worst moments of comic history.

[Dode]

i think the title says it all


http://ape-law.com/GAF/images/mtu_snl00.jpg


http://www.comicon.com/pulse/images_07a/23bmcd5_th.jpg

[Logic]

Okay, you have to explain your nerdage for the second one. I am not entirely up to date on DC and every little minutiae that occurs in their universe.

[tetsubo]

Okay, you have to explain your nerdage for the second one. I am not entirely up to date on DC and every little minutiae that occurs in their universe.

I think I might be mistaken but I do belive that would be superboy prime punching through the fabric of reality/pocket sub dimension/or where ever he was traped that held the universe together after the original Crisis on infinite earths to kick off infinite Crisis.

[Laurentio II]

While the first is a not-so-very-bad story featuring John Belushi and the Saturday Night Show cast, against Silver Samurai.
The "Kiss against Doctor Doom" is worse.

[Logic]

I've heard a little about Superboy Prime, and the Infinite Crisis Arc, and the later Crisis on Infinite Earths, but I never read them, and was under the impression that it was well received.

But then again, I would probably say that one of the worst moments in comic history is either One More Day/Brand New Day, Civil War, or anytime Batman pulls out something no one ever heard of, or suspected he had, to trump a villain. (But that last part of me is just the anti-Batman-fanboy in me.)

[Dode]

In Identity Crisis, the revelation of months-long story arcs in series completely unrelated ro the event, such as Jason Todd being resurrected, were explained by "Superboy-Prime" punching reality in a moment of wangst so hard that dead people came back to life.

it's just such a slap in the face to the reader (and yeah it paved the way for similar crap like One More Day) And at least in One More Day, it wasn't like Rhino walked up and punched the Spider-Marriage into non-being.

[Laurentio II]

the revelation of months-long story arcs in series completely unrelated in this event, such as Jason Todd being resurrected, were explained by "Superboy-Prime" punching reality so hard that dead people came back to life
We are speaking of the guy flying so fast that travel back in time? Albert Einstein is crying in the grave.

[Dode]

We are speaking of the guy flying so fast that travel back in time? Albert Einstein is crying in the grave.
No we're speaking of the alternate future guy of the guy, who's alternate future was wiped out in some crossover and we haven't heard from him in 26 years of publishing history until DC started retconning him into punching continuity across their franchise.

[Logic]

Wait, I thought Identity Crisis was where
Seriously Dude, Spoiler. If you open it, and it was the wrong comic, sorry I ruined something you probably would be let down about the ending anyway.where the ex-wife of The Atom kills a lesser superhero's wife, pretends to be attacked, all in a weird effort to get her ex-husband back.

[Nevrmore]

Wait, I thought Identity Crisis was where
Seriously Dude, Spoiler. If you open it, and it was the wrong comic, sorry I ruined something you probably would be let down about the ending anyway.where the ex-wife of The Atom kills a lesser superhero's wife, pretends to be attacked, all in a weird effort to get her ex-husband back.
I'm pretty sure he meant Infinite Crisis, not Identity Crisis.

[Xenogears]

Worst moments? When in one comic Superman is looking at Superboy and tells him "I'm looking at your soul. Don't worry it's fine." It's not bed enough that Superman can literally just look at you and see your DNA or look to the ends of the universe but now he can see your very soul!? Seriously? So how would anyone trick him? If you disguise yourself he can just read your DNA. If you pretend to be good he can just view your soul and realize your not good. How does anyone ever trick him?

[tribble]

it's called metaphor. superman is apparently a good judge of character.

[Revlid]

it's called metaphor. superman is apparently a good judge of character.

HAHAHAHAHAHA! (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/6093278.html)

Oh, if only.

[Tirian]

Infinite Crisis can't hold a candle to Armageddon 2001. This is the story where Waverider premieres, showing up in 1991 with the knowledge that some great hero goes mad and takes over the world within ten years but doesn't know which one, so he probes the future of every hero. (The annuals spawned by this device were actually generally good and contain classics like Superman getting elected President.)

The problem is that this happened at the dawn of the internet, and everyone on the internet knew that the villain was going to be Captain Atom. This bothered the editors, so they had the writers change the story in mid-stream so that the villain would be Hawk, without so much changing the clues that didn't point at him at all. And then, to seal the deal, Hawk went mad and killed Dawn Granger, the most interesting superheroine of the time.

I gather that the story is so hated that Infinite Crisis retconned it so that now Monarch is and always has been Captain Atom.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Come on. I read Infinite Crisis. It wasn't that bad, except for the reality-punching and the plunge through the sun.

I'd say the worst moment (if you can call it a moment) is Hawkman's history. GOD does it hurt!

oh, and Logic: Crisis on Infinite Earths was back in the '80s, when DC got rid of the multiverse. Infinite Crisis, the sequel, brought it back.

[sealemon]

Superboy prime punching reality IS pretty lame, but at least it was in character for him, and well within his abilities, considering his pocket diminsion bordered reality, and he has Silver Age superman strength. Still lame, but eons better than Parker making a deal with the devil to sacrifice his marrage so his decrepit aunt could live another few years.

But even worse than OMD would be the Spider Clone saga.

And I haven't read it, but apparently Amazon's Attack was made of pure anti-win.

[Areswargod139]

i think the title says it all


http://ape-law.com/GAF/images/mtu_snl00.jpg

Oh my gosh, that is frickin' hilarious!

Let's see...worst comic huh? Well, I'm a bronze age enthusiast (one of the few left, I think) so I thought the huge retconning of Hal Jordan's only moment of character growth in Birthright was a bit of a jerk-out.

And I wished that the brief tenure of Impulse as the flash had been a bit better written. I've always thought of DC as different from marvel as far as time was concerned; whereas Marvel was in a "Simpson year" where events were never more than a few months from each other and no real amount of time ever passes, DC has always been good about showing other characters getting older (like the aformentioned Hal Jordan, though I here that's been retconned as well). With he exception of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, DC has always changed their lineup every twenty years or so. That kind of changed when the so called "platinum age" sprung up that was so obsessed with the "good 'ol days" of the Silver age. But that's a rant for another time.:smallfurious:

[Dode]

I'm pretty sure he meant Infinite Crisis, not Identity Crisis.
Doesn't matter though, Identity Crisis wasn't great either I mean,

Atom's ex-wife, who divorced Atom over a decade ago, who spurned every attempt at reconciliation, who's moved on with her life, suddenly murdering people left and right (including the friends of people who weren't superheroes until years after she left the superhero community) just so Atom will respond to her booty call. What, that doesn't make sense? It doesn't have to because she's C-C-C-C-CRAZY with looovvvvee for the Atom

I mean when that's the big payoff to the big series that was sold as "comic book involving superheroes written by accredited mystery writer, it'll prove comics are just as valid as other forms of storytelling" it was pretty pathetic.

[FoE]

This ranks pretty high in terms of sights that offend the eye. :smalltongue:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ac/ArchiePunisher.jpg

Seriously, though, One More Day. Blech.

"I want your marriage." Oh, Mephisto, you character!

[Zolem]

Hmm, I've got two personal moments. The first was when they de-powered Wonder Woma. No, I don't mean they toned down her powers, she's not as strong, can't faly as fast, or somthign like that. I mean they DE-powered her. She had nada, zip, zilch. Here was the icon of women empowerment among superheroes, reduced to weaker than Aquaman. At least he has the ability to talk to fish. Yes, that's how low she sank. Sub-Aquaman before he rebooted.

My second personal worst moment was the death of Peter's aunborn baby. A real moment where I wanted to go back in time and rip the balls off whoever had the idea to have the unborn baby POISONED and killed. I know a lot of people wanted status quo at the office, but killing a baby with poison in the mothers womb has got to be the sickest think a comic writer can do. A miscarage would have still be tragic, but understandable since it happens in real life. But poisoning it crosses too manny lines.

[archon_huskie]

Worst moments? When in one comic Superman is looking at Superboy and tells him "I'm looking at your soul. Don't worry it's fine." It's not bed enough that Superman can literally just look at you and see your DNA or look to the ends of the universe but now he can see your very soul!? Seriously? So how would anyone trick him? If you disguise yourself he can just read your DNA. If you pretend to be good he can just view your soul and realize your not good. How does anyone ever trick him?

I do not think that conversation was with Superman. I believe that conversation was with Raven or Zatanna or some other mystically/divinely inclined superhero.

[Logic]

Superboy prime punching reality IS pretty lame, but at least it was in character for him, and well within his abilities, considering his pocket diminsion bordered reality, and he has Silver Age superman strength. Still lame, but eons better than Parker making a deal with the devil to sacrifice his marrage so his decrepit aunt could live another few years.

But even worse than OMD would be the Spider Clone saga.

And I haven't read it, but apparently Amazon's Attack was made of pure anti-win.

In this case, you might want to read it before you judge. Every Spider-Man fan I have talked to says that OMD/BND are more of a slap in the face than the Clone Saga ever was.

I read the majority of the Clone Saga. I liked it. The worst part about the entire run, was that because they had two Spider-Men running around for years, there were a billion other stories involving EVEN MORE CLONES OF SPIDER-MAN running around. The worst moment in the run, was when they killed Ben Reilly, my favorite character. If they had simply stopped writing about all the OTHER clones of Spider-Man, then it probably wouldn't have been so bad.

[Dode]

The Clone Saga's premise itself wasn't bad, it was the fact it ate up hundreds of comics over the course of years (multiple series of Spider-Man) with no resolution in sight that made it nearly kill off the Spider-Man franchise.

And even then Spider-Man was a rudderless, empty title until JMS put 6 years into the title and took it into new, yet often unpopular territory (Spider-Totem, Sins Past, New Avengers, Civil War) yet ended up at least moving the title beyond the ruins of the Clone Saga. When JMS misstepped (Sins Past), he misstepped but when he had his crap together the stories were amazing (Spider-Man going public and switching sides in Civil War).

What Brand New Day did was undo all of JMS' work and slap every current Spider-Man reader in the face in order to undo the Peter/Mary Jane marriage (what Marvel's Editor in Chief believes was the real problem with Spider-Man) and start dishing out new stories that are in reality just stories thrown together from bits and pieces of old Spider-Man plots from 20 years ago. I don't know about you, but taking the entire supporting cast I've known after 6 years (20+ if you include MJ) and throw them out so you can make stories about Aunt May and wheatcakes and "does Harry Osborn know Peter Parker's secret identity?!?!" while making Peter Parker a pathetic manchild in the process, kind of kills my interest in the comic even if you have McNiven on art.

[darkblade]

No one has mentioned the true low that comic books can thnk to, while it is non-cannon it did manage to single handidly ruin Dark Knight Returns. I am of course referering to All Star Batman and Robin aka ASSBAR by Frank Miller.

[Dode]

LOVE... CHUNKS.

[sealemon]

No one has mentioned the true low that comic books can thnk to, while it is non-cannon it did manage to single handidly ruin Dark Knight Returns. I am of course referering to All Star Batman and Robin aka ASSBAR by Frank Miller.

I'll probably catch some heat fo this one, but DKR Part II ruined DKR. Millar sold his soul when he made that piece of toilet paper. Highlander 2 wasn't as big of a letdown for me as that sequel was.

And I will give it to you guys, on further thought OMD is truly the low point of Spider-Man.

[darkblade]

I'll probably catch some heat fo this one, but DKR Part II ruined DKR. Millar sold his soul when he made that piece of toilet paper. Highlander 2 wasn't as big of a letdown for me as that sequel was.


