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View Full Version : [3.5/ToB] Shadow Blade - A Discussion



Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-09-05, 06:04 PM
Feat in the Tome of Battle states the following:

Benefit: While you are in a Shadow Hand stance and attack with one of the discipline’s preferred weapons, you can add your Dexterity modifier as a bonus on melee damage rolls for attacks made with that weapon.

Special: Shadow Blade can be used in place of Weapon Finesse to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. If this substitution allows you to gain a benefit that normally applies to all Finesse weapons (Those described in the Weapon Finesse feat description) it instead only applies to the Shadow Hand preferred weapons.

I am in a discussion with a player and my DM; I state that the feat allows me the ability of Weapon Finesse because of the text here: "If this substitution allows you to gain a benefit that normally applies to all Finesse weapons..". The benefit that I am looking for would be that I would use my Dex on attack also; because that is an ability that I would gain if I had the Weapon Finesse feat. The other player disagrees; stating that it does not say that I get that specific ability. I asked Wizards, and they tell me that they do not support older versions of the game (Gods, if I said that at my job, I would be fired).

Halp!

NEO|Phyte
2008-09-05, 06:06 PM
Feat in the Tome of Battle states the following:

Benefit: While you are in a Shadow Hand stance and attack with one of the discipline’s preferred weapons, you can add your Dexterity modifier as a bonus on melee damage rolls for attacks made with that weapon.

Special: Shadow Blade can be used in place of Weapon Finesse to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. If this substitution allows you to gain a benefit that normally applies to all Finesse weapons (Those described in the Weapon Finesse feat description) it instead only applies to the Shadow Hand preferred weapons.

I am in a discussion with a player and my DM; I state that the feat allows me the ability of Weapon Finesse because of the text here: "If this substitution allows you to gain a benefit that normally applies to all Finesse weapons..". The benefit that I am looking for would be that I would use my Dex on attack also; because that is an ability that I would gain if I had the Weapon Finesse feat. The other player disagrees; stating that it does not say that I get that specific ability. I asked Wizards, and they tell me that they do not support older versions of the game (Gods, if I said that at my job, I would be fired).

Halp!
That's not quite what it means.

What it means is that, if you are using Shadow Blade to qualify for a feat/prc/other that would normally require weapon finesse, the benefits of that feat/prc/other that would normally apply to finessable weapons apply instead to Shadow Hand weapons.

As an example, if the Duelist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/duelist.htm) had any abilities that normally required a finessable weapon, and you used Shadow Blade to qualify for it, you could ONLY use those abilities with a Shadow Blade weapon.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-09-05, 06:13 PM
That's not quite what it means.

What it means is that, if you are using Shadow Blade to qualify for a feat/prc/other that would normally require weapon finesse, the benefits of that feat/prc/other that would normally apply to finessable weapons apply instead to Shadow Hand weapons.

As an example, if the Duelist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/duelist.htm) had any abilities that normally required a finessable weapon, and you used Shadow Blade to qualify for it, you could ONLY use those abilities with a Shadow Blade weapon.

Yes, and that part I understand. The point that I am trying to make in the discussions is that using the DEX mod on attack rolls is a special ability that having the weapon finesse feat will give to the character. And since the feat states that it does give the benefits to shadow hand weapons, I see how it would give the benefits of Weapon Finesse.

fractic
2008-09-05, 06:14 PM
Yes, and that part I understand. The point that I am trying to make in the discussions is that using the DEX mod on attack rolls is a special ability that having the weapon finesse feat will give to the character. And since the feat states that it does give the benefits to shadow hand weapons, I do not see how it does not translate the dex modifier to attack rolls.

Yes but weapon finesse isn't a feat you got by using shadow hand to qualify for it instead of using weapon finesse to qualify. It only applies to feats you get by using that. It definatly doesn't apply to feats you didn't get at all in the first place.

NEO|Phyte
2008-09-05, 06:16 PM
Yes, and that part I understand. The point that I am trying to make in the discussions is that using the DEX mod on attack rolls is a special ability that having the weapon finesse feat will give to the character. And since the feat states that it does give the benefits to shadow hand weapons, I do not see how it does not translate the dex modifier to attack rolls.

Because Weapon Finesse is not a feat/prc/other that requires Weapon Finesse to qualify for, so Shadow Blade's special text doesn't apply. And even if it was, you'd have to take it (using Shadow Blade to qualify) for it to work.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-09-05, 06:19 PM
Okay; I see the point, I guess a discussion like this is why WoTC went to the 4.x version :smallsmile:

Thanks for the help! :smallcool:

fractic
2008-09-05, 06:20 PM
I guess a discussion like this is why WoTC went to the 4.x version :smallsmile:

Nah they just wanted more money. :smallamused:

Edge of Dreams
2008-09-05, 06:21 PM
1) Getting the benefit of weapon finesse by taking Shadow Blade makes no sense in terms of balance. Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse are two different feats. Your interpretation makes the original Weapon Finesse feat completely pointless and replaces it with a two-feats-for-one Shadow Blade.

2) The wording does not mean what you think it means. The wording specifies that if you A) don't have weapon finesse and B) take another feat/prc/etc. (call it "X") that depends on weapon finesse then you C) Get the benefits of "X" when using shadow hand weapons, but not other finessable weapons. You get the benefits of "X", not weapon finesse itself.