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Proven_Paradox
2008-09-07, 09:43 PM
So, the game last night. It was kind of a flop in many ways, but it was the second game and I'm still feeling this group out. That it didn't go terribly well tells me a lot more about this group than it going well would have, and I have a good idea of what I need to do to make future games better.

That's not what this thread is about, though.

See, the game ended with what was supposed to be a climactic fight with a modified Earth Elemental--made fast instead of strong, and wielding a scythe instead of slams. 3.5 game, party consists of: Sorceress currently focusing in battlefield control and save or sucks, rogue archer, barbarian, favored soul focusing on buffs, and a shadow hand/diamond mind swordsage, all level 4. The swordsage has a good 25 AC--seriously hard to hit at this point--but has low HP. I designed this elemental with the idea that he would have a high attack bonus--+14--but low damage. If the thing had to focus on the barbarian, he'd basically automatically hit, but would take a while to do enough damage to threaten him. If he focused on the swordsage, he'd have a hard time hitting, but the character would only be able to take 2 or 3 hits. Natrually, crits change everything. I made it very clear that this thing was wielding a scythe--x4 multiplier and all--and grined a bit as they all made they connection at the same time.

The battle starts, and the swordsage quickly gets the thing's attention, figuring that his high AC would protect him. I was getting ready to disappoint him... Then rolled a 3. Next round, a 4. 3, 6, 7, 2, 5, and so on. The one twenty I roll is a reflex save that the elemental can easily make anyway. The fight dragged on with the big elemental missing over and over again, and the swordsage getting terribly cocky. This entire thing was meant in part to knock him down a peg--he'd had a similar experience the previous session. The entire fight ended with me having rolled above 10 once, after about 10 rounds. The swordsage player is cockier than ever now, and I'm left pondering what should have happened.

So, what do you, as a DM, do when you're rolling poorly on a fight? So poorly that a fight that should be climactic and dangerous ends up just looking silly?

Flickerdart
2008-09-07, 09:49 PM
Fudge the roll. This is why you need a DM screen.

Xenogears
2008-09-07, 09:53 PM
Just go with it. If it turns out silly then just laugh about it, make some jokes, and try to make a climactic fight next session. Sometimes the enemy screwing up or even the PC's screwing up can be awesome. In a Warhammer RPG game I am playing the DM is also a PC and he NEVER hits. Literally. We have been in about six fights (some of which involved 5 or more enemies) and he only hit once or twice in all the fights combined. In almost every fight he gets taken down to zero HP in about two rounds and has to run away and come back after the rest of the party finishes the fight. We just laugh about it and poke fun at him.

Raum
2008-09-07, 10:10 PM
So, what do you, as a DM, do when you're rolling poorly on a fight? Remember all the times the rolls went the other and grin silently at the player. Change tactics if you can. But never be disappointed with rolls, they'll even out in the long run. Perhaps even more importantly, never show disappointment. Just grin and let them wonder. :smallcool:


So poorly that a fight that should be climactic and dangerous ends up just looking silly?Eh, don't rely on rolls to make a fight 'climactic' or 'dangerous'. A truly dangerous fight will have the players worried before you roll. Climactic battles are a culmination of all that has come before. Neither needs rolls.

Also remember that you will have another NPC coming up in the next adventure arc...

FMArthur
2008-09-07, 10:53 PM
You could just increase the number of rolls, making it more likely to succeed at something. You can do this by putting in more enemies (obviously), or making use of abilities like Pounce (full attack on a charge), free/swift/immediate action abilities (mostly for spells and maneuvres), using monsters with bigger HP/AC/Saves (longer lifespan = more turns to act), and maybe even Celerity cheese w/ daze immunity (nothing scares players more than a monster that gets to act out of order. It makes strategies against it more unreliable).

holywhippet
2008-09-07, 11:00 PM
Clearly that d20 is faulty. Replace it.

Also, as some else mentioned, numbers can be more dangerous than one big, strong enemy. Even small enemies like goblins can be a threat as you increase the odds of a getting a critical hit.

Chronos
2008-09-07, 11:04 PM
The whole reason we use dice, is that sometimes they don't do what we expect. If every fight always went exactly according to plan, the game would be a lot more boring. Just roll with it.

Pink
2008-09-07, 11:11 PM
I'm slowly learning that sometimes, as a DM, the dice roll is just there for the effect. The swordsage is getting too cocky? Roll the dice, look down, give a smile and say that the elemental finally figured out an opening in his defense and slices at him.

Not saying to completely ignore the dice. But sometimes you have to think, okay, need to remind them that this is combat. Need to take down their resources a little. Need to have a bit of a challenge. So maybe make one out of four or five of those misses a hit.

That being said I also think this should go both ways, especially if it's an encounter not designed to be climatic or something like that, but just a random fight that shouldn't have mass casualties. I had one situation, the party was level two and one of the players had just rolled up a new character, but it was a +1 la race so he had lower hit points. The next battle, I roll damage that would've completely killed his wounded character. I ignored the roll and gave him enough to just put him in the mid negatives.

Remember though, overall fun is that goal. If everyone is having fun with what the dice are rolling, so be it. If things are just getting boring "Oh, the enemy missed again, can we just end the combat now and say we killed it?" well, make them not boring.

of course, all this advice requires a screen.

Xenogears
2008-09-07, 11:20 PM
Well if you are just going to ignore the dice roll and hit him anyway then why should he have bothered to make a character with high AC. He made a character and designed him to have high AC and he should be allowed to reap the benefits of it.

BobVosh
2008-09-07, 11:39 PM
Not to mention 25 isn't exactly spectacular, it is a good solid ac for the level. Remember the way around low hp high ac is always evocation school. Not the best for pcs, but still great for NPCs. And I mean evocation in any of the ways it is possible, small dragons with breaths etc.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-07, 11:42 PM
One thing I've learned over the years of DMing is that you shouldn't design encounters that must go a certain way to "work." Fudging the dice is something that should be done rarely, if at all, and never to screw over a PC. It's bad enough if you have to hijack the game mechanics to keep your story going (it becomes awkward railroading at that point) but to hijack the mechanics just to take a player down a peg? That's needlessly antagonistic for D&D.

If you really want to take the PC down a notch, then put him in a situation where his vaunted powers won't solve everything. Maybe it's a social encounter, or being forced to run from an obviously overwhelming force, but it shouldn't be a situation where combat is the answer.

That said, I highly advise against using in-game means to deal with an out-of-game problem (player swagger). If it just annoys you personally, then you really, really shouldn't use in-game stuff to get back at him - that's just passive-aggressive behavior which doesn't help anything. Now, if he's bothering the other players, or disrupting the game, then take him aside and talk to him privately. Remember that D&D is a cooperative venture between DMs and Players: if everyone is having fun, there's nothing to fix.

Yakk
2008-09-07, 11:48 PM
Don't rely on rolls to make a capstone encounter count.

Especially not a single attack roll per round.

Burrowing, earth quake powers, minions. Ideally a form change (everyone loves form changes!) Toss tropes at the players.

Then, if the monster keeps missing, you can simply narrate the kick-assed-ness of the PCs.

Proven_Paradox
2008-09-08, 12:13 AM
I'm not worried as much about taking the player down a peg--I was hoping to show that even his strongest feature isn't beyond failure. This was a poor choice, and next time, there will be an encounter or two that targets his weak point--fort saves. His HP is low for a reason after all. The final encounter in the next game is going to involve a high level druid I think.

There was no screen for this game, and the game environment isn't well suited to having one anyway. We sit around on a bunch of couches; I don't have a table in front of me. Dice rolling occurs on a small in-table next to me, and it's too small to do much more than roll the dice on it. This is occuring in the sorceress and swordsage's apartment, and asking them to rearrange their place strikes me as a bit much.


Anyway, as for flubbing, I'll admit that I do it. However, I'm philosophically opposed to ever flubbing in such a way that it harms the player. When I flub, it's usually to keep a character from being killed simply because of the dice. Critical hits, for example, sometimes do just enough damage to put them from full down to -8 HP. More an issue at low levels--I don't flub beyond level 5. At that point there is something that could have been done to keep the character alive.

In addition to taking this player down a peg, I had hoped to drive the point home to the player AND the character--who is getting arrogant in character, perfectly naturally--that this world is dangerous and he needs to be cautious. Like I said, I obviously had taken the wrong approach to this, and the next fight will be far more dangerous for him. If he's still alive after the next one, and if the point isn't driven home yet, I will take the player aside and discuss some things with him then. Still, the encounter brought the topic to my mind.

Xenogears: The thing is, I'm wanting a more serious fight. If we sit back and laugh at it, that's fine, but it's definitely second best.

Raum: Part of my problem with that situation is that I have a terrible poker face. I'm not difficult to read. The swordsage and sorceress players both know when I'm BSing them.

Arthur: The battle happened in extreme close quarters; charges didn't happen. Minions were involved, but with their piddling +7 attack rolls, they had little chance of hitting this guy's AC even on a good roll. Going for critical hits isn't going to do much; they still have to make the confirmation roll after all. Too many weaklings just bogs combat down.