You mean The Dark Knight Strikes Again? That one was pretty bad writing wise but in a So Bad Its Good way and a weird art style change it just didn't mesh well with Dark Knight Returns.

ASSBAR had amazing art but when the highest point of intelligence in a book is "I'm the Goddamn Batman" you know something is wrong.

Just to top it off it looks like Frank Miller is defiling Batman even more. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Terror,_Batman!)

[Tirian]

I'll probably catch some heat fo this one, but DKR Part II ruined DKR. Millar sold his soul when he made that piece of toilet paper.

The only reason you'd take heat for saying that is because some of us have made some progress in repressing the memory of that train wreck and now we're back to square one. It's like The Game except that it's real.

[Zolem]

Superboy prime punching reality IS pretty lame, but at least it was in character for him, and well within his abilities, considering his pocket diminsion bordered reality, and he has Silver Age superman strength. Still lame, but eons better than Parker making a deal with the devil to sacrifice his marrage so his decrepit aunt could live another few years.

But even worse than OMD would be the Spider Clone saga.

And I haven't read it, but apparently Amazon's Attack was made of pure anti-win.

Amazon's Attack was an idiot plot major multi-product story arc. You cannot have somthing on that scale be an idiot plot.

The Clone Saga wasn't too bad, it just got rediculous twords the end. If we had finished off with Kaine, Pete, and Ben it would have all been good. And we did. But the Goblin's return kiled Ben, and Kain became an anti-hero/villain who was really complex and hard to figure out.

Brand New Day is a kick in the balls to Peter. It was so forced it's not even funny. Peter is back to,no, behind square 1 of where he was in issue 1. Now instead of a teen with those early problems, he's in his mid thirties. All the things he worked for in life, all the respect and ability he's earned, his wife, his development as a person. All gone. We've watched Pete build up to his peak over the years. And now in one issue he's worse off than ever. Well screw you Marvle. I'm still waiting for you to undew BND. If you don't I'm seriously considering giving up on Spider-man.

[Laurentio II]

Reading this thread is making me cry in retrospective. And still can't think the WORST comic I read. Everytime I think of one, some moment later there is one more.
Hulk "Mr. Fixit in Las Vegas"? The Man-Thing army-political-cospiration scenario where everyone makes mutant soldiers? A story where the DC comics destroy the multiverse to make a massive ret con? I means, all of them? Most of the The Defenders?

Help...

[Hzurr]

I keep on debating about Dark Knight Strikes Again. I've heard it's horrible, but I kindof want to see what all the fuss is about.

On a similar note, one of the worst moments in comics (mainly because it ruined DKR for me, which I had loved and re-read multiple times) was the part in DRK where

Batman shoots and kills a guy. Seriously, what? He's confronting some mutants who have kidnapped a baby, and he freaking shoots and kills one of them. It not only goes against the entire Batman mithos, it also takes away from the awesomeness that was the scene with the Joker later on.

[darkblade]

I keep on debating about Dark Knight Strikes Again. I've heard it's horrible, but I kindof want to see what all the fuss is about.

On a similar note, one of the worst moments in comics (mainly because it ruined DKR for me, which I had loved and re-read multiple times) was the part in DRK where

Batman shoots and kills a guy. Seriously, what? He's confronting some mutants who have kidnapped a baby, and he freaking shoots and kills one of them. It not only goes against the entire Batman mithos, it also takes away from the awesomeness that was the scene with the Joker later on.

Batman didn't shoot anyone, he grabed a guy from behind who paniced and accidently shot his buddy. The fact that Batman just let this happen knowing full well that it would is kinda disturbing though.

[SteveMB]

I am of course referering to All Star Batman and Robin aka ASSBAR by Frank Miller.

The only way I know of to extract any entertainment value from ASSBAR is to imagine the dialect being delivered in the voices of Adam West and Burt Ward.

[chiasaur11]

The only way I know of to extract any entertainment value from ASSBAR is to imagine the dialect being delivered in the voices of Adam West and Burt Ward.

As great as that is, some entertainment is to be had simply from reading choice panels for free.

The lemonade line, alone...

[horngeek]

Brand New Day. I haven't read it because the premise has made me angry enough to not read spider-man until they retcon it. They had BETTER retcon it. :smallfurious:

[InkEyes]

I thought the consensus now was that all of All-Star Batman and Robin is a very intentional self-parody of Frank Miller's writing style? I've also heard that the more recent issues are of a marginally better quality. Don't get me wrong, I wish that ASB had taken the same path as All-Star Superman and simply been interesting retellings of classic stories, but as it is everything in it's tongue-in-cheek.

The Dark Knight Strikes Again is the same way; Frank Miller wrote it because people begged for a sequel to DKR for so long that he finally caved, but instead of playing it straight he decided to mock the way comics had become in the interim. People looked at DKR and thought it was good because of all the violence and overall dark mood and comics as a whole drifted in that direction. Frank Miller took the elements of Dark Age comics and mixed it into his new story to show how absurd the whole concept of "dark and gritty" just for the sake of "dark and gritty" was.

[Gavin Sage]

I tempted to say "I did it Thirty-Five Minutes ago," just to screw with the people.

Though honestly lets have some less BND hate. Not that I like it in the slightest but there's plenty of crap DC and Marvel have pulled lately to whine about. Anyone here read Death of the New Gods, now that's awful and didn't even have decent art.

[FoE]

I tempted to say "I did it Thirty-Five Minutes ago," just to screw with the people.

That was a hallmark for villainry everywhere.

[Jerthanis]

My second personal worst moment was the death of Peter's aunborn baby. A real moment where I wanted to go back in time and rip the balls off whoever had the idea to have the unborn baby POISONED and killed. I know a lot of people wanted status quo at the office, but killing a baby with poison in the mothers womb has got to be the sickest think a comic writer can do. A miscarage would have still be tragic, but understandable since it happens in real life. But poisoning it crosses too manny lines.

What kind of sick and twisted world are you being forced to live in? In my perception the baby lived and they decided to advance the storyline 15 years and Peter and MJ are living happily together with their teenage daughter May Parker and toddler Ben Parker. May has developed powers similar to her father, and has taken up the costume of her "Uncle Ben" (Ben Riley) who died saving her and doing her thing as the Amazing Spider-Girl. I know, it sounds stupid, having the children of well known heroes become title characters of their own as a legacy comic sounds awful, but somehow Amazing Spider-Girl is really really fantastic, to the point that I don't miss that they stopped putting out Amazing Spider-Man for the last six to eight years...

But no, seriously... I grew up with Peter and M.J. married. They were together and that was it. I decided I wanted to get married someday partly because I saw my favorite hero dealing with the ups and downs of marriage. I considered it a gold star that proved forever that Spider-Man was a more interesting hero than so many others. So many other heroes do the tango of gaining, developing and losing love interests. Characters who hold up their own lines tended to go through them at a brisk pace... but to me, Spider-Man's marriage was eternal, and never imagined it could ever go away. Joephisto decided to just [nasty words omitted] all over my childhood...

...which is frustrating, because one of my favorite stories I've never read involves the main romantic pairing losing all memories of their entire relationship, waking up one morning strangers to each other, with no feelings at all for each other, going about their lives as if they had never met one another, and falling right back in love with each other all over again. The potential for that storyline is almost enough to keep me reading, but I have no hope that such a thing will ever occur to them. One More Day was the turning point that got me into DC.

Also, I'm the one person in the world who liked Sins Past, and liked it a LOT. I also think its only flaw was that the twins weren't Peter's own kids like JMS originally intended, and they had to shoehorn in some pretty nasty squick with Gwen's rape... especially since the woman had been legendarily Stuffed in a Fridge (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge?from=Main.StuffedInTheFridge) already.

[FoE]

I could get Brand New Day if the reasons for a retcon was simply that too many messy storylines had occured over the years (the Morlun storyline, the Clone Saga, Norman Osborn returning, Peter unmasking himself, etc.) and the Spider-Man story had become unwritable. But the thing I can't swallow is that the whole reason for the retcon was to make Peter a pathetic nerd living in his aunt's basement because "the story was better when Peter was single."

Worse, the way they decided to retcon the story completely invalidates everythign over the past decade or so. AND IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY GODDAM SENSE.

Aunt May gets shot, so Peter makes a deal with the devil to save her. Christ, Peter, do you think May would want you to sacrifice your happiness just to save her?! (At least it should have been Mary Jane who got shot, and Peter decides to sacrifice his life with her in order to save her.) And what was that crap about Doctor Strange and the rest being unable to help him? Doctor Strange can re-write reality by sneezing, for ****'s sake.

What a load of crap.

[darkblade]

Frank Miller took the elements of Dark Age comics and mixed it into his new story to show how absurd the whole concept of "dark and gritty" just for the sake of "dark and gritty" was.

I thought it was pretty clear that Frank Miller LIKES "dark and gritty" for the sake of "dark and gritty".

[InkEyes]

I thought it was pretty clear that Frank Miller LIKES "dark and gritty" for the sake of "dark and gritty".

There's usually a lot more behind the "dark and gritty" stuff Frank Miller writes than say, Rob Liefeld.

Speaking of which, obligatory link (http://progressiveboink.com/archive/robliefeld.html). The very existence of Rob Liefeld as a professional comic writer and artist, if not the worst moment in comic history, is at least a very dark point.

[Hzurr]

Batman didn't shoot anyone, he grabed a guy from behind who paniced and accidently shot his buddy. The fact that Batman just let this happen knowing full well that it would is kinda disturbing though.

Nope, go read it again. He grabs one guy from behind who panics and shoots and all that, but one of the mutants grabs the baby, starts yelling "I'll kill it, believe me, I'll do it!" And batman takes the gun, shoots him, and says "I believe you."

Seriously, it sucks, and is horrible, and when a friend first told me about it, I told him he was full of crap, so I went back and re-read it like 5 times, and I can't come up with any other explanation.

[darkblade]

There's usually a lot more behind the "dark and gritty" stuff Frank Miller writes than say, Rob Liefeld.

Speaking of which, obligatory link (http://progressiveboink.com/archive/robliefeld.html). The very existence of Rob Liefeld as a professional comic writer and artist, if not the worst moment in comic history, is at least a very dark point.

I take it then you haven't heard of Holy Terror, Batman! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Terror,_Batman!) In which "The Goddamn ASSBAR Batman" fights Al Qaeda in Gotham. That is not subject matter you take on in a self parody. In fact thats subject matter that I can't get any further into on this board.

[chiasaur11]

I take it then you haven't heard of Holy Terror, Batman! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Terror,_Batman!) In which "The Goddamn ASSBAR Batman" fights Al Qaeda in Gotham. That is not subject matter you take on in a self parody. In fact thats subject matter that I can't get any further into on this board.

There is no way that's meant to be serious.

I mean, the name alone...

[InkEyes]

I have to agree with Chiasaur, there's no way Miller isn't doing that in a completely humorous light; I mean, you don't go saying some thing's a propaganda piece if you actually want people to take it at face value.

If anything, Miller's decided that he's finally beat the Dark Age satire into the ground and decided to move on to mocking how real-world politics have been incorporated into comics on occasion (http://superdickery.com/index.php?view=category&id=35%3Apropaganda-index&option=com_content&Itemid=24). As for whether it's an appropriate thing to do... well it's not the first time someone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_America:_World_Police) has done it.

[Dunesen]

The Apocalypse storyline in Ultimate X-Men was absolute crap, but hopefully it won't have any lasting noteriety a la One More Day/Brand New Day.

