Soul-selling Trickery

[bird2234]

I can't believe I fell for this one.

I've been playing a homebrewed system with my friends every weekend for a month now, and I've run into a big problem.
The players are only level four (out of fifteen) and they aren't exceptionally powerful or anything. One of my players has decided that he is going to 'loan' his soul to a Titan (think devils) for cash. I was in a good mood, so I said he could do this.
He then explained to the other players that he is going to spend the money on a set of armor that is enchanted with demons, allowing him to move at almost four times his current speed, and double his Dx. This is probably going to cost a few hundred gold.
Finally, he's going to threaten wizards to enchant his armor with an Anti-magic field.

What do I do?
I have some ideas, but I'm not sure how he'll take it: no anti-magic fields that cancel both divine and arcane magic, OR the field doesn't block higher-level magic, OR he needs a powerstone to power that antimagic field that is going to cost THOUSANDS of gold. He's really happy with himself, so I don't want to just take back what I said...

EDIT: Yeah, I have a plan: the AMF is just going to sever the demon's bindings, they get set free, they kill him, the other players all pitch in a whole lot of gold to raise him, and everybody then is scaled back to level appropriate characters. Then I have a plot hook: they have to earn enough gold to buy back his soul, or level up and go after the Titan. Thanks for the ideas, I've been braindead these days.

[Flickerdart]

The Titan comes back to take what's owed to him. No amount of anti-magic helps. The end.

[Chronos]

First, you have to decide what the penalties are for not having possession of his own soul. They should be severe, but what exactly they are is up to you.

Second, while he's in an anti-magic field, he can't get his soul back at the end of the rental period. He's not screwing over anyone but himself by insisting on that.

[Moff Chumley]

Rocks fall, trial lawyer player dies.

[Chronicled]

He then explained to the other players that he is going to spend the money on a set of armor that is enchanted with demons, allowing him to move at almost four times his current speed, and double his Dx. This is probably going to cost a few hundred gold.
Finally, he's going to threaten wizards to enchant his armor with an Anti-magic field.

What do I do?

Wouldn't an anti-magic field suppress the magic in his armor, stripping away all those magical bonuses the armor is giving him? He'd be shooting himself in the foot if he did that.

Also, threatening wizards tends to be a bad idea in most any system. If he tries to do that part, don't have the wizards roll over and take it; let him know why threatening people who can defy physics is a bad idea. It's like a party thief saying that he'll steal some super-powered artifact--he can try, but when he trips a trap or gets spotted, getting fried like a cheap side of bacon is his own fault.

[icefractal]

A Wizard powerful enough to enchant his armor with AMF is probably also powerful enough to kill him. Especially after he takes the armor off so the Wizard can "enchant" it.

Even if somehow there are weak, timid Wizards that can enchant armor this way, they can still make it cursed - but with a time delay. He's enjoying his new anti-magic armor just fine, then suddenly ... BOOM! It becomes pro-magic armor, which attracts and amplifies any hostile spells thrown at him.

[streakster]

The Wizards agree to enchant his armor. As soon as he dons it, they inform him that the AMF has cancelled his armor's powers - and rendered it immobile. Then, they summon the Titan that he sold his soul to, yell "Sic 'im!" and laugh at him for threatening wizards.

The rest of the party gets delicious cake.

[FMArthur]

Have the Titan lose the soul gambling with some horribly evil being.

[Chronicled]

Have the Titan lose the soul gambling with some horribly evil being.

THIS. This has a lot of potential for hilarity.

Titan: "So... um... I'm not sure how to tell you this, but..."
PC: "What?! What happened?"
Titan: "You know how you shouldn't gamble while drunk?"
PC: "..."
Titan: "Yeah... well... I tried to bluff with your soul against Asmodeus. He had a full house."
PC: :eek:
Titan: "It'd probably be a good idea not to be you from now on. Oops, look at the time! Later!"

[Prometheus]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the number one rule of soul trading is that you ALWAYS lose. ALWAYS (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DealWithTheDevil). It is NEVER advantageous. How you decide to work that in is your own prerogative.

