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Brauron
2008-09-08, 03:52 PM
This past weekend I ran the first session of a new campaign. Next weekend, I'm rebooting the campaign from the start point because I'm not happy with the way the first session went. This is largely my own fault -- I was not as organized as I usually am, etc.

However, one thing that is not my fault is a squabble that took place between two of the characters. The PCs had been hiking for about eight hours through dense jungle, and were getting tired. PC A wanted to hike back 25 miles to where they'd begun, as it was a confirmed safe place to rest, in the midst of dangerous wilderness. PC B wanted to push forward to a clearing that had been she'd sighted when she'd climbed a tree, and make camp there, so that they could easily continue on after resting and find the missing NPCs they were trying to locate.

PC B complains to PC A that PC A is being stupid.
PC A points a gun in PC B's face.
PC B announces that she has Quick Draw (she's new to D20, and hasn't picked up all the nuances yet) and will shoot PC A before he can shoot her.

I defused the situation by having Neanderthals coated in camoflage warpaint appear out of the brush, grab PC B, and carry her off.

I don't want this to happen again.

Any suggestions for deterrent strategies?

Hzurr
2008-09-08, 04:10 PM
Hmm...was there any OOC player tension? I mean, I can see PCs having a disagreement about an issue like this, but it really shouldn't have escalated as quickly as it seems it did.

A few things:
PC B calls PC A stupid, so PC A pulls a gun? At this point, stop and make sure that the player is thinking clearly. I mean, honestly, pulling out a gun as soon as someone calls you stupid? I hate to think what would happen if PC B had told a "yo mamma" joke.

As for PC B reacting and shooting PC A, while this is still jumping the gun a bit (no pun intended. Well... maybe a little bit intended) immediately shooting PC A seems a bit much, but it is a little understandable.

While it seems that PC A is being a bit stupid, overall I'd say the problem is that your players are forgetting that the PCs they are playing are real people (in an imaginary sort of way). People do stupid thing when they're tired, but they don't pull a gun out and shoot someone for that. The next time a PC does something like that, simply look at the player and say "Are you serious? You're really going to do X because of [b]y[/b/], just to give the player to think again before they do something completely stupid.

AKA_Bait
2008-09-08, 04:15 PM
Hmm...was there any OOC player tension? I mean, I can see PCs having a disagreement about an issue like this, but it really shouldn't have escalated as quickly as it seems it did.

This. I've had OOC issues come to my game table before and this sounds exactly like the kind of behaviour that goes on when two players don't like eachother and are passivley agressivley using the game to express that. Find out what is going on there and talk to your players about keeping OOC stuff away from the table.


While it seems that PC A is being a bit stupid, overall I'd say the problem is that your players are forgetting that the PCs they are playing are real people (in an imaginary sort of way). People do stupid thing when they're tired, but they don't pull a gun out and shoot someone for that. The next time a PC does something like that, simply look at the player and say "Are you serious? You're really going to do X because of [b]y[/b/], just to give the player to think again before they do something completely stupid.

This also. Anytime a player does something that silly and outside the range of a rational characters behaviour, stop and as the "Really?" question. Most of the time they will think twice about it.

Kizara
2008-09-08, 04:17 PM
Next time make sure PC B has a bigger gun.

Darwinism should favor the more intelligent. :)

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2008-09-08, 04:31 PM
Well, first you ensure the group that your DM/Pimp hand is strong by slapping PC A. PC A's character was informed they were being ignorant, (and form what I can tell yeah, they were. Back tracking a full day simply because one person wants to is retarded. If they know of a clearing, head for it, otherwise by back tracking they lose the entire days worth of work.) and so PC A pulls a gun out. So...Um, at this point PC B informs PC A that they can shoot better.
What happens here? PC P pulls a gun out and puts it to PC A's head. Demands PC A's gun, and PC A is kept under close watch for the remainder of the quest/job/fun hike throught he woods.
If PC A refuses, then PC A has proven they are a threat and nolonger able to make sound judgement, you then kill PC A.

TheThan
2008-09-08, 05:18 PM
I’m with AKA_bait.

Its sounds like an OOC issue and probably needs to be solved OOC.

What I’d do is get them together for lunch or something and talk to both of them about it. Express your concerns about the game and about the friendship you three have (I’m assuming there is a friendship here. most people play with friends after all). See if you can figure out a diplomatic solution to the problem.

Or if you can’t do lunch tell both of them that you’ll be starting an hour earlier than normal for that session. Then when they get there talk to them about it.

