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Orzel
2008-09-05, 07:59 AM
What should be the limits on how far a nonmagically enchanced character from the natural world can reach?
Brawn: What should be the upper limit on how strong a nonmagical character can be? Should it be the current Olympic level strength? As strong as the strongest animal known on Earth? As strong as the monsters and magical beasts? Should these character gain the additional benefits of superstrength such and knocking prone and push that the strong monster have?

Speed: How fast could a nonmagical character run? Should a nonmagical character be able to match the speed of our fastest animals or magical beings?

Toughness: What immunities could be available to a nonmagical character? Should a person with enough training be practically immune to poison and disease? Fire, cold, or lightning? What kind of hits and attacks could resist an epic level tough character survive? A rockslide? Being hit with a bus? A hail of bullets?

Brains: What effects should extremely high mental strength on a nonmagical character? Should they automatically developed psionics? Be immune to mind altering effects? Be so magnificent that he or she can predict and counter certain attacks with pure intellegence, knowledge, or wisdom?

AstralFire
2008-09-05, 08:01 AM
What should be the limits on how far a nonmagically enchanced character from the natural world can reach?
Brawn: What should be the upper limit on how strong a nonmagical character can be? Should it be the current Olympic level strength? As strong as the strongest animal known on Earth? As strong as the monsters and magical beasts? Should these character gain the additional benefits of superstrength such and knocking prone and push that the strong monster have?

Speed: How fast could a nonmagical character run? Should a nonmagical character be able to match the speed of our fastest animals or magical beings?

Toughness: What immunities could be available to a nonmagical character? Should a person with enough training be practically immune to poison and disease? Fire, cold, or lightning? What kind of hits and attacks could resist an epic level tough character survive? A rockslide? Being hit with a bus? A hail of bullets?

That depends entirely on the setting.

In Star Wars, I do not want to see Han Solo benchpressing AT-ATs. In Eberron, eh. Maybe. In nondescript generic D&D land? I'm cool with that!

Preferably something equivalent in size, like a Tarrasque, rather than an actual AT-AT though.

only1doug
2008-09-05, 08:24 AM
thats easy, the limit should be 25...

18 max, +2 for race, +1 / 4 levels = 25
the maximum stat for a non epic character of any base class / race combo.

anything above that is becomeing magical


ewwwww, you got some Real Life into my game...

Orzel
2008-09-05, 08:29 AM
Yes the setting matters greatly. If the setting contain beings with extreme amounts of lifting and althelic prowess then creature with simialiar strength show be able to produce similiar effects.

D&D is strange on how it places a great deal on size when it comes to strength. The character with a larger size could lift a lot more than a smaller being with a higher Strength score. Giants can toss boulders, trees, and other large objects but the high level orc with higher strength can't. I find that weird.

Tengu_temp
2008-09-05, 08:31 AM
That depends entirely on the setting.

Exactly this. In some settings it will go the way some people like, and people are not stronger or faster than in real life. In other settings in will go the way I like. and characters with enough training/raw potential are able to pull off all kinds of ToB/Exalted/shonen anime stuff.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-05, 08:31 AM
It depends on the genre and game, but generally PCs should be able to be as smart as Odysseus or Mr. Fantastic, as strong and fast as Hercules or Captain America, and so on.

In D&D's case, there's no need to artificially limit ability scores. Pre-epic, the limit without magical boosts is, like only1doug pointed out, 25. Appropriately enough, World's Strongest Man champions can squat over 800 lbs. and deadlift close to 900 lbs., which would put them at Strength 25-26, according to the Carrying Capacity table. (The difference over 25 is, obviously, the result of making a DC 20 Strength check or somesuch.)

Edit: I guess Mariusz Pudzianowski is a level 20 half-orc fighter or a level 4 half-orc barbarian.

Morty
2008-09-05, 09:26 AM
It depends on the genre and game, but generally PCs should be able to be as smart as Odysseus or Mr. Fantastic, as strong and fast as Hercules or Captain America, and so on.

I wouldn't call it "should be" but rather "are in most games".
I, personally go with a faint line of "what works". Superhuman strenght sometimes looks badass and sometimes ludicrous.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-05, 09:37 AM
I wouldn't call it "should be" but rather "are in most games".
I, personally go with a faint line of "what works". Superhuman strenght sometimes looks badass and sometimes ludicrous.

"It depends on the genre and game, but generally PCs are in most games" would look like really bad English, though.

Spiryt
2008-09-05, 09:38 AM
It depends on the genre and game, but generally PCs should be able to be as smart as Odysseus or Mr. Fantastic, as strong and fast as Hercules or Captain America, and so on.

