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J.Gellert
2008-09-07, 04:10 AM
I am trying to build a specific type of character, but have no idea where to start looking for a base class. Basically all I need is good BAB, and good skill selection. And it has to be strength-based (damn Swashbucklers), and get no spells. Is there any such class around?

Alternatively, if you could take the Hexblade and give up his spellcasting and his familiar, would more skills make a good trade?

Finally, for PRCs, what is the general agreement on the Ghost-faced killer, is it good or bad?

Behold_the_Void
2008-09-07, 04:16 AM
Warblade gets good skills and good BAB and also rocks the house as far as melee is concerned.

Not sure on the Ghost-Faced Killer, he's off the Ninja which is considered a bit sub-par as I recall.

Adumbration
2008-09-07, 04:47 AM
Scout, maybe?

JackMage666
2008-09-07, 04:59 AM
Using Complete Warrior, you can make a spell-less Ranger. That's pretty much the exact goal of what you're going for. Just use two weapon fighting (or disregard fighting style - I usually do.)

Keld Denar
2008-09-07, 09:52 AM
You could use an alternative (non-LG) paladin, using the Holy Warrior sub levels in Complete Champ. Basically, you sacrifice you spellcasting for a hand full of Fighter bonus feats, check out CC for more details. Even if you only take 4 levels of it, you still wind up with Divine Grace, Turn/Rebuke Undead (for powering Divine feats), Smite once a day, and a bonus feat. Not bad.

Typically, melee builds tend to be pretty mutt prior to gaining PrC access. Just take like, 2 levels of Fighter, 1 of Barb, and maybe 2-3 of Ranger or Hexblade or something, mixing and matching class features, bonus feats, and skill lists until you qualify for PrCs. My favorite non-ToB build is something like Dwarf Ftr2/Barb1/Ranger2/Deepwarden2/ExoticWeaponMaster1/OccultSlayer5/PiousTemplar7 using a Dwarven Urgosh. The first 5 levels are very exactly spaced to meet the skill requirements to get into Deepwarden and Occult Slayer in a timely manner.

Alternatively, you really really can't go wrong with ToB. Warblade is probably best for BAB, skill, and maneuver selection, although Crusaders are VERY fun as well.

Ghost-Faced Killer is pretty weak. Sudden Strike is inferior in every way to Sneak Attack, which is pretty average as far as power goes. Most Ghost-Faced Killer builds I've seen are based around Avenging Executioner and things like Frightful Presence or that one fear charging feat. The trick is to stack on fear effects as fast as possible, elevating your opponents from Shaken to Frightened to Paniced in a single attack, thus rendering them almost helpless. While this can be effective, lots of things are immune to Fear based or Mind Affecting based effects, thus limiting your options. For example, once you finally get most of the features you need for the build, NPC groups you may fight could be under the influence of a Hero's Feast, which makes eaters immune to Fear and Poison based effects almost all day. Thus, you're whole build is nerfed by a non-action of almost every cleric you'll face from about 10th level on.

J.Gellert
2008-09-07, 04:04 PM
Alright, I'll have a look at Tome of Battle. Spell-less ranger seems fun, but I do not care for many of the ranger's nature-oriented abilities. I had thought of using paladin but it's going to be an evil campaign :smalltongue:

Thanks for the input, everyone!

Aneantir
2008-09-07, 04:06 PM
Alright, I'll have a look at Tome of Battle. Spell-less ranger seems fun, but I do not care for many of the ranger's nature-oriented abilities. I had thought of using paladin but it's going to be an evil campaign :smalltongue:

Thanks for the input, everyone!

If you're really interested in being a Paladin, why not use one of the variants for different alignments?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-09-07, 05:04 PM
I've always sort of liked the idea behind Ghost-Faced Killer, but haven't tried it out yet. I would probably include Paladin of Tyranny (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofTyrannyClassF eatures) 3+ for the Aura of Despair, along with the feat Frightful Presence from the Draconomicon so they'd get another -2 to saves for being Shaken, plus Ability Focus: Frightful Attack for another +2 DC. That would also have some nice Cha synergy for your own saving throws and your DCs for Frightful Attack and Frightful Presence.

You should also include Urban Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantUrbanRang er), and keep in mind that there are additional fighting styles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantUrbanRang er) in Dragon 326, all conveniently located on page 100 of that link.

