Designated Antagonists

[Sam]

I was looking at the trailer for "Damnation" on ign, and something struck me- I wanted to root for the guys who were supposed to be the villians.
http://pc.ign.com/dor/objects/14239395/damnation/videos/Damnation_080608.html

The game is supposed to be set in the late 1800s, and the villians were competant to give their troops gas masks, full body covering and semi-automatic rifles! That is competancy. And they want to unify the country by killing every one in their way. I'm sure there will be a bunch of kick the dogs to make them evil, but anyway...

Is there any other cases where you have sided with the people who were supposed to be the bad guys, NOT because they were cool, but because you thought they were the good guys?

[warty goblin]

I sort of sided with Saren in Mass Effect. I mean really, guy's got a point, this war is probably not winnable, so perhaps a couple hundred years of endenturement is better.

[Cubey]

Competent isn't necessarily good, but let's not get into nitpicky details and stick into the thread's point instead.

I always rooted for Tom. Jerry is a pest, and pest removal is what cats do! Way to go Hanna-Barbera, teach the kids that hunting for rodents is bad. *golfclap*

[Jayngfet]

Competent isn't necessarily good, but let's not get into nitpicky details and stick into the thread's point instead.

I always rooted for Tom. Jerry is a pest, and pest removal is what cats do! Way to go Hanna-Barbera, teach the kids that hunting for rodents is bad. *golfclap*

Particularly bad since Jerry starts it more often than not and makes Tom suffer for it(sometimes shooting at him).

[SurlySeraph]

The antagonist in every Adam Sandler movie I've seen. Which is at least 3 more movies than I would like to have seen.

[Cristo Meyers]

Particularly bad since Jerry starts it more often than not and makes Tom suffer for it(sometimes shooting at him).

Don't forget the episode where Jerry actually got Tom beheaded...

[Lord Iames Osari]

I sort of sided with Saren in Mass Effect. I mean really, guy's got a point, this war is probably not winnable, so perhaps a couple hundred years of endenturement is better.

If you read the tie-in novel, it really destroys pretty much all sympathy you might have for Saren. He was a Grade-A, 100% pure heartless a-hole douche before Sovereign ever got to him.

[kamikasei]

They were just a one-episode antagonist, but I thought the Soul Hunters in Babylon 5 were much more sympathetic than the Minbari opposing them.

[Ascension]

Although I don't necessarily side with the Sith, the Jedi are often hidebound pricks, particularly during the Mandalorian Wars.

It could also be argued that the Rebels' antagonism was what drove the Empire to tyranny. If the populous hadn't rebelled, they wouldn't have had to crack down, but as it was, they couldn't maintain order throughout their massive jurisdiction without going a little overboard.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Although I don't necessarily side with the Sith, the Jedi are often hidebound pricks, particularly during the Mandalorian Wars.

They also turned out to be right though. Which just makes them more annoying.


It could also be argued that the Rebels' antagonism was what drove the Empire to tyranny. If the populous hadn't rebelled, they wouldn't have had to crack down, but as it was, they couldn't maintain order throughout their massive jurisdiction without going a little overboard.

That would make great propagander but the Rebel Alliance isn't started properly until the Empire has been around for at least 15 years.

[thegurullamen]

I sided with the zombies in "28 Weeks Later". I didn't want to, but those stupid damn kids needed to be purged. What the hell, breaking an Army imposed quarantine on the greatest-disease-ridden area in the history of the world for no damn reason?!!

Yeah, death by zombie would have been too good for them.

I also sided with every single criminal on those "World's Greatest Police" whatever shows because that narrator is so damn smug. When one of them got away through careful planning instead of running like an idiot, I celebrated.

[Tirian]

I believe that Mojo Jojo would rule Townsville better than the puppets of the Powerpuff Girls-backed regime.

And let's just get real for a moment. Is there anyone who believes that Johnny won the fiddle contest in The Devil Went Down to Georgia?

[Oregano]

I sided with Stuntman Mike at the end of Deathproof, sure he was a sick, perverted sociopath but he was wimpering and he actually seemed sorry and terrified, it also helped they were terrible actresses and he was freakin' Kurt Russell. He's just so much human than them.

[Drascin]

Competent isn't necessarily good, but let's not get into nitpicky details and stick into the thread's point instead.

I always rooted for Tom. Jerry is a pest, and pest removal is what cats do! Way to go Hanna-Barbera, teach the kids that hunting for rodents is bad. *golfclap*

Yeah. Tom is more often than not hunting Jerry out of a sense of duty - hunting rodents is his supposed job - or because Jerry screwed him over.

Also, I personally always sided with Wile Coyote. The guy was inventive and smart, and a lot of his inventions were most intelligent, but the bird had the power of the Deus ex Machina on his side, so the impossible kept happening just to screw Coyote over.

[Ascension]

That would make great propagander but the Rebel Alliance isn't started properly until the Empire has been around for at least 15 years.

Sure, but what evidence do we have that they were an oppressive regime prior to the appearance of the Rebel Alliance? Don't count the first five years or so, the start of a regime change is always a bit turbulent, but what about that next ten years, between the probable establishment of order and the rise of the revolutionaries?

[TheElfLord]

They also turned out to be right though. Which just makes them more annoying.


I think Reven turned out to be right. Though he may have done evil things, he always had a larger plan based on the big picture of the Republic's future. While outside books may have addressed this, based on the game's at least I think we don't have enough information for the final conclusion of whether Reven or the Council were right.

[Emperor Ing]

in HL2, I can understand Dr. Breen's point of view. You can't hope to defeat a multiverse-faring hostile faction all by yourself. He apparently is trying to vouch for humanity not to utterly annihilate them.

[Mewtarthio]

Sure, but what evidence do we have that they were an oppressive regime prior to the appearance of the Rebel Alliance? Don't count the first five years or so, the start of a regime change is always a bit turbulent, but what about that next ten years, between the probable establishment of order and the rise of the revolutionaries?

Um... The Empire kicked off its new regime with a Stalinesque purge of the Jedi. That's not exactly what you'd expect from an enlightened Philosopher-King. Not to mention the fact that he replaced the usual representative government with a totalitarian state in which the ultimate position of power is given to whomever successfully backstabs the current Emperor (which is SOP for the Sith), so even if Palpatine genuinely wanted to to Good, he's setting things up so that the world's only one lightsaber stroke away from sadistic oppression.

[Helanna]

I side with the Empire in the Eragon books. I just like the (very easy-to-make) interpretation of the Varden being a terrorist organisation. If the King (of the Empire - How does that work out?) isn't a Designated Antagonist, who is?

[Closet_Skeleton]

I think Reven turned out to be right. Though he may have done evil things, he always had a larger plan based on the big picture of the Republic's future. While outside books may have addressed this, based on the game's at least I think we don't have enough information for the final conclusion of whether Reven or the Council were right.

The Jedi Council said "don't go fight in the Mandalorian wars, you might fall to the dark side".

Guess what happened.

[Mewtarthio]

Oh, yeah, and in Isaac Asimov's Foundation and Earth, I sided with the anti-Galaxia point of view. Which is not represented by a single person except Trevize's occasional doubts (which are themselves shown more as a Devil's Advocate kind of thing). Ever heard that adage about trading fundamental liberty for a little security? How about trading the free will of every being in the entire galaxy for protection from the extragalactic enemies that are not proven to exist and in fact have no evidence whatsoever that even hints they *might* exist beyond the "it's a really big universe" thought experiment but, hey, why take the risk?

No, I'm not exaggerating. That's honestly what happens. That and a bunch of Strawman arguments about how individualism will cause us all to become homocidal hermaphrodites and how being against global hegemony means that we're isolationists who will kill all trespassers. Did I mention I hated that book?

[thegurullamen]

Oh, yeah, and in Isaac Asimov's Foundation and Earth, I sided with the anti-Galaxia point of view. Which is not represented by a single person except Trevize's occasional doubts (which are themselves shown more as a Devil's Advocate kind of thing). Ever heard that adage about trading fundamental liberty for a little security? How about trading the free will of every being in the entire galaxy for protection from the extragalactic enemies that are not proven to exist and in fact have no evidence whatsoever that even hints they *might* exist beyond the "it's a really big universe" thought experiment but, hey, why take the risk?

No, I'm not exaggerating. That's honestly what happens. That and a bunch of Strawman arguments about how individualism will cause us all to become homocidal hermaphrodites and how being against global hegemony means that we're isolationists who will kill all trespassers. Did I mention I hated that book?

I have to read the book now, because from what I understand of it, it's less about controlling individual free will and more about influencing widespread behavior, sort of like applied sociology or what today's media would be if they had more insight into historical events. Widespread influence, not mind control.

but, as I have not read the books, I could be mistaken. TO THE LIBRARY!!!

[thegurullamen]

Um... The Empire kicked off its new regime with a Stalinesque purge of the Jedi. That's not exactly what you'd expect from an enlightened Philosopher-King. Not to mention the fact that he replaced the usual representative government with a totalitarian state in which the ultimate position of power is given to whomever successfully backstabs the current Emperor (which is SOP for the Sith), so even if Palpatine genuinely wanted to to Good, he's setting things up so that the world's only one lightsaber stroke away from sadistic oppression.

The purge could be interpreted as a necessary purge of a rogue faction of political activists who sought control of the republipire themselves. Sure they're the good guys, but when has that ever stopped the corruption of power? Besides, that said faction was made up entirely of people who not only disliked his views on politics/the force, but saw him as a murderous traitor and would kill him on the spot (look at old Mace), he was acting in self-defense, both individually and as a protector of the republipire. If the Jedi had had their way, the political leader of the galaxy would have fallen and justice would have been served (MAYBE!), but as a result, faith in the republipire would have crumbled to a point that far surpassed pre-PM days and the entire galactic network would have fallen apart, leading to more wars, famine, etc.

Palpatine saved the galaxy. Then he went senile and tried to kill everybody. But before that, he was a good guy.

[Ascension]

Um... The Empire kicked off its new regime with a Stalinesque purge of the Jedi. That's not exactly what you'd expect from an enlightened Philosopher-King. Not to mention the fact that he replaced the usual representative government with a totalitarian state in which the ultimate position of power is given to whomever successfully backstabs the current Emperor (which is SOP for the Sith), so even if Palpatine genuinely wanted to to Good, he's setting things up so that the world's only one lightsaber stroke away from sadistic oppression.

While I agree the tactics employed were underhanded, the Jedi and their focus on ancient traditions were holding the galaxy back from progress. The Old Republic was corrupt and inefficient, particularly in comparison with the streamlined Empire. The Senate was also still in existence, and I'm sure that political reforms could have been gradually and peacefully reintroduced. The people didn't know that Palpatine was Sith, and indeed he seems less Sithlike than the majority of his predecessors. Vader was even less like a traditional Sith. Had Vader been able to win Luke over to his side, a relatively stable hereditary Skywalker dynasty could have been established. If the Rebels, rather than actually taking up arms, had staged peaceful protests against the Empire's more oppressive policies, great strides could have been made towards galactic peace.

[/devil's advocate]

[Mewtarthio]

I have to read the book now, because from what I understand of it, it's less about controlling individual free will and more about influencing widespread behavior, sort of like applied sociology or what today's media would be if they had more insight into historical events. Widespread influence, not mind control.

but, as I have not read the books, I could be mistaken. TO THE LIBRARY!!!

You're half-right. The original Foundation novel is about Hari Seldon's psychohistory, which involves "widespread influence," as you described it. Foundation and Empire introduces mind control, albeit solely as a "villain power." Foundation's Edge introduces Gaia:
a planet in which everyone is telepathically connected as part of a single gestalt being. Their ultimate goal is to assimilate the entire galaxy into their mind, dubbing the new being "Galaxia." And I mean the entire galaxy: Every single atom of it will be placed under Galaxia's control. The novel Foundation and Earth is essentially one giant Socratic dialogue explaining why these people are the good guys.

In fact, I reccomend you just stop reading after Second Foundation. In addition to Gaia, Foundation and Earth contains a nasty retcon about one of the villains.

[Zarah]

I think Reven turned out to be right. Though he may have done evil things, he always had a larger plan based on the big picture of the Republic's future. While outside books may have addressed this, based on the game's at least I think we don't have enough information for the final conclusion of whether Reven or the Council were right.

I feel obligated so jump in here, being that I love this period of SW history to death and back. Anyway, I tend to disagree on that point. Especially with the information you're given in KotORII, it's made pretty clear that if the Jedi hadn't intervened, the Republic would have been screwed. They waited too long to deal with the threat in the first place, and when they did react, they had too much to defend at once, and had to spread their forces too thin to be effective. Mandalore walked all over them again and again. If the Council had their way, then the Mandalorians almost certainly would have won.

Granted, they might have gone to action if it got serious enough, and maybe they could have saved the Republic too, but I don't think so. It might not be clear as to whether or not the Council was ultimately "right," but I don't think there's any doubt that what Revan did was right.


The Jedi Council said "don't go fight in the Mandalorian wars, you might fall to the dark side".

Guess what happened.