[Curmudgeon]

He then explained to the other players that he is going to spend the money on a set of armor that is enchanted with demons, allowing him to move at almost four times his current speed, and double his Dx. This is probably going to cost a few hundred gold. This is your problem. You should be setting the prices, and that seems ridiculously cheap for what this guy is talking about. Tell him the few hundred gold is just the cost of getting a price estimate for doing the work. The prices of each armor enhancement will be much higher.

[DarknessLord]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the number one rule of soul trading is that you ALWAYS lose. ALWAYS (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DealWithTheDevil). It is NEVER advantageous. How you decide to work that in is your own prerogative.

Not always... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWPX5nr6esM)
But then again, is this player the best that's ever been?

If he thinks all that costs a few hundred gold, then I'm betting no.

[Lyndworm]

Johny didn't trade his soul, he bet it. No harm in a gentleman's wager.

Now Peter Tork, he traded his soul and won.

Zack

[chiasaur11]

Heck, if Phillip J Fry can win a deal with the devil, it's hardly surprising someone of average or better intelligence could do it.

[only1doug]

well if you have a PC with God-like armour then he'll slip and show off / brag about its abilities.

God-like enchanted armour would be very valuable so thieves would want to steal it.

Thieves tend to leave their victims dead and Titans own his soul.

sounds like he has written his own death warrant to me.


Edit: nothing says no reincarnation like not owning your soul.

[Thinker]

Heck, if Phillip J Fry can win a deal with the devil, it's hardly surprising someone of average or better intelligence could do it.

But he didn't...he broke even at best.

[DarknessLord]

Plus it was the ROBOT Devil, who has considerably less power then most things that people sell their soul to.
And did Fry even give up his soul in that episode, I thought he just traded hands, and the robot devil wanted his hands back....

[FMArthur]

The Robot Devil had Fry swapping hands with someone else at random, and screwed himself by getting selected for the process. Fry had the Robot Devil's hands and the Robot Devil wound up with Fry's, so the Robot Devil had to trick Leela into something stupid to bargain with Fry for his hands back. That whole episode was about the Robot Devil fixing his own disastrous error. :smallbiggrin:

[DarknessLord]

Right, the point is, Fry never traded his SOUL, so his victory isn't as relevant to the question at hand.

Now Homer Simpson on the other hand, managed to beat the devil after trading his soul, because the devil did not do the research. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidNotDoTheResearch)
And his head was back to normal by next episode, so let's count it anyway!

[Randel]

The player 'lent' his soul to the titan, what does the titan do with the soul?

a few ideas

a). Having the players soul for a while lets the titan transform into the player, and any actions he does in this form affect the players karma. Unless the titan specifically transforms in front of someone, its impossible to tell that its a disguised titan. Cue rumors of the player doing outragious things like getting married to a trogladite or desecrating the alter of some god that ticked the titan off at one point. Then when the time is up, the player gets his soul back with a whole PILE of bad karma and people out to get him, nobody will believe the story of him loaning his soul.

b). The titan uses it to power a golem/ghost/undead thing. The monster goes on a rampage near the players area. If the monster is destroyed, the player dies instantly.

c). The titan uses it to experiment with making a phylactery. The player starts feeling sharp pains in his chest and slowly turns undead. There is a chance that he will become a lich-like thing where he regenerates wounds if injured and can't die... but once its time for the titan to return the soul to him, then he makes an ultimatum. The player must keep giving him money or else the titan snaps the phylactroy in half and kills him instantly.

d). like the above poster suggested, he loses or trades the soul somehow.

e). The player walks past a sign that reads "You need a soul inside you to live." he makes a will save to avoid dying instantly.