Whippit: I've played in games where large numbers of mooks are the threat. There are few things more boring than a combat that primarily involves me watching the DM roll misses. If given the choice between a fight against a bunch of weaklings and one or two threatening enemies, I will always go with the latter.

BobVosh: Anything that involves touch attacks or reflex saves is going to completely fail against this particular character. It's a halfling with dex focus. He doesn't have evasion yet, but he's going to eat those reflex saves except on extremely low rolls. Like I said, his weakness is fortitude.

Yakk: Earthquake powers are definately going to be involved in larger versions of these creatures, but this happened in the middle of a crowded city... Causing earthquakes would have destroyed buildings. That was not my intention with this event. The big one was a fusion of four smaller ones that the group had already defeated, so there's your form change.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-08, 12:27 AM
Yo be honest, I agree with Xenogears about fudging rolls (my stance is that the DM should be completely honest about their rolls at all times). What is the Swordsage's Con? I'm curious due to how I would have thought that would be an important stat for Swordsages.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-08, 12:28 AM
In addition to taking this player down a peg, I had hoped to drive the point home to the player AND the character--who is getting arrogant in character, perfectly naturally--that this world is dangerous and he needs to be cautious. Like I said, I obviously had taken the wrong approach to this, and the next fight will be far more dangerous for him. If he's still alive after the next one, and if the point isn't driven home yet, I will take the player aside and discuss some things with him then. Still, the encounter brought the topic to my mind.

Hmm... if you just want to make the campaign world seem more dangerous, then there's nothing like atmosphere & innocent sacrifice to establish the mood.

Aside from all the other suggestions (very good ones!), I've found it easiest to establish "lethality" by things which don't affect the character directly. Atmospherics (spooky descriptions, distinctly unnatural traits in NPCs, etc.) can put the player on edge nicely without trying to fight mechanics. Additionally, introducing NPCs that the PCs can get attached to, and then killing them off, can help too.

Now, I'm not talking about Stuffed in a Fridge (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge?from=Main.StuffedInTheFridge) kind of stuff, but more like "caught in the blast of a fireball" sort of things. Non-adventurers are very fragile, and many 3e characters just aren't very good at protecting others from collateral damage. Having the characters realize that the stuff they can knock over (relatively) easily is still lethal enough to cause "real" damage may do just the trick.

A quick and easy example is the PCs are ambushed in the Inn where they are staying by callous killers. Perhaps you have a Drow Ranger Assassin riding around on a Gorgon that busts through the front door while the PCs are enjoying a night regaling wenches with tales of their adventures. The Gorgon lets out a paralyzing gas blast that the PCs probably will save against, but the barmaids, innkeeper, and so on aren't going to do as well. If the PCs have tons of healing, have a couple of those statutes get trampled by a charge attack by the Gorgon, making them "dead forever."

Trust me, your swordsage is going to take adventuring a lot more seriously after he tries to pick up the pieces of Zola the Barmaid, who he'd been flirting with for a couple of days, even if he dispatched the Drow & Gorgon in 3 rounds. :smallamused:

Proven_Paradox
2008-09-08, 12:43 AM
What is the Swordsage's Con? I'm curious due to how I would have thought that would be an important stat for Swordsages.

As I recall, 10 or 12. Con is indeed a very important stat for swordsages, but dex and wisdom are both more important, so he has prioritized those. He also wants good skill points, and has a high int for that. Between that and getting his strength high enough after the halfling penalty to not have a penalty, he was lacking in points for con.


Hmm... if you just want to make the campaign world seem more dangerous, then there's nothing like atmosphere & innocent sacrifice to establish the mood.

Dangerous, not dark. You can have a dangerous place without having a dark atmosphere. Innocent sacrifices will happen later, though; that's already planned.


Aside from all the other suggestions (very good ones!), I've found it easiest to establish "lethality" by things which don't affect the character directly. Atmospherics (spooky descriptions, distinctly unnatural traits in NPCs, etc.) can put the player on edge nicely without trying to fight mechanics. Additionally, introducing NPCs that the PCs can get attached to, and then killing them off, can help too.

Now, I'm not talking about Stuffed in a Fridge (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge?from=Main.StuffedInTheFridge) kind of stuff, but more like "caught in the blast of a fireball" sort of things. Non-adventurers are very fragile, and many 3e characters just aren't very good at protecting others from collateral damage. Having the characters realize that the stuff they can knock over (relatively) easily is still lethal enough to cause "real" damage may do just the trick.

A quick and easy example is the PCs are ambushed in the Inn where they are staying by callous killers. Perhaps you have a Drow Ranger Assassin riding around on a Gorgon that busts through the front door while the PCs are enjoying a night regaling wenches with tales of their adventures. The Gorgon lets out a paralyzing gas blast that the PCs probably will save against, but the barmaids, innkeeper, and so on aren't going to do as well. If the PCs have tons of healing, have a couple of those statutes get trampled by a charge attack by the Gorgon, making them "dead forever."

Trust me, your swordsage is going to take adventuring a lot more seriously after he tries to pick up the pieces of Zola the Barmaid, who he'd been flirting with for a couple of days, even if he dispatched the Drow & Gorgon in 3 rounds. :smallamused:

See, the problem is that in my setting, the PCs at level 4 are not yet at a point where they're above and beyond everyone else. Your average commoner is between level 2 and 4. Your common soldier will have at least 3 levels of fighter, and veterans can expect to reach level 7 or higher. Powerful figures in the world are level 10 or higher in their respective classes. The figures of legend, both living and otherwise, are/were level 18 or higher. I would place them as "sorta above average adventurers" on the power scale. The barmaid, maybe. The soldier on patrol? Anything that can crumple him in one strike is going to do the same to the PCs at this point.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-08, 12:56 AM
See, the problem is that in my setting, the PCs at level 4 are not yet at a point where they're above and beyond everyone else. Your average commoner is between level 2 and 4. Your common soldier will have at least 3 levels of fighter, and veterans can expect to reach level 7 or higher. Powerful figures in the world are level 10 or higher in their respective classes. The figures of legend, both living and otherwise, are/were level 18 or higher. I would place them as "sorta above average adventurers" on the power scale. The barmaid, maybe. The soldier on patrol? Anything that can crumple him in one strike is going to do the same to the PCs at this point.

:smallconfused: and these guys stomped on an Earth Elemental?

I think, maybe, your PCs are not on the same power scale as you're thinking for the world. The Swordsage, at the very least, is punching well above his weight if his AC is nigh-untouchable. Is this perhaps a question of character optimization?

I guess you'll just have to fight fire-with-fire. As has been said, you'll just need to pick monsters/spells that focus on the Swordsage's weak points or nullify his advantages. Mindblanks for Scry-and-Dies, and all that.

Another fun thought is the introduction of a villain who is able to humiliate the PCs and then walk away. Perhaps he uses political powers to deprive the PCs of something they worked hard for, or maybe he's just much more physically powerful than the PCs, but has only a passing interest in them - perhaps a swordmaster who, noting the Swordsage's abilities, decides to test himself against the Swordsage and then be disgusted with how easily he wins.

That's a good way to knock players down a peg while providing them a nice reoccurring villain. In my current campaign, a disarm-monkey half-fiend partially disarmed our party of our first batch of nice magic weapons (he needed them for a ritual) and escaped after a real slugfest. That was enough to cause my character to swear eternal vengeance on the punk. :smallamused:

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-08, 12:58 AM
Thanks for explaining. In regards to making it more dangerous, you could have the town guard hire the PCs to capture some sort of unknown random murderer (this would probably make it dark more then anything, but if the killer is able to get some quick attacks off at the PCs before escaping without any sort of trace, it could work well). If you tried this, a race with faster movement (eg: Catfolk) would work well with Rogue, or possibly Ninja, levels. Alternatively, a Psionic Rogue could be even better: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b .

Were the party able to get their weapons back, Oracle Hunter?

Yakk
2008-09-08, 01:06 AM
I was thinking "The monster roars, and punches the ground. The earth ... ripples. The Earth isn't supposed to do that." All opponents within 10' of the monster must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to stand against the shockwave. On failure, take 1d6 damage, be pushed back 5', and be knocked prone. All terrain within 10' of the elemental is now considered difficult terrain to everyone except an earth elemental.

And have it drop into the ground. For a turn, the earth heaves and bulges (DC 20 balance check, two targets up to 15' apart from each other). Then the Elemental bursts out of the ground (DC 13 Reflex, 2d6 damage, save for half, 20' radius, blunt damage from the debris) and attacks someone (as a charge).

Note -- area attacks generate LOTS of d20 rolls. More rolls, the less your 1 in 1000 chance of "10 misses with a 50-50 chance to hit" in a row event matters. With 2 attacks per round over 10 rounds, there is a ~1 in a million chance that you'll have all misses.

