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Kayoden Usoden
2008-09-10, 09:57 AM
I have a small problem... what would the damage and the crit be for a 3.5 ed. medium sized chainsaw?

Tengu_temp
2008-09-10, 09:59 AM
D20 Modern lists chainsaw as an exotic two-handed weapon, 3d6/20.

Spiryt
2008-09-10, 10:03 AM
Damage would be probably quite good, as well as critic, with some massive minuses to hit though.

And probably with some Strenght/PowerAtack restrictions, as it couldn't be really used to properly "strike" opponent.

TheOOB
2008-09-10, 12:25 PM
Honestly, you could do more damage more reliably to someone with a longsword then a chainsaw. Chainsaws are not good for combat, they are awkward as heck to use in combat, making it more likely to leave a non-fatal wound(albiet painful) then a fatal one, and they have this annoying tenancy to get caught on a bone and deflect off in a random direction which is incredibly dangerous to the wielder.

I would most likely stat them as a decent damage weapon (1d6 maybe) but give them a really good crit (19-20 x4 maybe) and of course exotic.

Thane of Fife
2008-09-10, 12:32 PM
Chainsaws are not good for combat, they are awkward as heck to use in combat, making it more likely to leave a non-fatal wound(albiet painful) then a fatal one, and they have this annoying tenancy to get caught on a bone and deflect off in a random direction which is incredibly dangerous to the wielder.


Purely out of curiosity, how do you know this?

Spiryt
2008-09-10, 12:33 PM
Honestly, you could do more damage more reliably to someone with a longsword then a chainsaw. Chainsaws are not good for combat, they are awkward as heck to use in combat, making it more likely to leave a non-fatal wound(albiet painful) then a fatal one, and they have this annoying tenancy to get caught on a bone and deflect off in a random direction which is incredibly dangerous to the wielder.


Can I ask where this experience comes from?

*backs away slowly * :smalleek:

And anyway, dunno about the bone, but certainly hiting any metal armor with it could end gory (chain snap - probably right into wielder face ).

But theory about bone sounds plausible too. Chainsaw is for slow actions like sawing things, not for quick like strikes.

Jack Zander
2008-09-10, 12:33 PM
Yeah, chainsaws are aweful for combat. I would definitely give them a x4 crit multiplier, since if you are able to get a good strike in (or if you coup de grace) it should be almost instantly fatal. However, in normal combat they are going to be unwieldy (-2 attack) and deal little damage (1d6 or 1d8). I like the restriction on power attack too. You aren't striking your opponent so much as simply trying to touch them with it. Maybe making it finesse-able would help represent that.

Ascension
2008-09-10, 12:39 PM
I'd count it as an improvised weapon rather than exotic.

Unless it's a specifically designed chainsword, in which case it would be exotic and have much better stats... but if you're just looking to kill people with chainswords you're probably playing Dark Heresy instead of D&D...

EDIT: Oh, and this needs to be posted. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8_dY4rpjOc)

kjones
2008-09-10, 12:59 PM
EDIT: Oh, and this needs to be posted. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8_dY4rpjOc)

That was fantastic.

Spycraft D20 gave them a very high error range (1-3 on a d20) - you should have some way to reflect the fact that they are very, very dangerous to the wielder if used improperly (such as, say, in combat).

Spiryt
2008-09-10, 01:36 PM
Maybe making it finesse-able would help represent that.

On the other hand, finesseability in 3.5 seems to be mainly concerned about lightness and convenience, even when it doesn't make sense.

TheOOB
2008-09-10, 02:14 PM
Can I ask where this experience comes from?

*backs away slowly * :smalleek:

Heh heh, no personal experience in chainsaw combat, but I do know a little about swordfighting(enough to know how important weapon balance is) and I do know what happens when you use a chainsaw against something that isn't evenly dense all the way through(it deflects), also read some police reports and/or stories of chainsaw homocides, they are messy dangerous affairs.

Stormageddon
2008-09-10, 03:06 PM
Honestly, you could do more damage more reliably to someone with a longsword then a chainsaw. Chainsaws are not good for combat, they are awkward as heck to use in combat, making it more likely to leave a non-fatal wound(albiet painful) then a fatal one, and they have this annoying tenancy to get caught on a bone and deflect off in a random direction which is incredibly dangerous to the wielder.