As for the whole armor thing:

a). the armor is enchanted with demons, just wearing it screws him over in some way like constantly sucking his blood or making him famished.

b). If his soul isn't inside him then whats keeping him alive/self-aware? The wizards take one look at him and cast a mind-control spell. Without a soul he has absolutely no resistance to it and effectively becomes their slave.

c). like above but as soon as an anti-magic field covers him he drops to the floor dead. The wizards use his corpse in making some hideous flesh golem or grind it up for material components. The titan shows up with the soul and they accept it on the players behalf, then use his soul as a component in their new night light.

[Selrahc]

Losing your soul is likely to leave you a driveling wreck. Lose lots of points of mental stats, instil a feeling of revulsion in those you meet, suffer extreme mental illness. Even if the players plan is to loan his soul, then get it back later he should still suffer lingering effects of all of these.

Then you've got the issue of what the Titan is doing with his soul. This can be a great plot hook for you, as you can feed him all sorts of random information that he just feels in his soul. As well, its a license to just screw him over whenever, with some dark command words that are now part of his very core.

Aside from even that, the massive upset to his mortal life, hes got the issue of probably being damned for all eternity.

So uh... the armour probably isn't going to be that great. As deals for your soul go, this seems like one of the very worst you could conceive of.

[Randel]

Crazy thought:

imagine if the players came across a mindflayer who promised to grant a wish in exchange for the wishers brain?

Or a vampire who granted wishes in exchange for draining all their blood into a bucket.

Or a werewolf who granted wishes in exchange for all of the persons internal organs... so he can cook them up and eat them.

Or having one's arms extracted in a way so that they could never be regenerated or replaced with prosthetics (maybe they arms are removed and replaced with weird tentacle things that the person has no control of).


Would someone make a deal like that more or less readily than they would trade their soul for?

[chiasaur11]

Crazy thought:

imagine if the players came across a mindflayer who promised to grant a wish in exchange for the wishers brain?

Or a vampire who granted wishes in exchange for draining all their blood into a bucket.

Or a werewolf who granted wishes in exchange for all of the persons internal organs... so he can cook them up and eat them.

Or having one's arms extracted in a way so that they could never be regenerated or replaced with prosthetics (maybe they arms are removed and replaced with weird tentacle things that the person has no control of).


Would someone make a deal like that more or less readily than they would trade their soul for?

Hey, the blood deal could work out fine...ish. You get two or more wishes, you use one as you bleed to death to get replacement blood, and one for a human scaled hamster ball. If you can't wish for blood, wish for antifreeze. It worked for TV's Frank! Sorta.

Any more wishes can be used as normal.

[FMArthur]

The titan uses it to experiment with making a phylactery. The player starts feeling sharp pains in his chest and slowly turns undead. There is a chance that he will become a lich-like thing where he regenerates wounds if injured and can't die... but once its time for the titan to return the soul to him, then he makes an ultimatum. The player must keep giving him money or else the titan snaps the phylactroy in half and kills him instantly.

Out of curiosity, do constructs, the undead, or any other magically animated creatures die instantly when exposed to an anti-magic field?

[BobVosh]

Out of curiosity, do constructs, the undead, or any other magically animated creatures die instantly when exposed to an anti-magic field?

Incorporeal undead wink out of existence, but come back after the AMF moves on.

Have the threatened wizard be a spellweaver. He then takes the armor to eat it, and robs the party blind. No cash left and soulless, you can still do the "titan is a bad man." I would think it funnier if you force the player to climb through the titan's defenses, rush into the titan liar and prepare for an epic fight...only to discover the titan forgot about it and has been using the soul gem as a book stop.

*edit* make it seem like the titan refused to give the soul back, forgot to mention that

[robotrobot2]

If the armor is a problem, just have them fight a rust monster during their next encounter. Or just have the wizards cast fireball on the character for his insolence in threatening them.

[Learnedguy]

This sounds like a perfect chance for PLOT:smallyuk:

First off, make the wizard screw over the player for some quick cash. Yeah you heard me, the wizard is a conman. Not soon after the Player tries to use the armor he notices that it is in fact a phony magical armor. (He does though get a quite nice shiny fresh armor though, it just isn't as magical as he hoped for).
Make the player hate that wizard's guts and give him a chance for revenge somehow, someday.

