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ken-do-nim
2008-09-06, 08:41 PM
Please don't post in this thread if you don't think monks are underpowered to start with.

Please tell me whether you think this (a) brings monks up to a respectable level (b) still doesn't help or (c) overdoes it.

Proposal:

1. Monks gain the powers of the kensai prestige class from Complete Warrior in addition to their normal ones from levels 11 to 20. (Alternately, the powers start at level 2 and are gained every other level afterwards). The kensai power surge is activated by a swift action that costs one stunning fist per round. Obviously then, without the rapid stun feat a monk can't power surge and stun in the same round. The ability to enchant their fists fixes the offensive issues due to lack of a magic weapon, and the power surge allows their wrestling or disarm tactics to work better. A monk's fists are still limited offensively due to damage reduction issuse and lower BAB than other melee classes.

2. A monk who only moves 1/6th of their full movement rate can still make a full attack. So at 1st level, 1/6th of a standard 30 feet is 5 feet, same as everybody else. At 9th level, a monk with a 60 foot movement rate can now move 10 feet and make a full attack. At 18th level, a monk with a 90 foot movement rate can move 15 feet and make a full attack. This is an attempt to synergize their high movement rate and the flurry of blows ability; without overdoing it.

Kyeudo
2008-09-06, 08:56 PM
I still don't see full BAB in there or a change to their more limited abilities, such as Quivering Palm and Dimension Door. With Full BAB and option 2, a monk might make a decent high mobility striker. With more hp, he might actually work on the front lines.

imperialspectre
2008-09-06, 08:59 PM
Both of the OP ideas are good. I would go with kensai starting level 2 and going every even level.

You do still need full BAB. If you do that, though, they're probably even with a reasonably well-played ranger or rogue (and possibly a more credible anti-caster threat than either).

streakster
2008-09-06, 09:19 PM
That's an interesting idea. I always favor the K/Frank monk or the unarmed swordsage, myself.

The Kensai's good - reflavor so it's chi or Ki or something that let's them set their fists on fire.

I like the movement idea too.

Hmm...why not paths? There could be the Way of the Elements (Kensai), the Way of Motion (1/6 full attack movement), and add in, say, an initiator/recovery mechanic (Way of Trained Mind) and a HP/BAB increase (Way of Trained Body). Of those, each monk picks two. Just a thought.

As for Quivering Palm, make it a 1/day save or die touch attack. Make Dimension Door, instead of mimicking the spell, give a specific number of feet that can be teleported per day that increases with level. This distance can be used up all at once, or in bits. Scrap Tongue of Sun and Moon entirely, and maybe some of the more useless/slash weird features, and replace with mroe bonus feats.

ken-do-nim
2008-09-06, 09:38 PM
Hmm...why not paths? There could be the Way of the Elements (Kensai), the Way of Motion (1/6 full attack movement), and add in, say, an initiator/recovery mechanic (Way of Trained Mind) and a HP/BAB increase (Way of Trained Body). Of those, each monk picks two. Just a thought.


Different monk paths are an excellent homebrew rule. I just figured that once you have the class 'properly balanced' you can add the different paths.



As for Quivering Palm, make it a 1/day save or die touch attack. Make Dimension Door, instead of mimicking the spell, give a specific number of feet that can be teleported per day that increases with level. This distance can be used up all at once, or in bits.


I'm fine making quivering palm 1/day, but I'd also make it require a will save come to think of it. That really differentiates it from using stunning fist.

I like your idea of breaking up the teleport distances.



Scrap Tongue of Sun and Moon entirely, and maybe some of the more useless/slash weird features, and replace with mroe bonus feats.

I would never, ever, get rid of Tongue of the Sun & Moon. Not only does it add flavor, but it is actually very useful to be able to converse with all living things - even plants.


Both of the OP ideas are good. I would go with kensai starting level 2 and going every even level.

You do still need full BAB. If you do that, though, they're probably even with a reasonably well-played ranger or rogue (and possibly a more credible anti-caster threat than either).

Gosh, you add full BAB onto that and I think it's overpowered now. Full kensai + monk abilities + full BAB + enhanced mobility? Remember that kensai power surge adds +4 to hit and damage...

Xyk
2008-09-06, 09:46 PM
I'd say if you add kensai abilities, you really don't need full BAB.

I really like the second part about mobility.

streakster
2008-09-06, 10:00 PM
Hmm. I personally dislike Tongue of Sun and Moon - it just seems like an odd ability for a monk to have. Ah well. A little reflavor splashed on, it'll fit fine.

Meditation of Oneness...that sounds monk-y...



The will save is a great idea. You're right about the paths, too - get it balanced, then balance each path against the existing ones. Much safer.

EDIT: Oh yeah, ripped off the distance from the Bleach d20 book. So no credit to me.

Krrth
2008-09-07, 12:12 AM
Take a look to the Everquest PnP book. The monks as described work decently. Full bab, scaling HtH damage, and the ability to make an extra attack, even with a move action.

Xenogears
2008-09-07, 08:13 AM
Battle Dancers are basically like monks except they have full BAB, get some different abilities (like flying and the ability to make a full attack after a charge), and use CHA instead of WIS. Also instead of Lawful they have to be Chaotic. They got the unarmed damage (not sure how it stacks up level by level but it ends with 2d10 instead of 1d20 so thats better), the AC bonus, some of the increased movement (maxes out at 60ft instead of 90ft), and some other abilities. The only downside is that all of their moves require you to pass a tumble check and you don't get Flurry of Blows. It's in the Dragon Compendium volume 1.

Although Tongue of the Sun and Moon is a tragic loss. That was a fun ability. Not terribly useful but fun.

Can someone tell me if the Kensei class from complete warrior is the same as the one from Oriental Adventures or just the same name?

Kurald Galain
2008-09-07, 08:38 AM
1. Monks gain the powers of the kensai prestige class from Complete Warrior in addition to their normal ones from levels 11 to 20.

2. A monk who only moves 1/6th of their full movement rate can still make a full attack.

These two don't help low-level monks. And yet low-level monks also need the help.

ken-do-nim
2008-09-08, 09:13 AM
Hmm. I personally dislike Tongue of Sun and Moon - it just seems like an odd ability for a monk to have. Ah well. A little reflavor splashed on, it'll fit fine.


I believe the thinking is that as a monk grows to understand the universe around her, she gets attuned to what everything is saying, "Listen to the river, listen to the trees, they are speaking if only you can hear them." Ever read Siddharta? [It was required reading in my high school]. Now that bit of fluff implies more of a one-way communication, but D&D generalized the ability to just call it speaking - but of course the DM can and should restrict it as appropriate. After all, how much can a blade of grass really say?

ken-do-nim
2008-09-08, 09:15 AM
These two don't help low-level monks. And yet low-level monks also need the help.

Okay, you're right. Now what I really want to do is create a system by which a monk trades movement for attacks. In other words, if we take a monk with 6 attacks, if they don't move more than 5 feet they get all 6. If they move say only 1/6 of their movement, they can get 5 attacks. 2/6 of their movement allows for 4 attacks. 3/6 gets 3 attacks. Etc.