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Lord Denyuar
2008-09-06, 12:42 PM
Do whisper gnomes have a LA? I was looking and they seem pretty powerful for no LA. Can someone confirm for me that there is no LA for whisper gnomes?

The Rose Dragon
2008-09-06, 12:45 PM
They have no LA.

That said, they are one of the best no LA races out there.

Chronicled
2008-09-06, 01:01 PM
They are also the only cool gnomes.

The Rose Dragon
2008-09-06, 01:03 PM
They are also the only cool gnomes.

Heresy! :smallmad:

Morty
2008-09-06, 01:06 PM
Heresy! :smallmad:

It's not a heresy if it's true.:smallamused:

The Rose Dragon
2008-09-06, 01:14 PM
It's not a heresy if it's true.:smallamused:

Of course, since it's not true, it is heresy. :smallyuk:

Ascension
2008-09-06, 01:28 PM
A whole lot of DMs either disallow them or give them LA. I personally think they're a bit weak for +1 LA and a bit strong for +0, but they manage to simultaneously be gnomish and badass, so I generally come down in favor of them.

Normal gnomes can be cool, but not like whisper gnomes can.

Inhuman Bot
2008-09-06, 01:30 PM
What book are these gnomes from? races of stone?

Chronicled
2008-09-06, 01:33 PM
Normal gnomes can be cool

Heresy! :smallmad:

MeklorIlavator
2008-09-06, 01:35 PM
What book are these gnomes from? races of stone?

Yep. And I'm gonna have to come down on the WG=badass, normal gnomes= no baddass, though this might have to do with the fact that the people I game with most often play them all as ADHD mad tinkerers, and that gets really old after the first 2 second or so.

Ascension
2008-09-06, 01:37 PM
Heresy! :smallmad:

Gnome rangers are cool. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=67267)

Bob the Urgh
2008-09-06, 01:43 PM
That is one cool gnome, like the backstory.

Ascension
2008-09-06, 01:49 PM
That is one cool gnome, like the backstory.

Thanks. It's a little on the cliched side compared to most of my backstories, what with the village destruction and all, but I'm fond of him myself. He's definitely the most action hero-style character I've ever played, with a longbow-first, questions-later way of dealing with evil.

RTGoodman
2008-09-06, 02:35 PM
Up until someone mentioned them in a thread a few weeks ago or so, I had always though Whisper Gnomes were a decent +1 LA race. I was shocked when it turned out they're actually LA +0. That said, they're still really cool.

Ascension
2008-09-06, 02:42 PM
The way I see they basically only have three semi-uber abilities.

1.) Massive, massive hide bonuses. I remember hearing someone joking about playing one and never even letting the other party members see him.

2.) 30ft movement for a small creature.

3.) Combined low light vision and darkvision.

I don't think that's enough for LA +1, and stripping one of the visions and part of the hide bonus would remove any doubt whatsoever.

Chronicled
2008-09-06, 03:21 PM
I remember hearing someone joking about playing one and never even letting the other party members see him.

*Raises hand* I think Frosty was also in on that plan, but I'd have to look it up.

vegetalss4
2008-09-06, 03:32 PM
Heresy! :smallmad:

obivously you have never played eberron.
i feel sad for you:smallfrown:

Edit: why is it exactly that they are that good, i have heard it a lot of times, but i have never understod it

MeklorIlavator
2008-09-06, 03:35 PM
obivously you have never played eberron.
i feel sad for you:smallfrown:

Actually, from what I recall Eberron Gnomes have alot incommon with whisper gnomes personality wise, so most of what makes Whisper gnomes badass would apply to them.

Chronos
2008-09-06, 04:24 PM
Edit: why is it exactly that they are that good, i have heard it a lot of times, but i have never understod itBasically, they have everything you could possibly want for a sneaky-type character. They're small, they have a dex bonus (combined with a con bonus, which everyone likes, and penalties to str and cha, which aren't all that important), they have very high racial modifiers to stealth skills, they move at full speed, their spell-like abilities further help their stealthiness, and they have rogue as their favored class. If you want to play a stealthy character, there's almost no reason to pick any other race.

Now, of course, they make lousy sorcerers or fighters, but that doesn't matter so much, since you'd never make a whisper gnome sorcerer or fighter anyway. When looking at how good a race is, you have to look at the types of builds they're best at, not the things they're bad at.

shadow_archmagi
2008-09-06, 04:31 PM
Wow. Compare a whisper gnome rogue with a human rogue.

