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Kizara
2008-09-10, 04:59 PM
So, my current character is a Baron, lord of a small county and a very ambitious man.

The situation and the area:

Back home (East), a civil war is raging and has already claimed his father and elder brother. Back there, heavy lancers are the weapon of choice (regardless of the more likely realities of urban fighting).

In my lands, I have alot of rivers and farmland. I have a very large forest to my West that is infested with goblins and recently hobgoblins (made a bloody castle...). I have mountains with ogres and hill giants to the north, and a swamp with trolls and Will-o-Wisps. Far in the Westerly woods lie elves, who occassionally come through my lands to trade with us. It is from them that we gained the making of longbows.

To my immediate west I have a large area of open plainsland with a few large hill-lines (ridgelines). Thus, my people favor archery and light horsemen (think Rohirrin).

I currently control a small town around my main keep, a large town, and a number of villages and hamlets.

Note that this is a low-magic campaign, magic items are uncommon and at double cost. Casters are quite rare, although my character is:
scout 1/ranger 3//fighter 4

My youngest sister has recently discovered to be a sorceress, so after a few years of headaches (young girl + uncontrolled strange powers=see any anime for referance :smallsmile:) that will be a considerable asset.



Also, see this thread for some of his current plans for construction projects:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90008

Current Forces:

Note: All units are 20 'men'.

{table]Unit|Mount|Weapon 1|Weapon 2|Armor|Lvl
Ranger Guard|L W H|Comp. Longbow|Longsword|Chain Shirt, L. Wood Shield, Stud. Leath Bard|2
Skirmishers|None|Shortbow|Longsword|Stud. Leath, L. Wood Shield|1
Light Calvary|L W H|Shortbow|Longsword, Lance|Stud Leath, Stud Leather Bard, H Wood Shield|1.5
Light Calvary|L W H|Shortbow|Longsword, Lance|Stud Leath, Stud Leather Bard, H Wood Shield|1
Medium Infant|None|Longsword|Dagger|Scale Mail, H Wood Shield|1
Medium Pikes|None|Longspear|Dagger|Scale Mail|1
Longbow Men|None|Longbow|Dagger|Leather|1
Longbow Men|None|Longbow|Dagger|Leather|1[/table]

Future Ideas:

Heavy Pikes (in training) (ftr)
Longspear (100), Great sword (1,000), Dagger (40), Banded Mail (5,000), Light Xbow (700).
Feats: Wpn Focus (longspear), Power Attack, Cleave. Armor Focus (heavy) (lvl 2), Charge-Breaker (lvl 3), Wpn Spec (Longspear) (lvl 4), Formation Expert (lvl 6), Hold the Line (lvl 6).
Total Cost of Unit: 6,840

Heavy Calvary (ftr)
H Warhorse (8,000), MW Lance (6,200), Banded Mail (5,000), Banded Mail Barding (20,000), H. Steel Shield (400), Longsword (300), Light Xbow (700)
Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Wpn Focus (lance). Spirited Charge (lvl 2), Trample (lvl 3), Wpn Spec Lance (lvl 4).
Total Cost of Unit: 40,600

Heavy Infantry (ftr)
Longsword (300), Dagger (40), Tower Shield (600), Banded Mail (5,000).
Feats: Shield Wall, Wpn Focus (longsword), Shield Focus (tower). Armor Focus (heavy) (lvl 2), Shield Specialization (lvl 3), Wpn Spec (longsword) (lvl 4).
Total Cost of Unit: 5,940

Longbow Men (war)
Longbow (1,500), dagger (40), leather armor (200).
Feats: Wpn Focus (longbow), Far Shot.
Total Cost of Unit: 1,740

Anti-Calvary Crossbowmen (war)
Heavy Xbow (1,000), Longspear (100), Dagger (40), Studded Leather (500).
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Ready Shot. Weapon Focus (heavy xbow) (lvl 3).
Total Cost of Unit: 1,640