In terms of what's really had an impact on the industry, I would say the entire Darker and Edgier phase of the early to mid-90's stands out. Especially with anything that revolved around a major storyline that was supposed to change everything forever and obviously wasn't going to. Batman getting crippled would be a good example, but I'll throw in Superman dying as well because, while not gritty, was a blatant attempt at money-grabbing. And a poor one at that. Just a mindless monster without motivation or character pounding its way forward until Superman and it kill each other.

I understand that this is a business, but it's also a medium of entertainment and art. When the business end overshadows the art/entertainment part, everyone loses.

[darkblade]

In terms of what's really had an impact on the industry, I would say the entire Darker and Edgier phase of the early to mid-90's stands out. Especially with anything that revolved around a major storyline that was supposed to change everything forever and obviously wasn't going to. Batman getting crippled would be a good example, but I'll throw in Superman dying as well because, while not gritty, was a blatant attempt at money-grabbing. And a poor one at that. Just a mindless monster without motivation or character pounding its way forward until Superman and it kill each other.


I'm going to argue about Batman getting crippled. That story arc was one large Take That at the portion of fanbase that wanted Batman to be all grim and nasty by breify giving the Batman mantal to a psychotic nutcase with an insane array of various lethal weapons who wanted to kill all the criminals. Just to show everyone how bad that would be.

[jerichodrumm]

There was a Thor comic where Code: Blue (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Code:_Blue) go to Asgard to arrest Ulik.

Highlights of this little Gem are

Their female member infiltrating the Rock Troll Caves by putting on a sheet.
"As a competing body-builder I have the most troll-like physique out of all of you." she claims.

One of their team shattering a dude named "Uroc" who was made out of Uru (the same stuff that Thor's hammer is made out of) with what looks to be a 38 calibre pistol.

The head of their team fighting Ulik one on one. Somehow stone survives a bearhug from someone who is nearly as strong as Thor and manages to pull out a grenade and put it Ulik's face. After knocking Ulik over a cliff with a grenade an unharmed Lt Stone pulls out a pistol and aims it at the Rock Troll who has taken blows from Mjolnir. Ulik seems scared and tells Stone to go ahead and kill him. Stone says "You don't understand I am taking you in!" and precedes to read him his Miranda rights (they are in Asgard by the way).
Ulik vows he wont be taken alive and jumps to his (supposed) death.

[jerichodrumm]

Single worst comic moment...Rob Liefeld getting a job at Marvel.

[jerichodrumm]

The most memorable scene in RAVAGE 2099, and one that completely sums up the unique appeal of the book for me, happened in issue #2. It starts with Ravage tooling down the road in his vintage twentieth century garbage truck—he found it abandoned in a junk yard, apparently in perfect working order, a full tank of gas and the keys in the ignition—and adopted it as his mobile base of operations because, "it's got more power than that plastic crap they make today!" So Ravage is tooling along at maybe 30, 35 miles an hour, eluding the cops who are scouring the city to find him—since he's been framed as a criminal—and who can't seem to locate a big, hulking piece of green metal slowly wending its way through the city streets. As he drives, Ravage muses to himself that he's going to need an edge, something to level the playing field, since he's just one man against a whole army of guys with futuristic weapons. As luck would have it, at that very moment he happens to be passing by a gun shop, and in the window there's a display for "Ultimate Kevlar!" This one-of-a-kind item is so unique and valuable that the proprietor has chosen to put the only existing sample of the stuff in his shop window. "That's it!" says Ravage, who then makes quick work of the wrought-iron bars that are the window's only security system—this being the future and all—and makes off with the one-of-a kind Kevlar. As he makes his way back to his truck, Ravage muses that "This'll make me impervious to all of their lasers and guns and knives." The next panel shows Ravage sewing the Kevlar into the lining of his vest, with a simple needle and thread easily penetrating the stuff—so Ravage is completely bulletproof unless somebody comes at him with a needle...

[Nevrmore]

Wow dude, triple post! That makes you THREE TIMES COOLER than any of the losers in this thread!

Imagine me saying this post in a tubular surfer accent, it'll probably help accentuate my sarcasm!

[Shatteredtower]

On a similar note, one of the worst moments in comics (mainly because it ruined DKR for me, which I had loved and re-read multiple times) was the part in DRK where

Batman shoots and kills a guy. Seriously, what? He's confronting some mutants who have kidnapped a baby, and he freaking shoots and kills one of them. It not only goes against the entire Batman mithos, it also takes away from the awesomeness that was the scene with the Joker later on.

A child's welfare ranks higher on Batman's priority list than his abhorrence for guns. Seems like a perfectly plausible reason for breaking one of his best known taboos.

And because it's so well known, any scene in which we see Batman brandish a gun tends to have an impact. It usually destroys the scene to have him fire it, but having him draw one has a way of draining all certainty and security out of a scene for other characters -- and some readers.


Batman getting crippled would be a good example, but I'll throw in Superman dying as well because, while not gritty, was a blatant attempt at money-grabbing.Actually, it was an attempt to stall a marriage in the comics so that it would coincide with the one on ABC's The Adventures of Lois and Clarke. Sure, synchronizing those events argues for your point about money-grabbing, but it's also the sort of stunt comic writers get a kick out of, on par with Lee and Kirby being unable to attend the wedding of Reed Richards and Susan Storm.

And as sad as it is to use one character's death to delay a wedding, it's as much a geeky thing to do as it is an exploitative business decision. Actually, since this sort of event can hurt the property's reputation, the former seems more plausible than the latter. I believe it was a bit of both, but the former is still the more believable of the two.


I'm going to argue about Batman getting crippled.

I believe you make a good case for your argument. The only problem I have with the event is that the contrast between Bruce Wayne's recovery and Barbara Gordon's current state (the result of events that took place in a one-shot story, no less) carry some unfortunate implications.


Single worst comic moment...Rob Liefeld getting a job at Marvel.

I feel Peter David put this into perspective when he compared him to Ed Wood.

Nah, to my mind, the worst moment in comics history had to be the events leading up to Diamond Distributors' North American monopoly on direct market distribution of comic books.

[darkblade]

I believe you make a good case for your argument. The only problem I have with the event is that the contrast between Bruce Wayne's recovery and Barbara Gordon's current state (the result of events that took place in a one-shot story, no less) carry some unfortunate implications.


I always took it as meaning Barbra Gordon no longer wanted to be on the front lines of superhero stuff after she was shot as she was able to be more useful helping lesser heros like Black Canary and Huntress then following around someone like Batman. It made a more interesting character. Bruce's recovery was badly handled all around though.

[Dunesen]

Actually, it was an attempt to stall a marriage in the comics so that it would coincide with the one on ABC's The Adventures of Lois and Clarke. Sure, synchronizing those events argues for your point about money-grabbing, but it's also the sort of stunt comic writers get a kick out of, on par with Lee and Kirby being unable to attend the wedding of Reed Richards and Susan Storm.

And as sad as it is to use one character's death to delay a wedding, it's as much a geeky thing to do as it is an exploitative business decision. Actually, since this sort of event can hurt the property's reputation, the former seems more plausible than the latter. I believe it was a bit of both, but the former is still the more believable of the two.

1) I know the "death" of Superman was based on the TV show not wanting the comic character to get married. But it was handled so ineptly and in such a blatantly commercial fashion that I stand by what I said.

It was a multi-series crossover that had nothing more than an extended slugfest. Doomsday never spoke, aloud or internally, he had no motivation, no desire, no plan. There were no secondary plots, no moment of truth for a character, no heroic stand or outthinking the villain because there was no thinking. It was Superman and Doomsday throwing punches until they both dropped dead. The worst kind of stereotypical superhero plot imaginable.

And DC built it up as a major event, put out all the crossover issues and played it up in the media, driving both comic book fans and people that didn't even know stores specializing in comic books exist to buy up all the issues with the hopes that they would be worth a mint later on.

2) I also know Batman being crippled was a Take That to the grim and gritty fad, but again, it's a multi-series crossover built up as a major event before everything reverted to the status quo.

Both of them were business-minded un-events that put the money-making aspect ahead of good story-telling. And they were effective, people talked about them and sales were damn good. So now precedent was set for future events like that. It was a terrible event.

[Nevrmore]

1) I know the "death" of Superman was based on the TV show not wanting the comic character to get married. But it was handled so ineptly and in such a blatantly commercial fashion that I stand by what I said.

It was a multi-series crossover that had nothing more than an extended slugfest. Doomsday never spoke, aloud or internally, he had no motivation, no desire, no plan. There were no secondary plots, no moment of truth for a character, no heroic stand or outthinking the villain because there was no thinking. It was Superman and Doomsday throwing punches until they both dropped dead. The worst kind of stereotypical superhero plot imaginable.
The worst part is that the entire Justice League besides Superman is taken out in approximately .05 seconds. That annoyed me.

It was still balls-awesome to see Doomsday punch Supergirl's face off, though.

[Gavin Sage]

It was a multi-series crossover that had nothing more than an extended slugfest. Doomsday never spoke, aloud or internally, he had no motivation, no desire, no plan. There were no secondary plots, no moment of truth for a character, no heroic stand or outthinking the villain because there was no thinking. It was Superman and Doomsday throwing punches until they both dropped dead. The worst kind of stereotypical superhero plot imaginable.

Doomsday was much much better that way. Everything since has tried to give him 'depth' and its all a miserable pile of fail.

Supes getting taken out in a slug fest by a monster is an excellent way to kill him. It makes it about Superman dying first and foremost, not sharing any glory with the one that actually accomplishes this feat.

[Tirian]

Doomsday has never been much more than fail. Deciding that you're going to kill Superman is an exciting step, but giving the trophy to a complete newcomer whose sole ability is that his power level is OVER NINE THOUSAND!!! was, is, and always will be quite lame. Compare this with Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow, where the Pre-Crisis Superman went through a gantlet of his Rouge's Gallery before finally facing a mastermind who actually deserved to "destroy" him.

But I did like Hunter/Prey -- once they did come up with a backstory for Doomsday, it was a good tale. But every face-off since then has been doomed to anti-climax even when they try to amp it up by being Doomsay ... with Brainiac's mind! or an army of Doomsday clones!!!

[chiasaur11]

Doomsday has never been much more than fail. Deciding that you're going to kill Superman is an exciting step, but giving the trophy to a complete newcomer whose sole ability is that his power level is OVER NINE THOUSAND!!! was, is, and always will be quite lame. Compare this with Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow, where the Pre-Crisis Superman went through a gantlet of his Rouge's Gallery before finally facing a mastermind who actually deserved to "destroy" him.

But I did like Hunter/Prey -- once they did come up with a backstory for Doomsday, it was a good tale. But every face-off since then has been doomed to anti-climax even when they try to amp it up by being Doomsay ... with Brainiac's mind! or an army of Doomsday clones!!!

You know what'd be fun?

Doomsday villain decaying so much that Booster Gold takes down an army of him. At once.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It was a multi-series crossover that had nothing more than an extended slugfest. Doomsday never spoke, aloud or internally, he had no motivation, no desire, no plan. There were no secondary plots, no moment of truth for a character, no heroic stand or outthinking the villain because there was no thinking. It was Superman and Doomsday throwing punches until they both dropped dead. The worst kind of stereotypical superhero plot imaginable.

And DC built it up as a major event, put out all the crossover issues and played it up in the media, driving both comic book fans and people that didn't even know stores specializing in comic books exist to buy up all the issues with the hopes that they would be worth a mint later on.