This is where it gets fuzzy, but it still doesn't mean that the act of going to war was wrong or that the Council was right. Sure, Revan fell to the dark side, but when you look at it, the war was more of a means for him to learn about the Star Forge and ultimately fall. Besides, it's not like he was a perfect, upstanding Jedi before the war either.

The rest of the Jedi followed him, since he was all they knew. They treated him like the best master they had ever had, so when he fell, they unknowingly followed. And don't forgot about the exile, who didn't fall to the dark side at all. She might have come close, but ultimately came back to answer for herself. And the council exiled her. The Council was simply... not very smart.

[Amiria]

The purge could be interpreted as a necessary purge of a rogue faction of political activists who sought control of the republipire themselves. Sure they're the good guys, but when has that ever stopped the corruption of power? Besides, that said faction was made up entirely of people who not only disliked his views on politics/the force, but saw him as a murderous traitor and would kill him on the spot (look at old Mace), he was acting in self-defense, both individually and as a protector of the republipire. If the Jedi had had their way, the political leader of the galaxy would have fallen and justice would have been served (MAYBE!), but as a result, faith in the republipire would have crumbled to a point that far surpassed pre-PM days and the entire galactic network would have fallen apart, leading to more wars, famine, etc.

Palpatine saved the galaxy. Then he went senile and tried to kill everybody. But before that, he was a good guy.

At the very start of his regime (as early as 19 BBY) he also did the following things: reintroducing/legalizing slavery, building the Death Star and other military projects with a massive ammount of slave labour (often physically stong races like Wookies, Yuzzem, and Nazren but also some races that were brilliant scientists; some of them where declared non-sentient to make their enlavement easier to understand for the public), introducing/supporting humanocentric speciesism (COMPNOR), restricting the rights (or at least the career opportunities) for women ... etc. The Ghorman Massacre (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ghorman_Massacre) (and probably many similar acts) was also very early during Palapatine's reign.

[FoE]

I side with villains all the time, but my top pick is Skeletor. I also rage over the indignities visited on Wile E. Coyote and Sylvester.

[thegurullamen]

At the very start of his regime (as early as 19 BBY) he also did the following things: reintroducing/legalizing slavery, building the Death Star and other military projects with a massive ammount of slave labour (often physically stong races like Wookies, Yuzzem, and Nazren but also some races that were brilliant scientists; some of them where declared non-sentient to make their enlavement easier to understand for the public), introducing/supporting humanocentric speciesism (COMPNOR), restricting the rights (or at least the career opportunities) for women ... etc.

Bah. Mere bad publicity drummed up by malcontents and rebel scum. Slavery was always legal (or was Anakin actually free the whole time? If so, it's horrible that Watto convinced him and his mom of the opposite. He' kind of a jerk if it was illegal. :-D/:-P) And turning captured opponents into slaves is what empires do. It's their MO (whatever that means; I heard it on a movie.) It's good policy if your goal is to preserve your empire's infrastructure; you not only get some free slave labor (haha), you have the benefit of significantly weakening a culture whose ideals oppose your own, thus weakening a potential pool of more enemies. Double win there and all it costs are some minor inconveniences, one of which can be smoothed out with some good PR. As for sexism and specieism...um...they deserved it?

Come on, Pally was totally good! Can't we just let him rest in peace?

[Ascension]

At the very start of his regime (as early as 19 BBY) he also did the following things: reintroducing/legalizing slavery, building the Death Star and other military projects with a massive ammount of slave labour (often physically stong races like Wookies, Yuzzem, and Nazren but also some races that were brilliant scientists; some of them where declared non-sentient to make their enlavement easier to understand for the public), introducing/supporting humanocentric speciesism (COMPNOR), restricting the rights (or at least the career opportunities) for women ... etc. The Ghorman Massacre (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ghorman_Massacre) (and probably many similar acts) was also very early during Palapatine's reign.

I admit the EU makes them look a lot worse. On the slavery issue, though, didn't they say in Ep. I about Anakin that it was legal at that point in time, too?

[Mewtarthio]

As I recall, Tatooine was on the Outer Rim, so the Republic had essentially zero influence there. Heck, they wouldn't even take Republic currency.

[Amiria]

As I recall, Tatooine was on the Outer Rim, so the Republic had essentially zero influence there. Heck, they wouldn't even take Republic currency.

Right, on the Outer Rim the Republic didn't have the power to stop the illegal slavery. During the Empire slavery was legalized, you could have slaves on Imperial Center.

[black dragoon]

Alright first off does anyone know of Asimov's book The green Brain?
Second, how many actually were rooting for the bugs to take back at least South America and China?

Third is anyone interested in a Pokemon D20 Conversion and if so would you be willing to help.(just PM me) Drascin your're exempt from that third statement I know your position on the manner.


P.S. sorry about the shameless recruiting but we need help!

[Stupendous_Man]

Why is Glabatrox the bad guy again?

[black dragoon]

O.o Who?
They called the original entity just, well, the green brain partly because it was a massive once human brain being well...I really have no idea how you would describe it beyond saying it was an insect elder brain minus the whole eating your mind thing.

[Revanmal]

Why is Glabatrox the bad guy again?

Because the almighty Paolini and the "noble" Varden-terrorists say so to the perspective character. We never really get to see another side of them.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The Jedi Council said "don't go fight in the Mandalorian wars, you might fall to the dark side".

Guess what happened.Revan fell to the Dark Side saving the galaxy from the Mandalorians. Then he tried to take over the Galaxy to save it from the True Sith. When that didn't work, the Jedi Council mindraped him into doing their bidding. When he found out about this, he [canon] forgave them, saved the Galaxy from his puppy-kicking apprentice, and then went on a personal quest to save the Galaxy from the True Sith, since he realized that taking over it would just cause more problems.

Revan broke a hell of a lot of eggs, but he did make his omelet in the end.

[kamikasei]

I still maintain that Revan jumped, or at least strode boldly downward.

[Nerd-o-rama]

He became evil for the sake of the greater good. Probably completely knowingly. Fortunately, in canon, he later realizes the error of his ways...after being mindraped by the Jedi and getting over it.

How about that?

[Ozymandias]

Possibly my favorite part of KotOR 2 was that people could be total bastards and manipulate the hell out of everybody and still do more total good than the extremely naive. I always pictured Revan as a sort of nigh-omniscient figure, one who intended everything every step of the way, including the mindwipe, if only because it makes the dichotomy with the Exile so perfect.

[Totally Guy]

Very obscure british cartoon called the deamstone had a group of designated antagonists called the Urpneys. Their master was non-cartoony and threatening but the poor urpneys were the ones that always suffered at the hands of the good guys, the bad guys and some kind of twisted "you're a villain!" karma. Actually the joke was that the big bad and this " in a cartoon karma" were always getting them beaten up and it was the assumption that the good guys were just as bad that got them into that mess every time.

[averagejoe]

It's their MO (whatever that means; I heard it on a movie.)

Modus Operandi, or, mode of operation.

Goblins, and other such races in general. Besides the whole "evil race" thing being stupid, they're rarely given actual reasons for being evil. I'm picking on DnD in particular, just because I don't have a very wide knowledge of such things.

[Zarah]

He became evil for the sake of the greater good. Probably completely knowingly. Fortunately, in canon, he later realizes the error of his ways...after being mindraped by the Jedi and getting over it.

How about that?

I'd agree with that. Revan did what he had to do for, as you say, the greater good. And I think it would have dawned on him sooner or later that he was taking the path of the dark side, but he knew that there was no going back. He couldn't go back to the council after what he had done, so he did what his only real choice was. He took matters into his own hands.

[SurlySeraph]

Goblins, and other such races in general. Besides the whole "evil race" thing being stupid, they're rarely given actual reasons for being evil. I'm picking on DnD in particular, just because I don't have a very wide knowledge of such things.

Simple. You know that you can kill goblins because they're evil, and you know that they're evil because they're goblins.

[kamikasei]

How about that?

I approve this message.

[warty goblin]

If you read the tie-in novel, it really destroys pretty much all sympathy you might have for Saren. He was a Grade-A, 100% pure heartless a-hole douche before Sovereign ever got to him.

Oh I didn't say he wasn't a scumbag, because he clearly is. That however has no bearing on him being right about the Reapers. Sheperd was all gung-ho kill this kill that, but Saren actually (arguably) bothered to step back and look at the situation, see if fighting made any sense.

Also as of book four I'm rather on the Lannister's side in Song of Ice and Fire. Not because I like them, but because they are so much better than the alternative of yet another massive civil war.

[thegurullamen]

I support the orcs and half-orcs of D&D (Check out the PrC contest entry in homebrews.) It's partially because they're the underdogs (what's with the orc LA and half-orc mods???) and partially because they make no sense, necessitating a rewrite of the entire culture/race. I mean, their entire MO (thanks averagejoe) was that they beat stuff up and somehow, a culture formed around these chaotic thugs. Yawn. Now they suck less. In fact they rock. Go me.

Also, and I am a little ashamed of even knowing about this, but the Nick teen show Drake and Josh. I support anyone that does them harm. Why? Because they're idiots who let their easily-handled little sister make their lives miserable. FOR NO REASON. That said, I also side with anyone set against that little brat, who must be the true protagonist. After all, she gets away with everything from minor pranks to federal crimes without so much as a hand slap and in fact, passes on her karmic debt to her brothers who have shown her nothing but a long-tempered care and protection (however misguided.) I think the entire series is a big Take That at love and family.

[hanzo66]

I remember watching that Kids Next Door show as a kid and I usually thought that the kids were just annoying little brats fighting for the right to be horrible little buggers. I remember an episode where they fight a Batman Dentist guy where they say that their teeth should be rotten and cavity-filled rather than clean. Generally anything that doesn't represent childish joy and immaturity seems to be cast off as "Evil" or something. Then again that might be part of the joke.

[averagejoe]

Simple. You know that you can kill goblins because they're evil, and you know that they're evil because they're goblins.

Right, but there isn't actually anything that makes them evil besides being goblins.


It's partially because they're the underdogs

That's probably true for me as well. It's probably also why I dislike elves, tieflings, dragonoids (or whatever they're called) and the like.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Palpatine saved the galaxy. Then he went senile and tried to kill everybody. But before that, he was a good guy.

What part of him being evil incarnate and completely imoral did you miss in the fact that he started a war with millions of casualties just to increase his job security?


Possibly my favorite part of KotOR 2 was that people could be total bastards and manipulate the hell out of everybody and still do more total good than the extremely naive.

Except for the protagonist who can only be a thug.

[Texas_Ben]

Um... The Empire kicked off its new regime with a Stalinesque purge of the Jedi. That's not exactly what you'd expect from an enlightened Philosopher-King. Not to mention the fact that he replaced the usual representative government with a totalitarian state in which the ultimate position of power is given to whomever successfully backstabs the current Emperor (which is SOP for the Sith), so even if Palpatine genuinely wanted to to Good, he's setting things up so that the world's only one lightsaber stroke away from sadistic oppression.
The Jedi had spent a couple thousand years stomping out Sith whenever they found them, so it's really tit-for-tat on your first point.

And as to the representative government, That wasn't completely dissolved until the beginning of the first movie (Episode IV)... granted, it probrably had little to no power, but it would have kept the masses placated.

[freerangetroll]

The Lizards from Harry Turtledove's World War series.

[Closet_Skeleton]

He became evil for the sake of the greater good.

The problem with this is that it implies the Dark Side is stronger, which goes against the whole idea of Star Wars.

Which isn't a problem with KotOR 1 but rather a mess created by Obsidian trying to fit moral ambiguity into a fairy tale and only succeeding in turning a cool character into a Gary Stu.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I didn't say he was right in turning to the Dark Side. He did it for the greater good, but maybe there was a better way.

And my original point was agreeing that he remains way more sympathetic than his contemporary Jedi.

[thegurullamen]

What part of him being evil incarnate and completely imoral did you miss in the fact that he started a war with millions of casualties just to increase his job security?

Are we sure that's why he did it? For all we know, he was preparing the galaxy for the Yuuzan Vong invasion and got carried away towards the end. How do we know he isn't just a kindly old man with the power to appear evil in order to make the death-of-a-sith-lord an easier task for Vader to accomplish later, thus ending the force imbalance, creating a power vacuum for the morally upright new republic (much stronger than the last patch!) to fill and dealing with the YV all in one fell death. I mean, he was far too powerful to have not seen his own death/any MAJOR GALACTIC EVENTS coming, so, seeing that they were inevitable, he did the only proper thing: he continues his Magnificent bastardry and saved the day millennium. I say go Pally.

[SurlySeraph]

The Lizards from Harry Turtledove's World War series.

*twitches*

I am going to try to avoid going on a rant. Suffice it to say that pretty much every character that survived till the end of the series should have been killed off and pretty much every character that died should have survived.

[Mewtarthio]

The problem with this is that it implies the Dark Side is stronger, which goes against the whole idea of Star Wars.

Which isn't a problem with KotOR 1 but rather a mess created by Obsidian trying to fit moral ambiguity into a fairy tale and only succeeding in turning a cool character into a Gary Stu.

Bear in mind, however, that Revan would have failed had it not been for his "redemption." By turning to the teachings of the Sith, he set himself up for his own betrayal at Malak's hands. Malak didn't care about the greater good and simply ruled by terror. That's the whole problem with tyrrany: Sure, you can work for the greater good more efficiently, but your successor could just undo everything on a whim.