Attack Infant (barb)
Great sword (1,000), battleaxe (200), Studded Leather (500).
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave. Wpn Focus (great sword) (lvl 3).
Total Cost of Unit: 1,700

Spies (rog)
Shortsword (200), Light Xbow (700), Dagger, Studded Leather (500), MW thieves tools (2000), thieves equipment (300).
Feats: Stealthy, Pt-Blank Shot. Precise Shot (lvl 2).
Total Cost of Unit: 3,700

Super Heavy Calvary (ftr 2)
H Warhorse (8,000), MW Lance (6,200), Full Plate (30,000), Full Plate Barding (120,000), H. Steel Shield (400), MW Longsword (6,300), Heavy Xbow (1,000)
Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Wpn Focus (lance), Spirited Charge. Trample (lvl 3), Wpn Spec Lance (lvl 4).
Total Cost of Unit: 171,900

Super Heavy Infantry (ftr)
Longsword (300), Dagger (40), Tower Shield (600), Full Plate (30,000).
Feats: Shield Wall, Wpn Focus (longsword), Shield Focus (tower). Armor Focus (heavy) (lvl 2), Shield Specialization (lvl 3), Wpn Spec (longsword) (lvl 4).
Total Cost of Unit: 30,940

Large Attack Infant (barb)
L Great sword (1,500), L battleaxe (300), L Studded Leather (1,000).
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave. Wpn Focus (great sword) (lvl 3).
Total Cost of Unit: 2,800

Medium Pikes (war)
Longspear (100), Halberd (200), Scale Mail (1,000).
Feats: Weapon Focus (longspear), Combat Reflexes. Hold the line (lvl 3).
Total Cost of Unit: 1,300

Hunters (rgr)
L Warhorse (3,000), Comp. Longbow (2,000), Longsword (300), Dagger (40), H Wood Shield (200), Studded Leather (500).
Feats: Pt Blank Shot, Wpn Focus (longbow). Rapid Shot (lvl 2 CS), Precise Shot (lvl 3).
Total Cost: 5,540


Note that recruitment costs are not included because I can currently recruit troops for 'free' (upkeep starts when they start training, but my trainer is an old soldier of my house and doesn't charge me). I can train a troop of warriors in 6 months, elites (PC classes) take a year.

Also, this is everything I could think of that I could possibly make in the future, I don't have the reasources and intent to make all/half of this.

On that note, my current treasury is about 15,000. I have a quarterly income of about 5,500 right now. Although I intend to increase this substainially, I also have quite a bit earmarked for things like weapon upgrades for my personal gaurd (mighty 3 comp longbows) and domestic construction (to increase said income).


SO, what I ask of you is, what cool ideas for DnD-style forces do YOU have? Keep suggestions somewhat reasonable, as "hire a troop of dragons" is not only not possible, I don't have the resources to do it even if it was.

Also, you can critique my ideas/designs above if you like.


OH, and do note that most 3.5 material is allowed, but as I mentioned earlier low-magic (can't hire a bunch of clerics... well might be able to, but it would be horribly expensive). Also, we aren't using psionics, ToB, ToM, Cscoundrel or Cchampion or most Dragon material in this campaign.

Finally, a relivant excerpt from my Tome of House Rules (reading isn't essential, but it explains a few of the feats my men have. Also, has some really great content).

Feats (Core):