And then, while the Player is faced with the dilemma of the soul-selling, hit him with FMArthur's idea. The devil in question has lost the PC's soul! Suddenly that PC turned a lot more interesting and he got a new motivation for adventuring.

I recommend you throw him a bone of some sort though, as his initial plan was a failure. Here's a few ideas of what losing your soul might lead to:


The player has now become immune to death effects that requires will saves
The PC has lost his effective alignment. Alignment no longer matters when choosing prestige classes and spells. Detect Alignment spells doesn't even register the PC's existence.
If resurrected the PC does not lose any experience.


These are just suggestions though.

Anyway, always remember, "Retarded Players" is just another word for opportunity:smallamused:

[Flickerdart]

The player has now become immune to death effects that requires will saves
The PC has lost his effective alignment. Alignment no longer matters when choosing prestige classes and spells. Detect Alignment spells doesn't even register the PC's existence.
If resurrected the PC does not lose any experience.

Oh yes, reward him for selling his soul, why don't you. Soon, everyone will be selling souls left and right, the market will be oversaturated, inflation will manifest and the Hells will go into a Depression, forcing Asmodeus to get another mortgage AKA forge another Pact Primeval, just to stay viable, resulting in the victory of good over evil for all eternity. And we don't want that, now do we?

[chiasaur11]

Oh yes, reward him for selling his soul, why don't you. Soon, everyone will be selling souls left and right, the market will be oversaturated, inflation will manifest and the Hells will go into a Depression, forcing Asmodeus to get another mortgage AKA forge another Pact Primeval, just to stay viable, resulting in the victory of good over evil for all eternity. And we don't want that, now do we?

...yes?
It means all the stupid people won't have souls, leading to a glut, eventually leading to a massive increase in the value of souls when the glut is used up, as very few people will have saved them, leading to an ability to sell your soul to a good being for competitive rates.

Ah, DnDconomics. How I love thee.

[FMArthur]

At which point a clever player may buy up all the cheap souls to sell at a premium when everyone realizes how much they need their souls. I'm not sure if many devils would care much for the value of such casually discarded souls. It's the one case where the item's actual value will be proportionate to its perceived value.

[Learnedguy]

Oh yes, reward him for selling his soul, why don't you. Soon, everyone will be selling souls left and right, the market will be oversaturated, inflation will manifest and the Hells will go into a Depression, forcing Asmodeus to get another mortgage AKA forge another Pact Primeval, just to stay viable, resulting in the victory of good over evil for all eternity. And we don't want that, now do we?

Hah, yeah, I already thought about that. Simple solution, the Player in question is a special case because of the peculiar circumstances regarding his soul. If anyone tries to sell their soul they'll just get f---ed over. Problem solved.

(This is a more of a question of keeping people engaged in the game. A major setback like that might leave the player surly and annoyed, which will influence the all around atmosphere. As I said, throwing a bone. His new abilities are minor at most.)

[Johel]

I can't believe I fell for this one.
He then explained to the other players that he is going to spend the money on a set of armor that is enchanted with demons, allowing him to move at almost four times his current speed, and double his Dx. This is probably going to cost a few hundred gold. Finally, he's going to threaten wizards to enchant his armor with an Anti-magic field.


As said previously, such a wizard won't let a lowly 4th level threaten him. He will just ask for cash. Lot's of it, that's it.

How, and if it's a demonic armor, no good wizard will agree to do the work anyway, so the one who's going to do it WILL be either a conman (who will just cast the spell on the armor, not enchant it) or a evil bastard (who will steal the armor...and maybe kill the PC)

IF your player succeed in finding a wizard who doesn't do the above, then it's ok for him. It might even be the beginning of a sub-quest for the group : The search of a wizard powerful and trustworthy enough to do the job.

