Tips for breaking up dog fighting?

[Ego Slayer]

Or, well... 6mo. old puppy fighting?

As I've said before, my family currently has three puppies in the house. They're all sisters. The one we initially took, Maggie, is super alpha, and when we took the other two not long after Molly took beta and poor picked on Polly was given omega. :P

Well, now I think Molly is going to fight for the alpha spot. And dear gods did they ever fight like all hell this morning. Mum had already been awake and was trying to break them up (and got bit in the process). The fighting woke me up and she and I managed to break them apart. I don't know how fighting puppies will go, but they pretty much looked like they were going to kill each other. :smalleek: They've fought infinite times before, but it was never so bad that we couldn't break it up easily enough. (The only other really bad one was between Maggie and the 4th puppy, a male which my uncle has.)

((I believe one of their previous fights involved being drenched with the garden hose, and they still didn't exactly stop. o.O))

A friend of mine is going to come and see Molly and Polly friday and possibly take one (because having three puppies is too much... well, have one very good puppy (Maggie) and two who have a habit of taking ANYTHING they please and chewing it to shreds is a bit much :smallyuk:). We were struggling with which one we'd want to give up. Polly (who is seriously the most beautiful dog I've ever seen) was probably going to go, but after this morning we're wondering if Molly should be the one to go. Weeks ago I swayed from my "keep them all!" position to "keep Maggie only!!" Though I'd feel guilty, it's probably best that the other two get proper Not-everything-is-a-toy training (how many times do you have to tell them "no" before you've said it too much? :smallyuk:) and a home.

Anyway...

Would you keep two to-be adult dogs if they fought that hard as puppies?

Deadly puppies-fights: Y/N?

Good ways to break up a fight? I know it's 200% more dangerous to break up an adult dog fight, but...

Thoughts on training (shock) collars?

They're coming up on needing to be spayed. Would this calm them down any bit?

[Rare Pink Leech]

I think in order to better answer your question I have to ask a question of my own: have you ever owned dogs before? For people who have little to no experience with dogs, it can often seem like dogs are trying to kill each other when really they are only playing or asserting dominance. It can get rough, with them biting at each other, growling really viciously, raising their hackles, etc., but most of the time it isn't as bad as it seems to people who aren't used to it. I'd suggest inviting someone over who is really experienced with dogs and letting them see how the puppies fight, since conveying what is an acceptable amount of fighting over the internet is difficult.

As to your questions:

Would you keep two to-be adult dogs if they fought that hard as puppies? If you really want both dogs and are willing to put a lot of energy into taking care of them, I'd say yes. First time dog owners (not sure if you are or not, but from your questions I suspect you are) can be very surprised at how much work it takes to own a dog. Two dogs increases the work exponentially. Having multiple dogs means they're going to jostle for position frequently. Getting them formal training helps.

Deadly puppies-fights: Y/N? I'm not actually sure what you're asking here. If you're asking if puppies fighting is normal, then yes. That's part of their development. Whether or not they're "deadly" is tough to say, which goes back to my suggestion of bringing in someone who knows dogs.

Good ways to break up a fight? I know it's 200% more dangerous to break up an adult dog fight, but... Do. Not. Break. Up. A. Fight. Between. Adult. Dogs. Even if they are only playing, and the dog would never bite you normally, getting between two dogs is very dangerous and not recommended.

That said, I know people (including myself) who will physically try to break up a couple of dogs if they go at it too long or too frequently. It's one of those "do as I say, not as I do" things, because it is still a stupid thing to do, and carries the risk of getting bitten. I wouldn't suggest trying it if you are inexperienced with dogs, but I'm sure experience with dogs doesn't make it as safe as I think it does.

If you must, either use a long object (like a broom) to separate them (don't actually get them). Getting them trained helps, because you can just yell at them to break it up, and it will often work, even if you have to say it a few times so they can get the fight out of their system.

Thoughts on training (shock) collars? Personally, I'm not a fan of them, but they can be useful as long as you don't shock the poor thing to death. Just don't use it as a standard training tool for every dog. From my limited experience (I have a cousin who had to use one) it should only be used on really out-of-control dogs who do not respond to any other sort of training.

They're coming up on needing to be spayed. Would this calm them down any bit? It might calm them down a bit, but not much. Really what you're experiencing is the abundance of puppy energy, and that will last until they're 2-3 years old.

I'll offer one last piece of advice: I'm not a dog expert, even though I have experience with dogs. Buy/borrow books on dogs, or find breeder's websites or something like that, so you can get advice from real dog experts.