-Natural Spell is banned.
-You may take a ‘skill feat’ that gives +2 to two skill checks and apply it to an appropriately-themed skill set instead of two separate skills. Alternately, you may select another type of skill check along the same theme. You gain the benefit for that skill as well.
-Combat Casting grants a +5 bonus.
-Combat Expertise allows the subtraction of any value from attacks rolls, limited only by BAB.
-Combat Reflexes allows you to make Attacks-of-Opportunity while flat-footed (but you must be aware of your opponent). This does not make you not flat-footed; it is not Uncanny Dodge.
-Dodge works on any opponent, as long as you are aware of them prior to the attack. For supporting Feats or abilities that work off of Dodge, you must still declare an opponent for those abilities.
-*Endurance Grants +2 HP and allows you to move your normal speed despite encumbrance, in addition to normal benefits. It now has “Con 13+” as a prerequisite.
-Far Shot no-longer has any prerequisites.
-Great Fortitude also adds +2 to Constitution checks (but not to Constitution-based skill checks or HD rolls).
-Iron Will also adds +2 to Wisdom checks (but not Wisdom-based skill checks).
-Lightning Reflexes also adds +2 to Dexterity checks (but not Dexterity-based skill checks or Initiative checks).
-Improved Shield Bash also grants a +4 bonus to attack rolls with your shield when performing shield bash attacks.
-Manyshot does not have Rapid Shot as a prerequisite.
-Mobility also grants +8 to Tumble checks when tumbling to move past opponents.
-Quick Draw also allows you to sheath a weapon as a swift action.
-Quicken Spell has the prerequisite “Ability to cast 4th-level spells”.
-Improved Critical now stacks with Keen Edge, but not with any other effect or ability that may increase critical threat range (unless that ability explicitly states that it stacks).
-Ride-by-Attack prerequisites increased to Ride 3 ranks, in addition to as-written.
-Skill Focus also makes the chosen skill a class skill for you, for all classes. Furthermore, it has “4 ranks in the selected skill” as a prerequisite, grants a +4 bonus to that skill and allows you to take 10 when performing it even while rushed or threatened.
-Spirited Charge prerequisites increased to BAB 2+, Ride 5 ranks, in addition to as-written.
-Whirlwind Attack prerequisites changed to: Dex 13+, Combat Expertise, Cleave, BAB 6+; instead of as written.
-Weapon Finesse prerequisites changed to Precision Strike, Dex 15+, BAB 3+ and grants the ability to add your Dexterity Modifier instead of your Strength modifier to melee damage. (see Combat section, beginning of tome, for more details)
-Weapon Focus grants +2 to hit with the selected weapon.
-Weapon Specialization grants +3 damage with the selected weapon.
-Greater Weapon Focus grants a further +2 to hit with the selected weapon, +4 to defensive Sunder or Disarm rolls involving the weapon and the ability to take 10 on attack rolls involving the weapon.
-Greater Weapon Specialization grants a further +3 damage with the selected weapon and doubles the weapon damage dice (1d8 becomes 2d8, 2d6 becomes 4d6, etc). Furthermore, you automatically succeed at critical confirmation rolls with the selected weapon.

New Feats:

Pierce the Wind [General]

Prerequisites: BAB 8+, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot, Strength 19+

Benefit: When firing in windy conditions, you may treat the wind as if it was two levels milder. This allows you to fire through a Wind Wall or similar effect.


Shield Focus [General]

Prerequisites: BAB 1+, proficiency with selected shields.

Benefit: Choose a type of shield, such as large or small. Your AC bonus from that type of shield is increased by 1. Also, you gain +1 to attack rolls with that type of shield.


Shield Specialization [General]

Prerequisites: BAB 3+, proficiency with shields.

Benefit: The armor bonus granted to you by all non-buckler shields is increased by 2. Furthermore, you get an additional +1 to attack and damage rolls using shields.

Note: These benefits stack with those from the Shield Focus feat.


Shield Mastery [General]

Prerequisites: Fighter level 8+, Shield Focus, Shield Specialization

Benefit: Choose a type of shield, that you have taken Shield Focus for. You gain the following benefits:
-You gain your shield’s AC bonus to your Reflex saves against effects that allow Reflex saves for half damage.
-You gain DR 2/- if you specialized in small shields, DR 4/- if you specialized in large shields, or DR 6/- if you specialized in tower shields. You have this DR against any attack that your shield’s AC bonus applies.
-Your shield is considered 1 size larger; such as for the purposes of disarm attempts or how much damage it deals in a shield bash attack.


Armor Mastery [General]

Prerequisites: BAB 10+, Armor Focus, Armor Specialization, proficient with all types of armor.