1 feat.

2 skill points.

VS

+2 dex, +2 con

+8 to hide
+1 to AC
+1 to attack

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-09-06, 04:52 PM
Wow. Compare a whisper gnome rogue with a human rogue.

1 feat.

2 skill points.

VS

+2 dex, +2 con

+8 to hide
+1 to AC
+1 to attack
now let's compare them while taking their negatives into account too.
-2 Strength, -2 Charisma.

they're good, but so are dwarfs and lesser asimar/tieflings

Ascension
2008-09-06, 04:52 PM
their spell-like abilities further help their stealthiness,

It doesn't really make that big of a difference in the long run, but I will point out that their spell-likes key off of CHA, which they have a penalty to, so if you try to really dump CHA you'll only have Silence 1/day.

Also, goblins, while definitely inferior, have a good number of the features that make whisper gnomes so good themselves.

That's not to say whisper gnomes aren't excellent. I just don't think they're quite the "OMG cheese, cheese, CHEESE!" that some people make them out to be.

Chronicled
2008-09-06, 05:01 PM
obivously you have never played eberron.
i feel sad for you:smallfrown:

I am currently playing in an Eberron campaign, as a whisper gnome, who's a beguiler. Win + Win + Win = Win Cubed. His name is Quigley (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=54245) (just Quigley), he's a laid-off Brelish spy, and he's one of my favorite characters ever.

Knaight
2008-09-06, 05:07 PM
Actually Win+Win+Win=3 Win. Its Win*Win*Win=Win^3

Not to be really pedantic or anything.:smallbiggrin:

Chronicled
2008-09-06, 05:15 PM
Actually Win+Win+Win=3 Win. Its Win*Win*Win=Win^3

Not to be really pedantic or anything.:smallbiggrin:

I've taken enough calculus and prerequisites to know proper use of exponents! Perhaps you haven't realized that the sort of win that whisper gnomes, beguilers, and Eberron are made out of is too much for the rules of mathematics!

fractic
2008-09-06, 05:29 PM
I've taken enough calculus and prerequisites to know proper use of exponents! Perhaps you haven't realized that the sort of win that whisper gnomes, beguilers, and Eberron are made out of is too much for the rules of mathematics!

Nothing is too much for the rules of mathematics!

Let's see Win+Win+Win = Win cubed. So either Win = 0 -well that's cleary not the case- or Win = +-sqrt(3). So whisper gnomes are exactly sqrt(3) Awesome Win. The Awesome is obviously the unit in which Win is normally expressed.

SurlySeraph
2008-09-06, 05:34 PM
Personally, the best gnome I've ever seen was a non-whisper gnome, and was a villain. There are many ways in which you can handle a gnome's eccentricity, but gnomish serial killers are rare. Oh, let me revise that. Gnomish serial killers who turn out to be the owner of the shop that the PCs buy all of their equipment at. Equipment which becomes cursed the moment they figure out that he's the one who killed all those halfling women.

shadow_archmagi
2008-09-06, 05:47 PM
now let's compare them while taking their negatives into account too.
-2 Strength, -2 Charisma.

they're good, but so are dwarfs and lesser asimar/tieflings

Strength? Charisma? Those are DUMP STATS.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-06, 05:51 PM
Strength? Charisma? Those are DUMP STATS.
For a non-social Skillmonkey, for a Wizard, or for a Druid (plus for quite a few non-core classes). Sometimes for a Cleric, as well, but not always.

But yeah - like the Dwarf, on the high side of +0 LA, on the low-side of +1 LA.

shadow_archmagi
2008-09-06, 05:53 PM
For a non-social Skillmonkey, for a Wizard, or for a Druid (plus for quite a few non-core classes). Sometimes for a Cleric, as well, but not always.

But yeah - like the Dwarf, on the high side of +0 LA, on the low-side of +1 LA.

Wait, why is the dwarf so amazing?

fractic
2008-09-06, 05:55 PM
Wait, why is the dwarf so amazing?

+2 con, darkvision, and best of all +2 on saving throws against spells and SLAs. There's also a bunch of other minor goodies.

Killersquid
2008-09-06, 06:41 PM
Nothing is too much for the rules of mathematics!

Let's see Win+Win+Win = Win cubed.