Brauron
2008-09-08, 05:22 PM
Hzurr and AKA_Bait: There was no real OOC player tension, more a clash of personality types. The person who plays PC A has a very dominant personality, despite choosing to play secondary characters (for example, he plays nothing but bards in D&D, and not as "leader" characters but almost purely as comic relief sidekicks). He does not easily tolerate any one else telling him his ideas are bad.

The player who plays PC B, on the other hand, is extremely stubborn and headstrong, and considers backing down from any sort of confrontation to be a sign of personal weakness. As she isn't a real strong or independent roleplayer yet, her characters have her personality.

Also, to clarify, PC B did not get a chance to fire her gun at PC A -- the Neanderthals grabbed her before that could happen.

Thank you all for the advice -- I'll keep it in mind.

Tengu_temp
2008-09-08, 06:42 PM
Deus Ex Machina Neandertals are able to jump out from their cover, grab one of the PCs (and the one who didn't do anything stupid here, on top of that) and run away before any of the PCs has a chance to shoot at the other? I'm not sure if you handled the conflict well here.

The problem here is that player A is set on playing characters who, by definition, are not team players. I wouldn't want to adventure with someone who points a gun at me when I disagree with him. I'd dump him somewhere. Preferably at the local asylum.

Lycan 01
2008-09-08, 06:53 PM
I have it worse. My best friend refuses to even come over if my roommate is there, simply because of a joke gone awry in Call of Cthulhu. I'm sure most of you have heard the story, so I'm not gonna bother writing it again...

The point is, my best friend overreacted, and now he hates my roomie over the game. I mean, thats fine and dandy, but when he refuses to even come over because the guy's there... that offends me. He should be able to put aside a stupid case of intended friendly fire, and be nice to his best friend.


Oh, and as a side note, my best friend's next character is apparently intent on two things: revive his son (former character), and kill his killer (roomie's char...) in revenge.


If this keeps up, I'm gonna have to lay down the law. I'm already bringing out Nyarlathotep as punishment for the rest of my group's habit of shooting innocent people and screwing up the plot. I'd have no second thoughts about killing 2 characters for the heckuvit.

Prometheus
2008-09-08, 07:50 PM
Where is the third character in all this? You'd think two players would pulling a gun on each other would get another character to say something like "everyone calm down, no matter where we end up for the night it is a hell of a lot more dangerous one man down and with the sound of a gunshot alerting everything nearby." or they would pick a side and the player who is on the opposite side would feel very much like they cannot shoot enough bullets to get what they want. Of course, I can see why the Deus Ex Machina Neanderthals don't want to take their chances.

AKA_Bait was right about another thing, treat a player's decision to make a stupid action as ambiguous as to whether he (or she) really intended to perform the action or whether it was OOC. If it's OOC at least his character doesn't have to feel like he has to back down from something he said, even if the player does. Also, Player A was being stupid (who made the worse decision and who pulled the gun first), as someone who has played the game before he should know that there are no rp experience points for stupid.

Finally Brauron, I don't think there was anything you did wrong planning wise. The dilemma of where to go to sleep for the night and how to negotiate between competing opinions is one that is very common-place and should not result in character death. Only Players can make it into that. As to having the neanderthals sweep in and reboot the campaign, no one can say whether or not it was the best option but certainly it was an option which achieved what was important - stopping the madness and letting the PCs (or at least one of the PCs) know they were being stupid.

Edit: I feel dumb.

Brauron
2008-09-08, 11:49 PM
Funnily enough, the Deus ex Machina Neandertals were actually Plot-Significant Neandertals. The PCs are on a "King Kong" esque island, populated by dinosaurs, prehistoric mammals and cavemen. I had actually been looking for the opportunity to have the Neandertals, whom the PCs had seen hints of -- footprints, etc. -- surprise them and kidnap one of them. The PCs all agreed afterwards that what I did was probably the "best" thing I could do in that situation.

As for the other PCs, PCs C and D were unarmed, PC E sided with PC B that the clearing would be an acceptable place to spend the night, and PC F's player had left the table to go to the bathroom.

What was horrendously funny was that PC A was meant as a non-combatant type character (like I said, PC A's player plays comic-relief sidekick bards most of the time), and only had the shotgun in his hands because PC E, a Big Game Hunter, handed it off to him to lighten his own encumbrance.