Um...you do know that it was a three-part event, right? There was the Death of Superman*, the Reign of the Supermen, and the Return of Superman (or something).
The Reign introduced 4 new characters, all of whom are still around- Superboy (Ok, he's dead, but it's still a big deal), Steel (went on to get his own series and join the JLA), the Eradicator, and the Cyborg Superman (just appeared as a big baddie in the Sinestro Corps). It kept people guessing who was the real Superman and who was fake.
Then it was revealed that the Cyborg Superman was evil when he and Mongel wiped Coast City off the map, starting a chain of events leading to Hal's being possessed by Parallax and that whole thing.

*I also fully disagree with your dismissel of Doomsday. He is, in a way, everything Superman is not. Superman stands for law, order, justice, and and decency. Doomsday is the exact opposite- he's an agent of chaos who kills, and kills, and kills until there's nothing left. Superman + anti-Superman = mutual annihilation.

[IronBear]

I’m going to be showing my age here….But Secret Wars II (as if the original Secret Wars wasn’t bad enough) the worst moment in comic book history

Other contenders would be Marvel’s New Universe. Comics in real time and featuring “reality”….not kidding….reality. just reality with giant robots, aliens, random genetic mutations that give cool super powers …. You know….every day reality

The dismantling of the Justice League to feature only second stringer heroes. They move to the ghettos of Detroit and are joined by a teen age runaway, a fashion model and a break dancer. (this was about ten years after the break dancing fad died.)

The reintroduction of superman after his “death” with now un-super powers and new costume that just made people snicker

[Dunesen]

*I also fully disagree with your dismissel of Doomsday. He is, in a way, everything Superman is not. Superman stands for law, order, justice, and and decency. Doomsday is the exact opposite- he's an agent of chaos who kills, and kills, and kills until there's nothing left. Superman + anti-Superman = mutual annihilation.

Someone else already pointed out that Doomsday was introduced for the sole purpose of "killing" Superman. And the "death" wasn't required to introduce Superboy, Steel, or Cyborg Superman. Other storylines could have organically introduced each any of those characters and arguably given them more importance than as pieces of the "which one is Superman?" story.

[Ash Williams]

On a similar note, one of the worst moments in comics (mainly because it ruined DKR for me, which I had loved and re-read multiple times) was the part in DKR where

Batman shoots and kills a guy. Seriously, what? He's confronting some mutants who have kidnapped a baby, and he freaking shoots and kills one of them. It not only goes against the entire Batman mithos, it also takes away from the awesomeness that was the scene with the Joker later on.

It's strange; I've read that scene recently, and for a punk who just got shot, there's a surprising lack of bullet holes in his body. I always figured

Bruce shot the wall so close to the thug that he pissed himself and blacked out in terror. How can he fire shots that accurate? Because he's the goddam Batman.

[TheEmerged]

Somebody already mentioned this, but it bears repeating: the moment Rob Liefeld picked up a pencil.

[sealemon]

Remember that DC/Marvel crossover where Superman took on the Hulk, Batman took on Captain America, Wolverine fought Lobo, Flash took on Quicksilver and Wonder Woman fought Storm? That series was kinda crappy (The victories were by vote, so popular characters like Woilverine (sans adamantium skeleton, not like it would matter) beat Lobo....

But the sequel was a true low moment in comics, when members of the X Men (Cannonball, Iceman, Jean Grey when she didn't have the phoenix Force, Jubilee, Bishop, Storm and Cyclops not only beat the Jla (Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lanturn, Batman, Aquaman, and, yes, Superman), but pimp slapped them. It was a Mary Sue tale of multiple proportions, including my favorite scene...

Bishop beating Martian Manhunter up with punches.

[The Tygre]

Superdickery is the ultimate resource for comic stupidity. For example:

Superman Vs. Father's Day (http://superdickery.com/index.php?view=article&catid=28%3Asuperdickery&id=29%3Afathers-day&option=com_content&Itemid=24)

To make things worse, Jimmy Olsen is responsible for the introduction of Darkseid. Yes, that Darkseid. Ultimate evil Darkseid. The god Satan prays to at night in fear Darkseid.

Marvelous and miserable, ain't life?

As for my least favorite moment in comic history... Aquaman vs. Superman. I don't care if he's got a hook hand; Superman could still kick his ass.

[Robert_Frazer]

The Superdickery galleries aren't actual, physical, published, genuine comics, surely? I've always assumed them to be modern mock-ups drawn in a deliberately retro style...

[SteveMB]

The Superdickery galleries aren't actual, physical, published, genuine comics, surely? I've always assumed them to be modern mock-ups drawn in a deliberately retro style...

Nope; they're for real. I actually recall seeing a few of them.

[Hawriel]

The last three years in Marvel and DC univers plotlines. Also X-men and Batman only plotlines because they really effect the whole. I hate it all, and dropped most of the titles I buy because of them.

[Tirian]

The Superdickery galleries aren't actual, physical, published, genuine comics, surely? I've always assumed them to be modern mock-ups drawn in a deliberately retro style...

Quite real. And not as unrepresentative of the stories as you'd like to hope. The Golden Age Superman lived off in his own little moral world where toying with Lois Lane's affections or playing elaborate hoaxes on Jimmy were commonplace. And the way he treated Supergirl for the first ten years of her existence on Earth is beneath contempt. The Post-Crisis stuff is mostly taken out of context, either by the cover artist or the website's creator, but the covers are also real.

[bosssmiley]

Somebody already mentioned this, but it bears repeating: the moment Rob Liefeld picked up a pencil.

The worst day in comics history:

Marvel Commissioning Editor: "Let's give this Liefeld kid a job..." :smallamused:

[charl]

October 26, 1954.

The day the Comics Code Authority was founded.

[Dunesen]

October 26, 1954.

The day the Comics Code Authority was founded.

I would argue the publication of Seduction of the Innocent was worse, because it both led to the CCA and undoubtedly contributed to the idea that comic books are infantile. Not simply for kids, the way animation is, but a truly negative influence that only mentally deficient people enjoy.

I may be pinning too much on Wertham here, but he's like a patron saint of the Jack Thompsons and Parents Television Councils of today.

[kyrin]

Oh so many, but I'll go with a recent one that hasn't been mentioned yet:

Wolverine regenerating back from a *skeleton* in a *few minutes* after being blown up by Nitro. I nearly lost my lunch in my FLGS after reading that one.

JIM
aka kyrin

[Masked Jedi]

I have absolutely no love for Wertham or the CCA, but without them, superheroes would never had made a comeback.

He's still a bastard, though.

[Gavin Sage]

To make things worse, Jimmy Olsen is responsible for the introduction of Darkseid. Yes, that Darkseid. Ultimate evil Darkseid. The god Satan prays to at night in fear Darkseid.

Have you actually read the original Kirby Fourth World stuff?

Just saying that if you want to pick on the Hairies or Newsboy Legion or the some of the plots okay... but there's nothing wrong with Darkseid's short introduction in that book.

Considering the era involved there is nothing wrong with Jimmy Olsen under Kirby. Countdown and Death of the New Gods are FAR more excrutiable.

Darkseid introduced mysteriously in Jimmy Olsen's comic, no problem. Darkseid in the modern era fighting giant Turtle Boy after ample use of deus ex machina all to get to that point, much much much much worse.

[Yulian]

One. More. Day.

Marvel lost all my money with that enourmous slap in the face to readers.

Yes Peter, make a deal with Mephisto to save Aunt May! I'm sure she'll be fine with that, and with destroying your marriage to MJ, which she greatly approved of because seeing you happy gave her such joy.

She'd beat him senseless and lecture him at the same time.

The fact that it was purely editorially mandated and did not grow out of a storyline organically is worse...the fact that they screwed up so badly with Civil War by painting themselves into an secret ID corner so thoroughly that only a literal magical retcon could fix it is still worse.

- Yulian

[Dunesen]

One. More. Day.

Marvel lost all my money with that enourmous slap in the face to readers.

Yes Peter, make a deal with Mephisto to save Aunt May! I'm sure she'll be fine with that, and with destroying your marriage to MJ, which she greatly approved of because seeing you happy gave her such joy.

She'd beat him senseless and lecture him at the same time.

The fact that it was purely editorially mandated and did not grow out of a storyline organically is worse...the fact that they screwed up so badly with Civil War by painting themselves into an secret ID corner so thoroughly that only a literal magical retcon could fix it is still worse.

- Yulian

The reason One More Day happened is worse than how it happened. A bad story is one thing, but an editorial decision to insult your fanbase is beyond that.

[Ravens_cry]

I would argue the publication of Seduction of the Innocent was worse, because it both led to the CCA and undoubtedly contributed to the idea that comic books are infantile. Not simply for kids, the way animation is, but a truly negative influence that only mentally deficient people enjoy.

The statement in bold is at best arguable, and really down right wrong. The classic cartoons we know and love were meant for everybody, but really more for adults and teenagers originally. If the kiddies laughed, hey, added audience.
But does this (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=M6PcaDFchf0&feature=related) look like it was made for anyone not going through the throes of puberty or beyond?

[Dunesen]

The statement in bold is at best arguable, and really down right wrong. The classic cartoons we know and love were meant for everybody, but really more for adults and teenagers originally. If the kiddies laughed, hey, added audience.
But does this (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=M6PcaDFchf0&feature=related) look like it was made for anyone not going through the throes of puberty or beyond?

A) The "animation is for kids" belief is current, that's what I'm referring to, not the 30's and 40's cartoons I assume you're referring to.

B) I know the old Looney Tunes and early-early Disney cartoons featured stuff not just meant for the kids, but it wasn't like today's trend of including pop-culture references so the adults have something to laugh at.

There were different reasons for the older cartoons. Chuck Jones liked including hugh culture references, Disney had the anal fixation, and most of Disney's early animators were from the Midwest, so the cruder barnyard humor is what they knew.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, after the comic code became norm, the idea was for awhile that comics was for kids, at best. Yet many have shown otherwise since. We are getting off topic, I apologize.

[Dunesen]

Well, after the comic code became norm, the idea was for awhile that comics was for kids, at best. Yet many have shown otherwise since. We are getting off topic, I apologize.

No apology necessary. And while there's been undeniable attempts to make comics geared to all ages, but the attitude still has weight. Reference One More Day and the idea that readers can't relate to a married man with a steady job.

[Yulian]

Reference One More Day and the idea that readers can't relate to a married man with a steady job.

Well, as I said in the other thread on that, Joey Q. strikes me as a serious case of arrested development. I'm an adult, I like reading about other adults. I can cope with the fact that a superhero may get married or have a mature relationship with *gasp* an icky girl!

The market can bear diversified titles for different age groups. The Big Two have Adventures lines for the kids, which I think is great. But the majority of their readers are over 25 years old at least. I think DC does a great job at highly multi-generational casts. You have the old guard of the JSA upper echelon, you have the Trinity generation, you have their proteges, like the Titans, then you have the current batch of kids like Tim, Cassie, and Kara.

- Yulian

[Faramir]

The best/worst of what came to mind has already been mentioned, but I'll throw "Graduation Day" (the lead in to the Teen Titans and Outsiders series) into the mix.

[EvilJames]

A) The "animation is for kids" belief is current, that's what I'm referring to, not the 30's and 40's cartoons I assume you're referring to.

B) I know the old Looney Tunes and early-early Disney cartoons featured stuff not just meant for the kids, but it wasn't like today's trend of including pop-culture references so the adults have something to laugh at.

There were different reasons for the older cartoons. Chuck Jones liked including hugh culture references, Disney had the anal fixation, and most of Disney's early animators were from the Midwest, so the cruder barnyard humor is what they knew.