Shazzbaa
2008-09-08, 01:10 AM
If you can improv, I'd say that's the best suggestion I've seen -- make something up in-game if you can't fudge rolls. Suddenly, just when he seemed defeated, layers of earth peel from the ground and cover the earth elemental, making him larger and stronger than before! (or, you know, whatever you feel is appropriate) If the battle seemed like a total disappointment, make the players say, "I thought that battle seemed too easy!" as you pull a transformation or sudden surprise out of your back-pocket.

If you can't pull something out of thin air and you don't want to fudge, then the best thing you can do is take the rest of the advice and just roll with it. You wanted this to be a serious fight, but, let's face it, it wasn't a serious fight and that wasn't your fault. Just as often, the players want to be cool but the dice conspire against them -- if you run with the failure and play it up rather than stewing in frustration (both players and DMs) the encounter will be an exciting memory rather than an awkward or monotonous one, even if it's not the sort of exciting memory you wanted. You can make up for that later, which it sounds like you're already planning to do. :smallwink:

In defence of the "taking him down a peg" comment, however; what happens to the characters in-game is going to affect how they look at the world. If they're told that being raised from death is rare, but they can always manage to find resurrection when they need it, the players and sometimes even their characters will come to the conclusion that death is cheap, and understandably so. If players face a creature that nearly kills them, they're going to worry when they see it again, but if the players never face anything that threatens to hurt them, then they're going to feel more powerful than most things-- again, understandably so.
In this case it seems like it's less of a "Taking frustration with the player out on the character" thing and more like the OP would like to present the world in a more appropriate light -- the characters are low-level and they should feel as though they can die, not like they're unstoppable heroes. The only way to enforce that is to have the world show it.

TheOOB
2008-09-08, 01:24 AM
The trick is to just understand that with a random factor as large as D&D's, encounters are not going to go as planned. Some encounters that where supposed to be epic will flop, and some encounters that where supposed to be merely challenging will become deadly, the trick is to just roll with it.

As mentioned above, however, multiple opponents greatly serve to reduce the sheer randomness of things, a single opponent is often way too random. Bad rolls with make them suck, and good rolls will make them too deadly.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-08, 01:25 AM
In this case it seems like it's less of a "Taking frustration with the player out on the character" thing and more like the OP would like to present the world in a more appropriate light -- the characters are low-level and they should feel as though they can die, not like they're unstoppable heroes. The only way to enforce that is to have the world show it.

That's quite right, but I think the problem is that the characters are not designed to mirror the sort of world he'd like to run. If you have a 4th level character who can easily take down Earth Elementals (weird, extra-planar beings) then the world is very high powered if they are supposed to be "normal." In such a world, the heroes can't feel "low powered" - they can easily take down things which normally should seem weird and dangerous.

Danger comes from both sides, I guess. If you make a gritty world, but the characters are super-powered, then they'll see the world as super-heroes, not as gritty heroes. You have to either adjust the characters or the world - and if it's the world you're going to adjust, then this thread already has a bunch of good ways for doing it.

I still like my Drow Assassin riding a Gorgon though. :smalltongue:

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-08, 01:44 AM
I guess it would depend on how big the elemental in question was (some of the smaller ones wouldn't be that much of a problem). Looking of the Psionic Rogue list, if you tried my idea and they were a level 6 character, I'd recommend Bolt, Create Sound, Psionic Grease, Distract (or Conceal Thoughts) and Cloud Mind (or Psionic Knock) while keeping stealth and movement skills, as well as Search, Disable Device, Bluff and Disguise, maxed out.

Proven_Paradox
2008-09-08, 03:43 AM
:smallconfused: and these guys stomped on an Earth Elemental?

You'll note that a large earth elemental is only CR 5. As there are five characters of level 4, all of whom are reasonably optimized, it really shouldn't be that surprising, especially considering, y'know, the topic at hand.


I think, maybe, your PCs are not on the same power scale as you're thinking for the world. The Swordsage, at the very least, is punching well above his weight if his AC is nigh-untouchable. Is this perhaps a question of character optimization?

Swordsages--especially halfling ones, with size modifier and the dex increase--are GOING to have very high AC. They get light armor, wis to AC, and a lot of incentive to max out their dex.

Now that I think about it, an additional part of the problem here was that the party kind of threw me for a loop at loot distribution for the previous game. Among the loot was an amulet of natural armor and a ring of protection. I had thought at least one of those would go to the barbarian. Instead, the swordsage claimed both, and no one complained. He also got a +1 short sword. I had forgotten about it before, to be honest. The end result is that about 40% of the party's total wealth was focused on him.


Another fun thought is the introduction of a villain who is able to humiliate the PCs and then walk away. Perhaps he uses political powers to deprive the PCs of something they worked hard for, or maybe he's just much more physically powerful than the PCs, but has only a passing interest in them - perhaps a swordmaster who, noting the Swordsage's abilities, decides to test himself against the Swordsage and then be disgusted with how easily he wins.

I've been on the player end of such encounters before. That's a difficult thing to do without leaving an impression of "Here is my DMPC. Revel in his awesomeness." I don't want to be arbitrary about this, and that would take finesse that I'm not certain I possess to do properly.


That's a good way to knock players down a peg while providing them a nice reoccurring villain. In my current campaign, a disarm-monkey half-fiend partially disarmed our party of our first batch of nice magic weapons (he needed them for a ritual) and escaped after a real slugfest. That was enough to cause my character to swear eternal vengeance on the punk. :smallamused:

Mmm, this would be taken badly by the entire group I think. Plus, I have other things in mind for recurring villains.


Thanks for explaining. In regards to making it more dangerous, you could have the town guard hire the PCs to capture some sort of unknown random murderer (this would probably make it dark more then anything, but if the killer is able to get some quick attacks off at the PCs before escaping without any sort of trace, it could work well). If you tried this, a race with faster movement (eg: Catfolk) would work well with Rogue, or possibly Ninja, levels. Alternatively, a Psionic Rogue could be even better: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b.

A possibility for future games, but other goals have presented themselves that would take precedence over the town guards' requests most likely.


I was thinking "The monster roars, and punches the ground. The earth ... ripples. The Earth isn't supposed to do that." All opponents within 10' of the monster must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to stand against the shockwave. On failure, take 1d6 damage, be pushed back 5', and be knocked prone. All terrain within 10' of the elemental is now considered difficult terrain to everyone except an earth elemental.

And have it drop into the ground. For a turn, the earth heaves and bulges (DC 20 balance check, two targets up to 15' apart from each other). Then the Elemental bursts out of the ground (DC 13 Reflex, 2d6 damage, save for half, 20' radius, blunt damage from the debris) and attacks someone (as a charge).

Note -- area attacks generate LOTS of d20 rolls. More rolls, the less your 1 in 1000 chance of "10 misses with a 50-50 chance to hit" in a row event matters. With 2 attacks per round over 10 rounds, there is a ~1 in a million chance that you'll have all misses.

I hesitate to simply improv attacks like that. I've tacked such things onto a fight in the middle before, thinking they would put the difficulty up about where I wanted them, and ended up nearly wiping out the party. For example, I've yet to see how they will deal with a tripper or melee controller (something I plan to fix next game) and so seeing how they deal with being prone needs more planning than that.


If you can improv, I'd say that's the best suggestion I've seen -- make something up in-game if you can't fudge rolls. Suddenly, just when he seemed defeated, layers of earth peel from the ground and cover the earth elemental, making him larger and stronger than before! (or, you know, whatever you feel is appropriate) If the battle seemed like a total disappointment, make the players say, "I thought that battle seemed too easy!" as you pull a transformation or sudden surprise out of your back-pocket.

If this weren't already the second part of this fight, and if I'd had access to a Monster Manual at the time, I would have done just that. However, I work with printouts from the SRD or homebrewed monsters, and so just pulling something stronger out of nowhere would have been tricky.


If you can't pull something out of thin air and you don't want to fudge, then the best thing you can do is take the rest of the advice and just roll with it. You wanted this to be a serious fight, but, let's face it, it wasn't a serious fight and that wasn't your fault. Just as often, the players want to be cool but the dice conspire against them -- if you run with the failure and play it up rather than stewing in frustration (both players and DMs) the encounter will be an exciting memory rather than an awkward or monotonous one, even if it's not the sort of exciting memory you wanted. You can make up for that later, which it sounds like you're already planning to do. :smallwink:

I know how the dice conspiring against the player goes--I seem to roll poorly far more often than I roll well (or even average, though that may just be me being negative). Taking a more positive spin on things is difficult for me though; as I've said already, I don't have much of a poker face, and my frustration was rather obvious at the game (something the swordsage's player relished in more than was merited).


In defence of the "taking him down a peg" comment, however; what happens to the characters in-game is going to affect how they look at the world. If they're told that being raised from death is rare, but they can always manage to find resurrection when they need it, the players and sometimes even their characters will come to the conclusion that death is cheap, and understandably so. If players face a creature that nearly kills them, they're going to worry when they see it again, but if the players never face anything that threatens to hurt them, then they're going to feel more powerful than most things-- again, understandably so.
In this case it seems like it's less of a "Taking frustration with the player out on the character" thing and more like the OP would like to present the world in a more appropriate light -- the characters are low-level and they should feel as though they can die, not like they're unstoppable heroes. The only way to enforce that is to have the world show it.

