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Swordguy
2008-09-06, 03:12 PM
Buddy of mine has the following issue in their D&D game. Suggestions? (No, I don't know the spell list, or if it's a DMM cleric, or if the Druid is doing all the smart stuff - I'll post replies here when and if I get them.)




So, in about 12 hours (call it 11pm EST, Saturday September 6th) I'm going to be in part 2 of an DnD3.5 adventure fighting a demon and I need some suggestions on how to kill it.

The demon is a Glabrezu.
Glabrezu (SRD) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#glabrezu)

My group has met and battled it before. I thought we did well in that fight several levels back, but upon reviewing the stats of the demon most of the players feel pretty dirty about how much the GM coddled us. The coddling won't happen in this adventure. Without some impressive ace-in-the-hole (or raw demon-killing damage), the party of 8th-10th level adventurers will be hard pressed to deal with it. Worse, the battle's going to be taking place in a cave system (probably), so the demon will have the option of closing.

We do have a day to prepare if we want - hell, we can teleport home and wait years to deal with the demon, but his horde is ravaging the countryside and I don't think the cleric is going to wait long.

I've got a 10th level mage (lawful neutral) with an incomplete spellbook for 4th and 5th level spells. There's also a 10th level Druid (neutral) and an 8th level Cleric (lawful good).

Between the demon's damage resistance (10/good), spell resistance 21 (45% of my spells will land), and elemental resistances (usually 10 to fire and acid, which are spells I make wide use of), I can't contribute much except magic missiles or utility spells.

Stupendous_Man
2008-09-06, 03:21 PM
conjurations?

black tentacles, glitterdust, orbs?

arguskos
2008-09-06, 04:01 PM
The cleric could make good use of holy smite and related spells. He could also go the whole "bless weapon, divine power, beat face" route.

The wizard should probably be using black tentacles, orb spells, maybe enervation. This of course assumes he has these spells. Since he probably doesn't (since he likes focusing on fire/acid), he may want to prepare useful party buffs/utility spells like haste, fly, stone shape, wall spells, etc.

The druid... I don't really know. I never use druids, so I'm not sure. Buff companion, wild shape into bear, cast spells of death?

-argus

monty
2008-09-06, 04:23 PM
If spell resistance is a problem, focus on either no-SR conjurations or buffs.

Also, magic missile doesn't count as contributing.

arguskos
2008-09-06, 04:25 PM
Also, magic missile doesn't count as contributing.
I disagree with this. If you'd said, "it doesn't count as contributing much", then sure. As is, Magic Missile is a fine spell. It hits reliably, does decent damage (esp when metamagic'd to be awesome), and costs nearly nothing. It isn't optimal, but it's hardly useless. I mean, he could be casting Flare at it. :smalltongue:

-argus

Gorbash
2008-09-06, 04:29 PM
No point in wasting 4th lvl spell (Tentacles) which will only slow his movement speed for one round, since he has +30 grapple modifier. Not to mention it my hinder you, since he can stand inside of the Tentacles area and attack you on the outside of it, since he has 15 ft reach. Then you'd have to come in and risk getting grappled yourself.

Orb of force is your only viable option, since he's got decent resists/immunities to other elements. Although the best way is to buff your party as much as you can (haste etc) and summon a few critters to at least soak the damage.

Btw. are you playing Shackled City AP?

monty
2008-09-06, 04:46 PM
I disagree with this. If you'd said, "it doesn't count as contributing much", then sure. As is, Magic Missile is a fine spell. It hits reliably, does decent damage (esp when metamagic'd to be awesome), and costs nearly nothing. It isn't optimal, but it's hardly useless. I mean, he could be casting Flare at it. :smalltongue:

-argus

Then I disagree as well. Magic missile does have a cost - opportunity cost. Preparing and/or casting it means you aren't preparing and/or casting something else - and compared to other spells of its level that would be effective in this particular situation (Protection from Evil, Mage Armor, Color Spray, Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Person, and that's just in core), it is almost useless - and it just gets worse if you add metamagic.

Also, don't forget that it's affected by spell resistance - buffs and conjurations aren't.

arguskos
2008-09-06, 04:51 PM
Then I disagree as well. Magic missile does have a cost - opportunity cost. Preparing and/or casting it means you aren't preparing and/or casting something else - and compared to other spells of its level that would be effective in this particular situation (Protection from Evil, Mage Armor, Color Spray, Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Person, and that's just in core), it is almost useless - and it just gets worse if you add metamagic.

