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View Full Version : Comparing Battle Sorcerers and Duskblades.



Tempest Fennac
2008-09-09, 02:28 AM
If you want to play as an Arcane magic-using warrior and you want to avoid multi-classing, which is the better choice out of the Duskblade and the Battle Sorcerer? Also, is the Battle Sorcerer is underpowered compared to the DB, how would you improve it so that it's about as powerful? Both the classes can be found on http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf .

arguskos
2008-09-09, 02:30 AM
I'm giving the Duskblade the edge, merely for Arcane Channeling. That ability allows for some pretty crazy attacks sometimes, and it only gets crazier when you hit level 13 and get Arcane Channeling on full attacks. :smallbiggrin:

Of course, if the party needs a real arcanist, go with Battle Sorcerer (you have a better spell selection in theory). If the party just needs someone to smack stuff till it dies, Duskblade=win.

-argus

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-09, 02:32 AM
Thanks. I was just wondering due to people saying the Battle Sorcerer was even weaker then a normal Sorcerer due to it having even less spells.

BobVosh
2008-09-09, 02:39 AM
Duskblade is a better arcane usine melee class. BS is basically still a sorcerer with a few fixes they should have had.

Alternatively you can try hexblade.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-09, 02:45 AM
What do you mean about the fixes which Sorcerers should have had? Hexblades look interresting, but I don't really like playing that sort of character to be honest (and they don't really have enough spell-casting for my liking).

TheThan
2008-09-09, 03:32 AM
I would say most definitely it’s the Duskblade, the class has everything you need to be a melee caster.
High BAB, good saves, good hit dice, simple and martial weapon proficiency. His spells are a mix of direct damage, buff spells and some general battlefield control, meaning you have just about everything you need (though I admit, there are a few choice spells I wish were on his list).
On top of all that his arcane channeling allows for some really cool combos and some impressive damage.

While the battle sorcerer is more or less just a sorcerer with less spells that can cast in light armor. I’m not too impressed, really. I would just go for the duskblade.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-09, 03:33 AM
Thanks (I'm planning on trying both of the classes out at some point, but I was just curious about what eveyone else thought about the classes. I'd be using Longbow Proficiency for the Battle Sorcerer rather then a melee weapon, though).

BobVosh
2008-09-09, 03:36 AM
What do you mean about the fixes which Sorcerers should have had? Hexblades look interresting, but I don't really like playing that sort of character to be honest (and they don't really have enough spell-casting for my liking).

Battle Sorcerer is what Sorcerer should have been in the first place.

Hexblades are nice, but Duskblade are the better choice as far as "casters" go, I just suggested Hex as I wasn't sure if you wanted "caster" more than "melee."

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-09, 03:42 AM
I'd probably go more for caster to be honest (Duskblades look really fun to play as). Why don't you like normal Sorcerers that much?

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-09-09, 03:48 AM
Duskblade. Full Attack Empowered Vampiric Touch. Suck my 75d6 damage and I gain it as HP. :smalleek:

Frosty
2008-09-09, 03:54 AM
Doesn't work that way. Temporary HP from the same source doesn't stack with itself. You'd get the highest application.

Talic
2008-09-09, 04:02 AM
Well, they're fundamentally different. Completely.

Battle Sorceror, IMO, is an idea full of fail. Extra HP in exchange for spells do nothing without allowing the caster more access to armored casting, and close combat related abilities. Such as what the Duskblade has.

Thus, Battle Sorceror exacerbates the biggest weakness of sorcerors (limited spell selection) without offering anything worthwhile in exchange.

Now, regular sorceror? That's a different ball game. Now you're comparing a fullcaster vs a magically augmented fighter. Entirely different playstyle. If you prefer the up close and personal, go for the gish. If you prefer doing what you do at range, go for the sorceror. I'm usually a range person. My personal preference. But, a well made duskblade can rival a melee oriented cleric for a time. Granted, in the end, such a cleric can typically just out heal the gish, but they have comparable defensive and offensive capabilities, although they're different.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-09, 04:13 AM
How would you improve Battle Sorcerers so that they aren't as weak, Talic?

