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Mark Hall
2008-09-05, 12:43 AM
Ok, this one came to me before our game, and I want to throw it out before I go to sleep.

Sorcerers no longer use tables 3-16 or 3-17 for determining spells. Instead, they rely solely on table 3-5: Bard spells known. They learn spells at the same speed as Bards, and with the ability to replace learned spells at the same levels, but they use the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list AND any spell they know becomes an at-will ability; it may be cast as many times per day as the sorcerer has available actions.

For the purposes of reserve feats, their spells are always considered unexpended. For the purposes of spell trigger and spell completion items, they are considered to have the entire Sorcerer/Wizard list, even spell levels that are beyond their capabilities (i.e. they can use a scroll of Wish or a Staff of Power Word, Stun, even though they will never be able to cast it without said items).

Furthermore, sorcerers may use metamagic without paying the additional time, but only a number of levels of metamagic equal to their level, per day; a 4th level sorcerer could cast a two stilled, silent spells per day, or four spells stilled, or four spells silenced, provided he knew the feats. They still must increase the levels of the spells normally; they simply do not have to spend the time to do so, provided the metamagic adjustment is completely negated.

In all other respects, sorcerers remain as listed in the PH, including skills, HD, saves, possession of a familiar, etc.

Thoughts on this?

Frosty
2008-09-05, 12:50 AM
So they only get up to 6th level spells...but they get them at will? Well, if their Caster Level is still equal to character level, then I guess they're sort of like slightly more versatile Warlocks? Meh...a nerf, but if you want to nerf it, it's not a bad way of doing it at all.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-05, 12:50 AM
I'm not sure if this is overpowered or not. On one hand, it has more variety then a Warlock, and while it would be next to useless at 1st level, infinite Glitterdusts, Rays of Enfeeblements and True Strikes (when paired with Orb spells), could be really overpowered. On the other hand, later on, the lack of high level spells would make them weaker (especially since a careful Wizard wouldn't be that likely to exhaust all of their spells).

Frosty, do Sorcerers need nerfing? I thought they were weaker then Wizards.

Frosty
2008-09-05, 12:53 AM
A higher level wizard almost never runs out of spells. Look at how many spell slots there are!

Sinfire Titan
2008-09-05, 01:12 AM
A higher level wizard almost never runs out of spells. Look at Echoing Spell!

Fixed to be true.

Akimbo
2008-09-05, 01:21 AM
Meh, you want Spontaneous casting, give them spontaneous casting. They no longer use table 3-16 and 3-17. They use a table that caps at 3 spells per level, they get access to new spell levels at the same levels as Wizards, and they cast spontaneously from the entire PHB Sorcerer/Wizard list.

They also get 1-2 additional spells from any spell list (including Divine lists or Trapsmith, whatever I don't care) at each class level.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-05, 02:00 AM
What does Echoing Spell do exactly?

Frosty
2008-09-05, 02:06 AM
Meh, you want Spontaneous casting, give them spontaneous casting. They no longer use table 3-16 and 3-17. They use a table that caps at 3 spells per level, they get access to new spell levels at the same levels as Wizards, and they cast spontaneously from the entire PHB Sorcerer/Wizard list.

They also get 1-2 additional spells from any spell list (including Divine lists or Trapsmith, whatever I don't care) at each class level.

You mean they only get 3 Spell Slots? So they have even less ammo than Wizards, but they can pull out whatever the need, whenever they need?

imperialspectre
2008-09-05, 02:36 AM
Now THAT's Batman.

Bayar
2008-09-05, 02:58 AM
What does Echoing Spell do exactly?

If I remember it right, it returns a spell you just cast so you can cast it again whit only 50% effects.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-05, 03:12 AM
Thanks (that would only really be a problem later on). What are the prequisites and is it a metamagic?

Bayar
2008-09-05, 05:06 AM
Thanks (that would only really be a problem later on). What are the prequisites and is it a metamagic?

Googled "feat index D&D" is a wonder to behold.

Spellcraft 12, ability to prepare spells, [Metamagic], 3 spell levels higher, cast a spell with this on, it will return to you 1 hour later as if you prepared it again, and be able to cast it again at -4 caster level. Repeat until you dont have enough CL to be able to cast the spell.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-05, 06:33 AM
Thanks (I was in a rush, so I asked rather then searching in case I couldn't find it). To be honest, I'm not really sure if it's that worthwhile due to the Metamagic cost and the lost caster levels.

Akimbo
2008-09-05, 07:02 AM
Thanks (I was in a rush, so I asked rather then searching in case I couldn't find it). To be honest, I'm not really sure if it's that worthwhile due to the Metamagic cost and the lost caster levels.

It's only a really high level cheese thing with meta reducers and high CL. Echoing spell is an obscure feat from an obscure book.