Thats actually 3w when w = win:smalltongue:

Thurbane
2008-09-06, 06:48 PM
Hmm, now I'm thinking of a whisper gnome beguiler for my next character...:smallbiggrin:

UglyPanda
2008-09-06, 07:16 PM
Win + Win + Win = Win Cubed
Win + Win + Win = Win ^ 3
3 * Win = Win ^ 3
Win ^ 3 - 3 * Win = 0
Win * (Win ^ 2 - 3) = 0

Therefore, Win is equal to either the negative or positive square root of 3, or 0.

Can someone please tell me why I wrote that? I don't understand my motivations anymore.

DareTheRogue
2008-09-06, 07:21 PM
Actually just have to throw this out there the Whisper Gnome Divine Prankster is amazing... with trickery and travel domains, going rogue/cleric to get in... I am now a Jester in your court... An Assassin Jester... The character is currently level 17 and killed 16 nobles and a king... Who cares about the neg CHA when you drop a DC 20+Cha Will save on them before combat even starts.

chiasaur11
2008-09-06, 07:33 PM
Win + Win + Win = Win ^ 3
3 * Win = Win ^ 3
Win ^ 3 - 3 * Win = 0
Win * (Win ^ 2 - 3) = 0

Therefore, Win is equal to either the negative or positive square root of 3, or 0.

Can someone please tell me why I wrote that? I don't understand my motivations anymore.

Boredom?
Mind control?

imperialspectre
2008-09-06, 08:55 PM
"Who cares about the neg CHA when you drop a DC 20+Cha Will save on them before combat even starts."

Ummm...because that's now DC 20 minus CHA?

Te'Shen
2008-09-06, 09:27 PM
Up until someone mentioned them in a thread a few weeks ago or so, I had always though Whisper Gnomes were a decent +1 LA race. I was shocked when it turned out they're actually LA +0. That said, they're still really cool.Dark* whisper gnomes are a +1 adjustment... and they're so sneaky they lose themselves from time to time... If you're dm lets you buy of the adjustment, they make decent intelligence or wisdom based casters.

*(Dark template, +1 adjustment from Tome of Magic)

Is it cheezy... maybe, but I think of it as roleplay. 'I'm sneaky...'

jcsw
2008-09-06, 10:04 PM
Wait till you get an annoying DM who says Whisper Gnomes don't qualify as Gnomes for racial requirements since they're so different.

Anyway, Normal Gnomes get +1DC to illusion spells, 'nuff said.

RTGoodman
2008-09-06, 11:19 PM
Dark* whisper gnomes are a +1 adjustment... and they're so sneaky they lose themselves from time to time... If you're dm lets you buy of the adjustment, they make decent intelligence or wisdom based casters.

I tried to get my old DM to let me play a Whisper Gnome Beguiler/Shadowcraft Mage or something like that in a campaign, and if I would have known about the +0 LA and had thought of the Dark template I would have DEFINITELY gone with that.

Unfortunately, he basically just said no and made it a core-only game. And thus my Gnome Diviner (with a lot of Batman and save-or-lose stuff) was born. :smallamused:

Mr Pants
2008-09-06, 11:27 PM
They are also the only cool gnomes.

You've obviously never heard of polka gnomes
Edit: or any gnome at all for taht matter

ghost_warlock
2008-09-07, 12:16 AM
1.) Massive, massive hide bonuses. I remember hearing someone joking about playing one and never even letting the other party members see him

I've actually done exactly this (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=76075), and I didn't need to play a whisper gnome to do so - I used your garden (:smalltongue:) variety PHB gnome and stacked a couple templates. As was mentioned earlier, the Dark template (from Tome of Magic) gives a heafty bonus to hide as well as Hide in Plain Sight. Mixed with the Draconic template (Draconomicon), I ended up with a healthy Con score (:smalltongue: again) as well as a bonus to Cha; which came in handy considering I was playing a shadowmage (see sig).

The point of the (ECL 10) campaign was that the entire party was monstrous in some way, whether through templates or whatnot (drider, werewolverine, etc.), and everyone had to have darkvision since the campaign was going to take place exclusively in the Underdark. My dark draconic gnome shadowmage fit right in as a much needed artillery/battlefield control character. Having a +32 to Hide, +24 to Move Silently, as well as wearing a ring of the darkhidden (Magic Item Compendium) meant that I was effectively invisible to everyone (friend and foe) at all times; which is very handy for the squishy battlefield controller.