Cartoons have featured stuff for grown up audiences since their inception and continue to do so. The idea that cartoons are only for kids is fairly new idea but nonetheless an incorrect one (ie. The Flinstones was a primetime sitcom)


Back on topic The lowest moment in comics for me was when Leslie Thompson killed the Spoiler. Even Batman said it was out of character for her. The writer should have paid attaintion to the words he was having his characters say in my opinion. This was worst way for them to ruin a perfectly good character and there doesn't seem to be any reason for it it just came out of the blue.

[Tirian]

Back on topic The lowest moment in comics for me was when Leslie Thompson killed the Spoiler. Even Batman said it was out of character for her. The writer should have paid attaintion to the words he was having his characters say in my opinion. This was worst way for them to ruin a perfectly good character and there doesn't seem to be any reason for it it just came out of the blue.

I don't know if it would change your mind, but the death was faked. Leslie loved Stephanie so much that she was willing to become estranged from Bruce in order to get her out of the game. (I suppose it is possible that this is a retcon, but I doubt it; I believe that the entire thing was so awkwardly handled exactly because the readers were meant to believe that the whole story wasn't told in War Crimes.)

[Obscurejones]

In order that they come to me.

Dr Light is A RAPIST?
Grant Morrison writes a genocide of New York in X-men... that the Avengers, Doctor Strange, Spider-Man, Daredevil, NO ONE BUT THE X-MEN NOTICES!
World War Hulk's aftermath... all of it.
Actually every single thing Grant is doing to Batman also qualifies.

[EvilJames]

I don't know if it would change your mind, but the death was faked. Leslie loved Stephanie so much that she was willing to become estranged from Bruce in order to get her out of the game. (I suppose it is possible that this is a retcon, but I doubt it; I believe that the entire thing was so awkwardly handled exactly because the readers were meant to believe that the whole story wasn't told in War Crimes.)

Seems like a retcon, but that's fine the whole thing was so stupid and awkward it's best just forgotten. Since this means Leslie can come back, the story can move on and we can pretend it never happened. I'm willing to swallow the "worlds greatest detective" falling for something that stupid if it means that they didn't make the doctor do something so out of character and stupid that I stopped reading Batman for a while.

I liked most of Identity Crisis. I like it when DC focuses on their lesser known heroes and villains, expanding their personalities and showing why exactly they are villains and heroes. (Unlike Marvel who only drags out the lessers to mock and/or kill them in a humiliating fashion. Exception Hercules got a boost with Civil War, which was the only thing I thought particularly interesting about Civil War) However the end did seemed tacked on and didn't make any real sense, (they had even said in the story that the Atom's ex-wife had no interest in him anymore beyond friends and he still kinda did, so if she really wanted to get back with him all she had to do was ask)


Edit: About One more day. It's not so much that readers can't relate to a married man with a steady job as much as Marvel's leadership thinks we can't. I've grown up with Peter Parker married to Mary Jane. I related to it fine I understood through the cartoon that they weren't always that way but it certainly didn't affect my enjoyment of the comic. Peter Parker was a nerd married to a beautiful woman. Go nerds! Now go beat up the Scorpion.

[Tirian]

Seems like a retcon, but that's fine the whole thing was so stupid and awkward it's best just forgotten. Since this means Leslie can come back, the story can move on and we can pretend it never happened. I'm willing to swallow the "worlds greatest detective" falling for something that stupid if it means that they didn't make the doctor do something so out of character and stupid that I stopped reading Batman for a while.

When the dust settled, Batman suggested that he hadn't fallen for it, and it is not inconceivable. For instance, in a supreme act of super-richardry, Batman didn't give Stephanie a shrine in the Batcave because he said that she was never Robin (even though she was and he even specifically told her that on her "deathbed"). After Stephanie turned up again, his answer changed to "I didn't give her a shrine because I knew she wasn't dead." I assume he accepted the cover-up because he decided that she was better off outside his circle anyway.

Honestly, I don't know if it was a retcon or not. If it was, then good on it, because it is the only sensible resolution of the train wreck that was War Crimes.

[Yulian]

Dr Light is A RAPIST?


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/Coeloptera/drlightgonna.jpg



Grant Morrison writes a genocide of New York in X-men... that the Avengers, Doctor Strange, Spider-Man, Daredevil, NO ONE BUT THE X-MEN NOTICES!


Happens all the time. X-book have a strong tendency to happen almost in their own micro-continuity. I can't even remember if the Avengers ever fought Apocalypse.



World War Hulk's aftermath... all of it.


Getting the new book...may drop it soon. After Green Scar, Savage Hulk just isn't as compelling. Neither is Rulk. The Warbound are closeted away when they carry with them one of the most stunning developments in an old species we've ever seen...a rational, cooperative Brood. The ramifications are staggering...but unexplored.

- Yulian

[TheEmerged]

Cartoons have featured stuff for grown up audiences since their inception and continue to do so. The idea that cartoons are only for kids is fairly new idea but nonetheless an incorrect one (ie. The Flinstones was a primetime sitcom).

And how. You should see some of the innuendo in early Tex Avery & Bugs Bunny cartoons.

[Yulian]

And how. You should see some of the innuendo in early Tex Avery & Bugs Bunny cartoons.

Don't forget the awesomely vicious racist jibes in "Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips". Those don't have the excuse of it being an earlier time. Those were purposeful.

- Yulian

[Dunesen]

Don't forget the awesomely vicious racist jibes in "Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips". Those don't have the excuse of it being an earlier time. Those were purposeful.

- Yulian

Sure as hell not going to defend the racism, but I would like to point out the context that this was propoganda from WWII. Dehumanizing the enemy was standard operating procedure before Vietnam.

And even today some people still see it as viable.

[sun_tzu]

This ranks pretty high in terms of sights that offend the eye. :smalltongue:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ac/ArchiePunisher.jpg

I've read that issue. Not bad, honestly.

Also...Since everything mentioned so far involves American comic History...I'll throw in (or throw up :smallyuk:) the latest "Asterix" book. As a comic, it's mediocre. As an Asterix comic, it's blasphemously bad.

[WitchSlayer]

Worst moments in comic book history? Any time Frank Miller as written Superman OR any time Frank Miller has written in the past 10 years or so.

[charl]

I've read that issue. Not bad, honestly.

Also...Since everything mentioned so far involves American comic History...I'll throw in (or throw up :smallyuk:) the latest "Asterix" book. As a comic, it's mediocre. As an Asterix comic, it's blasphemously bad.

Three reasons:
1) European comics tend to, over all, hold a much higher quality than American ones. Subjective I'm sure, but there's is truth to that statement.
2) And when the Europeans do screw up, it's usually not too bad anyway. Plus the European market is more experimental than the American one (who knows how many comic makers in Europe have used the "it's avant-garde-experimental" excuse when they screw up?)
3) This board is mostly American, or at least Western. I'm sure the Japanese market has tons of screw ups, but we ignorant Westerners tend not to notice those comics, or even misunderstand the levels of "up screwing" and think "that's just how the Japs are."

[Grod_The_Giant]

Worst moments in comic book history? Any time Frank Miller as written Superman OR any time Frank Miller has written in the past 10 years or so.

QFT extrawords

[late for dinner]

Umm....to me the worst moment in comic book history is when they killed Captain America. Now, If he would have died fighting someone and they beat him fair and square that would have been different. But he was shot in the back. So Sad. He was my favorite comic book hero ever.

Second worst: When Superman came back to life. Man I hate Superman.

[WitchSlayer]

Why DO you hate Superman, anyway?

[late for dinner]

You, know...I used to like him, but now that I watch him and everything I really start to think about Superheros and the definition. He is pretty much, other than the kryptonite thing and a little magic, is unstoppable. To me, being a hero means that you look fear in the eye and you go at it because you care about the people. Superman cares about the people but he really has nothing to fear because nothing can really stop him. But that day that Doomsday stopped him and he died, I had a lot of respect for him because he fought to save lives and gave his. thus, he fell into my definition of "Hero" I probably should not have used the word Hate...maybe dislike would have been a better word. His powers are cool though that is for sure.

[igorayres]

He is pretty much, other than the kryptonite thing and a little magic, is unstoppable. To me, being a hero means that you look fear in the eye and you go at it because you care about the people. Superman cares about the people but he really has nothing to fear because nothing can really stop him.

Actually, there are other ways to stop the man of steel, as Alan Moore showed on the classic "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?". And that was the overpowered silver age supes.
Also, at the Superman reboot made by John Byrne in the 80´s, when superman goes after Batman (an outlaw at the time) Batman manages to become untouchable, as he used a hidden bomb that would kill an innocent person if supes approached him (later he reveals that the bomb was hidden in his belt, not smart IMHO. Could´ve been the end of his career LOL).

[charl]

Actually, there are other ways to stop the man of steel, as Alan Moore showed on the classic "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?". And that was the overpowered silver age supes.
Also, at the Superman reboot made by John Byrne in the 80´s, when superman goes after Batman (an outlaw at the time) Batman manages to become untouchable, as he used a hidden bomb that would kill an innocent person if supes approached him (later he reveals that the bomb was hidden in his belt, not smart IMHO. Could´ve been the end of his career LOL).

And of Superman's. Think about it, Superman is told that if he touches a guy, an innocent person will automatically die. Superman does it anyway, and the touched man explodes.

Knowing Superman's character, he would probably find himself catatonic for at least a few months by the experience.

Thus, Batman wins. Again.

[late for dinner]

I have pretty much decided that Batman Beats everybody. He is the Royal Flush of Heros...they made him so dang smart.

[Selrahc]

Umm....to me the worst moment in comic book history is when they killed Captain America. Now, If he would have died fighting someone and they beat him fair and square that would have been different. But he was shot in the back. So Sad. He was my favorite comic book hero ever.

He was shot in the back by one of his biggest enemies, at the order of his arch rival. And only because he was saving someone. And even that didn't get him, since he only died when his super spy girlfriend was hypnotised into shooting him by another of his enemies, as part of an overarching conspiracy which has only recently been finally defeated. I'd say that was fairly epic, and more interesting than a fight scene.

[Tirian]

Also, at the Superman reboot made by John Byrne in the 80´s, when superman goes after Batman (an outlaw at the time) Batman manages to become untouchable, as he used a hidden bomb that would kill an innocent person if supes approached him (later he reveals that the bomb was hidden in his belt, not smart IMHO. Could´ve been the end of his career LOL).

It was a smart move actually. If I remember the order of The Man of Steel correctly, Superman had just had benevolent industrialist Lex Luthor arrested, so Batman had no reason to be secure for his own prospects, although he could count on Superman's nobility toward the innocent. And he felt that he had to create an actual threat because as far as he knew Superman had the ability to tell if someone was lying.

[WitchSlayer]

Late for Dinner, I suggest you check out the Up Up and Away trade. It has Clark depowered and still facing down threats. It is one of my favorite Superman books of all time.

[Steinkügeln]

This is pretty much the worst IMO:

Marvel hires Mark Millar.

The anti-Christ of the comics world.

[Mr.Bookworm]

This is pretty much the worst IMO:

Marvel hires Mark Millar.

The anti-Christ of the comics world.

:smallconfused:

Everything I've read by Millar has been decent to excellent.

I just read Red Son this morning, and it was really good.

[WitchSlayer]

Millar's Red Son was good, but his really good Superman works was on Superman Adventures or whatever it was called. But he has gotten worse over the years.