You'll need Intimidate as a class skill, so maybe go Human with Able Learner, and take Urban Ranger 1/ Fighter 1/ Paladin of Tyranny 3/ Ghost-Faced Killer 10. That should get you all the skills you'd need to qualify, and you can take Frightful Presence at level 6, Ability Focus: Frightful Attack at 9, and Ability Focus: Frightful Presence at 12. Remember that your Ghost Step ability is not automatically dismissed when you attack, it grants Invisibility as the condition which does not have the limitations of Invisibility as the spell. The feat Frightful Presence does not specify that opponents must see you to be affected, it suggests that your mere presence stirs fear in the hearts of your opponents. Also keep in mind that while you don't have enough levels in any of your classes to cast spells, you can still use any wand or staff of any spell on either class spell list as long as your Wisdom score is high enough. Wands of Cure Light Wounds are far cheaper than buying potions, and are extremely useful for healing up between encounters.

FMArthur
2008-09-07, 09:54 PM
I've always sort of liked the idea behind Ghost-Faced Killer, but haven't tried it out yet. I would probably include Paladin of Tyranny (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofTyrannyClassF eatures) 3+ for the Aura of Despair, along with the feat Frightful Presence from the Draconomicon so they'd get another -2 to saves for being Shaken, plus Ability Focus: Frightful Attack for another +2 DC. That would also have some nice Cha synergy for your own saving throws and your DCs for Frightful Attack and Frightful Presence.

You should also include Urban Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantUrbanRang er), and keep in mind that there are additional fighting styles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantUrbanRang er) in Dragon 326, all conveniently located on page 100 of that link.

You'll need Intimidate as a class skill, so maybe go Human with Able Learner, and take Urban Ranger 1/ Fighter 1/ Paladin of Tyranny 3/ Ghost-Faced Killer 10. That should get you all the skills you'd need to qualify, and you can take Frightful Presence at level 6, Ability Focus: Frightful Attack at 9, and Ability Focus: Frightful Presence at 12. Remember that your Ghost Step ability is not automatically dismissed when you attack, it grants Invisibility as the condition which does not have the limitations of Invisibility as the spell. The feat Frightful Presence does not specify that opponents must see you to be affected, it suggests that your mere presence stirs fear in the hearts of your opponents. Also keep in mind that while you don't have enough levels in any of your classes to cast spells, you can still use any wand or staff of any spell on either class spell list as long as your Wisdom score is high enough. Wands of Cure Light Wounds are far cheaper than buying potions, and are extremely useful for healing up between encounters.

Are my games unusual in that they follow the multiclass XP penalty rules? I see a lot of builds with multiple base class dips on these boards. :smallconfused:

MeklorIlavator
2008-09-07, 09:58 PM
Are my games unusual in that they follow the multiclass XP penalty rules? I see a lot of builds with multiple base class dips on these boards. :smallconfused:

Well, only the Paladin of Tyranny 3 levels would activate those penalities, so either be something with Favored class and or Paladin and you'd be fine. I personally disregard them for my games, but I've never really seen someone try and take advantage of it.

BardicDuelist
2008-09-07, 10:02 PM
Are my games unusual in that they follow the multiclass XP penalty rules? I see a lot of builds with multiple base class dips on these boards. :smallconfused:

As far as I know, yes. Most people I've played with think those rules suck giant monkey nuts (not because they want to optimize either, as they are the opposite of powergamers, enjoying core only fighters).

FMArthur
2008-09-07, 10:04 PM
Right, forgot that favored class (highest level class for humes) ignores MC penalties. Maybe I'll make use of more complicated builds in the future, then.

Dode
2008-09-07, 10:10 PM
I am trying to build a specific type of character, but have no idea where to start looking for a base class. Basically all I need is good BAB, and good skill selection. And it has to be strength-based (damn Swashbucklers), and get no spells. Is there any such class around?
Yeah, either Barbarian or Warblade.

Glyphic
2008-09-07, 10:10 PM
Multi-class EXP penalties tend to penalize Melee types more often than casters, as well. Plus, it's a pain to book keep.

Lord Tataraus
2008-09-07, 10:31 PM
Are my games unusual in that they follow the multiclass XP penalty rules? I see a lot of builds with multiple base class dips on these boards. :smallconfused:

Yep. Honestly, that rule is crap and is too much of a bookkeeping hastle anyway. Actually I don't even use XP in my games, the player's level up when the campaign requires. This method is also really good to completely get rid of the XP farming syndrome and trying to kill everything in sight since it has absolutly no effect on leveling up, or a negative effect if any.

BizzaroStormy
2008-09-07, 10:50 PM
Warblade seems to be one of the better choices. Lots of nifty combat tricks that all usually result in relatively immense damage.

Proven_Paradox
2008-09-07, 10:50 PM
I've never been in a game that has actually kept up with multiclassing XP penalties myself. No one wants to deal with the bookkeeping.

As for the original question, I think the best choice for this would be warblade--full BAB, hella melee focus, and class features that key off intelligence so you can have that higher to reap those benefits as well as skill points.