Core Wizards never run out of spells after level 9. That's the reason Wizard's never run out of spells.

Burley
2008-09-05, 07:45 AM
In my opinion, this could be fun...but, it's just a glorified Warlock, but... on steroids.
To even it out, I'd say that when they cast a spell, they must wait a number of rounds equal to the spell's level-1d4 rounds. So, you can cast 1st level spells every round, 2nd level spells every round, 3rd almost every round, 4th about half the time, 5th level spells could never be cast one after the next, and 6th level spells would need at least a couple rounds before they can be used.
I dunno if it's better to make them wait to cast that specific spell again, or to make them wait for that entire spell level.

I really am not good with homebrew/balance. So...yeah. Take it if you like it. Kindly critique if you don't.


It's only a really high level cheese thing with meta reducers and high CL. Echoing spell is an obscure feat from an obscure book.

Core Wizards never run out of spells after level 9. That's the reason Wizard's never run out of spells.

Also, this is a matter of opinion and campaign. I've been... near campaigns with mid-range wizards that run dry. It all depends on the DM and how many obstacles are in the path of the wizard, and how easily they could be smashed by the meat shield.

Akimbo
2008-09-05, 08:15 AM
Also, this is a matter of opinion and campaign. I've been... near campaigns with mid-range wizards that run dry. It all depends on the DM and how many obstacles are in the path of the wizard, and how easily they could be smashed by the meat shield.

No, it depends entirely on the Wizard player.

Frosty
2008-09-05, 10:39 AM
Smart Wizards also have Wands and Scrolls for emergencies...something which my party wizard hasn't figured out yet. My party hates consumables. I'm going to have to start really teaching them a lesson about having those for emergencies.

Jimp
2008-09-05, 10:45 AM
In my opinion, this could be fun...but, it's just a glorified Warlock, but... on steroids.
To even it out, I'd say that when they cast a spell, they must wait a number of rounds equal to the spell's level-1d4 rounds. So, you can cast 1st level spells every round, 2nd level spells every round, 3rd almost every round, 4th about half the time, 5th level spells could never be cast one after the next, and 6th level spells would need at least a couple rounds before they can be used.
I dunno if it's better to make them wait to cast that specific spell again, or to make them wait for that entire spell level.


I think this would be a good addition. It gives a real 'power levels' feel to the spells. First level spells can be cast constantly, but are the weakest. The stronger the spell the less frequently you can cast it.
I like the idea :smallbiggrin:

Frosty
2008-09-05, 10:58 AM
And then they'd be *really* weak and nobody would want to play them. They can't solve level-appropriate challenges at all!

Jimp
2008-09-05, 11:07 AM
At higher levels maybe, but for low to mid levels they should be fine. They still have full ability to use save or sucks or fly+orb/lesser orb spam.
EDIT: At 1st level they should get 1 first level spell, since using only cantrips for a level as a full caster kind of sucks.

Gaiwecoor
2008-09-05, 05:57 PM
To even it out, I'd say that when they cast a spell, they must wait a number of rounds equal to the spell's level-1d4 rounds. So, you can cast 1st level spells every round, 2nd level spells every round, 3rd almost every round, 4th about half the time, 5th level spells could never be cast one after the next, and 6th level spells would need at least a couple rounds before they can be used.
I dunno if it's better to make them wait to cast that specific spell again, or to make them wait for that entire spell level.


So ... something like Recharge Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm) in Unearthed Arcana? I kind of like the idea, actually. I've never been a fan of Vancian casting.

Jimp
2008-09-07, 08:49 AM
Any more input on this one?

weenie
2008-09-07, 10:11 AM
Well, the limitation on metamagic usage would seriously nerf the blasting aspect, and the best save or sucks are high level.. Seems like this variant would be much weaker than the regular sorcerer. I'd suggest at least dropping the mm restriction. Otherwise the idea is quite nice, I wouldn't mind playing such a class.

MammonAzrael
2008-09-07, 12:11 PM
I like it, but it makes it awfully hard to justify playing a Warlock. Burly Warlock's suggestion I like. One big benefit Is they can remain buffed pretty much all day long. This could potentially turn into a pretty decent melee class.
:smalltongue:

But now that you've nerfed the weaker arcane caster, lets see a Wiard nerf of the same level! :smallbiggrin:

Xyk
2008-09-07, 12:17 PM
I think this would kill metamagic usage for sorcerers. If they only have 6 levels, they can only use things like maximize and empower on very low level spells.

Mark Hall
2008-09-07, 12:30 PM
I think this would kill metamagic usage for sorcerers. If they only have 6 levels, they can only use things like maximize and empower on very low level spells.