[Kato]

It's diffcult in the western world, but... I have something for some of the 'world saving by killing humanity' guys in anime. As Gundam's Char or Master Asia. Or X's Earth Dragons. Maybe also FF XII's team evil, which's goal is killing the gods to make humanity shape their own destiny. Oh, or YuGiOh's Maximillian Pegasus, who (at least originally) just wanted to bring back his dead wife... but I didn't side with them that much. More Yeah, there is dirty work to be done, and sometimes you have to use drastic actions to get them done.

[freerangetroll]

*twitches*

I am going to try to avoid going on a rant. Suffice it to say that pretty much every character that survived till the end of the series should have been killed off and pretty much every character that died should have survived.

PM the rant or start another thread on it. I kind of feel the same way. Most of the humans aside from Yeager ticked me off (I believe I read a rant of yours about the Yeager/Scientist plotline, which while I agree somewhat... Sam became a much more sympathetic character as the original series ended and the Colonization series progressed.).

[black dragoon]

Who hear didn't end up rooting for Ozymandias in the watchmen?
As for Saren I really don't think that it's reasonable to assume the reapers were going to let anything sentient survive. Look at the protheans they were utterly wiped out. A genocide like that doesn't say that "we also keep slaves guys" to me. Agreed if you're a gundam villain( with some minor exceptions) you normally are pretty well meaning, and yeah team evil in FFXII really had a pretty good idea it just was being carried out in a rather jearkass manner.

[TeeEl]

PM the rant or start another thread on it.

Can we have a thread? I guess I don't really see it as you do, but I'm interested in reading it anyhow. Mostly I seem to recall an awful lot of neutral guys and not a lot of bad guys and even fewer good guys. Although I always thought the somewhat arbitrary nature of Turtledove's character deaths was a nice point; it's always nice reading a war novel where the lists of survivors and casualties are not conveniently karma-coded.

[warty goblin]

Who hear didn't end up rooting for Ozymandias in the watchmen?
As for Saren I really don't think that it's reasonable to assume the reapers were going to let anything sentient survive. Look at the protheans they were utterly wiped out. A genocide like that doesn't say that "we also keep slaves guys" to me. Agreed if you're a gundam villain( with some minor exceptions) you normally are pretty well meaning, and yeah team evil in FFXII really had a pretty good idea it just was being carried out in a rather jearkass manner.

They let the Keepers live for at least several cycles, and also all life that was below using advanced technology. It is a gamble yes, but let's face it, so is trying to destroy the most technologically advanced species in the known universe who have folded up countless empires before yours and know all of your abilities because they in essence designed your technology.

[black dragoon]

Weren't the keepers there to ensure they could get through like sovereign? I swear they were designed for that task...yeah I guess I'd rather go in a fight to the bitter end...we did kill one though...:smallamused:

[Jayngfet]

The problem with the jedi is they assume anyone else with a lightsaber is a sith.

Remember how they killed the jensari unprovoked.

Remember how they saw the jedi as evil?

[Closet_Skeleton]

It's diffcult in the western world, but... I have something for some of the 'world saving by killing humanity' guys in anime. As Gundam's Char or Master Asia. Or X's Earth Dragons.

Char didn't want to save the world by killing humanity. He wanted to save humanity by destroying the world.


Bear in mind, however, that Revan would have failed had it not been for his "redemption." By turning to the teachings of the Sith, he set himself up for his own betrayal at Malak's hands. Malak didn't care about the greater good and simply ruled by terror. That's the whole problem with tyrrany: Sure, you can work for the greater good more efficiently, but your successor could just undo everything on a whim.

As I said, there's nothing wrong with KotOR 1. The problem is KotOR 2 suggesting that Revan falling was the best option.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Agreed if you're a gundam villain( with some minor exceptions) you normally are pretty well meaningUnless you're an over-the-top Hitler wannabe. I'm looking at you, Gihren.

I still haven't watched Gundam 00, but as far as I can tell from what I've heard, the Celestial Being chaps are the bad guys (maybe not the main characters, but the organization as a whole).

[Closet_Skeleton]

Are we sure that's why he did it? For all we know, he was preparing the galaxy for the Yuuzan Vong invasion and got carried away towards the end.

That's a crap retcon and you know it.

Palpatine took over the Galaxy and destroyed the Jedi because that's what Darth Bane created the Sith to do. Are you telling me that Darth Bane knew about the Yuuzan Vong now?


creating a power vacuum for the morally upright new republic (much stronger than the last patch!) to fill

Except that the New Republic collapses and fails to deal with the Yuuzan Vong invasion.

[black dragoon]

pretty much from what I've seen. It plays out as PEACE THROUGH PAIN really. The gundams are dropped into an area that can escalate and tip the balance one way or the other. They mop the site clean of any thing with a gun and leave. like I said PEACE THROUGH PAIN! yeah, that exception....Does he count as evil for having a Darth Vader wannabe as well? :smalltongue:

[Fri]

It's called VIOLENT PEACEKEEPING!

Basically vaporizing anyone that waved a gun.

Reminded me on Relena Peacecraft. Only with more violence.

[black dragoon]

yeah, I couldn't remember the name off the top of my head...:smallredface:
But they really seem to be doing the job. They stopped a civil war in Sri Lanka if I remember right.

[warty goblin]

Weren't the keepers there to ensure they could get through like sovereign? I swear they were designed for that task...yeah I guess I'd rather go in a fight to the bitter end...we did kill one though...:smallamused:

The Codex left it debatable whether or not the Keepers were created by the Reapers, or were simply a race they indoctrinated the hell out of early on, then found a use for after killing everything else. Either way it demonstrates that they admit the need for biological helper species at some level, and given that they only show up for a couple hundred years out of every fifty thousand or so, most of the time existance could arguably go on quite normally.

[Griever]

Something similar in KH 2. I never quite understood WHY it was necessary to fight the Nobodies, and it just seemed rather like egotism at its highest to me.

Though... they still made a satisfying "THUMP" when they hit the ground.

[black dragoon]

Yeah...not digging that idea. I really don't wanna live with giant flying mechanical squids as overlords. Saren wasn't wrong in a manner of speaking, you lived, but, really if I ended up like the keepers no thanks or anything indoctrinated. That to is a far worse fate than death. Maybe I just have this thing against GIANT MECHANICAL SQUIDS who knows.:smallbiggrin:

[Closet_Skeleton]

and it just seemed rather like egotism at its highest to me.

Is that anything like ergotism? I was going to be more sarcastic but apparently egotism is a genuine alternative spelling of egoism


Reminded me on Relena Peacecraft. Only with more violence.

When she wasn't a puppet Queen, Relena was a diplomat and never used violence. Gundam 00's first episode was so terrible that I couldn't bare any more but aren't they trying to cause peace through excessive force? There's a more of a differance between diplomacy and MAD than just how violent they are.

[black dragoon]

They are pulling the white fleet from American history I think. In other words carry a big stick that can blow things up and threaten anyone you don't like. If they get out of line hit 'em with it.

[Stupendous_Man]

I mean, their entire MO (thanks averagejoe) was that they beat stuff up and somehow, a culture formed around these chaotic thugs.

Sounds like right good fun. WAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

[Sholos]

I support the orcs and half-orcs of D&D (Check out the PrC contest entry in homebrews.) It's partially because they're the underdogs (what's with the orc LA and half-orc mods???) and partially because they make no sense, necessitating a rewrite of the entire culture/race. I mean, their entire MO (thanks averagejoe) was that they beat stuff up and somehow, a culture formed around these chaotic thugs. Yawn. Now they suck less. In fact they rock. Go me.

Have you read the latest trilogy by R.A. Salvatore? He gets a full-fledged kingdom of orcs going (albeit by conquering a pretty big area). That makes peace once it gets what it wants, and opens trade negotiations with other countries.

[SmartAlec]

As I said, there's nothing wrong with KotOR 1. The problem is KotOR 2 suggesting that Revan falling was the best option.

It has to be said that the main mouthpiece for this belief in KOTOR2 is a character who can best be described as an 'unreliable narrator', and that anyone who takes anything she says at face value is something of a sucker.

[TheElfLord]

What part of him being evil incarnate and completely imoral did you miss in the fact that he started a war with millions of casualties just to increase his job security?

The casualties were robots and clones. (At least in the movies) If the organization that rates moves don't consider them people neither do I.

Not to mention that the transition to the Empire ultimately made the galaxy stronger and paved the way for the new republic. The Old system was too far gone to reform and needed to be swept away and rebooted.

[Ascension]

Who hear didn't end up rooting for Ozymandias in the watchmen?

I didn't. I hate his guts. The absolute worst part is that he's right, which makes him even more unpalatable.


Char didn't want to save the world by killing humanity. He wanted to save humanity by destroying the world.

I think it's more he wanted to save both in the long term by destroying both in the short term. Kill off some of the impractically large population, scare the rest into moving off the planet. Man is able to continue his evolution by moving to space and being exposed to the stresses of war; the planet is able to begin a slow and natural recuperation in the absence of man. The end goal is a healed earth and a newtype humanity.

'course, he screwed it up and got way too many personal vendettas involved, but you can't fault him for trying.


I still haven't watched Gundam 00, but as far as I can tell from what I've heard, the Celestial Being chaps are the bad guys (maybe not the main characters, but the organization as a whole).

Sort of. It gives you the impression that CB's creator intended them to do good, but his successors derailed the plot for personal power... much like the Revan/Malak situation.

[LordVader]

I always loved Kane from the Tiberium games, he's just...awesome.

I also liked the Star Wars Empire, mainly because they were just frickin' sweet. Huge guns, huge tanks, huge battle stations that aren't moons...you name it, they had it.

[black dragoon]

Ah Kane...So crazy and utterly insane you can't help but not to like him a little. :smallwink:

[SurlySeraph]

I'm surprised that this hasn't come up yet:

Light Yagami was right.

[black dragoon]

A sociopath to the bone but yeah in way he was. Scary....

[Nerd-o-rama]

Technically, Light was the protagonist. Still a villain, but L and his crew are the antagonists of that series. Antagonists that are only stopping a serial killer, which makes them this topic.

And you can't eliminate crime by eliminating criminals. You have to remove the motivations to commit crimes in the first place.

[Fri]

Sort of. It gives you the impression that CB's creator intended them to do good, but his successors derailed the plot for personal power... much like the Revan/Malak situation.

You know, I was kinda sad for him. After building everything for hundreds of years, patiently waiting to be woken up on a peaceful world, some punk with megalomania just screwed his plan in less than a year.

He got the last laugh though.

There's a lesson on it. Most of the time, human popsicle-ing yourself is really stupid. You're completely on a stranger's hand.

[Lord Iames Osari]

When she wasn't a puppet Queen, Relena was a diplomat and never used violence. Gundam 00's first episode was so terrible that I couldn't bare any more but aren't they trying to cause peace through excessive force? There's a more of a differance between diplomacy and MAD than just how violent they are.

I recommend giving it another shot. It gets much, much better, I promise.

[Devin]

Even if it were necessary to kill off a whole bunch of criminals to make the world a better place, I wouldn't trust anyone to make the right choices, especially Light.

Besides, he wanted to start killing people for a whole lot less than serious crimes eventually, not to mention all the innocent people he was willing to kill to keep going. He was even willing to kill a complete stranger who said he was evil in the second episode.

Edit: Also, he's a sadistic maniac.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Sort of. It gives you the impression that CB's creator intended them to do good, but his successors derailed the plot for personal power... much like the Revan/Malak situation.
Some of his successors. Like [spoiler] and [spoiler], not to mention [spoiler].

[black dragoon]

Yeah...sociopath. In all honesty he was the least likable character out of a slew in my opinion. Does Ryuk count? I always perceived him as a Devil's advocate.

[Devin]

Yeah...sociopath. In all honesty he was the least likable character out of a slew in my opinion.

I never said I didn't like him. :smallwink:


Does Ryuk count? I always perceived him as a Devil's advocate.

Ryuuk seems to be pretty evil himself; he doesn't seem to care what happens, as long he's entertained. His willingness to let Light go ahead with his plans certainly prevents him from being good.

I'm only on the seventh episode, though.

[black dragoon]

His likability dwindles sharply after that. He basically continues to gloat over his superiority till the end. I get tired of the immense ego after more than ten minutes.

[Ascension]

Some of his successors. Like [spoiler] and [spoiler], not to mention [spoiler].

I would argue that the only people in the organization who weren't busy derailing his plan were the ones who were completely ignorant of his plan, and therefore couldn't derail it if they wanted to. The grunts were uncorrupted, but the leadership suffered immensely after he went into suspended animation.

[thegurullamen]

(quote from some smart dude :))
That's a crap retcon and you know it.

Palpatine took over the Galaxy and destroyed the Jedi because that's what Darth Bane created the Sith to do. Are you telling me that Darth Bane knew about the Yuuzan Vong now?

(Another brilliant observation from somebody.)

Except that the New Republic collapses and fails to deal with the Yuuzan Vong invasion.