Saph
2008-09-09, 04:29 AM
Battle Sorcerers compare okay to Duskblades if combined with some other classes and played to a high enough level. A fairly effective build I've always wanted to try is Paladin 2/Battle Sorcerer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Battle Sorcerer 8.

However, in general a Duskblade does the same job more easily, with the added bonus that you don't have to wait to get to highish levels to do cool stuff. And if you're going to rule out multi-classing then obviously the Duskblade is way better.

- Saph

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-09, 04:32 AM
What exactly do Spellswords do? That build could be interresting (sadly, it would lose 2 Caster Levels due to the Paladin dip).

only1doug
2008-09-09, 04:35 AM
my current build is a duskblade5/wizard1/abjurant champion5(wizard spells)

duskblade 5 grants access to abjurant champion, wizard 1 means you now take your caster levels in abjurant champion as wizard levels giving you wizard 6 at L11.

there is a valid argument for doing this duskblade 4 wizard 2 and using precosious apprentice for the qualifier to abjurant champion.... i'll leave that choice to you.

pick a draconic subtype altenate race and the class feature dragonscale husk.
this gives you an armour bonus 7 with energy resistance 5 / cold, fire, electricity and acid that doesn't have a spellfailure chance. (not taking duskblade 5 loses the energy resistance) you can sleep in your dragonscale husk without penalty, if you lose it the husk will grow back in 8 hrs.

at L11 you have a wizard caster level of 11, spells / day as a 7th level wizard (3rd level spells), awesome shield bonus to AC (+9) from the standard shield spell and all your abjuration spells have double duration and most of them cast as a swift action. you also have duskblade caster level of 5 (2nd level spells) both your caster classes use Int.

I chose this route as wizard progresses through spell levels much faster than duskblade with a far wider choice of spells, without wasting any levels in base wizard which frankly is quite sucky.

this build has some cheese factor which is hopefully offset by the fact that you are playing a gish, a pure wizard at L11 would have 6th level spells, a pure duskblade would only have 3rd level (but some nice class features using them).

I chose some reserve feats as part of my build, i've heard that they are sub-par but clap of thunder works nicely for a gish imo. (have a sonic spell in reserve, gain touch attack 1d8/caster level of uncast spell)

Play this build if you plan to self / group buff then melee, go pure duskblade if you wish to cast offensively during melee.

Hal
2008-09-09, 05:39 AM
Arcane Channeling and Armored Casting certainly give the Duskblade a leg up. The only real problem Duskblades face is a stunted selection of spells. Their spells only go up to 5th level, and what they have is limited in nature anyhow (small selection, and you can only pick one new spell each level).

Talic
2008-09-09, 05:48 AM
How would you improve Battle Sorcerers so that they aren't as weak, Talic?

Depends on the theme. Would you say that the Battle Sorceror was supposed to be a front line caster? A gish? A back line variant on standard casting? Each would be designed differently, and each could incorporate bonus HP into an effective design.

AstralFire
2008-09-09, 06:03 AM
Well, they're fundamentally different. Completely.

Battle Sorceror, IMO, is an idea full of fail. Extra HP in exchange for spells do nothing without allowing the caster more access to armored casting, and close combat related abilities. Such as what the Duskblade has.

Eh? Battle Sorc has all the armored casting you need. It does lack close-combat related abilities, though.

I do agree with others that you could add the Battle Sorc's bonuses without removing any of the normal Sorc's comparative abilities and you'd end up fine.

Duskblade is the stronger single class, but Battle Sorc, if you're willing to comb for feats and spells across 3.5, is the superior base for a multiclass.

Starbuck_II
2008-09-09, 06:07 AM
What exactly do Spellswords do? That build could be interresting (sadly, it would lose 2 Caster Levels due to the Paladin dip).

Spellswords lower Arcane spell failure with all armors. Say you wore Mithral Chain Shirt add in 2 spell sword levels = 10% -10=0%.

If have access to Item Compenduim add in Twilight so you can make Mithral Breastplate have 0% ASF after adding the 2 spell sword levels.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-09, 06:34 AM
Thanks for the explanation. Playing as a Battle Sorcerer using the normal Sorcerer's spell progression could be interresting (I tend to see them as full casters with some combat abilities).

