy" category.

Anyway, I like what you're doing. If you're giving the characters that much extra power, though, making the Phane corporeal and getting rid of Time Regression is probably enough to make the fight winnable.

Emperor Tippy
2008-09-05, 12:41 PM
It is pretty much. Perhaps leave Chronal Touch unaffected.

As for the warblade, give him 50-100 years as a clock and come up with some justification for it (perhaps he rusts or the magic that animates him weakens). No one knows the actual maximum age of warforged, the oldest ones are less than 50. We know that the book says no max age, but in the game world they might well not know that.

Frosty
2008-09-05, 12:44 PM
He is Chaotic Neutral. No zealot pact for him. He worships Talos.

Well basically, I've allowed the use of up to 2 flaws. I've given everyone 2 extra feats to play with (one was open for them to choose. The other was mostly my choice). I *was* on the spellpoints system, but the spellcasters were getting way too ridiculous with those so I changed it back to the spell slot system.

If I want some buffing tactics to work, should I get rid of its constant True Seeing and replace it with constant Invisibility Purge? That way, Displacement and Mirror Image can help.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-05, 01:01 PM
It is pretty much. Perhaps leave Chronal Touch unaffected.

I think you should leave Summon Past Duplicate unaffected, because that is a very awesome (and memorable) ability to use against players.

Eldariel
2008-09-05, 01:08 PM
Don't forget the Cleric's Divine Favor; +6 Luck instead of the +1 from Prayer. That would add to Spectre's numbers; even with 50 AC from the Phane, he'd be practically autohitting for ~40/hit with a +1 Holy weapon.

Frosty
2008-09-05, 01:52 PM
I think you should leave Summon Past Duplicate unaffected, because that is a very awesome (and memorable) ability to use against players.

Oh that one is too good to pass up. What can and can't the Phane grab with Summon Duplicate? I'm a bit confused on it actually. He's summoning copies of people he had defeated. So he had fought the party in an alternate timeline and defeated them?

Emperor Tippy
2008-09-05, 02:04 PM
Oh that one is too good to pass up. What can and can't the Phane grab with Summon Duplicate? I'm a bit confused on it actually. He's summoning copies of people he had defeated. So he had fought the party in an alternate timeline and defeated them?

He can summon any foe of his. Even a member of the party. Or a previously fought foe.

Jayabalard
2008-09-05, 02:22 PM
Per the OP, no need to worry about Epic Spellcasting - party expects to end the campaign at 20th. It's just a low-epic monster.The persons you're responding to is the OP.

Frosty
2008-09-05, 02:46 PM
He can summon any foe of his. Even a member of the party. Or a previously fought foe.

I can't access the site from work, but is there an HD limit on what he can summon? What if he has fought and defeated oh say...Asmodeus's Aspect or something in the past? Or had fought another Phane?

Eldariel
2008-09-05, 02:59 PM
The HD limit is 25 and whatever he summons takes two negative levels, so effectively he's summoning HD 23 creatures at most (if he wants to summon creatures with more than 25 HD, they just take extra negatives).

Oh yeah, and the "prepare for combat"-idea is fine - some divinity/strong NPC could pass them through tests without asking them any questions, matching them up against progressively harder foes without them knowing why and what they're fighting to prepare them for the Phane. A common trope in media, but rarely done in D&D that I'd know of it, so it could be pretty special and memorable, and would allow you to gauge the party's ability.

Frosty
2008-09-05, 03:05 PM
So in theory the Phane can summon another Phane? Albeit the summoned Phane has 13 negative levels?

Emperor Tippy
2008-09-05, 03:07 PM
So in theory the Phane can summon another Phane? Albeit the summoned Phane has 13 negative levels?

Yes. And in theory that Phane could summon another Phane. And so on until you have every Phane in existence in the fight.

Frosty
2008-09-05, 03:09 PM
Summoned creatures can't use their summno ability for an hour I thought?

Emperor Tippy
2008-09-05, 03:10 PM
Summoned creatures can't use their summno ability for an hour I thought?

Most of the time true. But the Phane's summon ability is funny.

Frosty
2008-09-05, 03:12 PM
Wow the Phane is retarded strong if we do things by RAW. I'm going to have to change its summoning ability.