I would most likely stat them as a decent damage weapon (1d6 maybe) but give them a really good crit (19-20 x4 maybe) and of course exotic.

Haven't ever seen army of darkness.

Gorbash
2008-09-10, 03:27 PM
EDIT: Oh, and this needs to be posted. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8_dY4rpjOc)

Well, judging by this video, it seems that chainsaws are unable to deliver any damage except to clothing, so I'd say 0 damage (except when used as coup de grace) and +4 on sunder attempts.

Ascension
2008-09-10, 03:31 PM
Well, judging by this video, it seems that chainsaws are unable to deliver any damage except to clothing, so I'd say 0 damage (except when used as coup de grace) and +4 on sunder attempts.

:smallbiggrin:

Right. You can even draw a lot of blood with a chainsaw, but if you want to kill anyone, you have to shoot them.

Burrito
2008-09-10, 07:31 PM
Well, have and use a chainsaw, so I will give some advice.

It is totaly unusable as a regular mele weapon. It could only be for an improvised, spur of the moment thing. The reach isn't that good, but the damage would be very good when you hit. There would be a lot of blood, because the wounds would be very ragged and torn. And once it hits something soft like that, the chain will "Catch" on it more, and actually want to dig in deeper. I would give it big negatives to hit, but a very high crit range, and have the chainsawee make a grapple save or be automaticaly hit again for damage. It would be real easy to take off limbs and fingers with a chainsaw. I would also have it where any roll of 1 results in the wielder taking a full roll of damage to themselves, and a roll of 2 taking half damage.

A chainsaw would make a great weapon if it were to be designed as one, but it is weighted, balanced, and desinged to cut wood.

Ascension
2008-09-10, 07:43 PM
A chainsaw would make a great weapon if it were to be designed as one, but it is weighted, balanced, and desinged to cut wood.

I'm not sure if I would agree with that. The weight of the engine is always going to throw off balance and I would think that the limited fuel supply and need to start the engine before wielding it as a weapon would also weigh against it. Maybe if you had an electric motor and a large backpack-mounted battery it might be a bit more practical...

Edea
2008-09-10, 07:51 PM
Sorry to bring up a Final Fantasy game, but...y'know Ba'gamnan's staff? I would envision a battle chainsaw looking somewhat like that, or perhaps a more elliptical blade to emulate a chainsaw spear/sword.

monty
2008-09-10, 08:00 PM
Chainsaw nunchucks (http://drmcninja.com/page.php?pageNum=37&issue=5). Enough said.

Edea
2008-09-10, 08:01 PM
Now TWICE as likely to chop off his own head :D

Person_Man
2008-09-10, 10:13 PM
How about this:

Chainsaw: 3d6 (20, *4): Exotic Weapon. If you roll a natural 20 and confirm the critical hit, your enemy must make a Fort Save (DC equal to the damage dealt) or be Dazed for 1 round (Save negates). If you roll a natural 1, then you take damage as if you had hit yourself, and must make a Fort Save (DC equal to the damage dealt) or be Dazed for 1 round (Save Negates).

SCPRedMage
2008-09-10, 10:49 PM
Meh, I wouldn't bother with using chainsaws in combat unless they were rocket propelled.

http://ksguild.org/gallery/651_10_09_08_7_52_09.jpg

monty
2008-09-10, 10:51 PM
http://ksguild.org/gallery/651_10_09_08_7_52_09.jpg

I was going to post a witty comment, but I can't ruin that with words.
Crap, I just did.

SCPRedMage
2008-09-10, 10:57 PM
I was going to post a witty comment, but I can't ruin that with words.
Crap, I just did.
I can only wish that I had come up with that...

Superglucose
2008-09-10, 11:42 PM
I would most likely stat them as a decent damage weapon (1d6 maybe) but give them a really good crit (19-20 x4 maybe) and of course exotic.

High crit is fine, but I don't like the 19-20 multiplier. That represents ease of use.