Darrin
2008-09-09, 06:49 AM
Arcane Channeling and Armored Casting certainly give the Duskblade a leg up. The only real problem Duskblades face is a stunted selection of spells. Their spells only go up to 5th level, and what they have is limited in nature anyhow (small selection, and you can only pick one new spell each level).

You can fix the spell progression with Bard 1/Duskblade 9/Sublime Chord 2/Abj. Champ 5/Something Else X. You lose out on Arcane Channeling, but can pick up 9th level spells.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-09, 06:52 AM
How would that work? (I'm not familiar with Sublime Chords.)

only1doug
2008-09-09, 06:58 AM
Spellswords lower Arcane spell failure with all armors. Say you wore Mithral Chain Shirt add in 2 spell sword levels = 10% -10=0%.

If have access to Item Compenduim add in Twilight so you can make Mithral Breastplate have 0% ASF after adding the 2 spell sword levels.

1 level of spellsword grants the reduced spell failure chance (and +1 BAB and +1 caster level, spells known etc)
the 1st level of spellsword is made of win.
the 2nd level of spellsword is made of lose. (i forget the features, but you don't get a caster level, your spellfailure in armour doesn't improve, don't bother unless you really need the next 10% from L3)

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-09, 07:06 AM
To be honest, I'd only be interrested in using light armour (medium armour honestly doesn't seem to be worth it unless you're willing and able to spend money on Mithril Full Plate).

Eldariel
2008-09-09, 07:23 AM
Sublime Chord has its own spell progression, just requiring Bardic Music and level 3 spells to get into, so Sublime Chord is good for "replacing" a lackluster progression and getting into 9 in 10 as long as you've got level 3s. Of course, it still requires 10 levels, so no Duskblade 13s or you're kissing level 9 magic goodbye.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-09, 07:25 AM
Which book is it in? I'll see if I can find it later.

Eldariel
2008-09-09, 07:27 AM
Complete Arcane.

weenie
2008-09-09, 07:30 AM
Duskblade. Full Attack Empowered Vampiric Touch. Suck my 75d6 damage and I gain it as HP. :smalleek:

Full attack arcane channeling affects each target once. So you could hit as many targets as you have attacks in a round with your touch spells, but even if you hit a target more than once, it still gets affected by the spell once only.

With enough splatbooks Battle Sorcerers are actually stronger than Duskblades. They have access to the best spell list out there and even if they don't get lots of spells, they can still pick the best ones. Picking multifunction spells is the key here. Lightning leap from Complete Mage is a perfect example. Duskblades are a bit awkward at level 6-12, because you can full attack or arcane channel, but you can't do both. And multi/prestige classing is not such a good idea either, because then you have to wait even more to get full attack channeling, and regular channeling pretty much sucks at high levels. There would have been nothing wrong in giving duskblades full attack arcane channeling at lvl 6 in my opinion.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-09, 07:32 AM
I ended up drawing up a list of spells which I'd give a Battle Sorcerer a while back. Please could I see the list you'd pick if you were playing one without any PrCs, weenie?

Blackfang108
2008-09-09, 08:35 AM
Arcane Channeling and Armored Casting certainly give the Duskblade a leg up. The only real problem Duskblades face is a stunted selection of spells. Their spells only go up to 5th level, and what they have is limited in nature anyhow (small selection, and you can only pick one new spell each level).

But, some of the 5th level spells are higher levels for S/Ws

Polar Ray: Dusk 5, Sor/Wiz 8

Disintegrate, Chain Lightning: Dusk 5, Sor/Wiz 6.

so, although the actual spell levels don't go over 5, you get some pretty powerful spells at a lower spell slot.

(I was also able to argue Touch of Chaos from Exemplars of Evil. Useful spell, even if it is Chaotic Evil.)


Spellswords lower Arcane spell failure with all armors. Say you wore Mithral Chain Shirt add in 2 spell sword levels = 10% -10=0%.

If have access to Item Compenduim add in Twilight so you can make Mithral Breastplate have 0% ASF after adding the 2 spell sword levels.