[Cheesegear]

Umm....to me the worst moment in comic book history is when they killed Captain America. Now, If he would have died fighting someone and they beat him fair and square that would have been different. But he was shot in the back. So Sad. He was my favorite comic book hero ever.

I always thought that was the point. Captain America, arguably Marvel's Superman (Not in terms of power; In terms of 'everyone loves him'. The superhero other superheroes go to when they need help), doesn't go out with a bang. I think, that while he death his very sad (yeah, I'm Australian too...), it was a very good story-telling technique.

The main problem I have, is that the new Cappy (Bucky) carries a gun.

[kpenguin]

The main problem I have, is that the new Cappy (Bucky) carries a gun.

I believe Steve carried a sidearm too, back in in his WWII days.

[Cheesegear]

I believe Steve carried a sidearm too, back in in his WWII days.

This is true. However;


Cribbed from Wikipedia
To that end, Rogers is given a uniform modeled after the American flag (based on Rogers's own sketches) a bulletproof shield, a personal side arm, and the codename Captain America.
...
The alloy is indestructible, yet the shield is light enough to use as a discus-like weapon that can be angled to return to him. It proves so effective that Captain America forgoes the sidearm.

So, Cap (Steve) went for what? Almost 50 years without carrying a gun. So, I don't associate with Cap having a gun. I was okay with Bucky being the Winter Soldier, that was cool stuff. But, when you take the mantle of Cappy, you've got to step up.

In my mind, unless you're just a tad crazy or your background calls for it (like a certain Mr. F Castle), heroes shouldn't use guns (they just shouldn't have to). Which, to me, just reinforces the fact that Bucky will never be Steve.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You, know...I used to like him, but now that I watch him and everything I really start to think about Superheros and the definition. He is pretty much, other than the kryptonite thing and a little magic, is unstoppable. To me, being a hero means that you look fear in the eye and you go at it because you care about the people. Superman cares about the people but he really has nothing to fear because nothing can really stop him. But that day that Doomsday stopped him and he died, I had a lot of respect for him because he fought to save lives and gave his. thus, he fell into my definition of "Hero" I probably should not have used the word Hate...maybe dislike would have been a better word. His powers are cool though that is for sure.

Sure, Superman is a very powerful hero, but in the DCU there are a fair number who can go hand-to-hand with him. He's not the silver age god-powered ******* anymore.
And if you think his power prevents him from being truly heroic, I suggest you look more closely. What he did with Doomsday? He would do it any time, any place.

[Hzurr]

In my mind, unless you're just a tad crazy or your background calls for it (like a certain Mr. F Castle), heroes shouldn't use guns (they just shouldn't have to). Which, to me, just reinforces the fact that Bucky will never be Steve.


Isn't that kind of the point? We don't want Bucky to be Steve. If you do that, then it's like those people who play d&d, and when their character dies they bring back one who looks and acts exactly the same, even though it's technically a "different" character.

Bucky isn't Steve. He's a different kind of Captain America, and whether that's a good or a bad thing will eventually be determined. He isn't a replacement for Steve, he's a sucessor to Steve, which is a very different thing. If they suddenly made him Steve_2.0, I'd be banging my head against a wall, because what was the point of killing off Cap in the first place if you're just going to make a clone to fill in for him? Cap had a great death, which had a good, lasting impact on the Marvel Universe (until they ressurect him through some convoluted way in about 5 years).

[Cheesegear]

Isn't that kind of the point? We don't want Bucky to be Steve. If you do that, then it's like those people who play d&d, and when their character dies they bring back one who looks and acts exactly the same, even though it's technically a "different" character.

Bucky isn't Steve. He's a different kind of Captain America, and whether that's a good or a bad thing will eventually be determined. He isn't a replacement for Steve, he's a sucessor to Steve, which is a very different thing. If they suddenly made him Steve_2.0, I'd be banging my head against a wall, because what was the point of killing off Cap in the first place if you're just going to make a clone to fill in for him? Cap had a great death, which had a good, lasting impact on the Marvel Universe (until they ressurect him through some convoluted way in about 5 years).

I know what you're saying. I guess I haven't explained what I think very well. I agree 100% that Cap's death is one of the Best. Deaths. Ever. (Right up in there with Barry Allen) I think to replace him is well...Sad. Sure, Bucky can take the Shield, he can look like Cappy.
The fact was, that even after Barry died; Flash was still Flash. Regardless of who the 'civvie' was under the mask.

But, my problem is that he is who we get to replace Steve. It's almost insulting that Steve is replaced by Bucky as Captain America. Bucky isn't CA.

Bucky is fine as a character. I like him. I really do. Just don't let him be Captain America. I'm fine with U.S.Agent, he looks like Cappy and everything, but he isn't Captain America.

Everything's in the name.

[Atreyu the Masked LLama]

I agree that Spoiler's death was one of the most out of character things I've seen. Thank Chuck Dixon for the save on Leslie.

Also, Avengers Disassembled was utterly terrible in my eyes. The deaths didn't make any sense and were not even good shock value. They seemed horribly forced.

I'm very discouraged by Rocket Raccoon in Annihilation and Guardians. He's not the same character he was back in the Hulk or his mini-series. He's made no mention of his beloved wife or his trademark rocket skates. Its not the worst moment by any means, but its a low point.

[Jack_Banzai]

Bucky is fine as a character. I like him. I really do. Just don't let him be Captain America. I'm fine with U.S.Agent, he looks like Cappy and everything, but he isn't Captain America.

Everything's in the name.

Am I the only one who hopes that Jack Flag regains the use of his legs and becomes the new Captain America? Bucky just ain't it. He's been compromised, brainwashed, he carries a gun, etc. Jack Flag proved himself a pretty handy guy against the Thunderbolts. Well. Right up until Bullseye showed up. God, I hate Bullseye. I wish he would fall into a plot hole and never come out.

[archon_huskie]

I think that enough people in this thread have negated the Bucky carries a gun for it to still be a valid complaint.

[Ravens_cry]

Worst moments of comic history?
When someone decided big hairy man-apes with ammo belts, overcompensationaly engorged guns, pouches, stupid hair cuts, lots of pouches, gratuitous pointless violence, broken spine Barbie woman with no internal organs, still more pouches, was automatically 'deep'.

[charl]

Ultimate Captain America carries a gun. Once he used a flame-thrower on ultimate Thor.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ultimate Captain America carries a gun. Once he used a flame-thrower on ultimate Thor.

Considering the overall tone of the Ultimate Universe, and the fact that he just came from WW2, I think that Cap's weaponry can be excused. He needs to stop moping about how times have changed, though.

Ultimate Thor is not Thor. I'm sorry. Thor is, to me, the guy with long hair and a big red cape. The guy who speaks in old English while throwing down with evil gods. One of the few characters (Doom is another) who not only can get away with hideous over-the-top dialogue, but need it.

[Ravens_cry]

Decided for the sake of argument to see what Ultimate Thor looked like.

***
<snerk>
<chuckle>
<laugh>
<belly laugh>
<cough>
<belly laugh>
<weeze>

He looks like a pro wrestler who put pasties over his supernumerary nipples, outside his shirt.
Plus some giant ones over his regular man-nipples.

And carries a hammer.

This is supposed to represent the God of Thunder? Wilder of Mjolnir, Destroyer of Giants?

[FoE]

I can sum up one of the worst moments in Wolverine's history with three words:

STOP RAPING ME!

[Ravens_cry]

I can sum up one of the worst moments in Wolverine's history with three words:

STOP RAPING ME!
Do I want to know what happened ?
Actually, Gods help me, yes, yes I do.

[Ashes]

Decided for the sake of argument to see what Ultimate Thor looked like.

***
<snerk>
<chuckle>
<laugh>
<belly laugh>
<cough>
<belly laugh>
<weeze>

He looks like a pro wrestler who put pasties over his supernumerary nipples, outside his shirt.
Plus some giant ones over his regular man-nipples.

And carries a hammer.

This is supposed to represent the God of Thunder? Wilder of Mjolnir, Destroyer of Giants?

Ultimate Thor is so much cooler than that ridiculous excuse for a Thunder God of 616 continuity. Seriously, I hate the regular Thor so much. What kind of getup is that? Is that supposed to be viking-like? How would people dressed like that ever have done anything remotely similar to the military conquest of the vikings?
Of course, the new costume isn't perfect, but at least they gave him a frickin' beard. No Norse God with any respect for himself would be beardless. Ever.

[FoE]

Do I want to know what happened ?
Actually, Gods help me, yes, yes I do.

It's just Wolverine angsting over everyone screwing with his head.

"Get out! No more Fury! No more S.H.I.E.L.D.! No more Hydra with the hands. No more."

"Stop rapin me, all of you!"

"STOP RAPING ME!"

[Ravens_cry]

Ultimate Thor is so much cooler than that ridiculous excuse for a Thunder God of 616 continuity. Seriously, I hate the regular Thor so much. What kind of getup is that? Is that supposed to be viking-like? How would people dressed like that ever have done anything remotely similar to the military conquest of the vikings?
Of course, the new costume isn't perfect, but at least they gave him a frickin' beard. No Norse God with any respect for himself would be beardless. Ever.
So now he looks like the new Aquaman. Only with pasties. And blue.
No self respecting hero looks like a guy who's chief power is talking to fish.
Of course regular Thor has the pasties as well.

[charl]

So now he looks like the new Aquaman. Only with pasties. And blue.
No self respecting hero looks like a guy who's chief power is talking to fish.
Of course regular Thor has the pasties as well.

Ultimate Thor's costume looks (apart from fairly stupid I have to admit) futuristic. Regular Thor looks like an overenthusiastic fantasy fan cosplaying as his favourite DnD character Gronax the Barbarian.
I prefer Ultimate Thor in that regard. Plus in Ultimates 3 he speaks Olde English (or at least tries) and his hammer looks more like the 616 counterpart.

Don't diss the Aquaman.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ultimate Thor is so much cooler than that ridiculous excuse for a Thunder God of 616 continuity. Seriously, I hate the regular Thor so much. What kind of getup is that? Is that supposed to be viking-like? How would people dressed like that ever have done anything remotely similar to the military conquest of the vikings?
Of course, the new costume isn't perfect, but at least they gave him a frickin' beard. No Norse God with any respect for himself would be beardless. Ever.

The beard is good, I'll admit.

The old Thor didn't look like a viking, true, but neither did the rest of his bunch. They were all drawn Jack Kirby-style. And, when well drawn, it was a badass super-hero costume.

[Cheesegear]

Am I the only one who hopes that Jack Flag regains the use of his legs and becomes the new Captain America? Bucky just ain't it. He's been compromised, brainwashed, he carries a gun, etc. Jack Flag proved himself a pretty handy guy against the Thunderbolts. Well. Right up until Bullseye showed up. God, I hate Bullseye. I wish he would fall into a plot hole and never come out.

...I will then postulate that Bullseye recovering from a broken neck is one of the worst moments in comicland. Along with Wolverine regenerating from nothing.

And I would love to see Jack fight Bucky.
"Dude, seriously. What the Hell? Give me that shield..."

[charl]

...I will then postulate that Bullseye recovering from a broken neck is one of the worst moments in comicland.

I don't think Bullseye is actually human. Apart from his impossible throwing skills he is supposed to have some of his bones, including the spinal column, reinforced with strips of adamantium. It has previously been stated that adamantium is toxic to the human body, and the only reason to why Wolverine can walk around with adamantium bones is because his regeneration powers counteracts the toxicity.