[dish]

Anyway...

Would you keep two to-be adult dogs if they fought that hard as puppies?

Deadly puppies-fights: Y/N?

Good ways to break up a fight? I know it's 200% more dangerous to break up an adult dog fight, but...

Thoughts on training (shock) collars?

They're coming up on needing to be spayed. Would this calm them down any bit?

I've got more experience with cats than dogs. I have raised several puppies, but none of them were siblings, and they never fought this badly. Thus, I'm not really an expert here, and you should probably ask someone more qualified.

1. My guess is once the pecking order is sorted out the fighting will calm down. (Doesn't mean you should keep two, mind.)

2. What kind of injuries are they giving each other? A few light scratches or some ripped out fur is one thing. Serious injuries are another. (One of my great-aunt's dogs put her other dog's eye out.) Even when the fighting sounds terrible, if the injuries are only superficial then it's probably not as serious as you feel it is.

3. I had small dogs, so was able to deal with fights by picking one of them up. So, no advice there I'm afraid.

4. I've never used shock collars. My advice about training is just to be as patient and consistent as you can. (If the puppies are small enough, a great punishment is to stick one on top of a bookcase or other high spot for a few minutes. This worked remarkably well on one of my dogs.)

5. There is a decent chance that spaying will help them to calm down. Mainly, though, they calm as they get older.

What breed are they?

Edit: having read Rare Pink Leech above, I would just like to clarify a couple of points. When I say that I stop dog fights by picking one of the dogs up, I was referring to when two of my own Pekingese dogs were fighting. (They were young, they were sorting out the pecking order. It happens.) I wouldn't have done it with a bigger dog, or if a strange dog was involved.

Also, I do want to emphasise that, unless the dogs are really hurting each other (and a bit of flying fur never hurt anybody) - it's probably fine.

[Krrth]

First off, I would liek tostate that I am not a dog expert, so please take any advice as just that....advice.

One thing my family has done to settle these fights is to simply pick which dog will be the alpha. Make sure that dog gets fed first, gets treats first, an so on. Assuming you've asserted yourself as the pack alpha (if not, do so), they should settle down for the most part.
Otherwise, you have a few options. Your vet may perscribe medication to calm them down if it is a real problem, although they do not like to do this.
You may end up giving one or more of your dogs away.

[Ego Slayer]

I've never dealt with puppies before. My family had a dog for a long time before she died a few years back. My mum was the trainer of the dog, and had many other dogs when she was young.

As far as the seriousness of fighting... well, yeah, you'd have to see it to know how bad it was, and that it was much different than the way we see them "play fight." This wasn't their standard pinning-and-snarling routine, we let that go... that's play. If what just happened also play fighting... it sure as hell doesn't look like it. When they fight like that neither of them are pinned, they're pretty much up and at each other's throats and are much more vocal. We let the play fighting go because, yeah... they're puppies and that's what they do, but they far crossed the "we're just playing!" line this morning.

@ Dish: They're Black Lab and some type of cur or cattle dog...grandparents were Black lab types, mother was a... yellow lab and chow (tiny little dog for having lab in her), father was the cattle dog.

And @ RPL - Yeah... I know getting between adult dogs is a big no-no. Seen it before.

So maybe those 10ft poles really DO have a use.

[Tempest Fennac]

In regards to neutering them, I did a lot of research into this a while back, and it's pretty much a game of Russian Roulette in regards to both health problems and whether it will solve the fighting problem. If you want me to try and get them to stop, please could you PM me?

[Charity]

Have you got any firearms?
How about explosives?

[Rare Pink Leech]

In response to one of dish's comments above: definitely never try to break up a fight if one of the dogs is a strange dog. That's just plain stupid. Breaking up a fight between two dogs you know well is still a risk, but a calculated one. If there's a strange dog involved, you're just asking for trouble.

In response to Ego Slayer's comments about how her dogs fight: it still sounds like they're fighting for play and to establish dominance. You'd be really surprised how much dogs can ramp up the violence and still only be play fighting.

Has your mom owned multiple dogs at once before? If not, I'd really suggest bringing someone over who has experience with multiple dogs at once. While a dog fight can be startling, unless they're getting seriously injured, like dish said, then it really is fine. My cousin has two dogs, and they go for each other's throats all the time, but after a minute or so of fighting, they go back to being best friends, curling up together and everything (and they're not even related).

Edit: do any of the dogs yelp when fighting? Dogs will give off a really loud, high-pitched yelp when something has gone too far.