Chainsaws SUCK as weapons. A) you don't just swing a chainsaw into a tree, you push... and wait. B) They get gummed up fast. Hell, many chainsaws jam up during normal usage... on trees. That don't throw gore that jams up the gears. also C) they aren't particuarly sharp.

Personally, those rules in D20 modern are bull**** for chain saws. It should be more like 1d4 slashing damage, crit x4 or x5. You can't do **** waving a chainsaw unless you manage to catch an artery or vein, in which case your opponent is going DOWN. FAST.

Ascension
2008-09-10, 11:46 PM
The only way to really be sure is to get a bunch of folks with varying degrees of fighting skill and send them all out to try to kill a bunch of other folks with varying degrees of fighting skill with chainsaws. We compile the results and work out statistics.

...and that, my friends, is the problem with simulationist gaming. At least when it involves killing people.

Seffbasilisk
2008-09-11, 12:10 AM
I'd volunteer to use a longsword if someone wants to use a chainsaw.

Jack Zander
2008-09-11, 12:17 AM
The only way to really be sure is to get a bunch of folks with varying degrees of fighting skill and send them all out to try to kill a bunch of other folks with varying degrees of fighting skill with chainsaws. We compile the results and work out statistics.

...and that, my friends, is the problem with simulationist gaming. At least when it involves killing people.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see where the problem is.

Edea
2008-09-11, 12:45 AM
Also: a mundane steel blade on the saw? Going to get worn down, gummed up, etc.

But what about an adamantine chainsaw, or perhaps a brilliant energy/laser chainsaw? Not going to gum up at all, or wear down, ever. Change the grip and the weight so you can swing it properly, and speed up the blades so they snap through tendons like they were made of butter.

A straight-up chainsaw obviously has problems, but inject some fantasy/magic into it, and it could be a fearsome combat weapon. Actually, try the Grinding enchantment from Magic Item Compendium (or whatever it's called).

Alas, bull**** or not, the D20 Modern rules Tengu referenced are probably amongst the closest to a RAW interpretation of chainsaws you're going to find in d20 IMO (I also find 3d6 a bit...overestimated, especially if it's a normal, mundane saw).

Khanderas
2008-09-11, 02:51 AM
A chainsaw is a tool that is downright unsuitable for weaponry for several reasons.
First off it is extremly unwieldy. Hitting a moving target is both hard and slow, due to the weight of such a machine and the downright akwardness of that weight.
Second its damage don't quite come as a slash, such use of it would make a gash but it would not be deep and it would throw the victim, wielder, chainsaw or any combination of above, out of balance as the chain catches itself and try to pull or push or "jump" upwards (depending on what side of the rotation you hit). The chainsaws strength lies in that it "digs" itself in with little applied pressure on a still target.
Third the chain on a normal chainsaw dulls easily. One nail on a normal chainsaw can dull the whole chain, requiring filing it sharp again. Obviously metal armor, studs, blocked by a metal weapon and yes hitting the ground (rocks) all but ensures that in a melee the chainsaw will be dulled real fast.
Fouth it requires fuel. Normally oil (or other lubricant) mixed gasoline.
Fifth the chain will get clogged up FAST. On wood it saws off somewhat dry chips that then are tossed away by the chain. On flesh... Not So Much. I have helped my folks slaughter a pig or cow now and then, and I can guarantee you it is not the same.
Sixth it does not dig though armour the way you would think it would, much for the same reason that flesh gets stuck in the chain. Common protection when using a chainsaw is unusually thick pants where the idea is the fibers jam the saw if it mistakenly comes up on your legs. Yes that is right: Cloth (kinda, they are special chainsaw pants, normal jeans won't do) pants can stop a chainsaw as can a pair of rubber boots. Sure I am talking about accidental exposure to it but still.