The entire EU (including novels, video games and random fanfics [blech]) is one big flub. I have trouble considering the EU and the pretrilogy in the same argument; Lucas didn't give a damn about the EU when he re-trilogied and it shows an a few places.

As for Darth Bane, he didn't have to know a damn thing. Everything came down to Pally's unsurpassed virtue and self-sacrifice, not his "creator"'s. Pally acted independently and came out victorious. As for the Republic falling under the weight of the YV: Hubbuh say what? (reads Wookiepedia) Oh. Um...crap. Yeah. Pally's plan could only last so long I suppose. Unless it's still going on. (Dum dum DUM!!!) What long-since-forgotten secrets await to help rebuild the New (New) Republic? Only time and some random authors will tell!


I'm surprised that this hasn't come up yet:

Light Yagami was right.

AHHHHHHHHHH!!! AHHHH! AHHHHHHHHH!!! (head a'splodes.)

[Closet_Skeleton]

It has to be said that the main mouthpiece for this belief in KOTOR2 is a character who can best be described as an 'unreliable narrator', and that anyone who takes anything she says at face value is something of a sucker.

You try telling that to Revan fanboys or people who think that moral ambiguity is about throwing lightning around and being badass without repercussions.

Kreia's story makes a lot more sense if you assume that every time she says "Revan" she actually means 'herself'.


The casualties were robots and clones. (At least in the movies) If the organization that rates moves don't consider them people neither do I.

Civilian casualties are inevitable in war.


Not to mention that the transition to the Empire ultimately made the galaxy stronger and paved the way for the new republic. The Old system was too far gone to reform and needed to be swept away and rebooted.

Except it didn't. The New Republic collapsed and the Yuzan Vong were only just defeated by the Jedi. The New Republic had 500 Jedi, the Old Republic had 10,000. If the Yuzan Vong had invaded the latter they wouldn't have a chance.

If you igore the New Jedi Order series and just go by the movies, then Palpatine is evil incarnate and there's no room to argue his morality. If you take the New Jedi Order series into account, the New Republic was a terrible organisation that destroyed itself.

[Drascin]

Something similar in KH 2. I never quite understood WHY it was necessary to fight the Nobodies, and it just seemed rather like egotism at its highest to me.

Though... they still made a satisfying "THUMP" when they hit the ground.

Well, Riku had the right of it - Nobodies might not be all bad, but they were being directed by the Organization, and those guys messed up a lot of people on their way to getting back their hearts, because most of them were total bastards. Stopping them was necessary.

Mind you, I can still agree Sora's behaviour is grating - Mr Exposition told him that Nobodies don't matter, don't really exist nor have real feelings, so of course not a single one of them does, that would be against what the plot said! Even if one of them sacrifices himself for you, you've re-fused with another, and previously been saved and cared for during a whole year by a third one, admitting that Nobodies can, in fact, be worthy of trust, means you've been tricked by their act. Gah :smallannoyed:

[Seraph]

Oh I didn't say he wasn't a scumbag, because he clearly is. That however has no bearing on him being right about the Reapers. Sheperd was all gung-ho kill this kill that, but Saren actually (arguably) bothered to step back and look at the situation, see if fighting made any sense.


except that saren was wrong. its made clear by every source with enough information (including sovereign itself) that the reapers had no intention of sparing anyone, even if they did volunteer. their purpose is to eradicate all life. full stop. no exceptions, no pity, no reward for good behavior, they want to kill everything, and the people who fell into saren's line of thinking are just going to die last.

[black dragoon]

At least they had that to look forward to. :smalltongue:
As for Nobodies I almost pity them. They just wanted to have a heart...And instead were repeatedly beat upside their heads with a giant key...

[Drascin]

At least they had that to look forward to. :smalltongue:
As for Nobodies I almost pity them. They just wanted to have a heart...And instead were repeatedly beat upside their heads with a giant key...

Now, now, let's not get into Draco In Leather Pants territory. Sora might be an hypocrite, and I will never refute you that (just why Donald didn't smack him over the head a couple times was beyond me) but the Nobody side wasn't just a bunch of cool cloaked misunderstoods - almost all the Organization was unmistakably evil in the "anything goes for our objectives" way. Come on, is it worth it releasing hordes of hungry Heartless on inhabited worlds just to lure Sora? Especially taking into account a sign that said "trap this way" could lure Sora, for the Goddess's sake!

[Nerd-o-rama]

Except it didn't. The New Republic collapsed and the Yuzan Vong were only just defeated by the Jedi. The New Republic had 500 Jedi, the Old Republic had 10,000. If the Yuzan Vong had invaded the latter they wouldn't have a chance.I'd like to point out that the Jedi Order of the Clone Wars era was pretty much too rulebound and ineptly organized to do anything except destroy robots by the destroyerload. Luke's new, hippy order did a lot more with a lot less, because it wasn't such a doddering antique of an organization.

[black dragoon]

True, drascin many of the nobodies were out and out bad guys. But, some were actually somewhat good(Axel is pretty good example). I feel bad for those Nobodies, not the Ansem wannabe and his cronies. They deserved no remorse for pretty much killing thousands of people to lure someone to the them and then try to A. Reawaken their lost comrade or B. use his power to break the seal on something that shouldn't be tampered with at all.

[SmartAlec]

I'd like to point out that the Jedi Order of the Clone Wars era was pretty much too rulebound and ineptly organized to do anything except destroy robots by the destroyerload. Luke's new, hippy order did a lot more with a lot less, because it wasn't such a doddering antique of an organization.

It's a little unfair to call the Jedi Order of the Clone Wars antique; if we go by the EU, the Jedi Order in the form that we see it in the movies is only 2,000 years old, and was only a response to the troubling fact that when the Jedi Order was looser and less centralised, renegade Jedi seemed to start a new Sith Empire every other bloody week.

The Jedi Order in the KOTOR games is a bit of an anacronism, and contradicts the already-established stuff concerning the era of Exar Kun.

[Closet_Skeleton]

It's a little unfair to call the Jedi Order of the Clone Wars antique; if we go by the EU, the Jedi Order in the form that we see it in the movies is only 2,000 years old, and was only a response to the troubling fact that when the Jedi Order was looser and less centralised, renegade Jedi seemed to start a new Sith Empire every other bloody week.

The Jedi Order in the KOTOR games is a bit of an anacronism, and contradicts the already-established stuff concerning the era of Exar Kun.

Only 1000 years old apparently.

Though that's just to make dialogue from the prequels work with old EU stuff.

[GolemsVoice]

I always sided with Arthas in Warcraft III (and the expansion, of course). WoW is another thing, one that I will not consider). I don't think one can argue whether his motives are good or not. Anything good he had when taking up Frostmourne is now surely erroded by Ner'zhul's whispers, the Burning Legions commands and his own Reign of Evil (tm). But still, I find him to be much more likeable than most villains, maybe because you got to play his side too, and must say that I have really grown attached to him.

[black dragoon]

Does Invader Zim count? If so, yeah totally was rooting for him to kill off that Earth. They deserved it big time.

[puppyavenger]

Does Invader Zim count? If so, yeah totally was rooting for him to kill off that Earth. They deserved it big time.

bah! the tallest are better! and I'm pretty sure he's the protagonist

[black dragoon]

That is true then I vote for Tak the true invader!:smallbiggrin:

[Mewtarthio]

You try telling that to Revan fanboys or people who think that moral ambiguity is about throwing lightning around and being badass without repercussions.

Yes, well, that applies to anything. I still think KotoR II goes out of its way to show Revan as someone who fell for good intentions, rather than someone who fell because that was the right thing to do. I mean, just look at what he did to Malachor with the Mass Shadow Generator (and let's not forget that, if you take the Good path, you have to destroy the entire planet to keep it from annihilating the Force traditions).

[TheElfLord]

I always sided with Arthas in Warcraft III (and the expansion, of course). WoW is another thing, one that I will not consider). I don't think one can argue whether his motives are good or not. Anything good he had when taking up Frostmourne is now surely erroded by Ner'zhul's whispers, the Burning Legions commands and his own Reign of Evil (tm). But still, I find him to be much more likeable than most villains, maybe because you got to play his side too, and must say that I have really grown attached to him.

LOL, I hated Arthas until Frozen throne. I always thought he was weak and whinny. He improved for me only because I started hating Sylvanis more than Arthas.

Although when I was in undergrad I toyed with writing a paper on morality as expressed in Warcraft III. I never agreed with condemnation of Arthas' actions at Strathome? (where he kills all the people). That was billed as his "fall" moment, but to me it seemed to make sense.

[Leliel]

As for the Nobodies...Yeah, I feel for them.

As for their bosses...Not so much.

For my example, I would say the Wizard from Overlord.

Sure, he tempted the other heroes into becoming utter jerks, but only tempted. They were bad before then, he just gave them an excuse.

Plus, he only wanted his position back.

[Thufir]

Jumping into the KH2 Nobody discussion. I, from the moment Yen Sid explained what they were, thought 'These are beings to be pitied.' But no, we just go around indiscriminately whacking them. And they call the bad guys Heartless...
Admittedly the majority of Organisation XIII were evil, but that was at least partly because they were actually incapable of feeling real compassion or empathy for the people harmed by their actions. And their ultimate goal, as I recall, was what? "Once we have Kingdom Hearts, we will finally, truly, exist." or something like that. As we saw, it didn't work properly, but if you could do that, use Kingdom Hearts to essentially turn the Nobodies back into people, isn't that a good thing?
But throughout it's just considered plain and obvious that Nobodies Are Bad. Except Roxas And Namine, Because They're Special. Axel's Maybe OK Too.
After beating up Demyx, I would feel appalled at Sora were I not so frustrated by the battle itself.

[SurlySeraph]

LOL, I hated Arthas until Frozen throne. I always thought he was weak and whinny. He improved for me only because I started hating Sylvanis more than Arthas.

Although when I was in undergrad I toyed with writing a paper on morality as expressed in Warcraft III. I never agreed with condemnation of Arthas' actions at Strathome? (where he kills all the people). That was billed as his "fall" moment, but to me it seemed to make sense.

Destroying Strathome made sense. Accusing Uther of treason and claiming that he already had all the powers of the king showed that he was getting maniacally self-righteous.

Of course, one of the things I most liked about Arthas is that he falls one step at a time. Strathome, betraying the mercenaries, taking Frostmourne at the cost of everything, leaving his troops to die, killing his father. It's much more plausible than taking a single step to go from paladin to death knight.

@V: Actually, you just reminded me of something. In Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, Sure, the anti-spirals oppose bravery and hope and all kinds of good things. But they're trying to SAVE THE UNIVERSE. Meaning that, by their awesome hot-bloodness and strength of will, THE HEROES ARE DESTROYING THE UNIVERSE! I'm starting to wonder whether Tengen Toppa was actually supposed to be a parody of hot-blooded shows...

[black dragoon]

yeah...the only problem with using kingdom hearts is that using it will destroy life as we know it if it is used. just making that clear is all.

[Gavin Sage]

In Gundam 00 about halfway through the season I decided that the Gundams were no heroes, the villians not the least bit villiany, and promptly started root for the super suits to go down in flames.

[black dragoon]

I do agree with that for most part. I defiantly do not like their superiors as well. They take young children and turn them into supersoldiers....yeah that doesn't fly where I'm from and I'm American the guys who enjoy blowing things up.

[Ascension]

In Gundam 00 about halfway through the season I decided that the Gundams were no heroes, the villians not the least bit villiany, and promptly started root for the super suits to go down in flames.

It took you halfway through the series to come to that conclusion? :smalltongue:

I did root for the protagonists, but only after they had beaten for the first time. When they were just massacring everyone without breaking a sweat I was cheering for Pedobear the Wild Bear of Russia, Soma, and/or Char Graham to beat the snot out of them.

[Tengu_temp]

@V: Actually, you just reminded me of something. In Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, Sure, the anti-spirals oppose bravery and hope and all kinds of good things. But they're trying to SAVE THE UNIVERSE. Meaning that, by their awesome hot-bloodness and strength of will, THE HEROES ARE DESTROYING THE UNIVERSE! I'm starting to wonder whether Tengen Toppa was actually supposed to be a parody of hot-blooded shows...

The anti-spirals didn't take one thing under consideration - the only people who will possess enough spiral energy to endanger the universe will also be too good to cause it willingly. Compare what happened in the last episodes to the alternative (more cynical) universe at the beginning of the first one, before the actual plot kicks in.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Ascension: I think you forgot Team Patrick.

Regarding TTGL and the Anti-Spiral (should that even be made plural? It's a hivemind):
Like their reluctant henchman Lord Genome, the Anti-Spiral have a goal of salvation and preservation, but go to oppressive means to obtain it. They were preventing any chance of the Spiral Nemesis, to be sure, but at the cost of completely stopping evolution, society, and life itself throughout the universe.

The heroes of the Dai-Gurren-dan believe, and I believe as an audience member, that allowing Spiralkind and everyone else in the universe to progress, evolve, and be free to self-determine is worth the risk - risk, not certainty - of somebody destroying the universe. As Simon explains to the Anti-Spiral when he/they/it is/are defeated, humans can look after ourselves without having a boot ground in our faces.