Of course, having Armored Mage(Medium) as a Duskblade completely removes the use of Twilight or the Spellsword unless you're using Heavy armors. (which no arcane caster in their right mind would.) Mithril's still nice because of the lower AC penalty and speed penalties, as well as higher max dex (if applicable)

Keep in mind is the + to overcome spell resistance after you've wacked something.

Also, the Quickened spells for Duskblade. As the Quicken Metamagic doesn't work for spontaneous casters, it comes in handy.

Eldariel
2008-09-09, 08:48 AM
Except Polar Ray and Chain Lightning are by no means worth their spell level. They just do nothing compared to the power of the strong level 6/8 spells; level 4-5 is about the maximum you'd want to pay for them (seriously, nobody ever casts Chain Lightning or Polar Ray). And if you're a Gish, why would you not take a level of Spellsword? You lose nothing and gain armored casting of sorts - sure, there are better classes out there, but the one level dip benefit is nothing to look down upon.

Rad
2008-09-09, 08:50 AM
At low levels the duskblade will definitely win; at higher levels any combo that gives you high level spells turns out better though. Besides the sorcadin there are many other possible builds; many even use eldritch knight after abjurant champion to get to 9th level spells and 4 attacks per round.
Naturally then you just get a few actual sorcerer levels, meaning that the greatest bonus of being a battle sorcerer (high BAB) is gone while the spell restriction still applies to you so many people would rather use standard sorcerer instead.

weenie
2008-09-09, 09:25 AM
Here are a few I considered taking when playing in a solo campaign with a blaster battle sorcerer:

lvl1:
true strike
shield
grease

lvl2:
Sonic weapon
Dimension hop
mirror image
wraithstrike

lvl3:
haste
vampiric touch
dragonskin

lvl4:
black tentacles
thunderlance
orb of X

lvl5:
mud to rock
lightning leap

lvl6:
stone body

lvl7:
ironguard
stun ray

lvl8:
irresistible dance

lvl9:
black blade of disaster

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-09, 09:31 AM
Thanks for posting the list. I'd probably go with:

0
Prestigitation
Ghost Sound
Mending
Detect Magic
Caltrops Touch of Fatigue
Light
Mage Hand
Read Magic

1
Colour Spray (replace with Silent Image at level 6)
Ray of Enfeeblement
True Strike
Fist of Stone

2
Glitterdust
Mirror Image
Scorching Ray (Replace with Hideous Laughter when Orb of Force learnt.)
Powerword: Sicken.

3
Stinking Cloud (replace with Mestil's Acid Breath when Freezing Fog is learnt)
Slow (or Haste)
Bands of Steel (Replace with Fly when Baleful Ploymorph is learnt)

4
Black Tentacles (or Polymorph)
Greater Invisibility (or Enervation)
Orb of Force

5
Freezing Fog
Baleful Polymorph
Cloudkill

6
Disintegrate
Stone to Flesh

7
Waves of Exhaustion
Spell Turning (or Powerword: Blind)

8
Maze
Otto's Irresistable Dance

9
Maw of Chaos (Or Sphere of Ahniallation.)
Hold Monster Mass

I was just looking at Sublime Chord. I probably wouldn't use it due to the prequisites, but it sounds like a good PrC (I don't think I'd use it with anything other then a straight Bard due to needing the skill points, though).

Leon
2008-09-10, 09:24 AM
Battle Sorcerer has the distinction having of been around far longer than Duskblade.

I like both to a degree but favor Battle Sorcerers more due to the link they a share with one of my Favorite classes

Blackfang108
2008-09-10, 10:10 AM
Except Polar Ray and Chain Lightning are by no means worth their spell level. They just do nothing compared to the power of the strong level 6/8 spells; level 4-5 is about the maximum you'd want to pay for them (seriously, nobody ever casts Chain Lightning or Polar Ray). And if you're a Gish, why would you not take a level of Spellsword? You lose nothing and gain armored casting of sorts - sure, there are better classes out there, but the one level dip benefit is nothing to look down upon.

youll notice I said "for the Duskblade" in regards to the Spellsword.