This is exactly the situation, and you've worded it rather well. Thanks for clearing that up.


As mentioned above, however, multiple opponents greatly serve to reduce the sheer randomness of things, a single opponent is often way too random. Bad rolls with make them suck, and good rolls will make them too deadly.

I think I've already mentioned this, but I don't like throwing large groups of enemies at players because it bogs down combat. One round may take as long as an hour on bad days on a small encounter; I don't want to think of how long it would take if they were fighting, say, ten goblins. I can only expedite things so much.


That's quite right, but I think the problem is that the characters are not designed to mirror the sort of world he'd like to run. If you have a 4th level character who can easily take down Earth Elementals (weird, extra-planar beings) then the world is very high powered if they are supposed to be "normal." In such a world, the heroes can't feel "low powered" - they can easily take down things which normally should seem weird and dangerous.

I find it odd that you appear to be thinking of an earth elemental as a major indication of overpoweredness. It's of approximately the right CR for the group. Besides, this is a highly magical world, and elementals should not be that foreign to any adventurers in it.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-08, 03:44 AM
Never let a dice roll get in the way of a good story.

nagora
2008-09-08, 03:51 AM
Nothing went wrong except that you designed an encounter with an outcome in mind and it didn't work out. That's your problem; DMs who do that are often surprised and that's a good thing in the long run. Fudging to make a combat fit your ideas is a gateway to the RPG darkside: railroading.

Meanwhile, you've actually set the cocky player up for a real fall the day the dice come to life and he finds out how lucky he's been up to then.

Never let a predefined story get in the way of a dice roll.

Yakk
2008-09-08, 04:03 AM
I hesitate to simply improv attacks like that. I've tacked such things onto a fight in the middle before, thinking they would put the difficulty up about where I wanted them, and ended up nearly wiping out the party. For example, I've yet to see how they will deal with a tripper or melee controller (something I plan to fix next game) and so seeing how they deal with being prone needs more planning than that.
Oh no, I wasn't suggesting you improv new abilities onto a 3e monster in the middle of a fight. :-)

I was suggesting a way to deal with the "this fight consists of X players beating on 1 monster, where that 1 monster spends each turn attacking 1 player, with at most a 50% chance of even connecting each turn" before the fight.

An earth elemental that is a bag of AC, HP, and a single attack ... even if that attack does connect lots and does lots of damage, isn't an ideal "boss" fight.

(As an aside, notice that the players only go prone outside of the attack radius of the elemental (I was assuming a medium elemental -- for a large elemental, have a 10' knockback), and I was presuming full-round actions for that shock-wave ability. The point wasn't to make the monster deadly -- it was to make the monster have a memorable earth-elemental feel. Similarly, the burrowing power knocks players about in the round the elemental isn't attacking... the players will be standing by the time the elemental attacks, if they aren't fools.)

A fight in which the monster throws players around etc can be memorable even if the monster isn't missing on all of his slice attacks! :-) If you want a monster to be memorable, don't rely on it being a bad-ass, because the dice can and will betray you.

Shademan
2008-09-08, 05:14 AM
i say use the black knight. a guy in black armour who never says a single word but refuses anyone to pass his bridge unless they best him in combat. he might not even be alive.... (hint hint!!)
a little overpowering and he'll bring that swordsages feets back to the ground.
rememba' young grasshoppa'! there is always someone stronga' than yoo...

Saph
2008-09-08, 06:04 AM
I was suggesting a way to deal with the "this fight consists of X players beating on 1 monster, where that 1 monster spends each turn attacking 1 player, with at most a 50% chance of even connecting each turn" before the fight.

An earth elemental that is a bag of AC, HP, and a single attack ... even if that attack does connect lots and does lots of damage, isn't an ideal "boss" fight.

Come on, Yakk, you're missing the Earth Elemental's most fun ability. :) Earth Glide. Here's the link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm#earthElemental). Use that right, and a fight with an Earth Elemental can be a hell of a lot of fun.

One of my favourite 'one-off' scenarios to throw against players is an over-CRed Earth Elemental at the top of a stone tower guarding something the PCs need to retrieve. The PCs can grab the widget fairly easily if they're smart, but they then have to survive the chase down the tower, the PCs running around the spiral staircase while the Earth Elemental moves straight down through the rock walls to try and cut them off. Very cool as long as you judge the CR just right.

Proven_Paradox: I've had this happen before plenty of times as a DM. I find the best approach is just to be honest about it. Just tell them OOC: "I can't believe how lucky you guys were in that fight. I never rolled above an 8 all the way through. Yeah, yeah, I know he seemed easy, don't get cocky."

It has the advantage of being true, and players generally like that you're being open with them. And when, a couple of sessions later, they complain about the monster that's scoring a critical hit every other round, you can point them back to this fight as a reminder. :)

- Saph

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-08, 07:11 AM
If you need good rolls to make a fight climactic or dramatic, you haven't designed a very good fight, frankly. You can not literally rely on chance to do that for you.

Which is exactly what you're doing when you're expecting a scythe to make the encounter dangerous. Each 20 is a 50% chance to critical the swordsage - since you need to hit on the confirmation roll - so each attack is a 2.5% chance to crit the swordsage. If the fight goes on for 20 rounds and the elemental attacks 20 times, that's a 60% chance it never crits the swordsage. In 10 rounds and 10 attacks, it's a 78% chance to not crit even once. (This is why it's important for D&D DMs to understand odds and numbers, at least a little.)

Design a better encounter next time. PCs will routinely demolish, for a variety of reasons, encounters you meant to be tough and challenging. What you do is, you learn and do better. (And if the thing couldn't hit the swordsage on a 7, it wasn't all that dangerous, was it? He was right - his high AC had a good 50% chance of protecting him.) Don't rely on chance. Use a powerful opponent (remember, if the party is fighting a single powerful opponent, it should have a CR of X+4, where X is the average party level), interesting terrain, external pressures ("That magic doowickey is going to blow in 6 rounds!"), and so on.

Do not ever fudge dice rolls in order to hurt the PCs. That's just cheap. You're the DM, you can inflict damage on them at any time anyway - what's the point of arbitrarily doing it?


Edit: Funnily enough, 4E fixes many problems inherent in this scenario, like the one Yakk points out: in 3.5, single monsters make crap encounters. I've had a sixth-level party of four demolish a bulette in a single round. But in 4E, solo monsters are specifically designed to be capable of withstanding concentrated attack and of hurting most of the party on each action. Similarly, 4E really encourages good encounter design, not just plopping monsters in an area - the encounter, independent of the specific monsters, should be interesting or dramatic or challenging.

Edit2: For pity's sake don't start trying to "teach a lesson" to the swordsage. You're the DM, you're supposed to be above that. It's a great way to lose the trust and respect of your players, which are the most integral parts of your ability to be a DM. Be an adult and realize you're all there to have fun. Don't punish someone for building a good character. (Feel free to punish yourself if the high AC is the result of, say, ridiculously high point-buy or too many AC-improving magic items too early on. If it's the result of mage armor and shield piled on the character, kudos to your players for tactics.)

Baxbart
2008-09-08, 07:29 AM
My problem seems to be exactly the opposite - When I'm a player my rolls are regularly appalling beyond belief, but when I'm behind the screen I have to fudge my rolls down because I get so many crits/high rolls.

Saph
2008-09-08, 07:48 AM
Edit: Funnily enough, 4E fixes many problems inherent in this scenario, like the one Yakk points out: in 3.5, single monsters make crap encounters. I've had a sixth-level party of four demolish a bulette in a single round. But in 4E, solo monsters are specifically designed to be capable of withstanding concentrated attack and of hurting most of the party on each action.

I've found the opposite, actually. Single enemies in 3.5 often work very well, while 4e Solos tend to be slugfests, pushovers, or both.

- Saph

Curmudgeon
2008-09-08, 08:35 AM
Play fair. If you don't let the players fudge the results of their dice rolls, neither should you. However, it's a good idea to have backup plans, such as enemy reinforcements that arrive just as the big battle turns out to be a party cakewalk.

Jayabalard
2008-09-08, 08:51 AM
So, what do you, as a DM, do when you're rolling poorly on a fight? So poorly that a fight that should be climactic and dangerous ends up just looking silly?Make sure that as you describe the battle (and you are describing it beony "You hit" and "he misses" right?) that you emphasize the role of luck for bad rolls.

An alternative solution if you regularily roll extremes and don't like it: Switch to rolling 3d6 instead. That will make more of your rolls tend toward the middle.

DeathQuaker
2008-09-08, 08:57 AM
Oooh, I hear ya, Proven_Paradox. I've had similar problems sometimes. It happens. Not unusual.

It's important to remember though, that as a GM, you're there to provide the PCs a challenge, but not actually "beat" them--and certainly not "teach them a lesson." :smallsmile:

The real frustration should be just really hoping you'd give them a cool challenge and that it's fallen apart. When this has happened to me, I have, in the past, not often fudged rolls, but I have boosted the monster's hit points if the PCs are getting through it very quickly--just to give a little more challenge.