Simon, of course, goes on to prove his responsibility in a heartbreaking manner by giving up his power rather than using it to do something other than save the Universe, since that would be the first step toward Spiral Nemesis.

[Gavin Sage]

It took you halfway through the series to come to that conclusion? :smalltongue:

I did root for the protagonists, but only after they had beaten for the first time. When they were just massacring everyone without breaking a sweat I was cheering for Pedobear the Wild Bear of Russia, Soma, and/or Char Graham to beat the snot out of them.

It took me until that long to give up on a real villian appearing and someone getting a moment to kick the dog. Or maybe just show that the three countries were somehow more evil then countries simply are. Gundam's always had a strong dose of pacifism, but I can't say I ever found it so cloying and imperialist. On the strength of past achievements with the Gundam genre I was willing to give it time.

Of course once I gave up the series then proceded to try doing what I want and fail, making me more miserable. I like to pretend sometimes the series ended with Graham kicking the Thrones arse with his Flag.

[black dragoon]

wishful thinking sadly....At least F91 had Space Nazis and a vader wannbe....and a giant killer mechanical rose.....

[Ascension]

Gundam's always had a strong dose of pacifism, but I can't say I ever found it so cloying and imperialist. On the strength of past achievements with the Gundam genre I was willing to give it time.

Of course once I gave up the series then proceded to try doing what I want and fail, making me more miserable. I like to pretend sometimes the series ended with Graham kicking the Thrones arse with his Flag.

I like 00. I still do. I'm just miffed that they licensed the thing before the second season, removing my flimsy justification for indulging in fansubs. Now the nagging paladin in my brain is probably going to make me wait for the DVD release...

...so long... so, so long...

Oh well... at least I finally got enough cash together to buy Zeta. That should tide me over for a little while...

...but not long enough... :smallfrown:


Ascension: I think you forgot Team Patrick.

Believe me, I didn't forget. I excluded intentionally. Sergei, Soma, Graham... all more than cool enough to defeat a Gundam. Patrick? Not so much. I wasn't cheering for him, I was just waiting for him to go blasting off again so we could deal with more three dimensional characters.

Anyway, once they turned off (or at least turned down) the god mode on the Gundams my enjoyment of the series increased greatly, and I was actually able to start cheering for the protagonists.
And then they went and killed Lockon! The bastards! Even if I wasn't enjoying it anymore I'd have to see season two, just to see Ali get his final comeuppance. Hopefully it will be appropriately slow and painful.

[Hectonkhyres]

Ryuuk seems to be pretty evil himself; he doesn't seem to care what happens, as long he's entertained. His willingness to let Light go ahead with his plans certainly prevents him from being good.
Ryuk is an otherwise immortal god who has to kill men just to survive, doomed to watch as rank after rank of our kind drop and turn to ash like so many mayflies. And, whats more: he knows that human beings do not possess immortal souls.

Of course he is uncaring of our plight. I couldn't expect otherwise. But he never seemed actively malicious and was the first to say that Light was getting into black-and-gray territory that makes even him sick to the stomach. He may be an lifeforce-eating apple junkie... but even Shinigami have standards.

Only damn character in the whole series I can't find fault with.

[Poison_Fish]

And then they went and killed Lockon! The bastards! Even if I wasn't enjoying it anymore I'd have to see season two, just to see Ali get his final comeuppance. Hopefully it will be appropriately slow and painful.

Lockon, Lockon! Lockon, Lockon!

;_;, so sad.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Yes, well, that applies to anything. I still think KotoR II goes out of its way to show Revan as someone who fell for good intentions, rather than someone who fell because that was the right thing to do.

The point is that Kreia specifically says that Revan never really "fell" to the darkside, he "made a sacrifice". The problem is that some people take that at face value.

It makes more sense if you interpret it so that Kreia is actually talking about herself and projecting her own thoughts onto Revan.

Kreia sacrifices herself at Malachor V to save the galaxy from being destroyed by the wound in the force so her becoming Darth Traya again isn't really a fall but a sacrifice.

The whole "wound in the force" thing is a load of rubbish as a plot point but some internal logic can be made out of the mess that was that game.

[Fri]

Anyone have the link to the KOTOR 2 playthrough thread on SA? They discussed all those things and it really explain things up for me. I've played KOTOR 2 twice but never really understand it (maybebecause I haven't played KOTOR that time. SEriously, it screws your head). But they really explain things.

And about Gundam 00, yeah. I was bored until they turned the godmode off. Really excited when finally everyone got GN engine. Pissed off when we learned that



The gundams are not left handed have a REAL godmode!

[Lord of Rapture]

Ryuk is an otherwise immortal god who has to kill men just to survive, doomed to watch as rank after rank of our kind drop and turn to ash like so many mayflies. And, whats more: he knows that human beings do not possess immortal souls.

Of course he is uncaring of our plight. I couldn't expect otherwise. But he never seemed actively malicious and was the first to say that Light was getting into black-and-gray territory that makes even him sick to the stomach. He may be an lifeforce-eating apple junkie... but even Shinigami have standards.

Only damn character in the whole series I can't find fault with.

If you can find any moral shortcomings in Sochiro, you are not a normal human being.

[Ascension]

Pissed off when we learned that



The gundams are not left handed have a REAL godmode!


Actually, by that point I was just going "Oooh, shiiiiiiiny!" so it didn't really bug me all that much. And since they had lost much of their technological edge by that point they needed some boost if they weren't going to get overrun by sheer numbers...
...and then they got overrun in the end anyway...

[Fri]

On Gundam 00


Yes, but at that time I really want that, for once, they don't solve problems with escalating arms race.

At first I was, holy ****. They all have the same technology. The gundam isn't the best mechs. This is something. How can they survive this.

But then. Ah, they simply have better tech.

At least they did get overran in the end

[black dragoon]

Really that would be the only logical outcome when you're fighting a foe with an uber-weapon. Death Note really just irks me at times. One to many Mary-sue esque characters and way to much gloating for it's own sake of trying to sound amazing. At least Kira got what was coming in the end though.:smallwink:

[Closet_Skeleton]

Anyone have the link to the KOTOR 2 playthrough thread on SA? They discussed all those things and it really explain things up for me. I've played KOTOR 2 twice but never really understand it (maybebecause I haven't played KOTOR that time. SEriously, it screws your head). But they really explain things.

I understand KotOR 2 weill enough. That doesn't mean I like it.

[Querzis]

I gotta agree with a many poster and say poor Tom never deserved anything Jerry did to him.

Apart from that, Bowser isnt really villainous. We know hes in love with the princess and apparently hes just too blunt and too dumb to know any other way of getting her attention then kidnapping her. Thats probably why he end up helping Mario everytime something actually evil (like the smithy gang) come in the mushroom kingdom and why Mario and Bowser have no problem with doing baseball games and kart race when they arent fighting over Peach. Hell, he even said he like having Mario as an enemy in Galaxy. I just really dont see whats supposed to be really evil about him.

I wont talk about Death note because I hate Light so much I try not to think about him or I get too pissed off. Instead lets talk about Code Geass...I'm the only one who really dont get how Lelouch is supposed to be any better then the Emperor? Seriously, he has no problem with killing so many people for no other reason then for his sister, to avenge his mother and for his ego. He doesnt care about all the civilians he killed in the landslide, hes just concerned about it when he learn that his girlfriend father was killed in the landslide (and even then). And, of course, there is the fact that, no matter how much he try to rationalize his actions, Euphemia actually accomplished a lot more then ever did but she did it peacefully, without killing anyone. I was so annoyed by how they killed her, she was the only one I could consider a good guy in the entire show! And the only one I consider to be not villain (or at least, not warmongers) are some of the students like Rivalz as well as Lloyd and Cecil...And I dont think its supposed to be normal when one of the most gentle and less agressive character in the show is the freaking mad scientist and his assistant!

[mangosta71]

I just really dont see whats supposed to be really evil about him.

You've never faced Giga-Bowser on the hardest setting of Brawl. There's plenty that's evil about him.

[Querzis]

You've never faced Giga-Bowser on the hardest setting of Brawl. There's plenty that's evil about him.

I did. I had more problem with Master hand when Crazy hand help him then Giga Bowser. Beside, just wait until you fight Tabuu and his one hit-kill in Brawl, now thats pure evil!

[freerangetroll]

I just finished watching season one of Death Note (god I know I'm late on that one) but I just have to say this. Light is pure freaking Evil. I actually really liked L. First ending to an anime I was actually angry about.

[black dragoon]

Yeah, you and pretty much there fan base.:smallwink:

[Mewtarthio]

I wont talk about Death note because I hate Light so much I try not to think about him or I get too pissed off. Instead lets talk about Code Geass...I'm the only one who really dont get how Lelouch is supposed to be any better then the Emperor? Seriously, he has no problem with killing so many people for no other reason then for his sister, to avenge his mother and for his ego. He doesnt care about all the civilians he killed in the landslide, hes just concerned about it when he learn that his girlfriend father was killed in the landslide (and even then). And, of course, there is the fact that, no matter how much he try to rationalize his actions, Euphemia actually accomplished a lot more then ever did but she did it peacefully, without killing anyone. I was so annoyed by how they killed her, she was the only one I could consider a good guy in the entire show! And the only one I consider to be not villain (or at least, not warmongers) are some of the students like Rivalz as well as Lloyd and Cecil...And I dont think its supposed to be normal when one of the most gentle and less agressive character in the show is the freaking mad scientist and his assistant!

Strictly speaking that would be a Designated Protagonist, since the Emperor is clearly evil. Yeah, Lelouch is pretty much just as bad (though he only really snaps in "Shirley at the Trigger"; before that, he was simply callous). At first, I thought he was supposed to be an antihero; later on, I decided that the show was actually a MacBeth-style "watch the villain fall" story. It's really a lot better if you view it that way.

That still doesn't mean I have to like Death Note, though. Lelouch actually has somewhere to fall to, since he's actually human. Light is simply pure, sadistic evil.

[freerangetroll]

That still doesn't mean I have to like Death Note, though. Lelouch actually has somewhere to fall to, since he's actually human. Light is simply pure, sadistic evil.


I actually don't think Light is sadistically evil. I think he has the capability in him. My little theory is that the Death Note magnifies prominent personality traits of the person that possesses it. IE Pre-death note and after *spoiler* Light is proud of his intellect, loves to win, and is all about justice. After gaining the note all of these aspects are magnified into the sadistic megalomania that we see during the show. Not that any of that makes a difference given the context.

[black dragoon]

Agreed I actually kinda felt for Lelouch. Light on the other hand I wanted to stab repeatedly....

in the eye...


with a pen...


while laughing like a schoolgirl.

[Zaphrasz]

I was told that Death Note was an amazing, deep, multi layered anime that was good enough to shake off my dislike of anime. I decided to see if I could stomach a few episodes, and I was left with just another shallow, over the top exercise in pointlessness. I thought Light was such a flat character who goes from "I must save the world" to "I will be a god, muhahaha" in eleven seconds. His thinking is terribly flawed, his plans have tons of holes in them, and I am supposed to believe that this is some super genius? L didn't interest me either, as he was so quick to jump to supernatural conclusions in a world where he has never before encountered such issues. His intelligence is manufactured by the story, not a product of the character(I know, that makes no sense). I ended up not siding with anyone, not caring what ended up happening to them. I guess that it sort of half of what the original post asked for though.

[black dragoon]

I know the feeling. Look at some of the older anime(I found material in the early to mid-nineties to be best) for stuff that actually has feeling behind it. That or a myazaki film.

[BRC]

I was told that Death Note was an amazing, deep, multi layered anime that was good enough to shake off my dislike of anime. I decided to see if I could stomach a few episodes, and I was left with just another shallow, over the top exercise in pointlessness. I thought Light was such a flat character who goes from "I must save the world" to "I will be a god, muhahaha" in eleven seconds. His thinking is terribly flawed, his plans have tons of holes in them, and I am supposed to believe that this is some super genius? L didn't interest me either, as he was so quick to jump to supernatural conclusions in a world where he has never before encountered such issues. His intelligence is manufactured by the story, not a product of the character(I know, that makes no sense). I ended up not siding with anyone, not caring what ended up happening to them. I guess that it sort of half of what the original post asked for though.
Well, The characters can only be as smart as the writer. As for the supernatural solution, well, he proves without a doubt that Kira can kill somebody from having seen him on the television. We don't know what his original hypothesis was, so he ran a test, the results of this test didn't really leave much room for anything mundane.

Anyway, I've always hated any Always Chaotic Evil races thing. However, one one hand Designated antagonists are stupid, "The empire is evil because it is" type of thing. On the other hand, flat out villains with absolutally no redeeming qualities are stupid, you know "Every single imperial solider loves nothing more than burning villages and stabbing babies". So you have to strike a balance.

[black dragoon]

Which Death note fails to do. Code Geass at least had a character that all his ruthless arrogance had a soft point that made him human. Light didn't hardly care about his own family unless they could prove to be useful.