[Dallas-Dakota]

The one we initially took, Maggie,
You named your pupy, after Magtok?:smallconfused::smalltongue:

[Ego Slayer]

My mum just walked into the room and when I reiterated what you said about it being rough play, she pretty much said "ohhh... no effin' way." :P I wasn't there for the whole thing, but even I heard the crying from one of them, at one point. I still see a massive gap between their usual rough play and this. They weren't yelping, snarling and crying like anything before.

I'd also like to mention that the mother (which I imagine was because of the chow) was a killer rabid thing... She was pretty much ready to kill a friend's dog (who we were dog-sitting), first time she saw her and my mum literally had to beat her away.

And even if this was "play" the point is still that it's not to be tolerated. Not at that level and something needs to be done if we're to keep both of them.

Edit: Where they yelping. Holy $&*@, I've never heard them yelp and cry so loud. It's not the singular yelp when they play and someone gets bit badly and they break up on their own... they screamed and snarled and would not give up.

She's had multiple adult dogs before, but they never fought, or never so hard that it was worth mentioning.

[mangosta71]

Dogs are like children, in that different individuals will respond to different forms of discipline. There's no ultimate answer that anyone can give you. One might respond to getting whacked on the nose with a newspaper. You may have to limit one's food to get through to him/her. A shock collar might work for another. Putting one on top of a high shelf was mentioned. You'll have to experiment until you find what works best.

[Ego Slayer]

One thing my family has done to settle these fights is to simply pick which dog will be the alpha. Make sure that dog gets fed first, gets treats first, an so on. Assuming you've asserted yourself as the pack alpha (if not, do so), they should settle down for the most part.
Just did some reason in the interwebs, and see that you're rather right about this.

From what I read, with multiple dogs, you can easily mess up their pack order. Because Maggie is so alpha, she's often pushed away when another pup is getting attention because she stomps over and it unhappy with the situation, and thus the alpha has to put the other in it's place much more strongly than usual. Which, when you have three pups, is hard to balance. It's dominance fighting, not dominance 'play', and apparently gets just as serious as it did this morning... we try to give them equal attention and that backfires when you have a second dog there, at the time.

Guess that would be why this is happening worse than it had before, because if Molly is getting attention and Maggie brings her bossy butt over, she sometimes gets pushed back if she starts nipping/wanting to play with the other. She's been faulted too often because she's bossy. She'll even nudge around one of the others if you're scolding them for something.

[dish]

Black lab/cattle dog means they're much bigger than the dogs I'm used to dealing with. :smalleek:

It's also rather worrying when you say that the mother had a nasty streak in her. One of the reasons we're always told to ask to see the mother dog when chosing a puppy is so we can avoid one with a bad temperament (apparently these things can be inherited).

I will echo Krrrth. I once had two dogs who were having pecking order issues. I also dealt with it by giving preferential treatment to one of the dogs (the one I'd had longest) she got more attention from me, and was always dealt with first. The problems sorted themselves out quite soon after I did that.

[Krrth]

Black lab/cattle dog means they're much bigger than the dogs I'm used to dealing with. :smalleek:

It's also rather worrying when you say that the mother had a nasty streak in her. One of the reasons we're always told to ask to see the mother dog when chosing a puppy is so we can avoid one with a bad temperament (apparently these things can be inherited).

I will echo Krrrth. I once had two dogs who were having pecking order issues. I also dealt with it by giving preferential treatment to one of the dogs (the one I'd had longest) she got more attention from me, and was always dealt with first. The problems sorted themselves out quite soon after I did that.

They can indeed pass these traits along. As for the size....last time my dog got into a real fight, I picked his furry butt up. It's funny how quickly they calm down when someone bigger than them picks 'em up and puts them on the ground belly up (he's around 80, I'm around 200). I do NOT recommend doing this with a strange dog.

To the OP. I hope it helps. Let me know how it turns out. If not, I can always ask my sister (she's a vet) for advice the next time I see her.

[Ego Slayer]

Well, I'm not sure how big the cattle dogs are, but labs aren't huge dogs, as pure-breeds I don't think. The mother was really small, though. We're hoping, since it seems the pups can revert to their grandparents, that they don't have much, if any, of the chow in them. They don't really look like her, though, so we just took them assuming we could break any habits. Granted, though, the mother wasn't trained very well, and we didn't expect to take two more, after the initial one. Who is pretty damn smart so far.