But after a few combats like that, I've realized it doesn't matter so much... let them have their easy victory--it may not be so easy next time. And sometimes, the players wondering why that was too easy can be turned against them later... :smallbiggrin: (What was that someone said about the DM's evil grin).

When designing encounters for 3.x.... stuff I've learned through lots of trial and even more error include....

Use terrain--add some rubble that slows movement, pools of acid to avoid, columns/trees to hide behind, etc. It can work both for and against PCs and NPCs alike, but it makes things more interesting that even if the monster ends up being a little bit of a pushover, it was a little more interesting and exciting for all involved.

When using single monster encounters, you want monsters that aren't one-trick ponies (like with earth elementals, it's tempting to just have them smash everything). Creatures with DR, creatures with spell like abilities----creatures that can easily change tactics or flee if something isn't working for them. Best single monster encounters I had was one with a Bone Devil (very tough, very challenging) and a Kolyarut. Dragons of course are also fun.

Use more multiple monster encounters--the main thing single monsters have going against them is that they're getting beat up on by multiple targets--and if they can be flanked, all the worse for them. Multiple monsters can also use group tactics against the party.

Remember your monsters' special abilities! I only say this because I know I forget. :smallsmile: I'll write up stat blocks with certain abilities bolded so I remember to actually use them. When I forget that the monster has improved grab and I could've had a pc prone three times already, I tend to be annoyed.

It's okay to alter monsters a little according to the rules. Add a hit die, swap a feat (Succubi with Improved Grapple are fun....). This shakes things up for both you and the players, who may be expecting one thing and getting another.

Raum
2008-09-08, 09:07 AM
Anyway, as for flubbing, I'll admit that I do it. However, I'm philosophically opposed to ever flubbing in such a way that it harms the player. When I flub, it's usually to keep a character from being killed simply because of the dice. Critical hits, for example, sometimes do just enough damage to put them from full down to -8 HP. More an issue at low levels--I don't flub beyond level 5. At that point there is something that could have been done to keep the character alive.Not 'flubbing' is generally a better method of keeping risk in the game. Past flubbing to make it easier on the swordsage or other characters may be part of why they're so fearless now.


In addition to taking this player down a peg, I had hoped to drive the point home to the player AND the character--who is getting arrogant in character, perfectly naturally--that this world is dangerous and he needs to be cautious. Like I said, I obviously had taken the wrong approach to this, and the next fight will be far more dangerous for him. If he's still alive after the next one, and if the point isn't driven home yet, I will take the player aside and discuss some things with him then. Still, the encounter brought the topic to my mind.Don't "take the player down a peg" in game. Thats simply adversarial DMing. Besides, you can throw anything you want at them after therm...it's not exactly a challenge or fun. It's not you against the players even though it may seem that way when the players are cheering themselves on. Address issues with players to the player, preferably one on one.


Raum: Part of my problem with that situation is that I have a terrible poker face. I'm not difficult to read. The swordsage and sorceress players both know when I'm BSing them.Think of future plans when you want to hide what you're thinking about the current situation. Also, you don't know necessarily need a poker face...in many ways you're better off projecting a chosen emotion than in hiding all emotion.

Consider when they're beating your elemental to pieces but don't know about the dozen cultists who summoned it rushing to attack them from behind. Appearing upset they're wiping the floor with your elemental is good then...they won't expect the reinforcements.

DeathQuaker
2008-09-08, 09:10 AM
Don't "take the player down a peg" in game. Thats simply adversarial DMing. Besides, you can throw anything you want at them after therm...it's not exactly a challenge or fun. It's not you against the players even though it may seem that way when the players are cheering themselves on.

Yes. Yes, yes, yes. And if a player's 'tude is getting to you, you need to chat with him OUT OF GAME. Don't do it by punishing his character; it's passive aggressive and mean and rather silly besides. And players will suss that you're doing it and then not want you to be GM anymore.

only1doug
2008-09-08, 10:17 AM
Yes. Yes, yes, yes. And if a player's 'tude is getting to you, you need to chat with him OUT OF GAME. Don't do it by punishing his character; it's passive aggressive and mean and rather silly besides. And players will suss that you're doing it and then not want you to be GM anymore.

I cry BS: the OP has clearly stated that the motive was to use a CR appropriate encounter to emphasise that the setting does still hold dangers for the party, specifically including the swordsage who has a awesome AC for his level. If the OP had tried to use overwhelming force to wipe the group and was whinging about his failure then your statement would be valid but any GM is entitled to use CR appropriate force of any kind.

for future planning if the BBEG becomes aware of their approach and has a chance to learn their tactics, strengths and weaknessess then that BBEG would recruit for an appropriate counterforce to negate the party. (which is why you never let the villain get away and try to take them out as soon as you can after you have become a credible threat to them).

DeathQuaker
2008-09-08, 10:40 AM
I cry BS: the OP has clearly stated that the motive was to use a CR appropriate encounter to emphasise that the setting does still hold dangers for the party, specifically including the swordsage who has a awesome AC for his level. If the OP had tried to use overwhelming force to wipe the group and was whinging about his failure then your statement would be valid but any GM is entitled to use CR appropriate force of any kind.


1. I was merely agreeing with someone else about something that was extrapolated from the original discussion. Nothing wrong with that, and nothing worth picking a fight over.

2. I think the point of my post and those I was agreeing with was just to caution the GM NOT to design his encounters just to irk a player. He's straddling a fine line here. We all understand that in part, he wants to provide a challenge to a party which includes a high AC character. That in itself is GOOD, but has to be handled carefully. We are just hoping that any potential PC-hunting desires get nipped in the bud (because it's probably something that we've all wanted to do at times, and know it's a bad idea). I think the reason why some of us are saying, "Um, are you trying to challenge the players or punish the player?" because the GM is complaining of the player being "cocky" and wanting to take him down a peg.

It's therefore possible the player is actually exacerbating a game problem, which is something the GM needs to handle OUTSIDE gameplay, or things can and will get ugly.

We could be wrong, but it's just worth noting when not all details are out there.

We're all trying to help out here. No accusations, no wrongdoing, no "BS" intended. Please to not get so feisty over a simple note of agreement. Thanks. :smallsmile:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-08, 10:52 AM
I cry BS: the OP has clearly stated that the motive was to use a CR appropriate encounter to emphasise that the setting does still hold dangers for the party, specifically including the swordsage who has a awesome AC for his level.

This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of 3.5 encounter structure, though. A CR-appropriate single monster encounter will not be any kind of a challenge. The monster will get wiped out because it will have fewer tactical options and it will be subject to concentrated PC attacks. A single monster with a CR four higher than the average party level is a perfectly valid encounter - in fact, you're supposed to include encounters like that in adventures - and could actually be dangerous.

only1doug
2008-09-08, 10:57 AM
2. I think the point of my post and those I was agreeing with was just to caution the GM NOT to design his encounters just to irk a player. He's straddling a fine line here. We all understand that in part, he wants to provide a challenge to a party which includes a high AC character. That in itself is GOOD, but has to be handled carefully. We are just hoping that any potential PC-hunting desires get nipped in the bud (because it's probably something that we've all wanted to do at times, and know it's a bad idea). I think the reason why some of us are saying, "Um, are you trying to challenge the players or punish the player?" because the GM is complaining of the player being "cocky" and wanting to take him down a peg.

Your earlier post was a well thought out response that covered most of this


1. I was merely agreeing with someone else about something that was extrapolated from the original discussion. Nothing wrong with that, and nothing worth picking a fight over.
your second post started sounding like Bad GM: No Cookie (and GM's need cookies darnit).


It's therefore possible the player is actually exacerbating a game problem, which is something the GM needs to handle OUTSIDE gameplay, or things can and will get ugly.

We could be wrong, but it's just worth noting when not all details are out there.
possible but you had already mentioned it 13 minutes earlier in your own post, by re-inforcing this with a second post so soon afterwards that contained nothing but agreement on that one subject.... leads to the conclusion that you were certain about the existance of error


We're all trying to help out here. No accusations, no wrongdoing, no "BS" intended. Please to not get so feisty over a simple note of agreement. Thanks. :smallsmile:

heh, me calling BS isn't feisty, you would't like me when i'm feisty! You don't like me anyway? ...oh, "Snifff"

Sidetrack:
I call for an international "Cookies for GM's" day, which should fall on any day i am GMing the first gaming session in November

arguskos
2008-09-08, 11:02 AM
Sidetrack:
I call for an international "Cookies for GM's" day, which should fall on any day i am GMing the first gaming session in November
I second this! Let us have the "Cookies for GM's Day", in honor of all those GM's that have given us all so much fun.

-argus

Narmoth
2008-09-08, 12:29 PM
Easy solution for the problem: reinforcements. Why not let a 2nd elemental arrive to help the first?

nagora
2008-09-08, 12:33 PM
heh, me calling BS isn't feisty, you would't like me when i'm feisty!