Mr Pants
2008-09-07, 12:53 AM
I've actually done exactly this (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=76075), and I didn't need to play a whisper gnome to do so - I used your garden (:smalltongue:) variety PHB gnome and stacked a couple templates. As was mentioned earlier, the Dark template (from Tome of Magic) gives a heafty bonus to hide as well as Hide in Plain Sight. Mixed with the Draconic template (Draconomicon), I ended up with a healthy Con score (:smalltongue: again) as well as a bonus to Cha; which came in handy considering I was playing a shadowmage (see sig).


http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=1299
I've got your hide beat, and at 3 levels below. Praise Olidamarra and pass the cloak of elvenkind! He's also the 2nd most ridiculous character I've ever made.

Ascension
2008-09-07, 02:07 AM
http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=1299
I've got your hide beat, and at 3 levels below. Praise Olidamarra and pass the cloak of elvenkind! He's also the 2nd most ridiculous character I've ever made.

He hides so well his sheet isn't even publicly viewable.

BobVosh
2008-09-07, 02:14 AM
Dawnforge Gnomes are better >.>

vegetalss4
2008-09-07, 04:50 AM
Basically, they have everything you could possibly want for a sneaky-type character. They're small, they have a dex bonus (combined with a con bonus, which everyone likes, and penalties to str and cha, which aren't all that important), they have very high racial modifiers to stealth skills, they move at full speed, their spell-like abilities further help their stealthiness, and they have rogue as their favored class. If you want to play a stealthy character, there's almost no reason to pick any other race.

Now, of course, they make lousy sorcerers or fighters, but that doesn't matter so much, since you'd never make a whisper gnome sorcerer or fighter anyway. When looking at how good a race is, you have to look at the types of builds they're best at, not the things they're bad at.

yum sure we are talking of the same guys? i cant find any bonuses to hide Here (page 21) (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Races.pdf)

ghost_warlock
2008-09-07, 04:54 AM
http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=1299
I've got your hide beat, and at 3 levels below. Praise Olidamarra and pass the cloak of elvenkind! He's also the 2nd most ridiculous character I've ever made.

I purposely didn't maximize Hide because I figured it'd be stupid to do so. The racial + size + ranks + ring of the darkhidden + Hide in Plain Sight already ensured he wasn't going to be spotted by anything short of DM Fiat. I slapped the +5 bonus on his armor for a lack of anything else to do with his WBL. :smallsigh:


yum sure we are talking of the same guys? i cant find any bonuses to hide Here (page 21) (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Races.pdf)

They do have a +4 bonus to Hide. Although this is something any Small race inherently has.

Akimbo
2008-09-07, 05:03 AM
crystal keep is wrong, they have a +4 racial to hide and MS, and +2 on Spot/Listen.

That's in addition to the size bonus.

So an ECL 2 Dark Whisper Gnome Rogue has a hide check of +25.

Give yourself a Permanent Reduce Person as you level up for another +5.

BobVosh
2008-09-07, 05:12 AM
crystal keep is wrong, they have a +4 racial to hide and MS, and +2 on Spot/Listen.

That's in addition to the size bonus.

So an ECL 2 Dark Whisper Gnome Rogue has a hide check of +25.

Give yourself a Permanent Reduce Person as you level up for another +5.


This man is correct. Except for the reduce person. That is another +4 not 5, but he probably mistyped.

I would like to point out that being invisible while moving is only +20 to hide. +25 ftw.

Akimbo
2008-09-07, 05:33 AM
This man is correct. Except for the reduce person. That is another +4 not 5, but he probably mistyped.

I would like to point out that being invisible while moving is only +20 to hide. +25 ftw.

It is +5, because it gives you a +4 for size, and a +2 size bonus to Dex, which is equivalent to another +1.

BobVosh
2008-09-07, 06:13 AM
It is +5, because it gives you a +4 for size, and a +2 size bonus to Dex, which is equivalent to another +1.

Oh snap, forgot they got a dex bonus. I submit to your betteer knowledge:smallwink:

Ascension
2008-09-07, 09:03 AM
If you as a DM have a player who really, really wants to play a whisper gnome, and who has a good backstory for it, but you want to negate the racial hide bonuses, you could actually make it a plot point.