Ahh, well. So it goes. As I said, I'm rebooting the campaign from the start, and changing some significant details so the players don't really know what to expect going in. And I've asked PC A to make a new character who is more suited to being a team player.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2008-09-09, 01:06 AM
Rebooting a game is BAD. With a capital B-A-D. Hence why I typed it in caps.
I can tell you from experience, having been rebooted a while ago due to poor interactions, it's not fun, and it generally ticks players off. The best solution is instead of rebooting make the group have to chase down and recover the encaptured PC. You've made a mistake with your Deus Ex there, admitting is good, but rewinding is not the way to handle it. It often times makes players feel like they're watsing their time.
Keep on the track you've set rather then reboot, if you play your cards right, maybe PC A, who seems to love the spotlight too much, will learn something.

BobVosh
2008-09-09, 01:11 AM
Deus Ex Machina Neandertals are able to jump out from their cover, grab one of the PCs (and the one who didn't do anything stupid here, on top of that) and run away before any of the PCs has a chance to shoot at the other? I'm not sure if you handled the conflict well here.

Ninja Deus Ex Machina Plot Significant Neanderthals. So many templates, perfect for defusing tricky situations.

As for how I would handle the situation I would have let one guy shoot the other, and I imagine the party would then place the other under house arrest. Then person X appears to replace the shot guy.

I would like to point out that a safe spot was probably a good idea if these Neanderthals were so stealthy.

I think the real question is were the two of them acting out thier characters, or were they actually angry OoG?

turkishproverb
2008-09-09, 01:14 AM
PC B complains to PC A that PC A is being stupid.
PC A points a gun in PC B's face.
PC B announces that she has Quick Draw (she's new to D20, and hasn't picked up all the nuances yet) and will shoot PC A before he can shoot her.

I defused the situation by having Neanderthals coated in camoflage warpaint appear out of the brush, grab PC B, and carry her off.

I don't want this to happen again.

Any suggestions for deterrent strategies?

Rocks fall everyone dies. Conformity through peer punishment.

AKA_Bait
2008-09-09, 09:31 AM
Finally AKA_Bait,

You meant to say "Finally Brauron," here right? Just avoiding confusion.


Hzurr and AKA_Bait: There was no real OOC player tension, more a clash of personality types.

To somewhat echo a question above, this was OOC personality types or IC personality types clashing? From the rest of what you wrote it seems like the players have a personality clash and that the root cause of the conflict was player A's refusal to brook disagreement and player B's refusal to back down. If that's the case, it is something you need to discuss with your players out of game. A group simply will not function if every time there is an IC disagreement the players get mad at eachother and as a consequence their characters get homicidal.

Krrth
2008-09-09, 09:37 AM
...What does it say about me that the first thing I though of when reading the OP's problem was "Whay would you want to backtrack 25 MILES. Do these people have any idea how long that would take?!!?".

To answer the actual question however, I agree with the others in that it seems to be an OOC issue. Sometimes things like th is can happen for purely IC reasons, but not often.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-09, 10:06 AM
PC B complains to PC A that PC A is being stupid.
PC A points a gun in PC B's face.
PC B announces that she has Quick Draw (she's new to D20, and hasn't picked up all the nuances yet) and will shoot PC A before he can shoot her.

I defused the situation by having Neanderthals coated in camoflage warpaint appear out of the brush, grab PC B, and carry her off.

I don't want this to happen again.

Any suggestions for deterrent strategies?

How about talking to them? "Guys, don't be idiots. You're supposed to be working together. Nobody's pulled a gun on anybody, now talk it out. Here's what you know, in case you need some information to reach a decision..."

Punishing the player who didn't start the ****storm is bad enough, but doing it with magical ninja neanderthals that apparently can't be reacted to is fairly high up there in the "Signs you should not be a GM" list.

AKA_Bait
2008-09-09, 10:13 AM
How about talking to them? "Guys, don't be idiots. You're supposed to be working together. Nobody's pulled a gun on anybody, now talk it out. Here's what you know, in case you need some information to reach a decision..."

Well sure, but sometimes, particularly for newer DM's, it can be difficult to have that kind of heavy hand over PC action, even when it's warranted. Give the OP a break.


Punishing the player who didn't start the ****storm is bad enough, but doing it with magical ninja neanderthals that apparently can't be reacted to is fairly high up there in the "Signs you should not be a GM" list.

I'd say it's pretty high up there in the "Signs that there are things a GM can still learn" list. Presumably the OP posted here for exactly that reason, to learn how to better handle situations like this. Isn't the fact that they are asking how to be better at it pretty high up on the "Signs that you could be an awesome GM" list? I'd think so.