Benefit: The AC granted by any armor you wear is increased by 2 and the Armor Check Penalty is reduced by 4. Furthermore, you gain Damage Reduction based on how heavy your armor is. Light armor grants DR 2/-, Medium armor grants DR 5/-, Heavy Armor grants DR 10/-. The DR granted by this feat does not stack with that granted by Armor Specialization. The AC bonus granted by this feat does stacks with Armor Focus.


Armor Focus [General]

Prerequisites: BAB 1+, proficient selected armor.

Benefit: Choose a particular style of armor, such as light, heavy or exotic. The AC granted by this type of armor to you increases by 2 and its armor check penalty is reduced by 1.


Defensive Feint [General]

Benefit: When a character successfully feints an opponent, he or she may elect to forego the opponent becoming flat-footed against the next attack in favour of gaining either a +4 dodge bonus to AC or partial (20%) concealment against that opponent for the duration of the following round.


Sweeping Whirlwind Attack [General]

Prerequisites: Dex 13+, Int 13+, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, BAB 11+

Benefit: When you use Whirlwind Attack, you strike every opponent you threaten that has less then one half cover to you.


Improved Whirlwind Attack [General]

Prerequisites: Dex 13+, Int 13+, Combat Expertise, Cleave, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, BAB 9+.

Benefit: You may use the Whirlwind Attack feat as a standard action.


Master Whirlwind Attack:

Prerequisites: Dex 13+, Int 13+, Combat Expertise, Cleave, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Great Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, Improved Whirlwind Attack, BAB 11+

Benefit: The Whirlwind Attack feat may be used in conjunction with Great Cleave.


Maim [General]

Prerequisites: BAB 5+, Improved Sunder

Benefit: As a standard action, you may attempt to make a single melee crippling attack at a -2 penalty to-hit. If your attack deals 10 or more damage, all forms of your target’s movement speed are reduced to half.

You may use this ability multiple times on the same opponent, its effects stack. However, subsequent Maims only reduce the target’s movement speed by 5ft each. Speed my be reduced to 0ft but not below it in this fashion.

These reductions last until the subject heals an amount of damage equal to the attack, tracked separately for each.


Efficient Spellcasting

Prerequisite: Ability to cast spells or use spell-like abilities, caster level 5+.

Benefit: You may maintain concentration on a spell as a move-equivilent action. Also, you may dismiss spells as a swift action.


Improved Resistance

Prerequisites: Innate Resistance 4, Con 13+

Benefit: Your Innate Resistance value improves by 4.

Special: You may take this feat multiple times, its effects stack.


Persistent Resistance

Prerequisites: Innate Resistance 14, Con 15+

Benefit: Spellcasters must check twice to overcome your Innate Resistance, succeeding both times in order to effect you with a spell. If you have an ability that is bolstered passively by IR, it is also subject to this benefit.


Spell Ward

Prerequisite: Innate Resistance 11, Con 15+

Benefit: You gain +2 to all saves versus spells and spell-like effects.


Aggressive Stance

Prerequisites: BAB 1+, Str 13+

Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from your AC and add that number to all melee attack rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus


Precision Strike [General]

Prerequisites: BAB 1+, Weapon Finesse

Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add that number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. You must use a weapon that benefits from Weapon Finesse with this feat. The penalties to attack and bonuses to damage last until your next turn. Targets immune to precision damage (such as undead) are likewise immune to this effect.

Unlike Power Attack, the kind of weapon and how you wield it is irrelevant to the functioning of this feat; the only requirement being that you use a weapon you have taken Weapon Finesse for.

This feat cannot be used in conjunction with Power Attack or Called Shot.


Called Shot [General]

Prerequisites: BAB 1+, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.

Benefit: On your action, before making an attack roll, you may choose to subtract a number from your ranged attack rolls and add that number to your ranged damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. Targets immune to precision damage (such as undead) are likewise immune to this effect.

Your target must be within 30ft to benefit from this effect.