The LE tyrant who rules the land fears the whisper gnomes, for he realizes that they are naturally stealthier than even a trained human. Because of this he has them all cursed with a permanancied variant on the prestidigitation spell which automatically turns any clothing they don bright orange. Unfortunately for the tyrant, even this is not enough, for it only provides a -4 circumstance penalty, and the gnomes are still mighty sneaky. This also has the side effects of associating ninjas with the color orange (a la Naruto) and leading to the formation of a resistance movement headed by whisper gnome assassins who want the tyrant's head on a silver platter and won't stop until he's dead... that would be where they would recruit the party to help them kill the evil dude.

Adumbration
2008-09-07, 09:22 AM
The LE tyrant who rules the land fears the whisper gnomes, for he realizes that they are naturally stealthier than even a trained human. Because of this he has them all cursed with a permanancied variant on the prestidigitation spell which automatically turns any clothing they don bright orange. Unfortunately for the tyrant, even this is not enough, for it only provides a -4 circumstance penalty, and the gnomes are still mighty sneaky. This also has the side effects of associating ninjas with the color orange (a la Naruto) and leading to the formation of a resistance movement headed by whisper gnome assassins who want the tyrant's head on a silver platter and won't stop until he's dead... that would be where they would recruit the party to help them kill the evil dude.

Ahem. Four words.

Naked whisper gnome rogues.

Ascension
2008-09-07, 09:29 AM
Ahem. Four words.

Naked whisper gnome rogues.

Uhh... then it turns their skin orange? :smallredface:

BobVosh
2008-09-07, 09:29 AM
Ahem. Four words.

Naked whisper gnome rogues.

Well, the less you wear, the harder you are to see...

Painted whisper gnome rogues!

chiasaur11
2008-09-07, 03:06 PM
Ahem. Four words.

Naked whisper gnome rogues.

Heck, even if their skins turned orange, no sane being would want to look.

Chronos
2008-09-07, 03:30 PM
The full, official stats for whisper gnomes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3) are available online. They get a +4 racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently, in addition to the +4 size bonus they get for being small.

And while Whisper Gnomes and the Dark template are both very nice, it's kind of overkill to combine them. You're probably already impossible to see; get something else that'll help you in some other way. Unless you really want the overkill, of course.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-08, 12:07 PM
The full, official stats for whisper gnomes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3) are available online. They get a +4 racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently, in addition to the +4 size bonus they get for being small.

And while Whisper Gnomes and the Dark template are both very nice, it's kind of overkill to combine them. You're probably already impossible to see; get something else that'll help you in some other way. Unless you really want the overkill, of course."As your patron finishes his spiel, he looks at you expectantly. 'So, will you do it?' "
"We're in, though we'll need supplies."
"Suddenly, a voice comes out of the shadows of the tavern. You look, but even with Darkvision and your +20 Spot, there is no one there. 'You will also need a Scout. I trust you appreciate my skills, and I am willing to help. For a fee, of course.' "

Lord Denyuar
2008-09-08, 03:07 PM
My friend and I were just discussing a whisper gnome rouge last night and we came up with at level 1 that it beats all others at hiding: +20 at first level (+4 size, +4 racial, +5 dex mod, +4 rank, +3 skill focus) combined with silence 1/day. Personally at level 1, would have taken the extra silence feat instead of skill focus.

I originally asked about whisper gnomes due to making illusionist. Instead went with regular gnome but am a focused specialist gnome illusionist. Gnome illusionist racial substituion level 1 and focus specialist (illusions) with enchantment, evocation, necromancy as prohibited schools and -1 caster level on abjuration school. At level 1, I get 2-0 spells with 3-0 illusions and 0-1 spells and 3-1 illusions with +2 DCs and several level 1 illusions treated at 0 level and several level 2 illusions treated at 1 level. Trying to get my DM to allow me into master specialist at level 3 instead of level 4.

Qanael
2008-09-08, 04:43 PM
My friend and I were just discussing a whisper gnome rouge last night and we came up with at level 1 that it beats all others at hiding: +20 at first level (+4 size, +4 racial, +5 dex mod, +4 rank, +3 skill focus) combined with silence 1/day. Personally at level 1, would have taken the extra silence feat instead of skill focus.