Sorry, had to post this definition of "Feisty" from 1913's Times' Bestseller "Our southern highlands" by Horace Kephart:


Feisty means when a feller's allers wigglin' about, wantin' ever'body to see him, like a kid when the preacher comes

Jayabalard
2008-09-08, 12:35 PM
I cry BS: So, you're advocating dealing with a player's attitude problem using in game methods by punishing his character?

Proven_Paradox
2008-09-08, 12:42 PM
Nothing went wrong except that you designed an encounter with an outcome in mind and it didn't work out. That's your problem; DMs who do that are often surprised and that's a good thing in the long run.I'm not supposed to design an encounter with an outcome of it being challenging? Because really, that's the only outcome I had in mind here. If the barbarian had gotten in there first, it would have been a very different situation. I think you're seriously misinterpreting me here.


<Stuff>All good advise, and I'll keep that in mind for future encounters.


Come on, Yakk, you're missing the Earth Elemental's most fun ability. :) Earth Glide. Here's the link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm#earthElemental). Use that right, and a fight with an Earth Elemental can be a hell of a lot of fun.Oh, in future encounters with these things (and there will be several) I intend to milk Earth Glide for everything it's worth. However, this fight took place inside, on a wooden floor. As I interpreted the ability, that cut Earth Glide out of the equation.


Proven_Paradox: I've had this happen before plenty of times as a DM. I find the best approach is just to be honest about it. Just tell them OOC: "I can't believe how lucky you guys were in that fight. I never rolled above an 8 all the way through. Yeah, yeah, I know he seemed easy, don't get cocky."

It has the advantage of being true, and players generally like that you're being open with them. And when, a couple of sessions later, they complain about the monster that's scoring a critical hit every other round, you can point them back to this fight as a reminder. :)

- SaphMmm, that's basically how it went (with more obvious frustration that I should have shown, probably).


If you need good rolls to make a fight climactic or dramatic, you haven't designed a very good fight, frankly. You can not literally rely on chance to do that for you.I don't think it unreasonable to design a fight with the idea that I should roll fairly evenly. If I were to design a fight where bad rolls wouldn't result in lameness, there's a very good chance that said fight with good rolls will result in a TPK.


Which is exactly what you're doing when you're expecting a scythe to make the encounter dangerous.The scythes were there for the image. The last thing I had in mind was the scythes making things dangerous.


Edit2: For pity's sake don't start trying to "teach a lesson" to the swordsage. You're the DM, you're supposed to be above that. It's a great way to lose the trust and respect of your players, which are the most integral parts of your ability to be a DM. Be an adult and realize you're all there to have fun. Don't punish someone for building a good character. (Feel free to punish yourself if the high AC is the result of, say, ridiculously high point-buy or too many AC-improving magic items too early on. If it's the result of mage armor and shield piled on the character, kudos to your players for tactics.)This isn't what I'm trying to do at all. I think you're focusing far too much on the "take him down a peg" comment, which at this point I regret even saying.


It's important to remember though, that as a GM, you're there to provide the PCs a challenge, but not actually "beat" them--and certainly not "teach them a lesson." :smallsmile: I'm well aware of this, and I find it odd how often people are bringing this up in the thread.


The real frustration should be just really hoping you'd give them a cool challenge and that it's fallen apart. When this has happened to me, I have, in the past, not often fudged rolls, but I have boosted the monster's hit points if the PCs are getting through it very quickly--just to give a little more challenge.Essentially that is the frustration here.


Use terrain--add some rubble that slows movement, pools of acid to avoid, columns/trees to hide behind, etc. It can work both for and against PCs and NPCs alike, but it makes things more interesting that even if the monster ends up being a little bit of a pushover, it was a little more interesting and exciting for all involved.All ideas that I use regularly in dungeons and wilderness, but those aren't terribly applicable in an indoor city encounter. Tables and chairs are the best I can come up with, and pretty much everyone in the party has a perfectly valid excuse to just ignore them ("BARBARIAN SMASH PUNY TABLE!" "I just jump over it or duck under it.")


When using single monster encounters, you want monsters that aren't one-trick ponies (like with earth elementals, it's tempting to just have them smash everything). Creatures with DR, creatures with spell like abilities----creatures that can easily change tactics or flee if something isn't working for them. Best single monster encounters I had was one with a Bone Devil (very tough, very challenging) and a Kolyarut. Dragons of course are also fun.This one had DR, but in hindsight, yeah, I should have had some other tricks available, as Yakk has already pointed out.


Use more multiple monster encounters--the main thing single monsters have going against them is that they're getting beat up on by multiple targets--and if they can be flanked, all the worse for them. Multiple monsters can also use group tactics against the party.I'm pretty sure I've already mentioned at least once that the big one had medium elemental mooks to help with flanking and such.


It's okay to alter monsters a little according to the rules. Add a hit die, swap a feat (Succubi with Improved Grapple are fun....). This shakes things up for both you and the players, who may be expecting one thing and getting another.I'm quite certain that I already mentioned that these elementals were altered to be fast rather than strong, and had completely different feats and ability scores from the standard earth elementals. I suppose by calling them earth elementals this entire time, I've been misleading--I've named the monsters "Sandshades," and while they're quite similar to earth elementals in many ways, they're different in a lot of ways too.


Not 'flubbing' is generally a better method of keeping risk in the game. Past flubbing to make it easier on the swordsage or other characters may be part of why they're so fearless now.No flubbing has occurred in this particular game at all.


Don't "take the player down a peg" in game. Thats simply adversarial DMing. Besides, you can throw anything you want at them after therm...it's not exactly a challenge or fun. It's not you against the players even though it may seem that way when the players are cheering themselves on. Address issues with players to the player, preferably one on one.Gaah, that off the cuff comment is going to corrupt this entire thread. *Sigh* Anyway, I'm trying to reinforce an in-character point here, and to do that I need to use in-character means.


Think of future plans when you want to hide what you're thinking about the current situation. Also, you don't know necessarily need a poker face...in many ways you're better off projecting a chosen emotion than in hiding all emotion.Again, the players know me too well. They read me me far too well. They'd pick up on this.


Consider when they're beating your elemental to pieces but don't know about the dozen cultists who summoned it rushing to attack them from behind. Appearing upset they're wiping the floor with your elemental is good then...they won't expect the reinforcements.Then I get to run a large encounter with some type of caster that I'm pulling out of nowhere... There's only so much improvisation one can reasonably expect to do. I had two arcane caster sheets in my folder, but one was level 2 and the other level 16. Either way, that would have not gone well.


This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of 3.5 encounter structure, though. A CR-appropriate single monster encounter will not be any kind of a challenge. The monster will get wiped out because it will have fewer tactical options and it will be subject to concentrated PC attacks. A single monster with a CR four higher than the average party level is a perfectly valid encounter - in fact, you're supposed to include encounters like that in adventures - and could actually be dangerous.I am not certain how this is relivant to the current discussion. I have stated that there were mooks. These mooks focused on the barbarian primarily, and played their roles well.

nagora
2008-09-08, 12:49 PM
I'm not supposed to design an encounter with an outcome of it being challenging? Because really, that's the only outcome I had in mind here. If the barbarian had gotten in there first, it would have been a very different situation. I think you're seriously misinterpreting me here.
No, I'm just saying not to be tempted to fudge dice; just relax and wait for the bad (or just average) luck to hit your player, who is now probably well on his way to being over-confident.

The fact that the combat result is bothering you is "your problem" for the simple reason that you didn't do anything wrong; if the dice roll that badly that often then, yeah, the monster should lose.

only1doug
2008-09-08, 01:28 PM
So, you're advocating dealing with a player's attitude problem using in game methods by punishing his character?

No, I advocate reading entire of the OP's post, where-in he states that he wanted to teach the character that it wasn't un-hittable. Please don't pursue this any further, the OP has made it very clear that he wasn't attempting to punish player attitude in his latest post:


This isn't what I'm trying to do at all. I think you're focusing far too much on the "take him down a peg" comment, which at this point I regret even saying.

I am aware that this was posted after your comment Jay, although it was possible to interpret from his earlier posts.


Interestingly PP i had a similar situation in my DnD game on sunday, my new Gish couldn't hit the mob at all, i kept rolling 10 or less when i needed 12's

DeathQuaker
2008-09-08, 01:38 PM
I'm well aware of this, and I find it odd how often people are bringing this up in the thread.

Prolly 'cause it's something a lot of people are paranoid about, because they've seen it happen and do bad things. I don't think anyone's thinking poorly of you.



All ideas that I use regularly in dungeons and wilderness, but those aren't terribly applicable in an indoor city encounter. Tables and chairs are the best I can come up with, and pretty much everyone in the party has a perfectly valid excuse to just ignore them ("BARBARIAN SMASH PUNY TABLE!" "I just jump over it or duck under it.")

City terrain ideas: Thick columns for support can provide cover. Have someone knock something over/break glass for an improvised caltrop effect. Puddles of questionable goo.

Also, just the narrowness and fragileness of city terrain can be used for some interesting effects.


I'm pretty sure I've already mentioned at least once that the big one had medium elemental mooks to help with flanking and such.