As for knowing this beforehand? The mother was one of my uncle's dogs... who I saw all too often. And she ate some of my chickens and ducks when I was 12. :smallyuk:

Probably doesn't sound like the best pick for a dog, but it was either take them, or my uncle was going to take them into Cleveland and they'd be some poor suburban family's guard dog. :smallyuk: They're too damn cute for that.

[Ilena]

Well we have 2 dogs, a golden retreiver, and a black retreiver, both females, the black one (kelly) bites abby when you throw the ball for abby but its not really aggressive, but i think the reason they havent had any problems is because when they were younger mom always delt with them if they needed punishing, they run to the doghouse if shes yellin at them if they have been bad :P, so shes basicly alpha as far as i see it with them, thus they are both subordinants and dont cause problems, more or less the same thing with any animal including humans, just my point of view/ idea to add in here

[Raiser Blade]

I had two dogs a few years back and the fought for a few days but then one established himself as the "alpha" and everything calmed down. They got along great after that.

Also I would say no the shock collar idea. Never liked the things personally.

[ocato]

I had this problem when I was younger, and here is what my dad did.

Roll both/all of them on their backs, especially when they get all fighty-fidgety. They hate it but it doesn't hurt them. Hold them like that for a few. It makes you dominant. Then, when they start fighting, holler at them. Deep, loud voice. No "guysss stop!" You have to get their attention. Typically they'll go "oh dip!" and stop (or at least be startled enough to be pulled apart). Now, this is my memory of how my dad did it. It is not the licensed professional opinion and when it comes to dogs, it's probably not the PC opinion either (I swear, people who look sideways at their dogs have a worse social stigma than spouse abusers it seems).

[Supagoof]

Establish yourself as Alpha. Period. Once you do that, you should be able to just shout at them to get them to behave.

When they are acting good, reward them for good behavior.
When they are doing something you don't want them to do - redirect them.
And when they don't respond to redirection - some form of punishment. Be it seperation, a firm hand, a time-out, or a shock collar.

The biggest thing is to identify to them immediately what they are doing is not approved. If you wait 15 minutes to punish, they'll have forgotten what they've done wrong and wonder why they are being punished.

"No" needs to become a word they learn to stop whatever it is they are doing. You may need to find a way to force the understanding on them.

"Sit" and "Lie Down" are good commands for re-direction. Be careful with "down" though. Sometimes people use it to tell them to get down (like if the paws are on the counter) rather then lie down. A better command is "Off" for when you want them to keep their 4 paws planted and save "down" for them to lie down. And reward them when they do as told. Nothing gets a puppies attention more then knowing if they do as you say a treat's coming.

Pavlovian works. Establish yourself as Alpha, because no matter what ranking they take between themselves, you need to have the final say.

As for my experience with dogs, I've grown up with 7 of them. Raised 2 of them from puppies to old age, and have 2 right now. I've used a shock collar on one of them as the last resort, and it's very effective but not something I'd recommend. He was past puppyhood when we got him from the shelter, and had a world of bad habits that took some time to break. We no longer need it now, but for awhile there. Well, anyway.

Good luck! and Post Pictures!

[Winter_Wolf]

I used to be a dog breeder. I speak from experience and a lot of studying on the matter. I could probably write a very long report on the subject, but do yourself a favor, buy some books about dogs and read them all. Noticed that you said one of the dogs was part Chow-chow. So, while all the of the following is sound advice, Chows do not get along with other breeds. It's genetic, and you could possibly train it out of them, you'd be better off finding homes for a couple of the puppies. Unless you've only got one male and one female, there will be fights.

Don't bother with shock collars. The breeds you've listed are not timid, and you'll only be making things worse. It's entirely likely that getting shocked will only make the dog think it's been attacked by the other dog, and probably provoke an even worse fight. Seriously, it's a waste of money.

I've raised a lot of dogs, almost all of them females. Get your dogs spayed. Simply removing the hormones from the equation does a lot to calm down any dog. Also, putting multiple dogs of the same gender together will result in a lot of sparring, especially at the doggie equivalent of the adolescent years. (Contrary to popular belief, one human year does not equal seven dog years. The first year for a dog is like the first 21 for a human, and each year after is about the same as four human years.)

I will say this, adding one, and ONLY ONE male into the mix will help with calming influence in a lot of cases. It's odd, I can't really explain it, but it works. DO NOT raise multiple males unless they're all neutered, 'cause males almost always fight a lot harder than females.

Your puppies need more exercise. I don't know how much they get, but they need more.