In D&D's case, there's no need to artificially limit ability scores. Pre-epic, the limit without magical boosts is, like only1doug pointed out, 25. Appropriately enough, World's Strongest Man champions can squat over 800 lbs. and deadlift close to 900 lbs., which would put them at Strength 25-26, according to the Carrying Capacity table. (The difference over 25 is, obviously, the result of making a DC 20 Strength check or somesuch.)

Edit: I guess Mariusz Pudzianowski is a level 20 half-orc fighter or a level 4 half-orc barbarian.

Eh, they can squat, or deadlift such weights, like you said, and with 25 strenght in D&D you can actually walk around and fight with almost 800 pounds with them, with relatively small minuses (It's only their heavy load).

The 25 str character can actually lift those 800 pounds over the head.

The actual world record in clean and jerk is, I believe about 580 pounds.

So I guess that strongmen strenght in D&D terms will be actually much lower.

Morty
2008-09-05, 09:41 AM
"It depends on the genre and game, but generally PCs are in most games" would look like really bad English, though.

Scratch the "in most games", then. This way we have "It depends on the genre and game, but generally PCs are able to be as smart as Odysseus or Mr. Fantastic, as strong and fast as Hercules or Captain America, and so on.". Voila.

bosssmiley
2008-09-05, 09:49 AM
that's easy, the limit should be 25...]

"A maximum strength of 25 was good enough for our ancestors; who are we to be wiser than them? Then again, our ancestors also believed that 18/75 was a valid stat..." :smallbiggrin:

In modern D&D though, I'd say it's a simple case of "whatever works for your game." If you want your high level characters wrasslin' giants then just say that strength is uncapped (HULK lift mountain style). If you prefer them to be Odysseus rather than Hercules just bring in a cap. I'd say 25 for a medium creature with a +0 Str mod, just for old-times sake. :smallamused:

Mastikator
2008-09-05, 09:56 AM
Depends on your level.

I can easily see an epic barbarian throwing tigers across the battlefield and bull-rushing elephants and uprooting trees without any help from magic.

I can easily see the max strength of a first level barbarian to be him lifting another human over his head with one hand.

Non-magic doesn't limit extraordinary. An electric eel isn't magical and it can shoot lightning at people, magic isn't a perquisite for awesome, but it does go a long way.

only1doug
2008-09-05, 09:57 AM
Eh, they can squat, or deadlift such weights, like you said, and with 25 strenght in D&D you can actually walk around and fight with almost 800 pounds with them, with relatively small minuses (It's only their heavy load).

The 25 str character can actually lift those 800 pounds over the head.

The actual world record in clean and jerk is, I believe about 580 pounds.

So I guess that strongmen strenght in D&D terms will be actually much lower.

so max human strength in the real world would = 21 (max load 460 Lb)

meaning that no real world strongman has started with 18 strength and put all his ability point increase after L12 into strength.

this is stretching reality to fit a game a bit too much maybe.


ewwwww, you got some more Real Life into my game...

AstralFire
2008-09-05, 10:59 AM
D&D is strange on how it places a great deal on size when it comes to strength. The character with a larger size could lift a lot more than a smaller being with a higher Strength score. Giants can toss boulders, trees, and other large objects but the high level orc with higher strength can't. I find that weird.

The Strength score represents how much of your Strength you are able to use adequately in a combat situation, for the most part. I can more easily carry large objects than some people smaller than me who can bench more by virtue of the fact that I can lever the weight around the extra foot of frame I have to get more muscle behind it.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-05, 02:00 PM
Eh, they can squat, or deadlift such weights, like you said, and with 25 strenght in D&D you can actually walk around and fight with almost 800 pounds with them, with relatively small minuses (It's only their heavy load).

You're right - my bad. They'd be Str 20, since you can deadlift twice your heavy load. Clean-and-jerking 580 would be Str 22 or 23 (depending on how much you consider to be "extra effort").

Spiryt
2008-09-05, 02:08 PM
You're right - my bad. They'd be Str 20, since you can deadlift twice your heavy load. Clean-and-jerking 580 would be Str 22 or 23 (depending on how much you consider to be "extra effort").

And as far as I know, weightlifters really aren't stronger than strongmen (:smalltongue:) - just far more specialized in one specific strenght use.
As those thing are always a matter of technique and training, not s"sheer strenght" (whatever that "sheer strenght) woud be.

That's really the reason that I would be careful with chalenging PC with reallly extraordinary strenght tasks, even if they can do it - strenght in D&D just covers many not particulary connected things (like any other ability) - how much you can lift, how hard you can punch, and how well you can... climb.

