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Criz Reborn
2008-09-07, 01:21 AM
So Im trying to decide whether or not to take the Cloistered Cleric variant feature. For those who dont know, see http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric
Is this a good trade-off? I kinda like the flavor of cloistered cleric, but im worried about my survivability. The cleric is going to focus on buffing/healing at lower levels, but will probably have the freedom to go on offense about level 7 or so.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-07, 01:30 AM
What are your other party members? If it's a large party with a strong frontline, CCs would probably be better, especially if you want Knowledge skills. If not, a normal Cleric would be better unless you're willing to use DMM and Knowledge Devotion to increase your fighting skills (this approach would take up feats which could be used for other things, though). The "Non-DMM Cleric" thread contains some useful information on CCs.

JeminiZero
2008-09-07, 01:36 AM
You gain all those skill points, but can't spend them on anything other than knowledge. And if you really wanted to be a walking encyclopedia with divine spells, Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) at least lets you put that Knowledge investment to practical use.

Might work better if you grab Able Learner, and take your first level in some skill monkey class. This unlocks all sorts of other skills for you.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-07, 01:49 AM
I agree that Archivists would work here. If you wanted to use a CC as a skill monkey, this thread could help you if your DM allows homebrew: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87679 (it's slightly pointless if there's already a Rogue in the group, though).

Kaihaku
2008-09-07, 01:59 AM
If a Wizard or Bard can survive so can a Cloistered Cleric can.

More easily, even. Go for a level in a Prestige Class like Dragon Slayer or War Priest to get back in heavy armor if you really need to. The drop in hitpoints isn't that big of deal. The drop in BAB doesn't matter at all, divine power'ed!

Personally, I think a high dex Cloistered Cleric in Mirthal Shirt is very survivable.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-07, 02:04 AM
Wizards aren't designed to go on the frontline at all, and I honestly wouldn't use a Bard in that roll unless it was essential (as I said about DMM, that costs a lot of feats which could be used for things which other classes can't do). Also, not all PrCs would fit with the flavour that CCs have while often having awkward prequisites.

Kaihaku
2008-09-07, 02:09 AM
Cloistered Clerics don't need to go front-line either but they can still function as extremely useful casters. At least, the one I played did - I wanted a priestess in robes style character, not an armored religious warrior, and she fit the caster role very well. The variant makes Cleric more like a caster and less like superman, it's very workable if you don't expect it to be the same as a standard Cleric.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-07, 02:15 AM
I know that (my comments about it not working as well in a smaller party were based around the idea that CCs need protecting much more then normal Clerics).

Akimbo
2008-09-07, 02:18 AM
Two things to consider:

PRCs?

Are you going to be attempting to hit things? Are you going to have Persistent Divine Power when you do?

If the answer to one is yes, then the answer is yes. If the answer to the second part of two is yes, then yes.

After that it get's complicated.

Personally, if I'm not building a DMM Persist Cleric my preferred path is:

Cloistered Cleric 3 (Spontaneous Domain variant)/Church Inquisitor 2/Divine Oracle 4/Church Inquisitor 1/Contemplative 10.

You lose 4HP and 1 BAB relative to a straight Cleric with same PrCs, and gain a bunch of skill points to dash around in knowledges and/or take every single language in the game.

Additionally you can prepare whatever spells you want as a Cleric, and then Spontaneously convert from your domains:

3 at level 1: (try to get a Planar one if you are doing this, or get one from contemplative, they offer two spells per level)
4 at level 4.
5 at level 6.
6 at level 11.
7 at level 16.

Never played it past 13, but spontaneous conversion of 4-6 domains is pretty awesome, when combined with being a Cleric.

Of course this build pretty much requires Spell Compendium to be worth it, because there is little point in being an offensive spellcaster Cleric without it.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-07, 02:21 AM
What are the prequisites for that PrC combination? Also, isn't being able to spontaneously cast Cure spells more useful then being able to do the same thing with Domains?

BobVosh
2008-09-07, 04:11 AM
What are the prequisites for that PrC combination? Also, isn't being able to spontaneously cast Cure spells more useful then being able to do the same thing with Domains?