Puppies can severely hurt each other, and while a certain amount of jockeying for position in the pack is normal and even healthy, you do need to keep an eye on it. Puppies have sharp little teeth, and six months is plenty long enough to get enough strength in the jaws and neck muscles to necessitate keeping a vet on speed dial.

Also, one other thing, which I'm going to guess that you know, but bears repeating anyway: you MUST assert your position as pack leader. Failing to do so will cause problems, which are much better prevented than fixed after they become problems. Also instill in the dogs the sense that ALL humans are higher in the pack than they are.

Specific advice about Maggie. She might just be a mean dog. I don't really care what some experts would say, some dogs are just born mean. And if you truly can't make her play nice, put her down. If you don't, you run the risk that she's going to turn on a human at some point, and finding a different home for her will only shift the problem to someone else. I realize it's extreme, which is why it's a last resort, but you can't save 'em all. I've seen dogs die, and I know it's neither pretty nor pleasant, but it happens. Our dog Yuki was a beautiful creature, but she was also vicious. She's gone now, because like it or not, that's what had to be done.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me, I'll do my best to answer what I can. I also suggest getting books on dog behavior and specific books relating to the breeds that are represented in your household. Because, for all the similarities I could list between, say, huskies and samoyeds, I could list even more differences.

[Ego Slayer]

Your puppies need more exercise. I don't know how much they get, but they need more.
...:smallconfused:
Er. No, I don't think so.
They practically live outside. If they're not inside sleeping, they're outside snuffing around... they don't live in a suburb with a 10'x10' backyard.

Also, unless law required it, I will never put down an animal. Not something I could ever do unless I was legally forced to.

And, for gods' sake, they're still very young, and what with there being three of them, they've not gotten all the proper training they should have had by now. Especially since we've been debating for so long finding them homes, and at this point I'm slightly ticked the rest of my family hasn't come to their senses yet (well, just my mum and younger brother) that we shouldn't be keeping them because there are far to many issues.

Anywho, appreciate the advice so far. :)

[Winter_Wolf]

...:smallconfused:
Er. No, I don't think so.
They practically live outside. If they're not inside sleeping, they're outside snuffing around... they don't live in a suburb with a 10'x10' backyard.

Also, unless law required it, I will never put down an animal. Not something I could ever do unless I was legally forced to.

And, for gods' sake, they're still very young, and what with there being three of them, they've not gotten all the proper training they should have had by now. Especially since we've been debating for so long finding them homes, and at this point I'm slightly ticked the rest of my family hasn't come to their senses yet (well, just my mum and younger brother) that we shouldn't be keeping them because there are far to many issues.

Anywho, appreciate the advice so far. :)

Appreciated, but "living outside" is NOT the same as getting exercise. Or maybe I should have said, structured exercise. It DOES make a difference.

Your choice about putting a dog down or not is entirely up to you, of course. I'm just saying, it's something that might at some point have to be done. Generally speaking, if a dog attacks a person and the authorities have to get involved, the sentence is death. If nothing else just consider it advance notice, so you can make your peace with the possibility. It's harder than it sounds, I know, believe me I know.

But basically, you just nailed it with your last statement. "...Family hasn't come to their senses yet...." Dogs are great and wonderful, but not every family is in a position that works for raising dogs. That is my professional opinion, and I've had to do a lot of screening for potential homes for puppies in the past.

Good luck to you wherever your dog adventure takes you.

And ya, pictures. Definitely pictures.

[Rare Pink Leech]

My mum just walked into the room and when I reiterated what you said about it being rough play, she pretty much said "ohhh... no effin' way." :P I wasn't there for the whole thing, but even I heard the crying from one of them, at one point. I still see a massive gap between their usual rough play and this. They weren't yelping, snarling and crying like anything before.

I'd also like to mention that the mother (which I imagine was because of the chow) was a killer rabid thing... She was pretty much ready to kill a friend's dog (who we were dog-sitting), first time she saw her and my mum literally had to beat her away.

And even if this was "play" the point is still that it's not to be tolerated. Not at that level and something needs to be done if we're to keep both of them.

Edit: Where they yelping. Holy $&*@, I've never heard them yelp and cry so loud. It's not the singular yelp when they play and someone gets bit badly and they break up on their own... they screamed and snarled and would not give up.

She's had multiple adult dogs before, but they never fought, or never so hard that it was worth mentioning.

It sounds like this might be more of a problem than I initially thought. All the advice other Playgrounds have given you has been good so far, but I'm going to suggest searching for professional help from a trainer. If you're considering getting rid of two because you're afraid the dogs are too aggressive towards one another, then I think this might be something of concern, especially given the mother's history.