So slow, hard to hit, inefficient and easily stopped/jammed... Frankly as an improvised weapon any club would do better. Bonus points for shockvalue though. Would work ok if the target is prone or helpless



If we were to go mad scientist here and develop a chainsaw weapon well that is another thing.
First of a complete redesign of the chain. Instead of the hook-slashing variety normal chainsaws have a more steamlined semi-circle blades instead. This would reduce the jerkiness when you actually hit with it since it would "slash" more then it would tear.
Since it slashes we could reduce the power of the engine by alot, making it easier to wield and especially much less clumsy.

allonym
2008-09-11, 01:29 PM
Call of Cthulhu chainsaw:
Base chance 20%
Damage 2d8 (for reference, the heavier sword entry is 1d6+1+damage bonus)
Malfunction on a 97+

Impale result (a crit, basically) severs a random limb.

Spiryt
2008-09-11, 01:37 PM
Call of Cthulhu chainsaw:
Base chance 20%
Damage 2d8 (for reference, the heavier sword entry is 1d6+1+damage bonus)
Malfunction on a 97+

Impale result (a crit, basically) severs a random limb.

Can you, hmm, develop, this ? Is "base chance (of what?)" better than some normal two handed sword?

What is "damage bonus"? If it isn't something particulary high, then looks that chainsaw is very good stuff.
And what is for example "impale result" of said sword?


How about this:

Chainsaw: 3d6 (20, *4): Exotic Weapon. If you roll a natural 20 and confirm the critical hit, your enemy must make a Fort Save (DC equal to the damage dealt) or be Dazed for 1 round (Save negates). If you roll a natural 1, then you take damage as if you had hit yourself, and must make a Fort Save (DC equal to the damage dealt) or be Dazed for 1 round (Save Negates).

If it's treated as normal two handed, then it's kinda OK, if that's what OP want.

However from more realistical point of view it should be improvised weapon, with 2d6 IMO.

SpikeFightwicky
2008-09-11, 02:30 PM
Can you, hmm, develop, this ? Is "base chance (of what?)" better than some normal two handed sword?

What is "damage bonus"? If it isn't something particulary high, then looks that chainsaw is very good stuff.
And what is for example "impale result" of said sword?

Base chance is the percentile chance that someone can use the weapon. If the PC hasn't allocated any skill points to Chainsaw use, then they'll need to roll 20 or under (not too likely :smallbiggrin:). By comparison, a Punch has a base chance of 50%, a Rifle 25%, a sword is 10% and a knife is 25%.

Damage bonus is the extra damage dealt by virtue of having a high strength and size. Average strength is 10-11, average size is 13. So the average damage bonus is (average SIZ + STR = 23-24) + 0. A STR + SIZ value of 25 gives +1d4 damage bonus, though.



If it's treated as normal two handed, then it's kinda OK, if that's what OP want.

However from more realistical point of view it should be improvised weapon, with 2d6 IMO.

As Tengu pointed out, in d20 Modern, it's a large (2 handed) exotic weapon, 3d6 damage, crit on a 20. It doesn't deal any additional effects under its description, but the description describes it as a mostly improvised weapon (despite being exotic). An easy fix would be just to treat as improvised instead of exotic, maybe up the crit multiplier as others have said.

Spiryt
2008-09-11, 02:47 PM
So Cthulhu chainsaw is better weapon than sword in terms of ease of use, average damage, and special effects? Outrrrageous! :smallfurious:

Anyway, I would make chainsaw improvised weapon with 2d6 damage and 20/x4 crit. While it's two handed weapon, it can't be used as one for purposes of Power attack and 1 1/2 bonus from strenght.

And probably some sunder bonus against object, that's what it's made for after all.

Simple, makes it quite deadly weapon, yet still obviously suboptimal.

Leon
2008-09-11, 04:45 PM
Enchant it for Bane Vs Plants

AslanCross
2008-09-12, 12:45 AM
EDIT: Oh, and this needs to be posted. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8_dY4rpjOc)

Words fail me. The only one that registers at this point is AWESOME.

Superglucose
2008-09-12, 12:52 AM
Another couple of points: first off, a chainsaw vibrates like MAD when you're using it. That would be the motor.

Second, you're much better off attacking someone with a circular saw than a chain saw. Circular saws are actually designed to slice, and take off human appendages rather easily (people lose fingers to circular saws... as in cut clean off). So if you wanted a chainsaw weapon, I'd just make a big circular saw.