[Zaphrasz]

Yes, that scene caused me so many problems. First of all, the nations of the world decided that someone has to be responsible for the sudden deaths of several dozen inmates from around the world.....who all died of a heart attack, the most common cause of death, and something you generally don't murder someone with. Then L decides to broadcast a live challenge to the killer. Were it not a supernatural occurrence, what exactly would he have gained from it? So he goes on with his speech, about how he, a man who has neither revealed himself nor mentioned his name before, has decided to make himself public to call out a murderer who may or may not exist. So Light kills him, falling right into his trap. This is our genius? Did no one see that something was up?

[black dragoon]

If they had a shred of common sense then yes. But it's light so he blissfully kills off the guy and smiles thinking he killed the greatest detective in the world.



idiot.

[Leliel]

On Light...Yeah, he was evil to begin with, in my opinion.

Also, I just thought of a new DA-Mr. Yggdrasil of Tales of Symphonia.

While I don't buy into the theory that Llyod was the true villain, I can underststand where the opposition came from.

[Mx.Silver]

Which Death note fails to do. Code Geass at least had a character that all his ruthless arrogance had a soft point that made him human. Light didn't hardly care about his own family unless they could prove to be useful.

That may be because Light is a Villain protagonist and is clearly meant to be evil, whereas Lelouch is supposed to be the good guy. Anyone arguing Light was doing the right thing should probably be kept out of any posession of power. Particularly one relating to laws and law enforcement.

As for designated antagonists, there's always the guys from FFTA. You know, the members of the royal family who's motivation is essentially stop the protagonist from ereasing their world from existence. Yeah, Llednar's a violent killing machine as far as your party is concerned but still.

[SmartAlec]

Anyone have the link to the KOTOR 2 playthrough thread on SA? They discussed all those things and it really explain things up for me. I've played KOTOR 2 twice but never really understand it (maybebecause I haven't played KOTOR that time. SEriously, it screws your head). But they really explain things.

http://fromearth.net/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/index.html

I think that's it. The thoughtful, and occasionally hilarious, playthrough/discussion/analysis of KOTOR2.

I also rather liked Prince Arthas and Kel'Thuzad, if only because I started to dig the warped Arthur-and-Merlin thing they had going.

[BRC]

Yes, that scene caused me so many problems. First of all, the nations of the world decided that someone has to be responsible for the sudden deaths of several dozen inmates from around the world.....who all died of a heart attack, the most common cause of death, and something you generally don't murder someone with. Then L decides to broadcast a live challenge to the killer. Were it not a supernatural occurrence, what exactly would he have gained from it? So he goes on with his speech, about how he, a man who has neither revealed himself nor mentioned his name before, has decided to make himself public to call out a murderer who may or may not exist. So Light kills him, falling right into his trap. This is our genius? Did no one see that something was up?
If the killings were by some mundane method, then all L's challenge would have resulted in was a couple minutes of wasted airtime. From L's perspective, it was a very low-risk move. Light fell for it because of his ego, and for plot purposes.



BUT, back on the main topic, Yeah, FFTA was kinda weird. The protagonist finds himself in a world where all his friends are happy, and they get to have fun fighting monsters all day with no risk of death or permanent injury. And so he decides to destroy the world and go back to the one where his brother is crippled and his friends dad is an unemployed loser.
...Yeah.

[Devin]

I get what Marche was doing, the game just needed much better writing. It should have spent a lot more time on reality vs. fantasy and whether it's better to live in a pleasant dreamworld or a harsh reality. Also, he wasn't wiping Ivalice out of existence; they were pretty clear about that in the game. It'll always exist in the book, or their hearts, or something like that.

[Dave Rapp]

Baten Kaitos: Origins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baten_Kaitos_Origins)

SPOILER ALERT, AND YEAH, THIS IS THE GAME'S "BIG OUT-OF-NOWHERE PLOT TWIST IN THE MIDDLE" SPOILER.


We find out that the main character, Sagi, has a part of the ancient god Malpercio bonded to his heart, which makes him powerful and stuff. Except... Malpercio was the final boss and the big bad of the previous game, which takes place 20 years after this one. I thought he would go evil or something.

[TeeEl]

BUT, back on the main topic, Yeah, FFTA was kinda weird. The protagonist finds himself in a world where all his friends are happy, and they get to have fun fighting monsters all day with no risk of death or permanent injury and everything else about the world that he used to know and love is gone. And so he decides to destroy the world and go back to the one where his brother is crippled and his friends dad is an unemployed loser.

Fixed. The fact that Marche would have preferred the real world over the fantasy one is not especially surprising, and it's unrealistic to expect him to martyr himself just so his whiny friends can have their comfortable delusions.

[Ascension]

Fixed. The fact that Marche would have preferred the real world over the fantasy one is not especially surprising, and it's unrealistic to expect him to martyr himself just so his whiny friends can have their comfortable delusions.

This. A hundred times this. When I first saw internet discussion of FFTA, which was a good bit after I played the game, I couldn't understand one bit why everyone was saying that Marche was the bad guy. You'd rather him let his friends waste their lives living in a happy illusion (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LotusEaterMachine) rather than learn to deal with real life?

[TeeEl]

If it were a matter of Marche having the option to leave them be in the dreamworld or force them back to the real world... I still think tough love is the right course of action, but I can partly understand the other side's arguments (at least regarding Doned). Holding Marche a hostage to their fantasies is just ridiculous, though.

[Devin]

It's meant to be a Lotus Eater Machine, but it doesn't really come off like one(except maybe in Mewt's case). Like I said, it needed better writing.

[BRC]

Fixed. The fact that Marche would have preferred the real world over the fantasy one is not especially surprising, and it's unrealistic to expect him to martyr himself just so his whiny friends can have their comfortable delusions.
Hmm, I feel like an idiot now. That actually makes a good deal of sense, though they really should have explored that a little more. From what I remember of the game, Marche didn't really explain his motivations.

[Mr. Scaly]

I was hoping Phair Caron would conquer Silvanesti. Sure she was a psychotic genocidal b**** but I STILL prefer her to those miserable elves.

[black dragoon]

I think anyone would do over the silvanesti,
Does Gendo Ikari count?
If so yeah him.

[Hectonkhyres]

On Light...Yeah, he was evil to begin with, in my opinion.
I'm not sure I would go that far. Certainly Light possessed almost no capacity for introspection and precious little self control. Without the Death Note he probably would have grown up to be a very effective detective like his father who is the pride of the force... and who happen to interrogate suspects with a phonebook from time to time. But otherwise he would probably be a very decent, if psychologically weak, human being. As it was though, even the devil himself in in the bathroom hurling his guts out.

Drop that damn book in my lap and I am pretty sure I would be swatting people down left and right. Oh, sure, I would be a hell of a lot more selective as to victims and ensure they die in slightly less conspicuous ways... but there is no way I, or the better chunk of the planet, could leave that blasted thing be.

Lelouch... with him I have mixed feelings. I'm quite content to watch someone in his position engage in a bloody world-girdling war against his father and the Empire. A goal like that is worth a good atrocity or two if they are necessary. My issue is that Lelouch seems intent on going about his plans in the single most ass-backwards, Rube Goldbergian manner possible. It is forgivable to sacrifice the good and the innocent... but not to stupidly sacrifice them.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think anyone would do over the silvanesti,
Does Gendo Ikari count?
If so yeah him.How's he a designated antagonist? Aside from being personally a right bastard, he sold out humanity and his own ideals to resurrect his dead wife. Villain. Villain with an explanation, but a villain.

[black dragoon]

True. He did backstab SEELE though. I gotta hand him that I need to look up this trope again...

[Nerd-o-rama]

He backstabbed SEELE for his own selfish reasons and, like everything else that happened in End of Evangelion, really just made things worse. Do re-read the trope, please.

[black dragoon]

yeah already am.

[TeeEl]

It's meant to be a Lotus Eater Machine, but it doesn't really come off like one(except maybe in Mewt's case). Like I said, it needed better writing.

I don't really see how it isn't one, and other than Doned I don't think anyone had an especially compelling reason for absolutely preferring Ivalice. I agree completely on the writing but really that almost goes without saying.

Lelouch is Code Geass's protagonist, so by definition he's not a designated antagonist, villainous or no. I think Schneizel edges into designated antagonist territory sometimes, though. By the standards of the setting he's a goddamned saint (and fairly close by a lot of standards anyhow), but to hear the protagonists talk about him sometimes it's like his favorite dessert is puppy a la mode or something.

[Drascin]

On Light...Yeah, he was evil to begin with, in my opinion.

Also, I just thought of a new DA-Mr. Yggdrasil of Tales of Symphonia.

While I don't buy into the theory that Llyod was the true villain, I can underststand where the opposition came from.

...What? Mithos was so far along the Well Intentioned Extremist path he couldn't see the beginning now. Seriously, dooming two worlds to an endless cycle of suffering to resurrect his sister? Plus let's not forget the Desians (you know, the guys who farmed humans to feed them to EXpheres) kinda were in his payroll because to force the world to need a saviour you need someone oppressing it. Plus the whole striping his followers of emotions and senses when angelfying them. Plus, on a more personal layer, being a personal backstabbing bastard that hurt the only person that had trusted him and called him a friend for millenia. Plus...

[Lord of Rapture]

Lelouch is Code Geass's protagonist, so by definition he's not a designated antagonist, villainous or no. I think Schneizel edges into designated antagonist territory sometimes, though. By the standards of the setting he's a goddamned saint (and fairly close by a lot of standards anyhow), but to hear the protagonists talk about him sometimes it's like his favorite dessert is puppy a la mode or something.

Did you even watch R2? There's a reason he's on the Draco In Leather Pants page. He convinces Nina to build a nuclear bomb, which then proceeds to be the death of 35 million people, and is the only person who is happy about it. Then, he nukes Pendragon, which may I remind you, is where is entire family is located. Yeah, I could see why you didn't think he's a bad guy, but...

Saint? Even before R2, he's a goddamned politician. And how many politicians that ever existed were saints?

[TeeEl]

Then, he nukes Pendragon, which may I remind you, is where is entire family is located.

So? Considering what the rest of his family is like, this is probably a redeeming factor.

Yes, his track record has been tarnished as of late. He's still leaps and bounds ahead of most of the other major actors in the story. Basically everybody nowadays is willing to use extreme methods to save the world, but Schneizel's brand generally seems to be the most palatable. I expect the trajectory of his moral course to take a nosedive in the next few episodes, though, since the writers seem determined to establish him as the badguy even though his primary sin thus far has been being more competent than the protagonists.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Saint? Even before R2, he's a goddamned politician. And how many politicians that ever existed were saints?

Knowing how weird a lot of actual saints are, I could probably find a few.

[Lord of Rapture]

So? Considering what the rest of his family is like, this is probably a redeeming factor.

Yes, his track record has been tarnished as of late. He's still leaps and bounds ahead of most of the other major actors in the story. Basically everybody nowadays is willing to use extreme methods to save the world, but Schneizel's brand generally seems to be the most palatable. I expect the trajectory of his moral course to take a nosedive in the next few episodes, though, since the writers seem determined to establish him as the badguy even though his primary sin thus far has been being more competent than the protagonists.

Ahem. He used a nuke where little Nunnally was during the battle of Tokyo. Not to mention he was the only one happy about using the nuke. Schneizel was always hinted to be a bad guy, it's just he was better at hiding it.

[Cheesegear]

Has anyone mentioned Galvatron yet? The original Galvatron that is. He kind of got screwed over royal. Sure, Megatron was a douche, but Galvatron was ten times better, and I always rooted for him.

Also, King Obould Many-Arrows. I think at one point the book actually reads (paraphrased);
King Obould: "I just want my time in the sun!" Drizzt probably should've thought more about this statement, but he was too busy.
I can't actually recall the page number (or the actual book), but I remember thinking about it for a long time after I put the book down. And to be clear, I didn't like the ending to that series. But Jarlaxle and Entrerei are awesome. Gromph Baneare I also liked.

The Master, I will always root for. Not that I'm not rooting for the Doctor as well - of course.

Lionel Luthor (of Smallville), when he was an antagonist, I thought he was too awesome for words.

Lindsay McDonald (of Angel) was always one of my favourites as well.

And Miko totally counts as an antagonist, right?

[black dragoon]

Alright...Who's a good one. Darseid? nah, he was a ruthless dictator at the end of the day....
How about Lex Luthor? If anyone knows his backstory I'm sure you can understand why he is.(not the silly hair loss deal) I'm talking about how He only really at the end of the day is putting humanity first and trying to prevent aliens with superpowers running the show.

[TeeEl]

Ahem. He used a nuke where little Nunnally was during the battle of Tokyo. Not to mention he was the only one happy about using the nuke. Schneizel was always hinted to be a bad guy, it's just he was better at hiding it.

Ah, yes, I guess he's just hiding his evil acts by the rather devious strategem of not committing any in the first place. The fiend!

So Schneizel is willing to (indirectly) sacrifice Nunnally for the sake of world peace? Better than Lelouch, who's willing to sacrifice world peace for the sake of Nunnally. The other 35 million he sacrificed weigh somewhat more heavily, but that's not an especially monstrous bodycount in terms of world wars. And OH GEEZ HE SMILED WHEN HIS PLAN TO CONCLUSIVELY END THE WAR STARTED TO COME TO FRUITION. Lelouch all but giggles like a schoolgirl whenever his plans are working, and considering the aforementioned world wars he delights in setting off his bodycount has got to be adding up.