Essentially, and I've said this before, get them trained. Also, be sure to socialize them -- bring them into situations where they are around lots of people and other dogs. I suggest this for any dog, really. It's a shame when a dog is raised with regular contact with only a few people -- this can lead to aggression and antisocial behavior with both humans and other dogs. I think if you do these things you'll find they'll mature into lovable and respectable dogs.

Oh, and another piece of advice that one of my cousins does: when you feed the puppies, put your face right in theirs and over the bowl. Dogs can become really possessive over their food bowls, and can snap at anyone (humans included) who they perceive to be trying to steal their food. By getting your face in there they learn to be more passive when it comes to food.

[Ego Slayer]

Your choice about putting a dog down or not is entirely up to you, of course. I'm just saying, it's something that might at some point have to be done. Generally speaking, if a dog attacks a person and the authorities have to get involved, the sentence is death. If nothing else just consider it advance notice, so you can make your peace with the possibility. It's harder than it sounds, I know, believe me I know.
I'm irked and slightly angered that it's even up for discussion here. I have a dog, I love her, she's a good girl (they all are), and I'm appalled that the vague possibility of putting her down is so much as thought. Some dogs are doomed to that (and this is about them attacking each other, not people... they love people), but it will not, under my and my mum's best watch, happen. :smallmad: If you don't try to train them well (and her mother sure as crap wasn't trained so it's really not a good measure of things), yeah... they're they're gonna go to hell for it. I want no more said on this. Not a peep. Thanks.


But basically, you just nailed it with your last statement. "...Family hasn't come to their senses yet...." Dogs are great and wonderful, but not every family is in a position that works for raising dogs. That is my professional opinion, and I've had to do a lot of screening for potential homes for puppies in the past.
You don't understand; one is perfect, three is too many. In all honesty, I find our household much more appealing than a large percentage of all other homes. My mom works from home, I am doing, and will continue, college very close to home, and my younger brother is also always home currently. I'm slightly disgusted by people who either leave their dogs tied up or in the house all day while they're at work. It's depressing. :smallyuk:

[DraPrime]

I looked at the title and thought it might have something to do with aerial combat. I was so disappointed :smallfrown:

[Ego Slayer]

I looked at the title and thought it might have something to do with aerial combat. I was so disappointed :smallfrown:
Aw, sorry. You can have a Thread Participation trophy anyway. :smallwink:

[mangosta71]

There are trophies? Why did no one mention this before?

[Albub]

My dad hits his huskies with a length of chain to break them up if it ever gets nasty, but usually they don't infight, and his lead dog is so good at fighting he doesn't need to worry about her fighting other dogs. My suggestion to you is let them fight. They'll do it to establish the leader, and then leave it alone for a while.

[Ego Slayer]

Because Winter Wolf wanted some pics, they are here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4898463&posted=1#post4898463)

[Winter_Wolf]

They are beautiful puppies to be sure. And ya, I misunderstood that you wanted to keep one of them. That's what happens when you operate on too little sleep I guess. I reread the posts today with a clear mind, and wow I missed a lot of info.

Have they sorted themselves out yet? 'Cause looking at the picture of the three of them together, it seems to me that Polly is quite happy to stay as omega. Molly seems like she's not willing to settle for beta. If they haven't sorted out yet, seems like you could keep Polly and Maggie together without problems, Molly might be happier being an only puppy.

If I've muffed the names, it's only 'cause I can't keep Molly and Polly straight in my mind. At least Maggie isn't Holly, or my head would explode.

[Syka]

I know whenever my boyfriends family has a problem with their dogs they grab their collars to drag them away, swat them on the nose saying "No!" and make them get in a submissive stance (on their belly) while standing over them.

Their old husky/beagle mix does NOT like other dogs, she had real issues with our friends pug. But both dogs (the other is a three year old bloodhound/something mix) know that when their collars get grabbed and one of them stand over them that they are in trouble and better stop it (they usually get the submissive stance on their own).

I don't know the details of their training, but that's the gist of how they punish the dogs, along with not giving them attention after they've done something bad. For all that the young one is stupid sometimes, both are smart and straighten up quickly.

BUT you have to be firm, and quick about it. If they do something and you find out later, you can't punish them then. In this case, I'd just drag them apart, get them on their bellies, and say no. Then separate them and don't give them attention until X time.

You also have to make sure they know YOU are the alpha. Maggie is not the alpha. Your parents have to be, otherwise they won't listen.

Cheers,
Syka