Learnedguy
2008-09-09, 10:42 AM
PC B complains to PC A that PC A is being stupid.
PC A points a gun in PC B's face.
PC B announces that she has Quick Draw (she's new to D20, and hasn't picked up all the nuances yet) and will shoot PC A before he can shoot her.

The PC capability of violence always amazes me. They have one minor argument and someone gets their head chopped off. Why can't you just talk about it:smalleek:?!

Anyway, I'd just tell them that OOC to cut the crap or the uglier one gets it.

Brauron
2008-09-09, 10:56 AM
I am more than willing to admit that much of the problem was my fault. And I am honestly of the opinion that it is impossible for me to stop learning how to be a better GM. I do my best, and most people seem to be pretty happy with the way I run games. I had an off-night on Saturday when I ran this session.

To provide a bit more in the way of background and clear up some confusion, the PCs are an expedition, organized and bankrolled by an NPC. Said NPC vanished while the PCs were distracted by a disturbed flock of pterodactyls. They found the NPC's boot tracks as well as bare footprints and signs of a scuffle. They begin to follow the track of the abductors through the jungle. The NPC was abducted by Neanderthals, and other Neanderthals were stalking the PCs -- they'd find fresh tracks, hear rustling in the brush around them, half-glimpsed figures moving through the jungle on either side of them, etc.

My plan was for the Neanderthals to abduct one or more of the PCs, and carry them off to their village, intent on eating them.

Player A, I realize upon further reflection, may have been concerned about such an attack and considered the home base, 25 miles away, the one safe place to spend the night.

I used the conflict between player A and player B to move the story along in addition to preventing their characters from killing one another. The non-abducted PCs then mobilized themselves, purpose renewed, to track down the neanderthals and get PC B back.

I had players A, C, D, E, and F leave the room for a little bit and ran a solo adventure for Player B. She broke free from the Neanderthals grasp, ran through the jungle, encountered a very large crocodile, ran from that, right back in to the arms of the Neanderthals, who carried her to their village (she failed three more attempts to break free due to poor rolls) and put her in a cage with the missing NPC. Then the other players were brought back and I ran them through tracking the missing NPC and player B. The session ended when they found the Neanderthal village and saw her in the cage.

AKA_Bait, I apologize for any miscommunication I may have caused. Both players' characters actually had roughly the same personalities as their players.

I spent this morning talking to players A and B. Player B feels that restarting the campaign is acceptable, as she has played in another game I GMed and recognized that I was not operating at my best. Player A felt the same, but commented that he was considering leaving the group, as he felt that the same conflict would arise regardless of what sort of character he played, due to the underlying clash of personalities.

Charity
2008-09-09, 10:56 AM
Tie the players left hands together, blindfold them both and give them each a knife... whut?


Often players, particularly less mature ones will take disproportionate actions.
Generally because it is quite liberating to be allowed to do whatever you want, no exceptions for the first time. The main way to stop this sort of thing is to make sure there are consequences, I would suggest (if there really is no player conflict) to intervene more subtly, maybe a gun jam, maybe a rock whizz's by their head.
Explain that nobody is going to go around with a gun totting psycho for very long and they (win or lose) will end up needing a new character.

+ the are you sure? question is often a good way to take out the heat

Krrth
2008-09-09, 11:06 AM
I spent this morning talking to players A and B. Player B feels that restarting the campaign is acceptable, as she has played in another game I GMed and recognized that I was not operating at my best. Player A felt the same, but commented that he was considering leaving the group, as he felt that the same conflict would arise regardless of what sort of character he played, due to the underlying clash of personalities.

I've had a similar clash with one of my friends. It ended up with us not playing in the same game. That may end up being your best bet, if the players involved think they cannot fix it otherwise.

AKA_Bait
2008-09-09, 11:09 AM
I am more than willing to admit that much of the problem was my fault. And I am honestly of the opinion that it is impossible for me to stop learning how to be a better GM.

Amen brother. Me too.


AKA_Bait, I apologize for any miscommunication I may have caused. Both players' characters actually had roughly the same personalities as their players.

I kinda suspected that was the case. No need to apologize though, that's what follow up questions are for after all.


Player A felt the same, but commented that he was considering leaving the group, as he felt that the same conflict would arise regardless of what sort of character he played, due to the underlying clash of personalities.

Well, I hate to say it but Player A might have a point. If he honestly does think that he won't be able to behave himself in a manner that suits the group given the other players in the group, his leaving might be a better option for everyone. Sometimes you get addition by subtraction. The fact that he suggested it himself is a good thing, rather than having the issue arise over and over until you have to suggest it.