This feat cannot be used in conjunction with Power Attack or Precision Strike.


Pin Down [General]

Prerequisites: BAB 6+, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you may make a single ranged attack with a bow, light or heavy crossbow or medium-sized or larger thrown weapon against a ground based target within 60ft. If your attack hits, your opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + damage dealt) or be pinned immobile by your attack, unable to move from that spot. Your opponents may still attack and defend themselves normally and this feat does not work on opponents more then two size categories larger then yourself.

This effect may be removed be a DC 20 heal check requiring a full-round action or by magical healing equal to the original damage of the attack. Otherwise it ends in 3 rounds as the weapon works itself free.
Alternately, the affected individual may attempt a DC 15 Strength check as a move-equivalent action to pull the weapon free. However, doing so results in 1d8 damage to the individual and reduces their movement by half (DC 15 heal check to remove this penalty, or magically healing the damage caused by pulling the weapon loose).
If an opponent is afflicted by more then one Pin Down effect, increase all DCs by 5 for each additional active effect.


Charge Breaker [General]

Prerequisite: Weapon Focus (any weapon that does additional damage to a charging opponent, such as a longspear), Power Attack, BAB 3+.

Benefit: When you ready a weapon against a charge, you deal double damage (or triple damage with a spear). Furthermore, you gain +4 to hit a charging opponent.


Expert Charger (General)

Prerequisite: BAB 1+, Power Attack.

Benefit: Your bonus on attack rolls while charging is doubled to +4.


Mounted Charger

Prerequisite: BAB 1+, Mounted Combat, Ride 4 ranks.

Benefit: Your bonus on attack rolls while charging is doubled to +4.


Anti-Magic Specialist [General]

Prerequisites: Ability to cast Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic, Spell Focus (abjuration), Spellcraft 5 ranks, Know (arcane) 5 ranks.

Benefit: Add 4 to your caster level check when you cast Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic. Gain +2 to Spellcraft or knowledge (arcane) checks to identify an active spell or magical effect.

Yahzi
2008-09-10, 05:20 PM
You might find this thread entertaining:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2166937#post2166937

Kizara
2008-09-10, 06:00 PM
You might find this thread entertaining:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2166937#post2166937

Wow, what an awesome reasource. Thank you so much for the link.

bosssmiley
2008-09-11, 04:10 AM
Too complex; didn't read :smalltongue:

Suggest using Birthright's (http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/aDAndD2/birthright/v5748btpy7mh5) army system, or possibly the D&D Cyclopedia's (http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/w/wizardsOfTheCoast/byProductType/roleplayingGames/dungeonsDragons/classicDAndD/rulebooks/v5748btpy7mvs&source=search) War Machine, as an alternative.

I just have this aversion to reinventing the wheel is all...

Kizara
2008-09-11, 05:07 AM
Too complex; didn't read :smalltongue:

Suggest using Birthright's (http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/aDAndD2/birthright/v5748btpy7mh5) army system, or possibly the D&D Cyclopedia's (http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/w/wizardsOfTheCoast/byProductType/roleplayingGames/dungeonsDragons/classicDAndD/rulebooks/v5748btpy7mvs&source=search) War Machine, as an alternative.

I just have this aversion to reinventing the wheel is all...

What? This isn't some homebrew system, although there are homebrew ELEMENTS in it I suppose.

Its a character that has a standing army. The data lists things like what kind of forces he has and their equipment. Please tell me what part is so complex about reading:

A) A fairly brief and concise backstory/setting description.

B) A table listing unit types and basic equipment.

C) A list of other ideas for units that list basic unit type and equipment.

D) Basic rules/restrictions.

I mean, its not "LOL I WANS ARMYS PLS MAKE THX!", but its hardly complex. Honestly, your suggestions WOULD be 'reinventing the wheel', as I don't need to make new rule systems at all here. Its just a bloody listing of classes and equipment for frick sakes...

Hal
2008-09-11, 05:55 AM
I'd hire a bunch of barbarians to act as shock troopers.