Chronos
2008-09-05, 03:52 PM
18 max, +2 for race, +1 / 4 levels = 25
the maximum stat for a non epic character of any base class / race combo.

anything above that is becomeing magicalAn orc barbarian can hit 33 while raging, and even a human barbarian can hit 29.

Orzel
2008-09-05, 05:13 PM
It's more noticeable in 4E. Start at 18 and 5 per 10 levels makes 28 at level 20 with no racial bonus. 33 at epic.


What about speed? Could an epic character have a speed of 50 feet or 10 squares?

Ceiling009
2008-09-05, 05:20 PM
The fastest sprint speed of humans, I believe is about 20 mph... I'm not too sure on fastest sustained speed...

Spiryt
2008-09-05, 05:26 PM
It's more noticeable in 4E. Start at 18 and 5 per 10 levels makes 28 at level 20 with no racial bonus. 33 at epic.


What about speed? Could an epic character have a speed of 50 feet or 10 squares?

Well, speaking of 3.5 edition, really low level character can have such speed.:smalltongue:, let alone epic.

Assuming that round is 6 seconds, such guy with Run feat can beat the world record on 100 meters, carrying 25 kilos of stuff, considering ~16 strenght.

And can run like that for quite a few rounds.

Even considering that Run isn't mostp popular feats, it's a bit too much for me.

Jayabalard
2008-09-05, 05:55 PM
50' in 6 seconds is not particularly impressive (though, the run speed that implies is)


Jerry Rice reportedly ran a 4.71 second 40-yard dash (regarded as a mediocre figure for a wide receiver).

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-09-05, 06:11 PM
You also got to think that in DnD terms; you also have races and bloodline "corruption" (meaning non-pure; like pure Human, or pure Elf) that allows for massive strength. Not every character is human. Besides; DnD is fiction. Not reality. If DnD were based in reality, then the game would not be played as much as it is. Sure, I would love to be a human with the mental capacity of a Mind Flayer; but that's not going to happen. The game needs a level of unbelievability to make it believable :smallamused:

Lyndworm
2008-09-05, 06:21 PM
It's more noticeable in 4E. Start at 18 and 5 per 10 levels makes 28 at level 20 with no racial bonus. 33 at epic.

Although this is true, it's important to note that carrying capacity is calculated differently in 4e. In 4e, your norma load (like a light load) is 10x your strength score. In addition, there is no medium load, only heavy (20x, and you're slowed and using both hands) and maximum drag (50x and you're dragging/pusshing, not lifting, slowed if the wieght is more than 10x strength) loads.

So while you need 20 strength to push 2,000lbs in 3.5, you need a strength of 40 to do the same in 4e. Conversely, with a strength of 20 a character in 3.5 can carry 133lbs with no penalty, but in 4e a charcter with a strength of 20 can carry 200lbs with no penalty.

A little bit of a difference.

Zack

P.S.
Silence yourself, Quirinus Obsidian! We're trying to get all of the catgirls in one fell swoop!

nightwyrm
2008-09-05, 06:54 PM
It's more noticeable in 4E. Start at 18 and 5 per 10 levels makes 28 at level 20 with no racial bonus. 33 at epic.


The math is not right. You can only get 8 points of increase to any one stat from levelling from 1 to 30. Assuming your race gives you a +2 and you took demigod ED, the max stat for any lv 30 character is 30.

Thurbane
2008-09-05, 08:38 PM
thats easy, the limit should be 25...

18 max, +2 for race, +1 / 4 levels = 25
the maximum stat for a non epic character of any base class / race combo.

anything above that is becomeing magical


ewwwww, you got some Real Life into my game...
How about classes that add to abilities, like racial paragon classes?

Hairb
2008-09-05, 09:43 PM
D&D is strange on how it places a great deal on size when it comes to strength. The character with a larger size could lift a lot more than a smaller being with a higher Strength score. Giants can toss boulders, trees, and other large objects but the high level orc with higher strength can't. I find that weird.

The power of leverage. Make it work...for you!

Riffington
2008-09-05, 09:46 PM
You're right - my bad. They'd be Str 20, since you can deadlift twice your heavy load. Clean-and-jerking 580 would be Str 22 or 23 (depending on how much you consider to be "extra effort").

Remember that those weightlifters have years of specialized training in lifting as opposed to generalized strength (their max lift is enhanced by Profession:Weightlifter). Lifting is as much skill as strength.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-06, 07:22 AM
Remember that those weightlifters have years of specialized training in lifting as opposed to generalized strength (their max lift is enhanced by Profession:Weightlifter). Lifting is as much skill as strength.

Silence, you! This is D&D, not GURPS or something, where you actually have skills for things that you can train in without improving your overall physical capacities, like Running and Lifting...