Not if one of your domains is the healing domain. Then it is better. Much, MUCH better. Sub for Heal, ftw. Eventually mass heal and regenerate.

Akimbo
2008-09-07, 04:28 AM
What are the prequisites for that PrC combination? Also, isn't being able to spontaneously cast Cure spells more useful then being able to do the same thing with Domains?

Basically, Knowledge Religion, and burning a feat on skill focus knowledge religion. You also need to be very lawful goody, though you don't need that exact alignment.

And not really, I mean if you really care about spontaneous cures take the Healing domain as one of your seven.

But honestly, out of combat I heal with wands or one of the 500 ways to get infinite free healing. In combat, only heal is really worth it.

For a quick example, the character I played using this started as a Cleric of Heronious but found a secret sect of Hextor in the church, things got weird after that, and he drifted more neutral good, and left Heronious for concept (after a specific conversation with Heronious in which H defended his brother in a very goodly god kinda way.)

His domains where:

Knowledge, Good, Celestia, Inquisition, Oracle, and Purification.

So for 1st level spells he could spontaneously convert them into:

Protection from Evil, Light of Lunia, Shield of Faith, Nimbus of Light, Identify, Detect Chaos, and Detect Secret Doors.

And level 7: Anything prepared could be turned into:

Legend Lore, Holy Word, Dictum, Greater Scrying, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Regenerate, Summon Monster VII.

Just for the Spontaneous Dictum/Holy Word choice it's worth it.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-07, 06:47 AM
Thanks for the PrC explanation. That's a good point about Heal, BobVosh. Would Regenerate be that worthwhile in most games? I'd hope that it would be due to realism, but I don't think the standard rules really cover limb loss.

Eldariel
2008-09-07, 07:24 AM
Seeing that you basically never lose anything but HP, Regeneration is very weak without homebrew critical/attack part-rules (I personally like allowing any attack rolls exceeding the AC by 10 to target specific body part, and exceeding AC by 20 to threaten critical). But yea, spontaneous Cures are basically just for end-of-day Cure-dumping. For that job, a Wand of Lesser Vigor is just better. The only healing spells worth it are really Faith Healing, Heal and comparables. So yea, if one wants Spontaneous Heal, Healing-domain spontaneously available is the way to go. In fact, I always take the "domain spontaneity"-ACF from PHBII and if I want a Healer, I pick the Healing-domain and use it spontaneously (the ACF also makes the Healing-domain actually useful) to access the sweet spells it features.

What variant are you talking about though, Akimbo? The PHBII variant forces the choice of a single domain for the conversion and I'm not aware of any other ACF that allows spontaneous domain casting.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-07, 07:28 AM
That sounds like an interresting idea. What are the exact limb-loss penalties in your games? A friend who was DMing a solo game for me used a Homebrew system for that, but I don't know all the details (I'll try to aget them to post them on here).

onasuma
2008-09-07, 07:34 AM
Im going out soon, so Ill explain it briefly.

Basically, its ripped from a larp I do. Each limb lost causes 2 con drain. A person losing more than 2 limbs dies outright. Each leg also causes a halve on movement, when all are gone this reduces to 5ft requiring a full round action to move. A replacement leg reduces this penalty to -5ft, or -15 if both. Missing an arm is obvious, -12 penalties to all things using hands, nothing using 2 hands.

Thats the basics anyway.

Curmudgeon
2008-09-07, 08:13 AM
You gain all those skill points, but can't spend them on anything other than knowledge.

Might work better if you grab Able Learner, and take your first level in some skill monkey class. This unlocks all sorts of other skills for you. As an alternative to a level + Able Learner you could instead just take one level of Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon). Their Adaptive Learning ability fills most of the job of this combination, and thus saves you a feat.

But spending those skill points only on Knowledge skills isn't a bad thing at all.
The cleric is going to focus on buffing/healing at lower levels, but will probably have the freedom to go on offense about level 7 or so. Then you'll definitely want Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion). A Human Cloistered Cleric with only a 12 INT will be able to max out all 6 Knowledge skills that apply to identifying enemies, plus the caster's usual Concentration and Spellcraft requirements, but I'd suggest starting with 14 INT to be able to maximize Spot, too. Then with Knowledge Devotion you'll constantly be at +2 or +3 (at level 7) to hit and damage against everything -- and these numbers will only grow as your skills increase. Level 7 is when you get Divine Power, so you're fully prepared for offense.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-07, 08:16 AM
The Human Parago level would cause you to lose a caster level and a couple of skill points, though (I'd say the feat would be a better choice for that build).