I originally asked about whisper gnomes due to making illusionist. Instead went with regular gnome but am a focused specialist gnome illusionist. Gnome illusionist racial substituion level 1 and focus specialist (illusions) with enchantment, evocation, necromancy as prohibited schools and -1 caster level on abjuration school. At level 1, I get 2-0 spells with 3-0 illusions and 0-1 spells and 3-1 illusions with +2 DCs and several level 1 illusions treated at 0 level and several level 2 illusions treated at 1 level. Trying to get my DM to allow me into master specialist at level 3 instead of level 4.

Creepy. I'm doing exactly the same thing, even with the same prohibited schools, for a 17th level campaign. My thread for it is on the first or second page, if you want to go through it - pretty sound advice and builds in there.

Also...please don't try the Echoing Shadow Miracles trick. Your DM will kill you.

Samakain
2008-09-08, 08:23 PM
I rolled a whisper gnome once, Nice Little Twitter he was to. i forget the exact layout but, Wizard/Rouge/Arcane Trick/Spellwarp Sniper.

No one saw him until they had a couple of Sneak attacked ice orbs in there back :D. Course the one thing that did find the guy was a dragon :( He got eaten.

I have to say i agree with alot of sentiment in this thread that if i saw Whispers with a +1LA i wouldn't have blinked, that its +0 is crazy awsome :)

Vexxation
2008-09-08, 08:25 PM
I love the idea mentioned on page one (well, referenced) of the Whisper Gnome party member nobody else knows about.

"Sweet, that troll just.. um.. died."
"Hey, my coin purse is getting heavier!"
"Whatever it is, I like it!"

Make it a Mute too, that's gotta be a Flaw somewhere.

TerrickTerran
2008-09-08, 09:11 PM
I have also done the focused illusionist with gnomes.......very fun to do.

I like Whisper Gnomes. They're great at skulking around but I don't see them as unbalanced. Definitely worse things out there at no level adjustment.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-08, 11:09 PM
I'm tempted to make an angsty LG Dark Whisper Gnome Cloistered Cleric of Kurtamalek that always hides due to his shame at being a race of genocidal Kobold-haters.

Actually, I may join a PbP here just so I can play that.

BobVosh
2008-09-09, 01:42 AM
My friend and I were just discussing a whisper gnome rouge last night and we came up with at level 1 that it beats all others at hiding: +20 at first level (+4 size, +4 racial, +5 dex mod, +4 rank, +3 skill focus) combined with silence 1/day. Personally at level 1, would have taken the extra silence feat instead of skill focus.

I originally asked about whisper gnomes due to making illusionist. Instead went with regular gnome but am a focused specialist gnome illusionist. Gnome illusionist racial substituion level 1 and focus specialist (illusions) with enchantment, evocation, necromancy as prohibited schools and -1 caster level on abjuration school. At level 1, I get 2-0 spells with 3-0 illusions and 0-1 spells and 3-1 illusions with +2 DCs and several level 1 illusions treated at 0 level and several level 2 illusions treated at 1 level. Trying to get my DM to allow me into master specialist at level 3 instead of level 4.

Dont forget to go nightmare spinner

Lord Denyuar
2008-09-09, 08:15 AM
Creepy. I'm doing exactly the same thing, even with the same prohibited schools, for a 17th level campaign. My thread for it is on the first or second page, if you want to go through it - pretty sound advice and builds in there.

Also...please don't try the Echoing Shadow Miracles trick. Your DM will kill you.

Actually, I have to admit, I was reading yours and your thread made me really start looking into this. However, the whisper gnomes got my attention because I was looking in Races of Stone and into the gnomish racial illusionist substitution levels and started thinking of an sneaky illusionist but decided to go with gnomes for the +1 DC. You are correct, I am going into the Shadows PRC (I forget actually name) but trying to do everything 1 level faster with that racial substitution trick. Convincing my DMs isn't too hard since I am one of the 2 DMs, My group only has 2 people who DM and we both want to play, so we decided to switch off this semester. So all I gotta to is convince the other and I think I did that 2 nights ago :smallbiggrin:.

SurlySeraph
2008-09-09, 10:09 AM
I'm tempted to make an angsty LG Dark Whisper Gnome Cloistered Cleric of Kurtamalek that always hides due to his shame at being a race of genocidal Kobold-haters.

Actually, I may join a PbP here just so I can play that.

But isn't Kurtulmak LE?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-09, 12:09 PM
But isn't Kurtulmak LE?Yeah, but I'll talk to the DM. The one-step thing is dumb anyways, and I just love the flavor.