[Green Bean]

Alright...Who's a good one. Darseid? nah, he was a ruthless dictator at the end of the day....
How about Lex Luthor? If anyone knows his backstory I'm sure you can understand why he is.(not the silly hair loss deal) I'm talking about how He only really at the end of the day is putting humanity first and trying to prevent aliens with superpowers running the show.

Which particular origin story are you talking about? He's had quite a few, some more sympathetic than others.

[black dragoon]

I'm referring to one of the more recent ones...I think I'd need to double check. It's after crisis if that is any help. Come to think of it....It may be somewhat canon. Don't quote me but I believe it may be part of his general backstory and not just elseworlds.

Awesome Mr. Miracle avatar BTW.

[Green Bean]

I'm referring to one of the more recent ones...I think I'd need to double check. It's after crisis if that is any help. Come to think of it....It may be somewhat canon. Don't quote me but I believe it may be part of his general backstory and not just elseworlds.

Awesome Mr. Miracle avatar BTW.

Somewhat canon? Maybe Superman: Birthright? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman:_Birthright)

And thanks for the compliment. I'm really proud of how he turned out. :smallsmile:

[Gavin Sage]

Ah, yes, I guess he's just hiding his evil acts by the rather devious strategem of not committing any in the first place. The fiend!

So Schneizel is willing to (indirectly) sacrifice Nunnally for the sake of world peace? Better than Lelouch, who's willing to sacrifice world peace for the sake of Nunnally. The other 35 million he sacrificed weigh somewhat more heavily, but that's not an especially monstrous bodycount in terms of world wars. And OH GEEZ HE SMILED WHEN HIS PLAN TO CONCLUSIVELY END THE WAR STARTED TO COME TO FRUITION. Lelouch all but giggles like a schoolgirl whenever his plans are working, and considering the aforementioned world wars he delights in setting off his bodycount has got to be adding up.

Except Lelouch isn't being presented as being LG, like you seem to be presenting Schneizel. He might be a decent ruler in power (but then so is that bastard Lelouch) but Schneizel is probably the second most devilish person in the series. He just simply has selected to be seen as a good guy in a moment of cold blooded calculation.

Schneizel in his inaugral appearence orders his subordinate to commit suicide. He then not only develops a nuclear weapon but instead of say deploying it against the main battle force off the coast, he uses it on the smaller group battling at his own colonial capital. Killing thousands. Its glorified assasination overkill to have deployed FLEIJA there over say bringing in triple the forces from the mainland. Then later after failing to seize the throne he runs off with all his super-weapons and his strategy... to Pearl Harbor his own capital undoubtably killing thousands more. Plenty of villiany there to be had there whatever the aim, good people do not do those things.

The deliberately designated antagonist for Code Geass is Suzaku, in a deliberate subversion of protagonist expectation. Since by genre standards he should be the main character.

[black dragoon]

It's that or possibly the President Luthor series.

[Green Bean]

It's that or possibly the President Luthor series.

I can't find any information on a President Luthor series, but it's probably the one you're thinking of. Looking more closely at the Birthright Wikipedia article, it's clear Lex isn't that sympathetic; he's less about putting humanity first and more about putting himself first.

[black dragoon]

I have another rather interesting character for this. Harry Mcdugal of the McDugal brothers of Outlaw Star.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I like All Star Superman where Lex Luthor starts justifying his crusade to defeat Superman with a bunch of understandable reasons and then ends with "if it wasn't for him, I'd have conquored the world already".

[black dragoon]

Sad part is, it's probably true.

[Neon Knight]

Although I still don't understand what the heck was going on, I always felt that the Metal Gear Solid Series never gave a compelling reason for Killing Solidus in MGS 2, and continuing to hunt Liquid/Liquid Ocelot. Not that either of them are very good people; they're both ruthless and amoral in the extreme with great delusions of grandeur and a maniac desire to rule the world, but they both ultimately oppose the Patriots. The fact of the matter is that Solidus and Liquid were trying to do something about the Patriots, while Solid, on the other hand, seems purely reactionary. I don't think I explained that very well, but it seems to me that Solid was a stooge of the Patriots while Liquid/Solidus at least tried to free mankind from the evil machines, even if their methods were evil.

In the end, I only really liked MGS 3, whose plot I felt was actually pretty decent.

[chiasaur11]

Sad part is, it's probably true.

One word.

Batman.

[black dragoon]

yeah...Read Kingdom Come. It makes you wonder if he isn't a villain at times.

[Oslecamo]

yeah...Read Kingdom Come. It makes you wonder if he isn't a villain at times.

SCREW ALIGNMENT, I HAVE MONEY!

[turkishproverb]

yeah...Read Kingdom Come. It makes you wonder if he isn't a villain at times.

The novel or the Graphic novel? The graphic novel heck yea

"Ladies and gentlemen I give you the Batman!"

[black dragoon]

Of course the Graphic Novel. Honestly I don't care if Gothams safe I still would never go there. Frackin Bat bots...

[turkishproverb]

Of course the Graphic Novel. Honestly I don't care if Gothams safe I still would never go there. Frackin Bat bots...

Yea, that was frighteiningly severe, wasn't it. Even moreso when he starts talking about a "network of cities" like this.

Poor star city covered in Bat Bots...

[black dragoon]

Yeah...sad part is I really get the feeling many of the human capes were all to for it...Is Batman a villain in that I mean There never was a clear cut line( I know that's part of the moral but) i have trouble seeing much of what he did as good. Maybe not the villain but defiantly not a good guy. Oh and let us not forget poor captain marvel.

[turkishproverb]

Yeah...sad part is I really get the feeling many of the human capes were all to for it...Is Batman a villain in that I mean There never was a clear cut line( I know that's part of the moral but) i have trouble seeing much of what he did as good. Maybe not the villain but defiantly not a good guy. Oh and let us not forget poor captain marvel.

Most of the surviving human capes were in the cave with him.

As to villainy, none of his cities had the problems of the rest of the world, random rampaging metas and whatnot, and unlike the MLF he wasn't ARMING metahuman criminals, so its hard to say what the plan was.

[black dragoon]

Impose a strict tyrannical automated system that enforces every law? Maybe it was that verse's version of OMAC. O.O god help them all.

[TeeEl]

Except Lelouch isn't being presented as being LG, like you seem to be presenting Schneizel. He might be a decent ruler in power (but then so is that bastard Lelouch) but Schneizel is probably the second most devilish person in the series. He just simply has selected to be seen as a good guy in a moment of cold blooded calculation.

Schneizel's actual alignment is Pragmatic Awesome, of course. But if we're sticking to D&D's canonical nine LG is not a bad fit, although I would tend to think the sheer scale of the sacrifices he's willing to make for the greater good push him down to LN.


Schneizel in his inaugral appearence orders his subordinate to commit suicide. He then not only develops a nuclear weapon but instead of say deploying it against the main battle force off the coast, he uses it on the smaller group battling at his own colonial capital. Killing thousands. Its glorified assasination overkill to have deployed FLEIJA there over say bringing in triple the forces from the mainland.

How does the fact that Schneizel chooses not to crush his enemies make him evil? Yes, the alternative he chose is a costly one, but in one swoop he brokers an amicable peace between two world-spanning power blocs sworn to each other's destruction while simultaneously rendering one of the major root causes for the war moot, providing a serious deterrent for any further outbreak of war, and avoiding the sowing of any seeds for further conflict. It is a truly awe-inspiring feat of peacemaking.

(Sure, it'll probably turn out he was evil all along, and was only trying to get humanity to let its collective guard down so that he could nuke everybody to death for no reason, and has his own Geass that lets him rape kittens with his mind by looking at them, blah blah blah, but whatever.)

[Closet_Skeleton]

although I would tend to think the sheer scale of the sacrifices he's willing to make for the greater good push him down to LN.

Depends if you consider intentions to be important. One interpretation would be that LE and LG are indentical apart from the intentions that go into them.

[Cheesegear]

Have you ever taken Superman down to the schoolyard-level? Supes is the big strong guy who beats up the Lex Luthor kid who has brains and money. Supes isn't particularly bright either. Lucky for him, everyone around him is just as dumb (if not moreso) than he is. GLASSES is your disguise? Really!? Sometimes I wonder...

[Bandededed]

Yeah, you'd think that the hair do would give him away...


Ya' know, that, or maybe his FACE?!?!?!?

[black dragoon]

Two words Super hypnotism.
I'm not making that up sadly.
In truth He's been found out a few times he just normally beats the living daylights out of the poor guy.

Also most of the Batman's Rouge's Gallery fits this trope in one way or another.

[SurlySeraph]

In Silver Age, one of Superman's (numerous) powers was a subconscious telepathic field that prevented people from recognizing him when he was disguised as Clark Kent.

These days, they don't even handwave it.

[black dragoon]

They actually did a few GN's about the fallout of secret identities being given away. I feel almost bad for those who willingly disclosed them.

[chiasaur11]

Have you ever taken Superman down to the schoolyard-level? Supes is the big strong guy who beats up the Lex Luthor kid who has brains and money. Supes isn't particularly bright either. Lucky for him, everyone around him is just as dumb (if not moreso) than he is. GLASSES is your disguise? Really!? Sometimes I wonder...

Hey, he was Luthor's best pal until Lex got bald and started trying to kill and his best friends.

Frankly, if you have death ray eyes and DON'T kill a guy who's trying to kill you, you ain't that bad.

Plus, in the Silver Age, Supes had super smarts as a power.

[Green Bean]

Have you ever taken Superman down to the schoolyard-level? Supes is the big strong guy who beats up the Lex Luthor kid who has brains and money.

A more apt metaphor would be that Lex is throwing rocks at the other kids, and Superman is the bigger kid who stops him.


These days, they don't even handwave it.

I think the current handwave is that no one knows that Superman even has a secret identity; he's a well known figure, and doesn't even wear a mask. Clark Kent,, between the glasses, change of posture, and personality differences, is just an ordinary guy who sort of looks like a celebrity.

[black dragoon]

That or they just let him live in his little fantasy land:smallbiggrin:

[chiasaur11]

That or they just let him live in his little fantasy land:smallbiggrin:

Well, two of the most well regarded reporters in the world, and some of the world's greatest tech experts are devoted to squashing the truth on this one matter like a bug.

That's gotta help.

[black dragoon]

I'd imagine. Let's get back the rails yes?
How about the Batman's Rouge gallery folks?

[chiasaur11]

I'd imagine. Let's get back the rails yes?
How about the Batman's Rouge gallery folks?

About as bad an example as you could want.

Most of them are about ninety percent evil from the start, and Arkham just makes it worse.

[black dragoon]

Have you read their origin stories? Even many are rather tragic in how they came to be. For god's sake all Mr. Freeze wants to do is SAVE HIS TERMINALLY ILL WIFE!

[turkishproverb]

Impose a strict tyrannical automated system that enforces every law? Maybe it was that verse's version of OMAC. O.O god help them all.

IN all fairness, we see him taking out muggers and monitoring the city. the dictatorial behavior is the real issue. He's not even beign psycho omac about it, oddly...


I'd imagine. Let's get back the rails yes?
How about the Batman's Rouge gallery folks?

Mr. Freeze. He starts out stealing to keep himself and his wife alive.

[black dragoon]

Yeah...Thankfully he didn't sic OMAC on them....:smalleek:
Who else is a good example Two-face?
The sad soul who's repressed anger took the form of vicious arrogant lout and eventually became him as he became obsessed with getting vengeance upon the batman?

[turkishproverb]

Yeah...Thankfully he didn't sic OMAC on them....:smalleek:
Who else is a good example Two-face?
The sad soul who's repressed anger took the form of vicious arrogant lout and eventually became him as he became obsessed with getting vengeance upon the batman?

no, because when he starts his criminal career he's still all bloodshed and vengence.

Man Bat would be a good choice. While a bat he's merely a force of nature and while human he just...

is bruce banner.

[black dragoon]

Depending on which continuity you talk to. The Riddler perchance?

[turkishproverb]

Depending on which continuity you talk to. The Riddler perchance?

Guy got bored and started stealing and baiting the cops?

[Setra]

Poison Ivy?
--
In Negima I really was kinda cheering for Chao... though she was supposed to be sympathetic.

On another note, in regards to FFTA. I would like to note that it was implied that those monsters you kill? They used to be people. Sure it's not stated but I personally believe it.

[black dragoon]

Joker in certain aspects. For goodness sake all it took was one very bad day for all of it to happen....:smallfrown:

[kpenguin]

I don't think very many Batman villians fit the trope. While they are sympathetic in many respects, it is hardly fair to the writers to claim that they are the villians simply because they said so.

[chiasaur11]

I don't think very many Batman villians fit the trope. While they are sympathetic in many respects, it is hardly fair to the writers to claim that they are the villians simply because they said so.

Yeah.
You may want them helped AFTER they're beaten, but, well, if they aren't stopped, a LOT of innocent people die.

[black dragoon]

The same can be said be said for many characters though. In truth any time Superman fights in a city I'm surprised there are not more injured.

Even if He is pulling his punches.

[Lord Seth]

Mr. Freeze. He starts out stealing to keep himself and his wife alive.That makes him more of an Anti Villain than a Designated Antagonist, though.