Abstruse
2008-09-07, 09:20 AM
Personally, if I'm not building a DMM Persist Cleric my preferred path is:

Cloistered Cleric 3 (Spontaneous Domain variant)/Church Inquisitor 2/Divine Oracle 4/Church Inquisitor 1/Contemplative 10.

You lose 4HP and 1 BAB relative to a straight Cleric with same PrCs, and gain a bunch of skill points to dash around in knowledges and/or take every single language in the game.

Additionally you can prepare whatever spells you want as a Cleric, and then Spontaneously convert from your domains:

3 at level 1: (try to get a Planar one if you are doing this, or get one from contemplative, they offer two spells per level)
4 at level 4.
5 at level 6.
6 at level 11.
7 at level 16.

Never played it past 13, but spontaneous conversion of 4-6 domains is pretty awesome....
It's kind of a pity that Spontaneous Domain Casting is nowhere near as impressive as you think it is.


Spontaneous Domain Casting
...
Benefit: You can convert stored spell energy into the spells of one of your domains. Pick one of your two domains. You can "lose" any prepared spell (other than a domain spell) to cast any spell of the same level or lower on that domain list.

Your build is nowhere near as flexible as you believe it to be. Moreover, if you didn't take the Healing domain as your "chosen" one, then you can't spontanteously heal the wounded members of your party.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-07, 12:23 PM
It's kind of a pity that Spontaneous Domain Casting is nowhere near as impressive as you think it is.



Your build is nowhere near as flexible as you believe it to be. Moreover, if you didn't take the Healing domain as your "chosen" one, then you can't spontanteously heal the wounded members of your party.
Perhaps he meant Domain Spontaneity (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Domain_Spontaneity,all)?

A human Cloistered Cleric, Good-aligned, for the specific build he listed...

1st: Domain Spontaneity (Domain 1)
Human Bonus: Domain Spontaneity (Domain 2)
3rd: Skill Focus(Knoweledge(Religion)) (PrC requirement for one PrC)
6th: Domain Spontaneity (Domain 3)
9th: Domain Spontaneity (Domain 4)
12th: Domain Spontaneity (Domain 5)
15th: Domain Spontaneity (Domain 6)
18th: Domain Spontaneity (Domain 7)

You'll want a high Charisma to go with it, and perhaps a lot of nightsticks, but it does make for an insane spellcaster.

Edit:
Hmm.... Obad-Hai, no racial restrictions, six different domains, and you get to choose four over the course of 20 levels. Fire (Cleric base), Plant (Cleric base), Air (Contemplative 1), and Earth (Contemplative 6), say. Plus, of course, you get the set domains Knoweledge(Contemplative-1), Inquisition (Church Inquisitor-1), and Oracle (Divine Oracle-1). Feat order:

1st: Domain Spontaneity (Plant)
Human Bonus: Domain Spontaneity (Fire)
3rd: Skill Focus(Knoweledge(Religion)) (PrC requirement)
6th: Domain Spontaneity (Inquisition)
9th: Domain Spontaneity (Oracle)
12th: Domain Spontaneity (Air)
15th: Domain Spontaneity (Knoweledge)
18th: Domain Spontaneity (Earth)

You maintain your ability to spontaneously Cure (or Inflict - you need to be LN with this combination, so either works), which means that, at 18+, you can do nine different things with any given spell slot (1st level or higher) as long as you still have Turn attempts left (Cast whatever it was that you prepared, Convert to cure/Inflict, Convert to Plant domain spell, convert to Fire domain spell, convert to Inquisition domain spell, convert to Oracle domain spell, convert to Air domain spell, convert to Knoweledge domain spell, convert to Earth domain spell - although there is a small amount of overlap between domains; Knoweledge and Oracle both have Divination, Foresight, Legend Lore, and Discern Location, for example).