I'm sorry, I honestly missed that. Was just trying to offer general advice anyway.

And as my trying to offer advice and be helpful is obviously failing according to a couple people on this thread I won't do it again. I'm clearly incompetent, and I'm sorry for ruining your thread. :smallfrown:

only1doug
2008-09-08, 01:50 PM
And as my trying to offer advice and be helpful is obviously failing according to a couple people on this thread I won't do it again. I'm clearly incompetent, and I'm sorry for ruining your thread. :smallfrown:

I am going to have to disagree with you again DQ, you have probably added more to this thread than i have, you certainly aren't incompetent nor ruining the thread. i just disagree with the context in which i read your earlier post where i felt that your post was bashing the OP for something i felt he was innocent of.

Please don't stop posting because of me.

arguskos
2008-09-08, 01:52 PM
And as my trying to offer advice and be helpful is obviously failing according to a couple people on this thread I won't do it again. I'm clearly incompetent, and I'm sorry for ruining your thread.
Man, you're not doing anything wrong. People are jumping down his throat about a comment he made in frustration (as we all often do), and the poor guy is getting vaguely defensive. It happens, and I'm fairly certain he doesn't want to run off someone who's giving fair advice.

To the OP, about said frustrated comment (involving pegs, players, and taking the latter down a former), I say you should perhaps accept that you wanted to do that. Hell, I do. Frequently. My players piss me off, a lot. However, the thing about being the DM is that we have to take a deep breath, remember that the impulse to lash out is fine, so long as we don't act on it, and channel that energy into more constructive outlets.

My advice is that you accept the player is a ****head, and move on. Throw a series of difficult encounters at them. Take off the kid gloves, and get damn rough. Don't be cruel, make the encounters hard, but defeatable, but make things CRYSTAL CLEAR: this world is scary. It is NOT your friend. It can, and will, kill you dead if you are stupid or you don't realize your limitations. I run all my games this way, and I warn my players that the world is scary and dangerous and not your friend. And they eat this **** up. Why? I have no idea. *shrug* But they enjoy the danger, the thrill of knowing life is on the edge, all the time. I get to let my frustrations out when I get a vicious critical on one of them, and they get their victory by the sweat of their brows. Every fight is well earned, and feels like a real, hard-fought battle.

I know I'll probably be told that I am a Bad DM (tm) for being tough like this, but oh well. It's a good, fair, fun way of channeling those angry impulses everyone has into a constructive, enjoyable setting, without being mean to anyone. My players know the dice fall as they fall, and that the world is scary like that.

tl;dr: Be tough with your encounters, but not cruel. Accept your impulses, but act on them in ways that channel them healthily. It's more fun that way.

-argus

Shazzbaa
2008-09-08, 02:03 PM
So far, we've learned that you don't like to fudge rolls (a viable argument), you were, in this situation at least, not comfortable with improvising an improvement to the monster (understandable). A single monster is going to rise or fall through luck, especially one dependent on criticals... but you have several reasons why you don't want to use a large group of monsters instead of one big one (EDIT: with a few mooks, I did miss that). Most of the rest of the advice that's been given seems, from your replies, to be tricks you ordinarily use but couldn't for THIS ONE FIGHT for various reasons.

So, that leaves two things that can really be done: First, learn from the encounter and design something less chancy as your next big fight. You seem to be doing this already.
The second thing, and the ONLY thing you can do at the table, is to go ahead and have fun with the fight anyway.


I know how the dice conspiring against the player goes--I seem to roll poorly far more often than I roll well (or even average, though that may just be me being negative). Taking a more positive spin on things is difficult for me though; as I've said already, I don't have much of a poker face, and my frustration was rather obvious at the game (something the swordsage's player relished in more than was merited).

Tangent -- I hear ya on the dice. I've just stopped playing characters who are supposed to be awesome, because I'm well aware that the dice will never let that happen. :smalltongue: You see, my bad luck is so infamous that it is actually taken into account as a legitimate balancing factor in one of my GM's homebrew games. ^^; Even the most anti-superstition players in both of my gaming groups have provided me with different dice and offered to roll for me in some situations, because it's simply accepted fact that I'll roll badly. XD It should say something that may very first roleplaying character was known as nothing more than a bumbling failure, "the little ninja who couldn't." My second character was most widely known for his frequent death.

On-Topic -- I'm not saying you have to be able to pull one over on your players, I'm saying that in situations like this, if you can't alter the situation at a moment's notice, the only thing you can do to help the situation is to be able to laugh at yourself and be a good sport about it and let the players enjoy wiping the floor with the monster. I know that you're not necessarily thinking "Arrgh, I wanted to beat him and he's winning!" so much as you're thinking "Arrgh, I wanted this fight to be scary and it's not working!" but all the same, it will be more pleasant for you, as well as your players, if you can be a good sport even when it's not going well. That's not a poker face; that's swallowing your pride and frustration and enjoying the game even when it does not go the way you'd hoped. Difficult yes, but this is a good life skill, not just a good DMing skill, so I'd still advise trying your best to cultivate it.

Chronic ill-luck as a player has taught me that if you can learn to laugh and roll with it, even a session with no rolls above 10 can be fun. :3 If your players remember the session later, laugh, and reminisce about "I cannot BELIEVE that one earth elemental NEVER HIT YOU!"... then your session is still a success.

Raum
2008-09-08, 02:10 PM
No flubbing has occurred in this particular game at all.Looking beyond this game, how often have characters died? Are they generally immortal or should they be scared? Not really looking for an answer, just something to consider.


Gaah, that off the cuff comment is going to corrupt this entire thread. *Sigh* Anyway, I'm trying to reinforce an in-character point here, and to do that I need to use in-character means.Yep, I'd suggest your earlier plan in that case...target a weakness rather than a strength. Fort saves, possibly AoEs, use numbers if you want to attack a high AC (even if only a 20 hits, 20 mooks shooting means one hit per round), use terrain to complicate the situation and force the PCs to think tactically, etc. Terrain is a big (and often underutilized) potential 'antagonist'. Even rats become dangerous when you're trying to cross a sewer by walking on pipes 10' above the sewage. It's not the rats being dangerous in and of themselves, but reacting to them may cause you to fall...

When you want a battle they'll remember spend as much time on the setting as you do on the enemy. :smallsmile:


Again, the players know me too well. They read me me far too well. They'd pick up on this.Hmm, it's a process. You may not project what you want all the time but keep practicing. Remind yourself to think of a situation which evokes the emotion you want to project even when that situation differs from current play.


Then I get to run a large encounter with some type of caster that I'm pulling out of nowhere... There's only so much improvisation one can reasonably expect to do. I had two arcane caster sheets in my folder, but one was level 2 and the other level 16. Either way, that would have not gone well.Sorry, I wasn't clear. Meant you'd want to appear concerned over the ease of the battle if you had planned backup to come in late. If you didn't appear concerned they might think something was up.

Jayabalard
2008-09-08, 02:33 PM
No, I advocate reading entire of the OP's post, where-in he states that he wanted to teach the character that it wasn't un-hittable. You called BS on someone who was not responding to the OP; it was a side discussion on a specific wording by the OP, so what the OP said or didn't say in the rest of the post is not really relevant.

Proven_Paradox
2008-09-09, 02:43 AM
Tangent -- I hear ya on the dice. I've just stopped playing characters who are supposed to be awesome, because I'm well aware that the dice will never let that happen. :smalltongue: You see, my bad luck is so infamous that it is actually taken into account as a legitimate balancing factor in one of my GM's homebrew games. ^^; Even the most anti-superstition players in both of my gaming groups have provided me with different dice and offered to roll for me in some situations, because it's simply accepted fact that I'll roll badly. XD It should say something that may very first roleplaying character was known as nothing more than a bumbling failure, "the little ninja who couldn't." My second character was most widely known for his frequent death.I have a few characters who've died due to poor rolls in the past--I know I've told my story involving the pyromaniac mage that ends with a diplomacy roll of 2, a concentration roll of 3 when a 5 was all that was needed, and a TPK on these boards--but when I play, I usually either play casters--where I'm not the one rolling the dice, and my poor luck cannot cause me to outright phale--or I optimize my characters to a point where even with horrible dice, I can contribute. I am known for poor dice rolling (and card drawing) luck in groups I play in though.


On-Topic -- I'm not saying you have to be able to pull one over on your players, I'm saying that in situations like this, if you can't alter the situation at a moment's notice, the only thing you can do to help the situation is to be able to laugh at yourself and be a good sport about it and let the players enjoy wiping the floor with the monster. I know that you're not necessarily thinking "Arrgh, I wanted to beat him and he's winning!" so much as you're thinking "Arrgh, I wanted this fight to be scary and it's not working!" but all the same, it will be more pleasant for you, as well as your players, if you can be a good sport even when it's not going well. That's not a poker face; that's swallowing your pride and frustration and enjoying the game even when it does not go the way you'd hoped. Difficult yes, but this is a good life skill, not just a good DMing skill, so I'd still advise trying your best to cultivate it.