I'd also see about throwing Knights/Marshalls in there to give boosts to your troops.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-11, 06:07 AM
You probably mean "cavalry". Calvary is Golgotha.

Obvious advice includes stuff like dwarf heavy infantry; less penalized by their armor, tougher, and able to wield dwarven waraxes. Or halfling slingers. Consider, also, the mobility of any unit in medium or heavy armor - over long distances, that one-third penalty to speed will really hurt, and lighter units can just skirt around them. This is why the heaviest armor goes on heavy cavalry.

Probably less obvious stuff includes the actual structure. Are we talking about a standing army of, at this point, 160 men? How many thousands of direct subjects do you have? The cost would be prohibitive, surely - close to 6,000 gold per year just to feed them, assuming each meal costs 1 sp (i.e. you're feeding them pottage and gruel), or two or three times that for better food. You'd presumably have to replace equipment regularly - once a year? - and constantly breed or buy and then train new warhorses, unless you just bought them at need (which is unreliable to say the least). Then there's accommodations, and paying all the professionals and craftsmen (weapon- and blacksmiths, farriers, grooms, cooks, bowyers and fletchers, etc.) necessary to keep them maintained - which probably amounts to a good hundred people or more. (Camp followers of moving armies tend to be more numerous than the soldiers.)

With a yearly income of 22,000 gp, I'd say your army is far, far over budget - assuming it's a standing one.

Now, if you employed a system of yeomen and militia - like you'd see in an actual feudal state - with the leaders of farming households bearing responsibility for military service and maintaining their armaments, you could get the costs way down. You'd only worry about supplies during an actual campaign, which - assuming this is a defensive army - would be brief indeed. (Well, obviously you'd also need to store enough supplies in whatever castle or fortress you have to tide your army and subjects over an extended siege - however long it would take for your feudal lord, family, or staunch allies to raise an army and march over to lift the siege.)

Of course, all this assumes your DM is actually this detail-oriented, but I assume he or she wishes to be, from the level of detail you've already got.

Incidentally, why horses for hunters? They have no feats that would allow them to fight effectively from horseback (Mounted Archery being the most critical for light cavalry). If they're dragoons, riding horses would be more than enough. And longspears [I]plus halberds for pikes? What's the point? They can't exactly switch mid-battle. You'd want longspears or halberds, and shortswords. (I believe the German katzbalger shortsword was carried by pikemen, specifically?)


All that said, my suggestion for an army is investing in a single warmage, or a sorcerer with fireball and similar spells. Web, grease, and glitterdust are all nice for warfare, too. Fly and greater invisibility would let such a spellcaster defeat all of the units you've envisioned. Instead of blowing money on equipping units, spend it on wands and potions. (The weakness here, obviously, is that it only takes a single similarly high-powered character to take this dude out. Then again, a 10th-level fighter could pretty reliably kill that army of 160...)

bosssmiley
2008-09-11, 08:25 AM
I mean, its not "LOL I WANS ARMYS PLS MAKE THX!", but its hardly complex. Honestly, your suggestions WOULD be 'reinventing the wheel', as I don't need to make new rule systems at all here. Its just a bloody listing of classes and equipment for frick sakes...

As I said, D&D-style (as opposed to primary world) armies have been done before. Everything from race-specific units (Dwarven sappers, Elven guerillas, Gnome commandos, Orc stormers) through monster mobs (blink dog packs, gaggles of cockatrice, swarms of spiders) to outright weird stuff (the flying broomstick air marines, thaumo-mechanical nautilus units). The above named sources were cited as inspiration as much as being examples of implementation.