Also, don't forget that it's affected by spell resistance - buffs and conjurations aren't.
I'll give you four of those five spells. Color Spray has an HD limitation that makes it pretty much useless here. Note that I'm not saying Magic Missile is better than those spells (it isn't), just that it's not as bad as all that.

Frankly, I tend to take Signature Spell (Magic Missile) so I can cast it whenever I feel like it, but that's just me.

All I'm saying is that MM isn't the worst thing EVAR. I mean, he could be casting Floating Disk, Animate Rope, Burning Hands, or, god forbid, Alarm. :smalltongue:

-argus

black dragoon
2008-09-06, 05:19 PM
Holy water. Lots and lots of holy water and holy symbols. that and if you can toss up a wall of blades to at least slow him down. and once again holy water. Gallons of the stuff.:smallbiggrin:

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-09-06, 05:31 PM
Come on people. The single most important spell he could use was not mentioned; Assay Resistance.

Once cast, all his spells practically ignore the demon's SR.

Keld Denar
2008-09-06, 05:33 PM
Hit it with this. Have the mage open with an Assay Spell Resistance and a Dimensional Anchor. This'll keep it from going anywhere. The Druid should engage it in some way to give it something to think about. Then the cleric should cast Turn Anathema (Cleric2 from Complete Champion). Its a demon, and he's LG, so he can either pick the Lawful or Good component of his alignment. Then, next round, the wizard can try with an Enervation, and the Cleric should attempt to turn it. Given a little bit of cha, and a little bit of luck, he should be able to nab it. I can't check the HD of a Glab at work, but I don't think they have more than 12ish? His chances of sucess go way up if he can get his hands on an Ephod of Authority (800g, MIC) and maybe a Phylactery of Undead Turning (12,000g DMG) or Sacred Armor/Shield (~9150g each A&EG) to raise his turn level a bit, or even level up once to get more on par with the other 2 party members.

Once its turned, beat it till it finds itself in hell again. Everyone but the cleric involved can participate.

monty
2008-09-06, 06:15 PM
I'll give you four of those five spells. Color Spray has an HD limitation that makes it pretty much useless here.

I wouldn't call 1 round of stunning useless. That's a round of free attacking and spellcasting for the rest of the party, with attacks against its flat-footed AC minus two. And I can almost guarantee that a party with any amount of sense will put out more than 3d4+3 damage in that round.

arguskos
2008-09-06, 06:19 PM
Uh, Color Spray gives a save (Will neg) and SR. So... how is one round of stun worth his time? Just sayin' :smallwink:

Anyway, I'm also curious where you get 3d4+3 damage. As a tenth level wizard. MM is dealing 5d4+5 at that point. Also just sayin'

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one though. I like unblockable force effects that always deal decent damage in a non-optimized setting. You prefer more powerful spells that sometimes do nothing. Fair enough. :smallcool:

-argus

Townopolis
2008-09-06, 06:22 PM
If your wizard has Assay Spell Resistance, he can WTFPWN pretty much any demon with a few spells. If not, teleport to the nearest city and learn it, then teleport back and WTFPWN the demon.

Ray of Clumsiness, or whatever it is should be in the SPC (where Assay is), that's your best bet probably. Hit him with Assay, then ray his DEX to 0, continue from there.

One tactic that worked against a marilith in a game I ran was Assay, Ray, Wings of Fury, WoF, WoF, WoF, WoF, WoF, WoF, WoF, WoF... you get the picture.

monty
2008-09-06, 06:26 PM
Uh, Color Spray gives a save (Will neg) and SR. So... how is one round of stun worth his time? Just sayin' :smallwink:

Anyway, I'm also curious where you get 3d4+3 damage. As a tenth level wizard. MM is dealing 5d4+5 at that point. Also just sayin'

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one though. I like unblockable force effects that always deal decent damage in a non-optimized setting. You prefer more powerful spells that sometimes do nothing. Fair enough. :smallcool:

-argus

5d4+5, yeah, that's what I meant. Still 25 damage at best (17.5 average), far less than even an unoptimized fighter is likely to put out in one round.

How about Lesser Orb of Sound? Against AC 8, you'll probably hit on anything except a 1, so almost as consistent. Same average damage and no SR.