So Bullseye pretty much has to have a healing factor for some reason, albeit a weaker one compared to Wolverine. He is obviously not a mutant (he doesn't show up as one on Cerebra), so it's probably from a lab accident/alien abduction/magic/whatever. Or maybe his secondary mutation is invisibility from Cerebra.

So whatever.

About Wolverine, I don't find it any more farfetched that he can regenerate from just adamantium bone than any of his other regenerations. Seriously the amount of nutriants he would need to regenerate the wounds he take seemingly daily... I've never seen him eat nearly enough to make up for it. His power just works like that. He regenerates. From everything.

[Cheesegear]

I don't think Bullseye is actually human. Apart from his impossible throwing skills he is supposed to have some of his bones, including the spinal column, reinforced with strips of adamantium.

/sigh. Marvel's go-to metal strikes again. Although the healing factor is a bit of a stretch. Although it is possible, now that he might have nanobots or some crap in his system.
...That's kind of annoying, how almost every character (and possibly his little dog too) has a healing factor.


About Wolverine, I don't find it any more farfetched that he can regenerate from just adamantium bone than any of his other regenerations. Seriously the amount of nutriants he would need to regenerate the wounds he take seemingly daily... I've never seen him eat nearly enough to make up for it. His power just works like that. He regenerates. From everything.

Which is really annoying.

Seriously, G-d Damn. If they can kill off Sabretooth (which is another contender for 'worst moment'), they can kill off Wolverine.

[Ravens_cry]

I was reading a reprint collection of X-Men and a Wolverine bot designed to be exactly alike him in every way had its throat cut by Mystique, and that 'killed' it as Wolverine wouldn't be able to heal fast enough.
Now look what he can do. Kind of crazy, eh?

[sun_tzu]

Three reasons:
1) European comics tend to, over all, hold a much higher quality than American ones. Subjective I'm sure, but there's is truth to that statement.
2) And when the Europeans do screw up, it's usually not too bad anyway. Plus the European market is more experimental than the American one (who knows how many comic makers in Europe have used the "it's avant-garde-experimental" excuse when they screw up?)
3) This board is mostly American, or at least Western. I'm sure the Japanese market has tons of screw ups, but we ignorant Westerners tend not to notice those comics, or even misunderstand the levels of "up screwing" and think "that's just how the Japs are."

Well, I've read some truly awful comics here in France...
...it's just that the really bad ones don't get translated and exported.

[Jack_Banzai]

...I will then postulate that Bullseye recovering from a broken neck is one of the worst moments in comicland. Along with Wolverine regenerating from nothing.

And I would love to see Jack fight Bucky.
"Dude, seriously. What the Hell? Give me that shield..."

Jack Flag would OWN Bucky. Hopefully find a way to use his own bionic arm against him, somehow.

[Gundato]

Ultimate Captain America carries a gun. Once he used a flame-thrower on ultimate Thor.

Dude, look at pretty much every one of the original Captain America comics. Cap had a gun (on the cover at least).

Ultimate Cap (or Captain Bucky) having a gun isn't a new thing.

And, if I recall correctly, when his shield was broken he used an energy shield that could fire projectiles (and he DID fire them a few times).

[Jack_Banzai]

Dude, look at pretty much every one of the original Captain America comics. Cap had a gun (on the cover at least).

Ultimate Cap (or Captain Bucky) having a gun isn't a new thing.

And, if I recall correctly, when his shield was broken he used an energy shield that could fire projectiles (and he DID fire them a few times).

Bucky still sucks. I'm sorry.

[Gundato]

Bucky still sucks. I'm sorry.

I dunno. I like Captain Bucky, but I am generally pretty good at trying to see the characters as the writers want them to be portrayed.

If the transition to Captain Bucky had been longer (maybe a few months of the various potentials acting as Cap, but not being Cap), it would have been better. That would have let him transition into the role and be a logical progression. Or better yet, make him become Cap in an act of heroism (I dunno, write some way that the Red Skull would be thrown off guard by Captain Bucky or something).

[Yulian]

About Wolverine, I don't find it any more farfetched that he can regenerate from just adamantium bone than any of his other regenerations. Seriously the amount of nutriants he would need to regenerate the wounds he take seemingly daily... I've never seen him eat nearly enough to make up for it. His power just works like that. He regenerates. From everything.

You know a friend once told me he saw some issue where Logan was trapped under a glacier for a few weeks so he just ate his own arm over and over.

Even by comic standards that is gloriously retarded.

- Yulian

[Jack_Banzai]

I dunno. I like Captain Bucky, but I am generally pretty good at trying to see the characters as the writers want them to be portrayed.

If the transition to Captain Bucky had been longer (maybe a few months of the various potentials acting as Cap, but not being Cap), it would have been better. That would have let him transition into the role and be a logical progression. Or better yet, make him become Cap in an act of heroism (I dunno, write some way that the Red Skull would be thrown off guard by Captain Bucky or something).

Here is the thing about Bucky - he is the last bastion of Iron Age heroes left in the Marvel mainstream. Even Wolverine and Cable have been reworked to make them seem a little more three-dimensional - but Bucky? Really? A gun-toting, harder-edged, more 'extreme' Captain America? With the requisite bionic left arm, no less? Please.

[Gundato]

Here is the thing about Bucky - he is the last bastion of Iron Age heroes left in the Marvel mainstream. Even Wolverine and Cable have been reworked to make them seem a little more three-dimensional - but Bucky? Really? A gun-toting, harder-edged, more 'extreme' Captain America? With the requisite bionic left arm, no less? Please.

So should they retcon Bucky so that he magically regrows the arm that they blew away when they made him into The Winter Soldier? If anything, they have gone out of their way to play it down (outside of letting him use the shield).

And are you honestly saying that Wolverine is more three-dimensional at this point? :p

[Cheesegear]

And are you honestly saying that Wolverine is more three-dimensional at this point? :p

I think killing off Sabretooth was one of the worst things the writers could've done for Wolverine. About two-thirds of Wolverine's character involves Sabretooth - somehow.

Killing Sabretooth also means that adamantium-laced super-healers can be killed. At yet, Wolverine is still around. I still think Omega Red should rip him in half.

Of course, Wolverine would come back from that...Somehow.

[Atreyu the Masked LLama]

/sigh. Marvel's go-to metal strikes again. Although the healing factor is a bit of a stretch. Although it is possible, now that he might have nanobots or some crap in his system.]

If you're referring to Thunderbolts, then yes, it is the nanites that allowed him to heal.

I thought Wolverine's ability to regenerate from anything was based not on his healing factor, but on his ability to defeat Azreal (some sort of god of death) in combat anytime he would die, that allows him to recover from injuries that would kill even someone with a healing factor.

P.S. Sabretooth will be back by 2010.

[Gundato]

If you're referring to Thunderbolts, then yes, it is the nanites that allowed him to heal.

I thought Wolverine's ability to regenerate from anything was based not on his healing factor, but on his ability to defeat Azreal (some sort of god of death) in combat anytime he would die, that allows him to recover from injuries that would kill even someone with a healing factor.

P.S. Sabretooth will be back by 2010.

From what I understand, apparently Wolvie has the healing factor. But if he ever actually dies (so pretty much every time he appears in a comic book :p), he has to fight with Death (well, maybe not Death, but one of her helpers) for the right to live.

I much prefer Deadpool's approach to immortality: Thanos doesn't want Wade to get it on with his lady.

[HealthKit]

Name something from Final Crisis.

Well, except Rage of the Red Lanterns maybe, but other than that it's pretty bad.

[charl]

I'm sure it's been mentioned, but One More Day or whatever. Just as Spiderman started getting some genuinely new and imo interesting story, Joe Quesada decided that it would be better to turn the clock back to the 70s.

Also, Stephen Colbert losing to Barack Obama in the Marvel universe election of 2008. That made me sad. I would have loved seeing president Colbert yelling at Iron Man for not doing enough about those crazy liberal superheros running around. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: I feel like I should remind people that this has nothing to do about real politics, so don't go and break forum rules by posting about it. You already know this, but a friendly reminder is never a bad thing.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm sure it's been mentioned, but One More Day or whatever. Just as Spiderman started getting some genuinely new and imo interesting story, Joe Quesada decided that it would be better to turn the clock back to the 70s.

Also, Stephen Colbert losing to Barack Obama in the Marvel universe election of 2008. That made me sad. I would have loved seeing president Colbert yelling at Iron Man for not doing enough about those crazy liberal superheros running around. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: I feel like I should remind people that this has nothing to do about real politics, so don't go and break forum rules by posting about it. You already know this, but a friendly reminder is never a bad thing.


I just watched his last episode where he mentioned that - I didn't know anything about the whole thing, so I was in hysterics...:smallbiggrin::smallcool:

[WitchSlayer]

Name something from Final Crisis.

Well, except Rage of the Red Lanterns maybe, but other than that it's pretty bad.

Actually, I disagree.
The main event itself started out kinda meh but now its getting better, and all of the tie-ins are nothing short of amazing.

[Jack_Banzai]

So should they retcon Bucky so that he magically regrows the arm that they blew away when they made him into The Winter Soldier? If anything, they have gone out of their way to play it down (outside of letting him use the shield).

And are you honestly saying that Wolverine is more three-dimensional at this point? :p

No. I say that they just get rid of Bucky entirely, or leave him as the Winter Soldier. I don't want them to regrow anything, just excise him.

And no, I don't... but they tried, they tried! :P

[Foeofthelance]

And are you honestly saying that Wolverine is more three-dimensional at this point? :p

I'd say closer to two and a half. The X-books are putting him back into the role of team tank, especially with X-Force being allowed to go for kills. The writers seem to be more willing to let him settle into the "Ok, I'm a homicidal berserker, but I can live with this as long as I get to pick who's pulling the trigger" mindset, which is actually a pretty good one. "Old Man Logan" is still milking the last of the angst from him, but other than that? Bonus points for forcing Xavier to relive one of the mental rapes to show how much good was accomplished by some of those. It might be odd, but I do see letting him just become a rough guy more real.

As for killing Sabretooth...about damn time! Seriously, the guy who runs around slaughtering mooks left and right sits at home every year waiting for another person to make his life miserable? With all that Logan put up with, I'm surprised he didn't do it sooner. The same with hunting down Mystique to settle past debts. With the kind of history Logan "enjoys" it makes sense that every once in a while he goes for closure. I'll reserve judgement on "Origins" until the end of "Original Sin". But at least the blade makes Logan killable as well.


And look on the bright side. Whether they intended it or not, we know at least one version of Wolverine is a Skrull. How else could he be in San Francisco and the Savage Land at the same time during Secret Invasion? 3:1 its the Avengers who have the bogus Logan.

[Cheesegear]

As for killing Sabretooth...about damn time! Seriously, the guy who runs around slaughtering mooks left and right sits at home every year waiting for another person to make his life miserable? With all that Logan put up with, I'm surprised he didn't do it sooner.

You make me sad :smallfrown:. I like/d Sabretooth. At least he served as a sort of 'Anti-Wolverine'.


But at least the blade makes Logan killable as well.

IIRC; Omega Red should be able to rip him in half without even trying due to his Life-Sucking and Carbondium-ness. Although good ol' OR hasn't been written in a while. And the writers would - of course - bring Logan back from that.


3:1 its the Avengers who have the bogus Logan.

Heh, is it bad if the first time I read that, I thought I read Bonus Logan? I don't like the Avengers much (except for Sentry, he doesn't count).

[charl]

Heh, is it bad if the first time I read that, I thought I read Bonus Logan? I don't like the Avengers much (except for Sentry, he doesn't count).