Statting out unit upon unit of ablative armour troops as PC classed Fighter types by cost per unit seems overkill to me though. Surely keeping track of these armed yahoos is what your cohort is for? And - as they're non-heroic characters - surely Warrior would be more fitting (yes, even for elites like cataphracts)?

arguskos
2008-09-11, 08:36 AM
All that said, my suggestion for an army is investing in a single warmage, or a sorcerer with fireball and similar spells. Web, grease, and glitterdust are all nice for warfare, too. Fly and greater invisibility would let such a spellcaster defeat all of the units you've envisioned. Instead of blowing money on equipping units, spend it on wands and potions. (The weakness here, obviously, is that it only takes a single similarly high-powered character to take this dude out. Then again, a 10th-level fighter could pretty reliably kill that army of 160...)
This is the most important thing that can be said. I know you mentioned that spellcasters are rare (at best), but you really, REALLY need to get a few on your side. I suggest a Sorcerer of some kind, and probably a few Warmages. The best part about Warmages is that they can be trained if you have the money and the time. It's expensive as all hell, but it can be done. I'd also suggest you get some rogues with UMD and lots of potions/wands/scrolls of useful spells. Even just giving every person in your army a single potion of cure light wounds can work wonders.

-argus

Triaxx
2008-09-11, 08:49 AM
Even as a feudal lord, you don't need much of a standing army. A personal elite guard. Say six Fighters of the same level as you would get for leadership.

Then two dozen guards of half to two-thirds of that level. This is your castle guard.

The rest of the army, you do British style. No one works on sunday, because it's a day dedicated to practicing the arts of war. Archery, swordsmanship, work with pikes. Naturally, this is only farmers and townsfolk who aren't called upon for those skills every day, the way your rangers or town guards would be. Guardsmen would be excellent as commanders for pikes. By dispersing the out put through out the villages, you get a larger effective army, with a smaller monetary out put.

It also digs up talent easier. Need a new commander of archers? Send out word to the villages to hold archery tournaments. Winner comes to capital for tournament. Overall winner gets promotion.

You might want to give your Anti-Cavalry Improved Sunder and Maim. Nothing says 'Stop Cavalry' like cutting their speed in half.

Heavy Infantry? I'd drop the daggers and give them Javelin's instead. Romans knew enough to engage from range first, then hit them head on.

I also doubt the wisdom of giving heavy cavalry crossbows. They'll get far more damage from charging and can fight their way out of trouble anyway.

And as Tsotha-lanti pointed out, Heavy armor infantry is defensive in nature. It's the center of your army so it might be better to give the crossbows too.

All of this assumes purely human troops. Adding races adds tactics.

Adumbration
2008-09-11, 08:57 AM
I'd propose a Dragon Shaman or a Marshall as a sergeant/captain/combat medic. The last one especially if you're taking Dragon Shaman. Even a first level one is very useful, due to the fast heal aura.

A Cleric could be useful as well.

You might also want look at Heroes of Battle for siege engines (or DMG. HoB just has them on more detail). You could also either hire or train an Expert craftsman to craft them for you, to make it a lot cheaper. It is quite possible to do this at level 1 with ease. (4 ranks + Skill focus 3 + Int 1-3 + Masterwork Artisan tools +2 = +10-+13.)

Stupendous_Man
2008-09-11, 08:59 AM
The commoners with poor stats as level 1 warlocks with Eldritch Spear and Entropic Warding.

They may have low HP and horrible stats, but there are a heck of a lot of them, and they cost nothing to produce, compared to melee fighters that have to be trained, fed, and armored.

Toss on a dragonfire Inspiration bard (can get +3d6 damage with the right spells and feats) and you're pretty much set.

Magnor Criol
2008-09-11, 09:24 AM
The commoners with poor stats as level 1 warlocks with Eldritch Spear and Entropic Warding.
...
Toss on a dragonfire Inspiration bard (can get +3d6 damage with the right spells and feats) and you're pretty much set.

Kizara said this is a low-magic world. I somehow doubt he'll have a dragonfire bard lying around, and he certainly won't be able to turn his peasants into warlocks.

Overall, I tihnk you've got a nice setup and are headed in the right direction. I may be biased - I'm a bit of a sucker for mobility over heavy armor - but I'd build some more light, mobile units like light cavalry or horse archers. If you have wide open plains the enemy's going to be traveling across, mobile harassment units could do wonders for inflicting casualties and stomping morale.