Gorbash
2008-09-06, 06:27 PM
Assay SR goes without saying. Problem is, his saves are pretty high, so you can't really count on him failing and since he's a terrible combatant and every action is valuable, once you cast a spell, you must make sure he will suffer, so save-or- spells should be avoided. He also has good resists and immunities, so elemental damage are not the wisest choice. That being said, rays are the best option. Enfeeblement, enervation. He has Dex 10, so you can try anti-dragon tactics (either Shivering Touch or Ray of Clumsiness + Ray of Exhaustion if it's not enough + Waves of Fatigue if that's not enough), so you can easily take him down in 3 rounds tops. Although that's a pretty lame tactic, not to mention cheesy and meta-game, but if fellow party members start falling, that's a good way to avoid TPK.

If I were a 10th lvl wizard in that fight, I'd start combat with casting haste on the party and Assay SR on him. If I don't get Power Word: Stunned on his action, I'd cast quickened Ray of Enfeeblement (increasing party survivability a bit) and Enervation, followed by another one, that should drop his saves by 5 on average, so casting Feeblemind on him is a viable option, since now he has only +6 (or even less). Your DC should be at least 20 (for my wizard with 24 Int and Spell Focus (enchantment) it's 23), so you have a shot at knocking him down.

Be sure to cast Overland Flight on yourself before combat or Mass Fly in combat, so you can protect yourself or your allies against Reverse Gravity.


Still 25 damage at best (17.5 average), far less than even an unoptimized fighter is likely to put out in one round.

Well, not exactly true, he does have a DR/10 and fighter isn't likely to have a holy weapon at this point...

Eldariel
2008-09-06, 06:43 PM
I'd skip the Haste and go turn 1 Assay Resistance > Enervation (note that Assay Resistance only applies to the next spell you cast). That significantly weakens its combat-ability and will probably prompt it to Teleport away. If you truly wish to kill it, you need to hit it with a Dimensional Anchor or similar first. The problem with that is, you identify yourself as the Wizard and probably recieve its undivided attention as a consequence.

Actually, it would probably be the wisest if the Cleric opened up with Dimensional Anchor while the Wizard tries to connect with an Enervation. After that, the Druid should have no trouble evinscerating it in a turn or two as it isn't teleporting around the world. Of course, it'll try to summon a pal and if the probabilities do V's to you, you'll probably have to kill the summoner and force the other to retreat (it isn't like to pick up from where the other ended if it just got hit by an Enervation). Just hitting the other with an Enervation would do it (although this means 4 spent level 4 slots already).

Gorbash
2008-09-06, 06:57 PM
(note that Assay Resistance only applies to the next spell you cast)

Wrong. It affects one creature per casting and lasts for 1 round/lvl.


That significantly weakens its combat-ability and will probably prompt it to Teleport away.

-2.5 on attack rolls and saves isn't significantly and Glabrezu that teleports after that has the courage of an imp.


Actually, it would probably be the wisest if the Cleric opened up with Dimensional Anchor while the Wizard tries to connect with an Enervation. After that, the Druid should have no trouble evinscerating it in a turn or two as it isn't teleporting around the world.

170 hp in 2 rounds with DR/10 Good is beyond even druid's abilities, but yes, Cleric should cast Dimensional Anchor.

kme
2008-09-06, 07:02 PM
I have some feeling that this is core only campaign, so I'll just give some core suggestions.
If you somehow avoid/dispel power word stun, and he doesn't get another Glabrezu/Vrock buddy you can defeat him. Despite having SR 21 he still has mediocre Ref and Will saves of +8 and +11, so he is not that magic immune as he looks. He also has poor touch AC 8.

Cleric: He has two options, one is to buff and fight, the other is to buff, spam Bestow curse and then fight. He could also try Dismissal but it would be to much luck dependent since he is only lvl 8. Buffing the whole party before combat is also recommended.

Druid: He should probably fight, but DR will hurt him so you can see maybe there will be something better for him to do. Maybe spam Flame strike or summoning or battlefield control with wall of thorns, entangle, sleet storm... It someone needs dispelling, it should probably be Druid's job. Also buffing.