For the soul part, I would say a malus in Charisma and maybe in Wisdom. After all, Charisma is the feeling people get around you. Pets might even go mad when around the soulless player.
The Wisdom is just in case his Charisma was already below average but it could represent the slow lost of contacts with the world of the living.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Lord_Gareth actually statted up a template for soulless characters over in the homebrew forums, and it's a really flavorful and appropriate mechanic, IMHO. I'll just copy/paste it from his homebrew compendium to avoid sifting through the thread pages.


Soulless

"It's like...imagine someone asking, 'what is it like to be you?' and the only answer you can give them is, 'I don't know. I'm not me anymore.' It isn't like a hollow feeling - it's like no feeling at all. It's like the thing that makes you you is gone, scattered to dust, but it isn't even like that, because you can't feel its absence or anything else. It's like everything dries up but two things - a single, overwhelming purpose, and the need - the cold, emotionless need - to reclaim yourself." - Marla Vain, former Soulless

Though an evil baron torments the villagers and starve them with taxes, they don't call him soulless. No, they have seen soulless - soulless is their mayor, who was dragged away by the baron's wizards. He came back to them a week later, not a broken man, but not a man at all. He didn't smile, nor did he frown. He never raised his voice. He never got sad or angry or happy. When the priest spoke to him, he came back to the villagers muttering that there was no justice left in the world. And now all he cares about are the laws, and nothing - not pleading, not bribes, not threats - can stop him from enforcing them.


Creating a Soulless

Soulless is an aquired template which may be applied to any corporeal creature with Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma of at least three that has an alignment, hereafter referred to as the base creature.

Size and Type: The creature loses any alignment-based subtypes and gains the Augmented subtype. Size is unchanged. However, most people who look at the soulless get a feeling that they are smaller - like they aren't quite there somehow. This has no mechanical effect.

Speed: Speed is unchanged, but, again, there is a perception that the soulless isn't really there. Thus, most people don't really percieve them as moving so much as they believe them to manifest from one place to another. Looking twice always corrects the delusion - for the moment. This has no mechanical effect.

Armor Class: Unchanged.

Alignment: Soulless actually have alignments, but these are less attributes of the soul for them than they are patterns of behavior. Soulless retain any divine casting levels and any divinely granted supernatural abilities as long as they continue to act in accordance to their alignment. A soulless barely detects as their alignment, to the point where those trying to determine their alignment doubt its existence.

Special Attacks: Empty Stare (Ex): Those meeting the soulless's eyes are unnerved by the sheer emptiness they find within them. The brighter and hotter their own souls are, the harder it is not to be unnerved. Any creature looking the soulless in the eyes (treat this as a gaze attack) must succeed at a Will save (DC = 10 + 1/2 the soulless's hit dice + victim's Charisma modifier) or take a -2 penalty to all attack rolls, skill checks, saving throws and ability checks for the duration of the encounter. Those who succeed gain a cumulative +1 bonus on their next save vs. the effect which dissapears at the end of the encounter. This is a mind-affecting ability.

Special Qualities: Soulless (Ex): A soulless is immune to all mind-affecting abilities - they find no purchase upon him. Furthermore, he is immune to charisma damage and drain.

One True Purpose (Ex): A soulless has only one drive left. This might be to uphold the tenants of their faith, save children from disaster, or murder anyone who says a certain word, but they cling to one part of their former life and it defines them. They get a +2 bonus on all die rolls involved in fufilling this purpose, or against anything that tries to prevent them from fufilling it. This bonus persists even if they lose this template - they remember the strength that purpose gave them, and feel that strength even after they regain themselves.

Abilities: Adjust from base creature as follows: Intelligence +4, Wisdom +2, Charisma -6. These adjustments override any bonuses to those three statistics from other templates - that is, they take the place of them. If the soulless ever loses this template, the adjustments stay, but they stack with (instead of override) other adjustments.

Combine this with some of the other "Titan screws you over" and "Wizard screws you over" suggestions for a memorable adventure.

[Anteros]

Wow, that template is incredibly broken.

[BobVosh]

...yes?
It means all the stupid people won't have souls, leading to a glut, eventually leading to a massive increase in the value of souls when the glut is used up, as very few people will have saved them, leading to an ability to sell your soul to a good being for competitive rates.