The duskblade Ignores ASF in Light armor from the get go, and as time goes on, ignore it in Medium armors and for shields. so I really don't see why a lower ASF % is worthwhile for them, except at low levels.

Crow
2008-09-10, 02:02 PM
Duskblade is better at low levels. Battle Sorcerer is better at high levels. That's all there is to it.

Keld Denar
2008-09-10, 03:16 PM
Thanks for posting the list. I'd probably go with:

1
Colour Spray (replace with Silent Image at level 6)
Ray of Enfeeblement
True Strike
Fist of Stone


Hmmm, I'd swap out Fist of Stone with Benign Transposition from Spell Compendium after you get your +2 str item. BT is awesome for getting where you need to go, especially if you keep your familiar (bonus if it flies). Since FoS is an enhancement bonus, it won't stack with more permanent magic items, and the bonus from it is just not good enough to be casting in combat mid-late game compared to other spells you'll be casting.

Seriously, this spell is GREAT!

Also, look into Whirling Blade (Spell Compendium) for 2nd level. Since its entirely weapon based damage, its a great alternative to energy based blasting, especially if you have a big shiney sword and a few weapon related feats like Power Attack. Really fun with abilities like Arcane Channeling, Spell Storing weapons, or the Suel Arcanamach's Dispelling Strike feature.

FMArthur
2008-09-10, 04:07 PM
Don't they focus on entirely different things, anyway? A Battle Sorcerer can still be doing the same things as a Sorcerer, just fewer times and then they can fall back on mediocre combat skills. I don't think that using a Battle Sorcerer in melee combat is a good use of his abilities, with his only medium BAB and limited weapon proficiencies (light and one-handed martial weapons), but the important part is that a Battle Sorcerer is superior to a normal Sorcerer defensively. He has a d8 HD instead of a d4, and can equip light armor. I don't think a Battle Sorcerer is an equal balance between magical and physical combat, and it's still very much a Sorcerer. It's just safer, that's all.

A Duskblade, however, gets full BAB, good Fort Saves in addition to Will, and also gets a d8 HD, can progress from Light Armor to Medium, and can use all martial weapons/shields. He takes a gigantic hit to his casting for gaining all of this, and progresses very slowly up to 5th level spells, which is the maximum for Duskblades. Looking at the Duskblade spell list, you'll see it's mostly things to be used in combat, with a lot of them just being damage and a couple buffs/control spells. It's a tiny list. The ability to cast touch spells alongside an attack is also very supportive of the melee combatant role, and notice that it's any touch spell you know, which leads to some nice combinations with more focused casting classes, often the Battle Sorcerer. But going straight Duskblade, it is farther away from a straight caster, in terms of effects, than a Swordsage.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that the Battle Sorcerer is a caster with better defenses and last-resort combat skills, and a Duskblade is just a melee combatant with a few spells to augment that specific role. To get the true middleman, who is good at both magical and physical combat, you really just need to work your way into Abjurant Champion and Eldritch Knight as soon as you can, or you will wind up being a good caster and a terrible combatant, a good combatant and a terrible caster, or a terrible caster and a terrible combatant at worst. Also consider Clerics, and transformation-focused builds of Druids and Wizards. A Swordsage might suit you if Duskblade is only slightly too much melee and not enough casting (even though Swordsages don't technically cast), since they get a large variety of useful effects/attacks.

Chronos
2008-09-10, 05:24 PM
Quoth Darrin:
You can fix the spell progression with Bard 1/Duskblade 9/Sublime Chord 2/Abj. Champ 5/Something Else X. You lose out on Arcane Channeling, but can pick up 9th level spells.Why two levels of Sublime Chord, instead of just one?

Alternately, you could go with something like Duskblade 13/Bard 1/Sublime Chord (and PrCs that advance it) 6. You'd miss out on ninth-level spells, but you'd keep full-attack channel, and still have more spellcasting than a pure Duskblade.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-10, 05:28 PM
Duskblade 3 / (specialist) Wizard / Ultimate Magus?

Not the most powerful combination, but certainly fun.