[chiasaur11]

The same can be said be said for many characters though. In truth any time Superman fights in a city I'm surprised there are not more injured.

Even if He is pulling his punches.

Thing is, not only can he stop every casualty between senses and speed, he only fights to stop something that would kill more people. Arkham inmates kill people directly. They're monsters. Some literally.

[Lord_Ganthar]

Orc Lord Ganthar says hi! :smallbiggrin:

[black dragoon]

I agree that many of the Arkham crew are monsters but they were not that way at the start. Look at Killer Croc if I remeber rightly he growing up was mistreated due to his 'condition' and steadily simply gave up on the rest of humanity and began to look out for number one. He was driven to that state.

Also Rhas al' Ghoul wherever Talia was involved.

[chiasaur11]

I agree that many of the Arkham crew are monsters but they were not that way at the start. Look at Killer Croc if I remeber rightly he growing up was mistreated due to his 'condition' and steadily simply gave up on the rest of humanity and began to look out for number one. He was driven to that state.

Also Rhas al' Ghoul wherever Talia was involved.

I never said they started as monsters, only that by the time we (and Batman) get involved they are.

Most villains (Xykon notwithstanding) were decent enough guys once.

The thread is about guys that, as far as we can see, still are.

[black dragoon]

right then how about Catwoman? Certain forms she has been fairly good.

[turkishproverb]

right then how about Catwoman? Certain forms she has been fairly good.

Yes, but in those forms she's usually primarily protaganist

[black dragoon]

true. I could have sworn that other times as a villain she come off more savory than she should have though.

[Mewtarthio]

Okay, I think this needs clarification: Designated Antagonists are not villains that you feel sympathetic towards. Those are simply well-rounded characters (or possibly psychos with a sufficiently dramatic Freudian Excuse). A Designated Antagonist is someone who is considered a villain simply because he opposes the main character: You might, in fact, even consider him to be the Good Guy, but the writers for some reason view him as Evil.

[chiasaur11]

Okay, I think this needs clarification: Designated Antagonists are not villains that you feel sympathetic towards. Those are simply well-rounded characters (or possibly psychos with a sufficiently dramatic Freudian Excuse). A Designated Antagonist is someone who is considered a villain simply because he opposes the main character: You might, in fact, even consider him to be the Good Guy, but the writers for some reason view him as Evil.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Not that, you know, I'm some kind of authority on saying things. A saying things authority, if you will. (I feel I just proved my point.)

[turkishproverb]

Okay, I think this needs clarification: Designated Antagonists are not villains that you feel sympathetic towards. Those are simply well-rounded characters (or possibly psychos with a sufficiently dramatic Freudian Excuse). A Designated Antagonist is someone who is considered a villain simply because he opposes the main character: You might, in fact, even consider him to be the Good Guy, but the writers for some reason view him as Evil.

Yea. Mr Freeze early career qualifies still. HEck, picture this as a story from the protaganists point of view:

A mans wife has a horrible disease, adn in an effort to save her he puts her into stasis.

Shortly afterward, an accident gives him a debilitating condition wheropon he reacts to normal heat as though it were a sweltering and dangerous temperature.

Because of this incident, the company that funded his work decides to pull the plug on his research, and plans to do the same to his wife. he has no recourse in the courts, or in reason.

IN a moment of desperation he uses a flash freezing tool he'd been developing to stop the technicians who come to kill her. He escapes with her but doesn't have the funding to continue her upkeep. He uses his technicall skills to do so, building a cold suit to aid himin moving around, one that requires immensly high cost elements as well. But he needs it to save his wife.

Its the oldest story in the book: How far will a man go for love?

Pure protagonist fodder.

[chiasaur11]

Yea. Mr Freeze early career qualifies still. HEck, picture this as a story from the protaganists point of view:

A mans wife has a horrible disease, adn in an effort to save her he puts her into stasis.

Shortly afterward, an accident gives him a debilitating condition wheropon he reacts to normal heat as though it were a sweltering and dangerous temperature.

Because of this incident, the company that funded his work decides to pull the plug on his research, and plans to do the same to his wife. he has no recourse in the courts, or in reason.

IN a moment of desperation he uses a flash freezing tool he'd been developing to stop the technicians who come to kill her. He escapes with her but doesn't have the funding to continue her upkeep. He uses his technicall skills to do so, building a cold suit to aid himin moving around, one that requires immensly high cost elements as well. But he needs it to save his wife.

Its the oldest story in the book: How far will a man go for love?

Pure protagonist fodder.

Until you start killing innocent people. Then you go to "fallen hero" territory.

[turkishproverb]

Until you start killing innocent people. Then you go to "fallen hero" territory.

I said protaganst material, not that he was a hero. Seperate issue.

[black dragoon]

I've always enjoyed his story because it proves that well...He is a human being. He is willing to go to any length to save his loved one and proves it. At least taht's how it was. Also would Hush count?

[turkishproverb]

I've always enjoyed his story because it proves that well...He is a human being. He is willing to go to any length to save his loved one and proves it. At least taht's how it was. Also would Hush count?

No. Hush was getting revenge on Bruce because his Thomas wayne managed to SAVE one of his parents. He deliberately tried to get his parents killed the night of the car crash, even severed the breakline.

EDIT: For some reason Mr. Freeze reminds me of Le Miserables

[black dragoon]

:smallredface: Sorry my memory is kinda fuzzy. It's been awhile since I've read that series.
I wonder does dang it one of the human green lanterns that or sinestro. They took the yellow ring with good intentions.
really Les Mis? I'd nver see the connection

[kpenguin]

Just because love makes you evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoveMakesYouEvil), you aren't somehow less of a villain.

[turkishproverb]

:smallredface: Sorry my memory is kinda fuzzy. It's been awhile since I've read that series.
I wonder does dang it one of the human green lanterns that or sinestro. They took the yellow ring with good intentions.
really Les Mis? I'd nver see the connection

From Feeze's point of view, batman is an unrepentant version of Javert. Even when Mr freeze isn't killing or stealing, if Batman can find him he will take him to jail.


Just because love makes you evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoveMakesYouEvil), you aren't somehow less of a villain.

Point is, he feels alot less like the bad guy than Batman frequently does. (at least up until his wife actually DIES PERMANENTLY...)

[black dragoon]

Alright it's becoming a little more clear to me.

[Gavin Sage]

In Silver Age, one of Superman's (numerous) powers was a subconscious telepathic field that prevented people from recognizing him when he was disguised as Clark Kent.

These days, they don't even handwave it.

The official theory break down like this. Most of the world doesn't even concieve of Superman as having a secret identity. He's either off stopping volcanoes somewhere or he is brooding in the Fortress of Solitude like Zeus upon Olympus, or something. Not wearing a mask and being as powerful as some 'gods' helps a fair bit. Sometime after COIE apparently Lex Luthor had some minion investigate and discover that Superman was Clark Kent, and Lex REFUSED to believe that someone like Supes could live as a normal man.

That covers everyone who doesn't interact with Supes and Clark as far as I'm concerned. Which leaves the Daily Planet who while maybe more are hardly close friends with Supes and he's gone as soon as he saves the day. Plus Clark gets to pull a Masquerade on them to establish differences. This is more believable in the movies though. And who doesn't know someone that looks like a celebrity?

That leave us with who... Lois and Jimmy as far as routinely interacting with both Superman and Clark Kent. Of those, well Lois not only knows but is has been married to Clark for a decade of our time now. Leaving us with Jimmy who I'll gladly engage some suspension of disbelief on personally. :smallwink:

[chiasaur11]

The official theory break down like this. Most of the world doesn't even concieve of Superman as having a secret identity. He's either off stopping volcanoes somewhere or he is brooding in the Fortress of Solitude like Zeus upon Olympus, or something. Not wearing a mask and being as powerful as some 'gods' helps a fair bit. Sometime after COIE apparently Lex Luthor had some minion investigate and discover that Superman was Clark Kent, and Lex REFUSED to believe that someone like Supes could live as a normal man.

That covers everyone who doesn't interact with Supes and Clark as far as I'm concerned. Which leaves the Daily Planet who while maybe more are hardly close friends with Supes and he's gone as soon as he saves the day. Plus Clark gets to pull a Masquerade on them to establish differences. This is more believable in the movies though. And who doesn't know someone that looks like a celebrity?

That leave us with who... Lois and Jimmy as far as routinely interacting with both Superman and Clark Kent. Of those, well Lois not only knows but is has been married to Clark for a decade of our time now. Leaving us with Jimmy who I'll gladly engage some suspension of disbelief on personally. :smallwink:

Or as most of us put it, Jimmy is... differently intellected.

[Oslecamo]

You do realize that Jimmy gets cloned/mutated/kidnaped every other week, right?

I think it would have something to do with it.

[Green Bean]

From Feeze's point of view, batman is an unrepentant version of Javert. Even when Mr freeze isn't killing or stealing, if Batman can find him he will take him to jail.

I wasn't aware that "but I wasn't killing people when I was arrested" is considered a valid defense. :smallconfused:

[Cheesegear]

I'd have to say that sometimes (very rarely) Magneto sometimes comes across as someone with good intentions. Most other times, he just acts like a monster.

Quicksilver went a bit awry for a while, killing numerous people. Although, it was almost painstakingly clear in Son of M that he was never meant to be bad, so he's not a Designated Antagonist (even if he did kill a bunch of people).

[turkishproverb]

I wasn't aware that "but I wasn't killing people when I was arrested" is considered a valid defense. :smallconfused:

*eyetwitch*

Not my point. The simple fact is that the situation was comprable.

[Kato]

Someone else came to mind....

Alucard's (minor) archnemesis, er... what was the guys name? ^^' Ya know, the priest of the Vatican elite unit. Generally he's just trying to rid the world of evil, as Alucard. He just perceives an immortal, amoral vampire a thread (who can blame him) He's not that sympathic, but still, the series might work from his point of view as good guy as well.

Also, Gundam yet again, ZZ's rival Mashima Sero is nothing but a (little dumb and love driven) soldier, who just wants to captures Haman-samas heart and generally intends to bring a better life to the people by making them join Axis.

I missed the 00 discussion (damn it), but my few points on it...
CB is a lot like DN's Light. They want to stop the evil by killing whoever does it. (Or at least war) There is just the trouble with the guys, who are using CB to take over the world. Therefore - and they are even little better as at least the main Meisters try not to kill their opponents - they are just as 'bad' as Light was, if not less. Of yourse their opponents, which probably have to be considered the antagonists, are simply soldiers, following orders and stopping terrorists. (At least until some of them go crazy and turn it into a personal war with the meisters)

[hanzo66]

You mean Alexander Anderson, I'm taking? Yeah, I do believe he's mostly portrayed as only a Knights Templar when it comes to Undead Killing, otherwise he's shown as a decent man who works in an orphanage and cares for kids.

[Leliel]

...What? Mithos was so far along the Well Intentioned Extremist path he couldn't see the beginning now. Seriously, dooming two worlds to an endless cycle of suffering to resurrect his sister? Plus let's not forget the Desians (you know, the guys who farmed humans to feed them to EXpheres) kinda were in his payroll because to force the world to need a saviour you need someone oppressing it. Plus the whole striping his followers of emotions and senses when angelfying them. Plus, on a more personal layer, being a personal backstabbing bastard that hurt the only person that had trusted him and called him a friend for millenia. Plus...

That's why I said "understanding where the opposition came from" not "thinking he's the good guy". There's a reason for the "Antagonist" part, you know.

[comicshorse]

Samuel L. Jackson's character in 'JUMPER'.

He genuinely believes Jumper's may be good know but with that power they're ALWAYS going to turn bad. ( and he may be right)

And helped he's played by Samuel L. Jackson and so is just cool anyway

[Drascin]

That's why I said "understanding where the opposition came from" not "thinking he's the good guy". There's a reason for the "Antagonist" part, you know.

But the point of designated antagonist is not that they're sympathetic (sympathetic villain's another trope :smalltongue:); it's that they're not really much of a villain, they're mostly antagonists because the writer decided they would be. And anyone who can say with a straight face Mithos wasn't much of a villain obviously has a completely alien mentality to me:smallamused:

[puppyavenger]

I think it's weird this hasn't benn mentioned...

Emperor king Galabrotrax of Eragon Infame

[bosssmiley]

The Empire in K. J. Parker's "Fencer Trilogy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K.J._Parker#The_Fencer_Trilogy)" are classic designated antagonists. After initially being apostrophised as an archetypal evil monolith of scheming mandarins and countless hordes it turns out that they are actually the greatest force for civilisation and orderly rule in later volumes.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think it's weird this hasn't benn mentioned...

Emperor king Galabrotrax of Eragon InfameHe was mentioned a few pages ago, just spelled correctly.

[Hasivel]

Not exactly a traditional Designated Antagonist, but in Love Hina Naru really makes her competition look good and despite knowing she was the designated love interest she's. . . not as good as the other girls. When you find a guy tied up, screaming for help, and another woman peeling his clothes off, the immediate assumption that he's a pervert molesting her doesn't really seem appropriate, even as a running gag. Much less beating the crap out of him for it.