Wizard: First, before combat he should use a scrolls of stoneskin on everybody. In combat if he doesn't get hit with PWS here is a list of soe useful spells.
Dismissal: with an int score of 22 this spell has 20% chance of winning the encounter.
Feeblemind: depends on DM, but can be potentially a win button.
Hold Monster: this can be a set up for CDG
Magic Jar: this could be even better than dismissal but it's sort of tricky.
Enervation: no save, good debuff is always useful.
Resilient Sphere: this can save an ally or disable a vrock.
Fear: since he has teleport :S , but it could still be useful
Solid fog: because of teleport this will give you only one round, but that can be a lot.
Bestow curse: cleric should cast this, but its still good.
Slow: it's good.
Haste: good buff
Fly: if you are afraid of reverse gravity
Glitterdust: if he fails a save it's good
Web/Fog cloud: sort of like solid fog but less reliable.
Grease: no SR and targets Ref
Ray of Enfeeblement: no save good debuff.

Hope this helps a little.

Thurbane
2008-09-06, 07:09 PM
If you have any archer types, load up on Slaying Arrows (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsAW.html#slaying-arrow), and hope it fails a save...

Eldariel
2008-09-06, 07:17 PM
Seems I've misread (and played) Assay Resistance's limitations. That makes life easier. Anyways, if the Druid is buffed up, he should be pretty well off with the Animal Companion even without the more broken stuff around (and if the Glabrezu gets penalties to its saves, SoSing it becomes quite reasonable).

Oh course, something to bypass the DR would be golden, but a heavyhitting high Str form with a low number of attacks should be quite alright as things stand (things depend on which feats he's taken and which exact pump spells are available, of course) - 30-40 per hit should be quite achievable.

Animefunkmaster
2008-09-06, 07:32 PM
I am confused why anti-dragon tactics aren't being employed. They were already suggested too. Have the party pool some money together to obtain a rod of maximize lesser, casting shivering touch will finish the fight quickly. He will be helpless, his fort is pretty high, so it might be best to scyth him with some bonus damage on top of that (Perhaps a spell storing scyth with an orb inside of it). Otherwise you are looking at him teleport away. In fact, any combat that isn't finished in the first round, most likely will result in a teleport.

I personally don't find this tactic cheesy since it sounds that the players: Know what they are fighting, and have prep time. A Wizard with reasonable int should be able to devise such a plan. I wouldn't worry so much about the big guy, I would worry about the minions he has with him.

Keld Denar
2008-09-06, 07:47 PM
I am confused why anti-dragon tactics aren't being employed. They were already suggested too. Have the party pool some money together to obtain a rod of maximize lesser, casting shivering touch will finish the fight quickly. He will be helpless, his fort is pretty high, so it might be best to scyth him with some bonus damage on top of that (Perhaps a spell storing scyth with an orb inside of it). Otherwise you are looking at him teleport away. In fact, any combat that isn't finished in the first round, most likely will result in a teleport.

I personally don't find this tactic cheesy since it sounds that the players: Know what they are fighting, and have prep time. A Wizard with reasonable int should be able to devise such a plan. I wouldn't worry so much about the big guy, I would worry about the minions he has with him.

Friends don't let friends drink White Zin, or cast Shivering Touch. Just say no.

Gorbash
2008-09-06, 07:58 PM
I personally don't find this tactic cheesy since it sounds that the players: Know what they are fighting, and have prep time. A Wizard with reasonable int should be able to devise such a plan. I wouldn't worry so much about the big guy, I would worry about the minions he has with him.

Since we're talking about a real campaign here and not just 'prove that wizards are that awesome' topic, it's really a lame tactic in an encounter that should be heroic. Exploiting a weakness which I'm not sure you're even supposed to be aware of (Knowledge (planes) can tell you a finite number of his abilities and since he has a lot of them, his Dex 10 isn't one of them. It's an average stat, so you can't really call him slow and consider it trademark of Glabrezu demons) with few cheesy spells is lame. Not to mention you'll be overshadowing the party by dropping him in a round or two. If you take my approach, you'll be buffing the party, debuffing him and step by step bringing him down, which is way more heroic then 'haha I r wizard i wtfpwn eat my dust rest of the party' with spells like shivering touch. Even my approach which would take 3 spells is cheesy. Compare that to potential outright 'kill' with Shivering Touch. Even Logic Ninja said that it should be avoided. You're killing the fun with it. Also, it makes DM happy if you defeat challenges with core only spells (ray of enfeeblement, exhaustion, enervation, feeblemind) than by Spell Compendium.

Like I said, if your party starts dropping like flies, then you should resort to shivering touch/any other dex dropping tactic. Although I'd just teleport the whole party away and come back more prepared, but hey, that's just me.