Thurbane
2008-09-10, 09:36 PM
PrCs, particularly Abjurant Champion, Dragonlsayer, and Spellsword can really help a Battle Sorc compete with a DB. There aren't many (any?) PrCs that really help out the Duskblade.

The Spellshield variant in Dungeonscape is pretty sweet for BS as well.

Speaking for myself, I would prefer the BS for the versatility of spells.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-11, 12:04 AM
Thanks for pointing that out, Keld. I don't like the idea of Whirling Blade due to how I'd be using a Longbow rather then a melee weapon. Also, I'd sooner avoid all the PrCs to be honest *I think only 2 SC levels are needed due to Abjurant hampion being able to carry on the SC spell progression).

Bosh
2008-09-11, 05:00 AM
With any non-specialist (like Battle Sorcerers and Duskblades) the biggest issue is time. If you're good at A and good at B but can't use them both at once you're going to suck. The way to make these classes work is find a way to make their abilities complement each other.

With Duskblades that's easy, your spells go off when you wack someone.

For Battle Sorcerers its a bit harder. Basically you want spells that take advantage of your better defense and BaB. So what you basically want are:
-Combat buffs (true strike + power attack is gold).
-Swift spells (there's a bunch in the Spell Compendium) so you can do something and then wack someone with a sword.
-Mobility-enhancing spells so you can get within range (the transposition spells are great fun).
-Touch spells.

I'd be a bit leery of all but the most powerful rays unless you want to go all out as a ray specialist, unless you really want to focus on dex. Touch spells are better since you can use strength on them and strength on a nice big sword and they're mostly more powerful since most wizards don't dare getting on the front line.

So basically with Battle Sorcerer what you want is a nice big two handed weapon and mostly spells that improve your ability to use that nice big two handed weapon. Otherwise you get no synergy.

weenie
2008-09-11, 05:03 AM
Duskblade 3 / (specialist) Wizard / Ultimate Magus?

Not the most powerful combination, but certainly fun.

This could work to some degree in gestalt, otherwise you just weaken the wizard part and lose too much HP & BAB to be still considered a gish.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-11, 05:07 AM
This could work to some degree in gestalt, otherwise you just weaken the wizard part and lose too much HP & BAB to be still considered a gish.

Ah, but the point is that you aren't a gish - you are a wizard that channels spells. Note that the duskblade ability also works with arcane spells from other classes; I'm sure there's some fun combos here.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-11, 05:16 AM
Also, Battle Sorcerers normally only get a proficiency with 1 one-handed or light melee weapon, so a 2-handed weapon would require them to have automatic proficiency unless you were willing to spend a feat on getting that feature. Also, having high Str may not be practical depending on your character's stats.

Rad
2008-09-11, 05:19 AM
PrCs, particularly Abjurant Champion, Dragonlsayer, and Spellsword can really help a Battle Sorc compete with a DB. There aren't many (any?) PrCs that really help out the Duskblade.

The Spellshield variant in Dungeonscape is pretty sweet for BS as well.

Speaking for myself, I would prefer the BS for the versatility of spells.

If you do get PrCs there's little point in being a battle sorcerer to begin with. You lose the benefit of medium BAB since you'd use the PrC's one instead and armors with 0% ASF are not that hard to come by and a couple points of AC are absolutely worth more spells known. All sorcerer-based gish builds I saw used standard sorcerer over BS for this reason.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-11, 05:22 AM
Abjurant Champion would actually be good for a Battle Sorcerer due to it basically granting slightly more AC with not spellcasting level-loss. I'm not sure about the others, though.

Leon
2008-09-11, 05:23 AM
Duskblades have a good selection of spells but are still limited with a select list. Where as a Battle Sorcerer has access to any spell that a Sorcerer has and that is a very big list, while that may or may not have good spells its much more open to personal choice over the Duskblade's list

Darrin
2008-09-11, 06:44 AM
Quoth Darrin:Why two levels of Sublime Chord, instead of just one?


Song of arcane power can be useful. You also don't lose anything you need as a gish: +1 caster level, +1 BAB.

The tricky part is the skill requirements (Perform 10, Know Arcane 13, Listen 13), although Flexible Mind or Skill Knowledge can help there.