Of course it's the illegal Avengers that has Wolverine... which makes no sense really since Wolverine is a member of the X-men and thus registered as a mutant anyway. Why the Initiative hasn't arrested him for aiding fugitives by now is a mystery... on the other hand no one probably wants to try.

Anyway, the Sentry kicks ass.

[Cheesegear]

Why the Initiative hasn't arrested him for aiding fugitives by now is a mystery... on the other hand no one probably wants to try.

Anyway, the Sentry kicks ass.

Did you forget? Sentry already beat Wolverine...

Oooh...And the Initiative can hire known Mob Boss and hitman Omega Red to take down Wolverine (fake or not)...Yay!

[charl]

Did you forget? Sentry already beat Wolverine...

Oooh...And the Initiative can hire known Mob Boss and hitman Omega Red to take down Wolverine (fake or not)...Yay!

It isn't the taking down that's the problem, it's what you do with him once you have him in custody. You could imprison him, but he has a tendency to escape, and then kill his captors brutally. You could theoretically kill him, but the only weapon capable of doing this is kept by Cyclops (unless I'm mistaken) and he and the X-men have a strange love for Wolverine and wouldn't want him dead, and probably revenge his death if you manage to.

It's easier to just leave him alone.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Now, I don't really want to start an argument about this, but it seems to me that an attempt to kill Wolverine could go something like this:
Super-strong guy- "Hey, Logan, your bones are unbreakable, right?"
Wolverine- "...Yeah..."
SSG- "Are your tendons?"
W- "...no..."
SSG- <dislocates the joints and rips Wolverine's arms off>

[Foeofthelance]

I think part of the problem is that simply tearing limbs off of Wolverine isn't enough to kill him. It's canon that at one point the Hulk simply tore him in half, and all he had to do was pull himself back together and it healed over. Don't know if he regrows the limbs or if it would just keep leaking or what.

Effectively the only way to kill him by lopping off limbs would be to lop off his head and stick it in a box (Xavier's plan). The Murasama blade will also sever the soul from the body, pretty much killing him. Might be able to severely overload his healing factor for a time rendering him "dead", but that just seems to be temporary. And then there's old age.

[charl]

I think part of the problem is that simply tearing limbs off of Wolverine isn't enough to kill him. It's canon that at one point the Hulk simply tore him in half, and all he had to do was pull himself back together and it healed over. Don't know if he regrows the limbs or if it would just keep leaking or what.

Effectively the only way to kill him by lopping off limbs would be to lop off his head and stick it in a box (Xavier's plan). The Murasama blade will also sever the soul from the body, pretty much killing him. Might be able to severely overload his healing factor for a time rendering him "dead", but that just seems to be temporary. And then there's old age.

Throwing him into the sun should do it. Adamantium is indestructible, but it can't be THAT indestructible.

[HolderofSecrets]

I wonder why so many ppl complain about wolverine being effectively immortal when absolutely no body in comics ever stays dead. Either you get a clone or someone else to pickup the Name or they come from an alternate reality or they just comeback from the dead some how. I wish a lot of ppl would stay dead in the comics but someone always brings the character back. Whats worse is that the next galactic continuity reset will probably bring back Sabertooth and Captain America and a long list of liked characters that have died recently. Now if Aunt May ends up dead again and nobody brings back anyone between now and then maybe I will believe that there is hope that in Marvel comics that some people remain dead at least rarely.

[Gundato]

I wonder why so many ppl complain about wolverine being effectively immortal when absolutely no body in comics ever stays dead. Either you get a clone or someone else to pickup the Name or they come from an alternate reality or they just comeback from the dead some how. I wish a lot of ppl would stay dead in the comics but someone always brings the character back. Whats worse is that the next galactic continuity reset will probably bring back Sabertooth and Captain America and a long list of liked characters that have died recently. Now if Aunt May ends up dead again and nobody brings back anyone between now and then maybe I will believe that there is hope that in Marvel comics that some people remain dead at least rarely.

It is a case of throwing it in our face. When Spider-Man gets the crap beat out of him, we feel like he is suffering. We know he'll heal up, but it happens rare enough (every two or three issues), so we don't mind.

When Wolverine used to get beat up, it was cool to see him heal. Now? It seems like the writers for Wolvie didn't realize that Deadpool was a parody, and are instead trying to do as much damage to Wolvie as possible. They are throwing his immortality in our faces, thus hurting the suspension of disbelief.

[Jack_Banzai]

I would like to see Wolverine get entrapped in a bottomless void dimension. Enjoy immortality, sucker.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Did you forget? Sentry already beat Wolverine...

A rematch could go differantly if Wolverine changed his tactics.


I think part of the problem is that simply tearing limbs off of Wolverine isn't enough to kill him. It's canon that at one point the Hulk simply tore him in half, and all he had to do was pull himself back together and it healed over. Don't know if he regrows the limbs or if it would just keep leaking or what.

That was Ultimate Wolverine. Differant continuity.

[Lord Zentei]

As for killing Sabretooth...about damn time! Seriously, the guy who runs around slaughtering mooks left and right sits at home every year waiting for another person to make his life miserable? With all that Logan put up with, I'm surprised he didn't do it sooner. The same with hunting down Mystique to settle past debts. With the kind of history Logan "enjoys" it makes sense that every once in a while he goes for closure. I'll reserve judgement on "Origins" until the end of "Original Sin". But at least the blade makes Logan killable as well.

Damn, I need to get the Sabretooth episode, I loved "Get Mystique". Writers will far too often simply go for that status quo cash cow.

Sadly, I suspect both of them will be back in some form or other.

[Foeofthelance]

Throwing him into the sun should do it. Adamantium is indestructible, but it can't be THAT indestructible.

That would probably do it as well. I know it nearly happened once, but Jean Grey pulled them out of it before he got cooked past well done.


That was Ultimate Wolverine. Differant continuity.

Really? I've seen recent books outside the Ultimate line which reference it. I'll look through them when I slog through the packing boxes tomorrow, see which issues it might have been in.

EDIT:


I wonder why so many ppl complain about wolverine being effectively immortal when absolutely no body in comics ever stays dead. Either you get a clone or someone else to pickup the Name or they come from an alternate reality or they just comeback from the dead some how. I wish a lot of ppl would stay dead in the comics but someone always brings the character back. Whats worse is that the next galactic continuity reset will probably bring back Sabertooth and Captain America and a long list of liked characters that have died recently. Now if Aunt May ends up dead again and nobody brings back anyone between now and then maybe I will believe that there is hope that in Marvel comics that some people remain dead at least rarely.

I'm gonna say less lack of disbelief (If anything happens often enough in canon, I'm sure fans will believe it as true), so much as lack of narrative tension. If Wolverine can't be killed, Wolverine can't be defeated, which means the only reason left to read the books is to watch him angst and deal with angsting. One of the reasons Sabretooth was popular as a match up was because he couldn't be defeated either. It was an eternal stuggle that made Wolverine miserable, and that helped define the character. The more invincible they make him, the less interesting he becomes as a character, and the more farfetched they have to become to make him more so. (Think the whole "Fighting against the Angel of Death to come back to Life arc).

[Yulian]

You could imprison him, but he has a tendency to escape, and then kill his captors brutally.

Well...that never stopped people from putting Venom in the Vault. Every time he escaped he kept killing guards.

Hell, the British government (in Excalibur) managed to keep Juggernaut imprisoned for a while until Vixen freed him. This was the full-bore Cyttorak-powered Juggs. I'm sure they could manage Logan.

- Yulian

[charl]

Well...that never stopped people from putting Venom in the Vault. Every time he escaped he kept killing guards.

Hell, the British government (in Excalibur) managed to keep Juggernaut imprisoned for a while until Vixen freed him. This was the full-bore Cyttorak-powered Juggs. I'm sure they could manage Logan.

- Yulian

Obviously the Brits could do it. The American government probably wouldn't. :smallbiggrin:

[Finn Solomon]

Isn't it impossible to rip off Wolverine's head, because his adamantium neck bones get in the way?

[MattR]

Isn't it impossible to rip off Wolverine's head, because his adamantium neck bones get in the way?

Unless he has adamantium intervertebral discs (making his spine inflexible) It shouldnt be impossible to pull his head off.

Infact unless his skeleton is one fused mass it should be possible to rip of various bits of his anatomy e.g. his arm (heard of a dislocated shoulder?). Theyd probably grow back but would no longer be adamantium.

[charl]

Unless he has adamantium intervertebral discs (making his spine inflexible) It shouldnt be impossible to pull his head off.

Infact unless his skeleton is one fused mass it should be possible to rip of various bits of his anatomy e.g. his arm (heard of a dislocated shoulder?). Theyd probably grow back but would no longer be adamantium.

I think the canonical explanation is that 616 Wolverine has artificial adamantium joints (yes, that's retarded) so he can't be ripped apart, while Ultimate Wolverine works like you wrote above so he can be ripped to pieces, except his body parts doesn't grow back for some reason. He has to find the ripped off body part and put it back.

[Lord Zentei]

Damn, I need to get the Sabretooth episode, I loved "Get Mystique". Writers will far too often simply go for that status quo cash cow.

Sadly, I suspect both of them will be back in some form or other.

:smallsigh: So I looked up her article on wikipedia and found this:


Manifest Destiny

Mystique shows up again, posing as Bobby Drake's ex-girlfriend Opal Tanaka. It is not explained how she survived her battle with Wolverine. She sets off a bomb inside of Bobby's Blackbird before shooting him and kicking him out of the plane.[issue # needed]

Damn, that was faster than expected. No rest for the wicked it seems. Can anyone confirm this?

[Foeofthelance]

X-Men: Manifest Destiny, #1/5

[Cheesegear]

If Wolverine can't be killed, Wolverine can't be defeated, which means the only reason left to read the books is to watch him angst and deal with angsting. One of the reasons Sabretooth was popular as a match up was because he couldn't be defeated either. It was an eternal stuggle that made Wolverine miserable, and that helped define the character.

Which is why I was upset when they killed him off. Without Sabes in the ring, Wolverine has no character - at all. On top of that, Sabes is a character all on his own. A pretty decent one, anyway.

Wolverine has adamantium protecting his joints (or, at least 'pinning' his longbones together). So, no, Wolverine can not be ripped in half. And I'm pretty sure adamantium can't cut more adamantium (I think?). So, if you tried cutting off Wolvie's head, your blade would just get stuck at the spine. And we all know that Wolverine can come back from being a skeleton.

In Sabe's Wikipedia entry, it specifically states;
Unlike Wolverine, Sabretooth does not have adamantium connective tissues in his joints and wrists, only adamantium bones.

And then mentions that Wolverine cut off Sabe's hands at the wrists.
(Booooo!)

However, there's no such mention of Wolvie having adamantium ligaments/tendons on his Wikipedia page...Interesting.

[leo_neil316]

While the new daniel way run of deadpool is pretty good in and of itself (which after the travesty that was deadpool in wolverine origins is nice) I'd kind of like to know where the hell the boy thinks it fits in the the rest of it all?

I mean. At the end of Cable/Deadpool Wade was an accepted member of new yorks superhero community, or at least tolerated and expected to be helping out. Surrounded by his friends. More mentally stable than he'd ever been and for once seeming to actually manage to stick with one path. Finally.

In Deadpool volume 2 he's alone, broke, hallucinating (something he only ever did in wolverine origins, just after suffering a sever mental breakdown/mindrape at the end of Dead Reckoning and when Cable -deliberately- started making him hallucinate) and seems to be suffering from multiple personality disorder.

wtf?