That's a very good point, that I hadn't thought of. I'll have to think about it.

Eskil
2008-09-07, 12:58 PM
One may need to adress Summon Monster 1-6, at least in the higher levels, seeing as this Sorcerer could field between 1 and 1d4+1 monsters/level, making the term "spamming" doubly appropriate.

weenie
2008-09-07, 01:16 PM
I think this would kill metamagic usage for sorcerers. If they only have 6 levels, they can only use things like maximize and empower on very low level spells.

Actually that wouldn't be such a terrible problem, since there are lots of metamagic cost reducers, and lower level spells are usually just fine for blasting purposes(orb spells, scorching ray), and metamagic is free if you don't use the restriction the OP suggested.

Zeful
2008-09-07, 01:47 PM
But now that you've nerfed the weaker arcane caster, lets see a Wiard nerf of the same level! :smallbiggrin:

Okay, here you go.


Here's a fix I'm working on for wizards right now.

They start play with access to two schools of magic. At 3rd level they gain access to a third but at a -2 caster level. Then you add this feat.

Expanded School knowledge
Your broad studies into the arcane open up new possibilities.
Prerequisites: Wizard Level 5+
Benefit: You gain access to another school of magic of your choice. You may cast spells from this school as if you were a wizard two levels lower then lowest level school you have access to.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, choosing a new school each time.

In short, access to new school but at -1 spell level.

Of course I'm also doubling each school's number of spells at each level and redefining what the schools can and can't do. But this should stop much of the higher level abuse.

Mark Hall
2008-09-07, 08:05 PM
Actually that wouldn't be such a terrible problem, since there are lots of metamagic cost reducers, and lower level spells are usually just fine for blasting purposes(orb spells, scorching ray), and metamagic is free if you don't use the restriction the OP suggested.

No, metamagic isn't free; it has the time problem if you don't spend some of those levels/day, and, as was pointed out, most of the metamagic couldn't be applied to higher level spells; you could never metamagic a 6th level spell, for example.

Akimbo
2008-09-07, 10:14 PM
Note: The casting mechanic is stolen from the Sulin/Trollman Sorcerer.

Everything else I made up.

Sorcerer
"My blood is magical. But not magically delicious."

A Sorcerer has magic blood, this can come from Demons, Devils, Dragons, Fey, Angels, Eladrin, Slaad, Inevitable if a Warforged, ect. Anything magical, but it must come from somewhere. This blood makes Sorcerers good at magic. And that's why they can kill people. Sorcerers cannot be True Neutral, and must have and alignment component either of their parent, or directly opposing it.

Alignment: Anything but Neutral.

Races: Any descendant of a magical being or a magical being.

Starting Gold: As Sorcerer

Starting Age: As Sorcerer

Hit Die: d6

Class Skills: The Sorcerer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus
BAB: Poor (as Wizard), Saves: Fort: Poor; Reflex: Poor; Will: Good

Proficiencies: Same as Sorcerer.

Level, Benefit
1 Casting, Blood Calling, Practice Makes perfect, Blood Alignment
2 Familiar: Special
3
4 Bargain of the Father
5
6 Power of the Blood
7 Inherent Magic +1
8 Bonus Feat
9 Manipulate spell nature
10
11 Heritage
12
13 Bonus Feat
14 Inherent Magic +2
15 Metamagic Mastery
16
17 Mastery of the Blood
18
19
20 Apotheosis

Casting: Uses Charisma. Spontaneous casting of all spells known. Spells per day are half of Wizard of the same level for each spell level, rounded down (1 halved is 0 not -). Metamagic does not increase casting time.

Spell list: A Sorcerer knows all spells in the PHB Sorcerer list.

Blood Calling: A Sorcerer gains the class skills associated with his blood.

Blood Alignment: A Sorcerers blood is called to one of the alignments of his ancestors. A Sorcerer chooses an alignment component of his parentage, he must either have this component or directly oppose it. He is treated as having this alignment as well as his own for all spells, this can be good (Blasphemy) or bad (Protection from Chaos).

Practice Makes Perfect: For every Sorcerer level that a character takes, (not PrCs) the Sorcerer adds two spells from the Sorcerer spell list of a splatbook to his known list. One of these must have the alignment subtype of his Blood Alignment, or be otherwise fitting for his blood (a Sorcerer with Dragon Blood taking Wings of Flurry).

Familiar: At second level a Sorcerer gains a Familiar, this must be a creature of the type he is descended from, even if he opposes that creature type. It will serve him faithfully. This creature should be of the power level appropriate to having taken the improved Familiar feat. DMs and players are encouraged to find a good fit for the character.