Chronic ill-luck as a player has taught me that if you can learn to laugh and roll with it, even a session with no rolls above 10 can be fun. :3 If your players remember the session later, laugh, and reminisce about "I cannot BELIEVE that one earth elemental NEVER HIT YOU!"... then your session is still a success.That's simply a skill I have yet to develop. I can laugh at myself if the failure was something that was my fault, but when it's out of my hands I tend to get bitter. (For example, I reacted poorly after the concentration roll of 3 I mentioned before) At the time, I placed the blame on the dice. In hindsight, of course, it's rather blatant that it wasn't completely on the dice.


Looking beyond this game, how often have characters died? Are they generally immortal or should they be scared? Not really looking for an answer, just something to consider.Well, these guys have never played with me before, but it's not really relevant, but...

Rolley the rogue--curb stomped by an orc monk after getting too far into a melee without a way out.
Barbarian gnome whose name I forget--arrested for assaulting another PC out of sheer malice (perfectly in character, with no OOC hard feelings). In the process of resisting arrest, killed. Natural selection against chaotic stupid.
Mizu the sorcerer--failed that fort save against that lich's disintegrate.
Elet the crusader--overwhelmed while the casters were low on spells and the other melee character was occupied elsewhere.
One TPK--the players insisted that the party was quite powerful without casters, and that casters really weren't that great. They challenged me to prove them wrong. I made a level equivalent druid and a controller sorcerer. (Again, no OOC hard feelings were had afterwards; they got the point and one of them rolled a wizard.)

There've been a lot of close calls--for example, just with this group, in the previous game, the swordsage took enough con damage to put him down to a max HP of 6, and the barbarian dropped into negatives after his rage ended, with a bunch of zombies still standing. He also later failed a will save against Hold Person, but the swordsage got the caster's attention before the fatal CDG.

I think it's fair to say that my games are typically fairly dangerous.


Hmm, it's a process. You may not project what you want all the time but keep practicing. Remind yourself to think of a situation which evokes the emotion you want to project even when that situation differs from current play.So THAT'S how people put ranks into bluff. Damn my charisma penalty! *Shakes fist*

Kami2awa
2008-09-09, 06:05 AM
I ALWAYS roll badly, especially on Initiative. As GM I was famous for the inept guards who would rush in and be instantly slaughtered simply because the dice went against them, sometimes by their own critical failures resulting in dropping weapons on their foot or hitting their own allies.

To modify a Pratchett quote, this thread is dedicated to those fine men.

Hal
2008-09-09, 06:13 AM
Y'know, the OP's story has actually given me an idea for something. I wonder what people think of the idea (hopefully not threadjacking here).

The players want to get into a fortress where a wizard has set up a defensive grid. The system consists of earth elementals (or any other elemental, or golems, take your pick) all magically linked together. When ever any one of them experiences something, the others are all aware of it, so that encountering one tends to bring in dozens more from nearby areas. As a consequence of this, however, they all share one pool of HP.

It's rather devious; you run the risk of being swarmed to death if you go about it wrong, but the entire thing falls apart if you do enough damage to even one of the things. It seems like a way to make a series of challenging encounters without having to screw with a monster's stats too much or fudging rolls.

Sound interesting? Or just dumb?

only1doug
2008-09-09, 07:14 AM
Oww, thats.... Owww.

i can see two senario's dependant on party makeup.

Blaster group: AOE, AOE, AOE, "oh, they all melted, even the ones i didn't hit"
(AOE = Area of Effect, eg. fireball)

non Blaster group: lots of attackers and unable to whittle down enemy numbers (all or nothing)... well its not a good prognosis.

probably any group could cope if they were aware of the special qualities but it could be very nasty for a group who aren't expecting it.

Query: what would be the effect of a disintegrate if the elemental targetted failed its save? all elementals destroyed or just the target? if just target how would you reduce the HPs of the remainder?

Hal
2008-09-09, 11:33 AM
probably any group could cope if they were aware of the special qualities but it could be very nasty for a group who aren't expecting it.

Query: what would be the effect of a disintegrate if the elemental targetted failed its save? all elementals destroyed or just the target? if just target how would you reduce the HPs of the remainder?

Oh, I would definitely give the players a chance to find out about it. It seems like the kind of thing where you would want to have a strategy ready to go to deal with whatever happens. Of course, if the players aren't interested in investigative options and decide to just charge right in, well, there's always some fun to be had there, too.

I'd probably say that a disintegrate would destroy only the elemental it targeted, but the group's HP would decrease by whatever average amount any given elemental would contribute (So, if there were 1000 HP and 20 elementals, 50 HP reduced).

mcv
2008-09-09, 12:43 PM
YSwordsages--especially halfling ones, with size modifier and the dex increase--are GOING to have very high AC. They get light armor, wis to AC, and a lot of incentive to max out their dex.
Do WIS and DEX add to AC? That doesn't sound right. (But I know nothing about Swordsages.)


Now that I think about it, an additional part of the problem here was that the party kind of threw me for a loop at loot distribution for the previous game. Among the loot was an amulet of natural armor and a ring of protection. I had thought at least one of those would go to the barbarian. Instead, the swordsage claimed both, and no one complained. He also got a +1 short sword. I had forgotten about it before, to be honest. The end result is that about 40% of the party's total wealth was focused on him.
If the party focuses all their magic items on a single character, then trying to hurt that character will prove that this was a smart decision. Instead, go after the others. Soon they'll want their share of the loot.

But even without that, I'd say it's not a smart decision to go after the Swordsage. Making the entire game about him rewards his behaviour. Instead, give everybody the same opportunity to get some limelight. Create opportunities for the others to shine. And if you do want to take the Swordsage down a notch, don't do it by proving how much he needs his high AC (because he'll only max it out more if you do). Do it with AoE attacks. Let him fail saves and take damage where his high AC won't save him.

But most of all: do not power up monsters to the point where they'll wipe out the rest of the party just to hurt the Swordsage.

If you do want to hurt him, you know his weakness: if you want to make the high-HP guys shine, have everybody take tons of damage in a way that no AC or saving throw can save them. But if that doesn't work, just ignore it. Make sure every is having fun. That's the most important part.

Yakk
2008-09-09, 02:04 PM
So, backing up to what you could do in the encounter.

In general, that Swordsage is specialized as being "nearly unhittable in melee".

Accept that. The Swordsage is a dancing, twirling, parrying beast.

Have monsters attack the Swordmage in melee, and narrate the attack being deflected. Have the monster get frustrated, and attack someone else. Hell -- if you have a flavor element like the Scythe, you can even have it be thrown out of the elementals' grasp, which changes what the Elemental does.

You are on a wooden floor -- so the Elemental attacks the Swordsage. The rock creature swings the sythe, which the Swordsage jumps over. The next miss the Scythe gets cut in two by the Swordsage. The creature then moves right by the swordsage (provoking OAs, taking damage), and attacks someone else. Or maybe it smashes through the floor, taking the entire fight down into the basement (where earthglide works).

The best part about this approach is that the swordsage gets to feel powerful, if you connect you connect (bonus!), and if you don't connect the monster responds with the expected level of frustration -- it is roleplaying the creature. :-)

And "floor being broken under their feet" generates a nice image for the party, even if nothing else of note happens.

Finally, note that save-based attacks are no harder to connect on the swordsage than anything else...

Admittedly, what you described was a 1/1024 event (10 50-50 chances landing 0 every time). So you really should be presuming that you will get at least 1 hit in. :-)

BlueWizard
2008-09-09, 10:04 PM
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO to DM fudging.

The failure of your monsters is your PCs' delight. Let them enjoy beating the monster you created.

I once lost the ruler of my entire planet because of one fumble. The players talked about it for years, and it is still a legend in my world.

Just as equally my PCs know that when doom-time comes to their PC it was all fair and according to the dice. If you really need a 'put-them-in-their-place' encounter, you need to make it obvious. Bring in a colossal dragon to toy with them. Then you will get their attention.

Justin_Bacon
2008-09-10, 08:05 PM
The battle starts, and the swordsage quickly gets the thing's attention, figuring that his high AC would protect him. I was getting ready to disappoint him... Then rolled a 3. Next round, a 4. 3, 6, 7, 2, 5, and so on. The one twenty I roll is a reflex save that the elemental can easily make anyway. The fight dragged on with the big elemental missing over and over again, and the swordsage getting terribly cocky. This entire thing was meant in part to knock him down a peg--he'd had a similar experience the previous session. The entire fight ended with me having rolled above 10 once, after about 10 rounds. The swordsage player is cockier than ever now, and I'm left pondering what should have happened.

So, what do you, as a DM, do when you're rolling poorly on a fight? So poorly that a fight that should be climactic and dangerous ends up just looking silly?

My first question would be: Why do you feel the need to knock the PC down a peg?

These bad rolls give the PC a chance to look awesome. I have never had a campaign go badly because the PCs are too awesome.

So my solution to poor rolling as a DM is to just make sure that the descriptions are dramatic and place the cause for failure on the PCs: It's not that the elemental sucks, it's that the swordsage is awesome.