Ah, DnDconomics. How I love thee.

I can see it now. 12 packs of souls at demonic Costco.

Wow that soulless template is extremely good.

Here is my suggestion for soulless:
-2 will saves: You lack that bit of drive that everyone else has.
-6 charisma: As you walk by it can unnerve people, animals fear and hate you. You lose animal companions/familiars. Anyone following due to leadership will now abandon you ASAP.
+4 intimidate: You blank eyes and listless stare can unnerve the strongest of men. Something is wrong with you. (use con instead of cha for intimidate)
Unabled to be Ressurrected (no soul to call back)
2 hours of rest restores the body, no sleep needed.
Geas/Quest/Simliar effect immunity
Immunity to Soul Gem/any other soul trap spell

Its not a good template. There is a reason people like having souls.

[Thrud]

Umm, was he intending to SLEEP in this armor? Coz trust me, he won't be able to. It weights you down and is incredibly uncomfortable. You might be able to get away with it for a few nights of really lousy sleep, but after a while it just isn't going to work.

Then, pissed off Wizard who has been watching him with a crystal ball since the threatening hits him with a questing spell of some sort and you have a plot hook on a stick.

Oh, yeah, and part of the quest is that he has to give the armor to the wizard as part of an extremely heartfelt apology.

And that doesn't even take into account the being he has sold his soul to.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Heh, I had a player "rent" his soul once.

It was back in 2e when the party thief (and master of bad decisions) was really broken up over having a Wight drain a level out of him. Yeah, that was pretty nasty back in 2e - not a whole lot to do aside from gaining it back.

Well, the party ended up having to work for an evil wizard who needed someone to do some item collecting. In lieu of his payment, the Thief asks if the wizard can restore his lost level. The wizard thinks about it and says "sure, let's see what I can do."

The Thief doesn't remember what happens next, but he had his level back, so the party went out on the adventure. That night, the party notices that the Thief's eyes glow an unholy red in the dark... and as time goes on, they notice other "changes" in the Thief. Turns out that the wizard decided to run an experiment where he'd transfer some demonic essence into the Thief to "fill" the space drained by the Wight.

Needless to say, hilarity ensued :xykon:

[Khanderas]

A Wizard powerful enough to enchant his armor with AMF is probably also powerful enough to kill him. Especially after he takes the armor off so the Wizard can "enchant" it.

Even if somehow there are weak, timid Wizards that can enchant armor this way, they can still make it cursed - but with a time delay. He's enjoying his new anti-magic armor just fine, then suddenly ... BOOM! It becomes pro-magic armor, which attracts and amplifies any hostile spells thrown at him.
I agree. A Wizard would not easily take "Enchant my armour so I am untouchable by magic (and all you can do) or I will hurt you" peacefully.
What are the chances of said Wizard's life if he DOES do it ? Compare mentally the fighter in AMF vs not in AMF for a Wizard to defend himself against.
Threats will not work here. Perhaps kidnapping, but far better to bribe the Wizard for a crazy amount of money. (Has to be crazy amounts of cash to enchant an ANTI-CASTER ARMOUR)

Ok, so threat worked and the Wizard is doing something to the armour. I suggest baneful polymorph into a slime. That is the Zelda II slime or DragonQuest games. Then forced into familiartude or sold to a noblemans daughter as a pet or something.

And if the player manage to scare the Wizard into doing it right, the armour would lose its other powers, including the bound demons/titans, speedbonus and whatever else.

If the armour actually functions as the player wants, the Wizard has to be killed and discreetly. If left alive, he and his allies can very well do something to you even if you are invulnerable to magic. Poison, a simple physical pit trap, Coup de grace when alsleep, summon powerful monsters, a few wall of iron/stone. Lots of things to choose from.


So yeah, many many ways of things to stop this. I mean enchanting saving bonuses is one thing, but immunity to magic is not something a spellcaster would normally help with.
And especially not for that level range.