If he does leave, presumably on amicable terms, it's not the end of the world. You'll still have players B, C, D, E, and F, which is more than enough to run a game.

Out of curiosity, you noted that Player B had played in one of your earlier games. Is this the first time you have had Player A in one of yours?



The main way to stop this sort of thing is to make sure there are consequences, I would suggest (if there really is no player conflict) to intervene more subtly, maybe a gun jam, maybe a rock whizz's by their head.
Explain that nobody is going to go around with a gun totting psycho for very long and they (win or lose) will end up needing a new character.

Agreed, although I probably would have not use a gun jam or rock going by their head. I would, certianly, have stopped and asked players C, D, E, and F what they were doing in response to two of their party members drawing weapons on eachother so quickly and erratically or thrown an encounter, rather than a deusexkidnap, with the neanderthals at them right then and there. A bunch of monkey-men attempting to kill both of them might make them put aside their personal problems long enough to calm down some.

Prometheus
2008-09-09, 11:11 AM
You meant to say "Finally Brauron," here right? Just avoiding confusion.
Actually I was referring to your "Really?" comment and used the word "another" because someone else referred to what you had said on the other part of your post. I see how it looks like that with one paragraph after the other though.

TheElfLord
2008-09-09, 11:32 AM
Actually I was referring to your "Really?" comment and used the word "another" because someone else referred to what you had said on the other part of your post. I see how it looks like that with one paragraph after the other though.

No, I think he means your final paragraph, where you told AKA that he didn't do any bad planning for Brauron's game. but I agree, I don't hold AKA responsible for planning Brauron's game either.



...What does it say about me that the first thing I though of when reading the OP's problem was "Whay would you want to backtrack 25 MILES. Do these people have any idea how long that would take?!!?".

To answer the actual question however, I agree with the others in that it seems to be an OOC issue. Sometimes things like th is can happen for purely IC reasons, but not often.

Well I would say great minds think alike because that was my first thought as well. Traveling 25 miles through rough terrain in a day is a mammoth feat for a group of people. Traveling another 8-12 hours through rough terrain in the dark is ridiculous. The group would be super vulnerable the whole time, and would arrive back at camp around dawn, exhausted for traveling 50 miles in 24 hours through punishing terrain. Not to mention after they rest/treat medical problems resulting from a 50 mile forces march through rough terrain, they have to go back over the 25 miles a third time, just to get back to where they started a couple days prior.

Does player A know people don't travel as fast as cars? I think the real problem here is with Player A. If he's going to keep acting like an idiot, and keep flying off the hook whenever someone points out he's acting like and idiot to the point of deadly force, the game will keep having issues.

Brauron
2008-09-09, 11:47 AM
AKA_Bait: Bingo. This was my first time GMing for Player A. He'd sat in and listened during a couple sessions of my last campaign, and I watched him play in a friend's one-shot. He had made a decent impression on me then. So when he asked if it would be possible to join this year's campaign, I invited him to do so.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-09, 01:27 PM
Man, that's a totally different scenario, then.

Whichever player is unable or unwilling to compromise and get along with the other should leave the group, basically. If they can't get along - and sometimes even mature adults just can't stand each other for whatever reason - then someone has to leave or nobody has any fun.

Lycan 01
2008-09-09, 02:39 PM
What game are you playing, exactly? It sounds interesting...

Brauron
2008-09-09, 10:38 PM
"Forbidden Kingdoms", a Pulp d20 game based on 3.0 D&D, though I've modified it a little for 3.5 D&D compatability.

Brauron
2008-09-10, 07:46 AM
Update!

Player A has rolled up a new character, producing an ex-soldier-turned-bodyguard that looks to be a bit better suited to being a team player. I also worked with Player B to tweak her character a little bit, giving her a bit more definition and a clearer role within the party. Player C was unhappy with her character, a Fay Wray-esque movie star, so I worked with her to create a new character for her, an Annie Oakley-esque "Wild West Show" performer who has fallen on hard times.

Player B has some event going on with the sorority she's a member of on the night I had intended to restart the campaign, so the way we're working it (and she's extremely enthusiastic about this) is she'll be introduced a session later, when the rest of the PCs, plus their NPC organizer/financier, need a guide through the Gobi Desert, where PC B has spent the last ten years.

Lycan 01
2008-09-10, 04:16 PM
Cool! I'm glad you got your group problems worked out...


As it stands, my roomie wants to stick with his character, and my best friend has agreed to keep playing, and with better and more normal characters. Granted, they still hate each other...