If the ToB isn't available (first, my condolences) an intelligent barbarian is surprisingly well suited to certain skill tasks. I mean, supposedly int is the barbarian's dump stat according to the stereotype, but they get 4+int points per level. A good intelligence means you can do well at several skills.

You could also go ranger. You could go down the archery line and carry a two handed weapon. Get a high strength composite bow, load up on strength, and go to town. If you'd rather not have dex in the picture, you might take the wild shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) variant; trade combat styles for wild shape and fast movement. The thing with this one is that having high strength is rather useless because you'll just use your wild shape's strength...

Rei_Jin
2008-09-08, 12:17 AM
Whilst it's not a specific class, the following combination could work very well for what you're looking for.

1 Rogue

Take the Able Learner feat (MUST be human to do so)

x Barbarian


You now have Conan the Librarian. Congratulations.

dspeyer
2008-09-08, 12:32 AM
UA also has a rogue variant that gets fighter bonus feats instead of sneak attack. It still gets 8+int skills and roue special abilities. 3/4 BAB isn't bad, though d6HD is a little weak. Maybe mix it with barbarian, if you can make the fluff work.

A non-casting urban ranger might still be better, though.

bigbaddragon
2008-09-08, 02:06 AM
The Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/mYkD5jL8N9SAcClN3pZ.html) from this very site. The class provides "normal" and Avatar form which have different HD, BAB, saves, skills per level and class skills. Its intended for good characters but there is also an option for evil guys too (you just have to change references from good to evil and from evil to good). It does get paladin like spellcasting but you can see with your DM to get rid of it via no spellcasting paladin variant. Anyway, you cannot cast spells while in the Avatar form (which, btw, gets 4 additional ability points at first level and one additional point at each level thereafter) so you may not need to do that at all.

Blackfang108
2008-09-08, 04:36 PM
:smallfrown:If it wasn't for the fact that you don't want Magic, Duskblade would be perfect for you.

No spell failure for light armor from the get go, and then medium armor at midlevels, and shields shortly after that.

Full BAB. Simple and Martial proficency. Medium armor and non-tower shield proficiency.

Str focused for melee, good hp (d10 IIRC, don't have the book here), good skill points and class skills. Int based spellcasting, which is good for the skills as well.

you can take able learner as a human to make everything a class skill to make life even easier.

you can channel touch spells through your weapon, causing damage and status.

Quicken spell class feature. Spell resistance roll bonus against anything you hit with your weapon.

All moot with your desire for no magic...

Curmudgeon
2008-09-08, 09:24 PM
I think Ranger is the way to go. As an alternative to the Variant Ranger (Complete Warrior page 13), you could choose the Champion of the Wild (Complete Champion page 50). The former gets specific abilities instead of spells; the latter gets bonus feats that you can choose. (And don't be perturbed by the name; these are martial feats that have nothing to do with wilderness stuff.)

As for getting away from the nature stuff, you've got lots of options:

Urban Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantUrbanRang er) (Unearthed Arcana page 55)
Half-Elf Ranger (Races of Destiny pages 158-159)
a whole slew of urban options from a web enhancement for Cityscape (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)
Distracting Attack (Players Handbook II): trade animal companion to make enemies flanked
Mix in 2-3 of these variants and you've got something that's distinctly different from the PH Ranger.

dspeyer
2008-09-08, 09:36 PM
Incidentally, the other thing that gets good melee and skills are racial hit dice for dragons and outsiders. Both get full BAB and all saves. Dragons get d12 HD and 6+int skills; outsiders get d8 and 8+int. Savage Species has rules for starting these creatures below their MM ECL.

Just an alternative option.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-08, 11:06 PM
Good BAB and good skills? The problem is your no-spellcasting requirement. Can you give us more info about the concept? There may be a class/combo that we're overlooking that works for you.

J.Gellert
2008-09-09, 03:56 AM
Don't worry I've ended up with an idea that works :) Thanks for the help!

nargbop
2008-09-10, 11:01 PM
I find that a lot of character backstories are Rogueish. Starting off with one level of Rogue gives you lots of skill points spread all over the sheet. Then go into Smashy Smashy goodness like the first two fighter levels, then go into no-spellcasting Ranger for the rest.

Or! Negotiate with your DM to homebrew something. Fighter with fewer feats but more skill points. Barbarian with limited weapons proficiences but more skill points. Stuff like that.

Paul H
2008-09-14, 07:24 PM
Hi

Why no spells? Just because you have them doesn't mean you have to use them.

Then there's the feat to convert your spells into attack/damage bonuses. Works well for Duskblades.

Otherwise take Barbarian.

Cheers
Paul H