Bargain of the Father: At level 4 a Sorcerer gains a bonus on all Cha checks and Charisma based skill checks with creatures of his parentage equal to +4, this is a circumstance bonus. Additionally, he may bargain with a creature of that type, and borrow one or more of it's SLAs for a period of time determined when the SLA is borrowed. The level of all his SLAs added together may not exceed the highest level spell he can cast.

He gains these abilities exactly as the creature has them, subject to all limitations that the creature possess, but used with the Sorcerer's caster level and Cha modifier on saves. The creature loses the SLA completely for the duration of the borrowing.

To convince a creature to allow him to borrow the SLA, the creature must be either confined in some way (as by Planar Binding), or willing. He must then make an opposed Cha check with a bonus to the creature equal to the SLA's spell level as a standard action.

The duration of the bargain must be determined before the borrowing takes place, and the DM should determine how long the creature is willing to lend the SLA.

Power of the Blood: At level 6 the Sorcerer gains a +1 untyped bonus to CL for all his spells and borrowed SLAs.

Inherent Magic: At level 7 the Sorcerer gains a +1 untyped bonus to spells with the alignment component of his blood alignment, or that are otherwise related to his blood nature. This increases to +2 at level 14.

Bonus Feats: At level 8 and 13 a Sorcerer gains a bonus metamagic feat.

Manipulate Spell Nature: At level 9 a Sorcerer is able to apply any one of the enlarge, extend, or widen metamagics, even if he does not have the feat, to any spell he casts sharing his Blood Alignment or otherwise related to his Bloods nature without increasing spell level.

Heritage: At level 11 a Sorcerer masters his heritage, if his Blood Alignment is different from his own, he may choose which a spell uses when it interacts with him. If his Blood Alignment is the same as his own, he may call upon it to oppose any spell that negatively effects him due to that alignment, such as Blasphemy or Protection from Chaos. He may make an opposed CL check against the CL of the spell or SLA, and if he succeeds he may choose for the spell to be dispelled, having no further effects. (If used against an instantaneous duration spell with more then one target, the spell check and result are performed before the spell affects any targets.)

Metamagic Mastery: At level 15 a Sorcerer has mastered metamagic. He may apply a single metamagic effect which he has the feat for to any spell he casts without increasing the level. This ability cannot be used in conjunction with other metamagic feats, either by himself, or by outside influences such as items or the class features of others. However it can be used with his Manipulate Spell Nature ability. This ability cannot be used with Quicken Spell.

Mastery of Blood (Su): At level 17 the Sorcerer has mastered the secret of his Blood. He gains DR 5/-, Fast Healing 1, and gains a Blood of one of the following types, or one designed by the DM to fit his blood nature.

These abilities are generic, and designed around alignments only, descendants of Dragons or specific creatures not inextricably aligned with an alignment (such as fey) should design there own where appropriate:

Law: The Blood of Law Compels. This blood is a poison that acts as a Zone of Truth spell when consumed, with no save. Creatures immune to poison ignore this ability.

Chaos: The Blood of Chaos Burns. This blood can be used as an attack, doing 1d6 damage per character level as a ranged touch attack. To attack with it the Sorcerer must take a standard action to cut himself, dealing 10 points of damage as the blood pushes itself free, this is not diminished by DR of any kind. If the blood does damage, then it forces a Will save of DC 10+1/2 Character level+Cha modifier which if failed, affects the target with the confusion spell for one round. This is a mind affecting effect.

Good: The Blood of Good Protects. This blood can redirect the strongest blow, or divert any offensive magic. The Sorcerer may use this blood to protect an ally from any spell or attack that could effect him. This uses an immediate action, and forces the spell or attack to target the Sorcerer and only him. This does not apply to area of effect spells, though it does apply to spells that may have multiple targets.

Evil: The Blood of Evil Consumes. This blood is a vial corrosive. It can eat through nearly any material, even magical ones. This serves the obvious purpose, but this blood also seeks to destroy that which opposes it. If any spell or attack should cause damage to the Sorcerer, his blood revolts against it, striking back at the creature and doing the Sorcerers Caster Level in damage.

Apotheosis: The character gains the type of it's blood nature, and a bunch of other special abilities.

Heck he can just be a Solar/Dragon/whatever with extra Sorcerer casting. It's level 20. No one plays here, if you do, be nice to your DM and maybe he will give you awesome stuff.

weenie
2008-09-08, 07:36 AM
No, metamagic isn't free; it has the time problem if you don't spend some of those levels/day, and, as was pointed out, most of the metamagic couldn't be applied to higher level spells; you could never metamagic a 6th level spell, for example.

There are lots of ways to negate time increase when using metamagic for sorcerers. Also metamagic feats(except for quicken) are really only good for blasting and lower level spells are usually just fine for such uses. And there's always Incanctatrix, Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic, so that's not such an issue.