On the subject of hitting armies marching over wide plains, perhaps invest in some siege equipment like ballistae. A line of those firing at troops in formation from large distances means heavy casualties before they can even imagine it.

Most of the other suggestions I agree with, especially throwing some marshals or bards into the mix.

Another thought, along those lines: Maybe spend less money on increasing the number of troops, and focus more on improving the quality of their armor, weapons, etc. I've always been a proponent of improving quality (which is why, in RTS games, you'll see me with half the troops and all the upgrades for them). This is especially important if you have a cap on how many men you can draft into your armies.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-11, 09:59 AM
Tactics-wise, the only real option is massed archers with some incidental pikemen and a lot of stakes driven into the ground. Suddenly, you can take on a force of heavy cavalry with five times your numbers. (Be sure to use the volley rules from Heroes of Battle.) If you want some of them to get around fast, give them riding horses - they won't fight mounted, but can cover distances quickly.

You can use these troops on open ground (though you'd want an obstacle - a river, a swamp, whatever - between you and the open ground), on broken ground (even better!), on battlements... whatever.

Vary their secondary equipment and armor a bit - handaxes, morningstars, leather or chainmail, maybe bucklers if you feel like spending, and even tower shields for a unit or two (you stick them in the ground and kneel behind them)... and you've got a more multi-purpose force capable of mopping up the demoralized enemy decimated by arrow volleys.

Oh, incidentally, on those pikemen - halberds are no good, since they've got no reach. Definitely longspears and short swords.

And on a technical note, your medium infantry is pretty much heavy infantry - armor on infantry didn't really get heavier than mail. Plate-armored troops on foot are just dismounted knights and men-at-arms (since, you know, marching in plate and then fighting for several hours is pretty much an impossible idea) - or, I suppose in this case, dwarven heavy infantry.

Note, too, that your proposed "super-heavy infantry" is not only a bit silly (what units ever carried tower shields - i.e., pavises, meant for archers to hide behind - and wore heavy armor?), but game-mechanics-wise they'd have to have Str 14+ to avoid being heavily loaded, or Str 19+ to avoid being under medium load. With an elite array, 14+ is doable, but I doubt they'd be marching much of anywhere.

arguskos
2008-09-11, 10:07 AM
I had a random thought: if you come under attack, and need to hold a chokepoint against an army, then you may wish to think about having an elite corps of defensive troops.

I'm thinking something like: Tower Shield, Chain Shirt, Long Sword. Give them lots of hyper-defensive feats (anything that increases their durability/ability to evade hits).

Tactically, walk them into said chokepoint, sit them in lines, and defend them with ranged cover fire. Also, get some commoners in there to hold shields over their heads, so random arrows don't gank them. It's not perfect, but I bet they will survive a damn long time before the enemy finally bashes through them, time that you can use to prepare counter-attacks and more powerful defenses.

-argus

Keld Denar
2008-09-11, 10:40 AM
I was reading through your Tome of House Rules, and this struck me as odd...



-Combat Reflexes allows you to make Attacks-of-Opportunity while flat-footed (but you must be aware of your opponent). This does not make you not flat-footed; it is not Uncanny Dodge.


Isn't this exactly what CR does? It has 2 functions, one is to grant you additional AoOs based on your dex bonus, and the other is to allow you to take AoOs while flat footed. Nowhere does it say anything else, like making you not flatfooted, with regards to being snuck attacked or recieving your dex bonus to AC.

Just curious as to the purpose of this redundant rule redundancy.

TempusCCK
2008-09-11, 12:44 PM
Looks like a good start. As with any tactical game of war, however, money is the key, you have alot of it we can see, but more would never hurt. More money is more troops and more troops is more power.

I'd start by trying to increase your income in some way, perhaps by doing some studying of crops and see how you can increase crop production (I.E find a way to make it seem feasible that someone in your employ invented crop rotation or some kind of crap.) Or expanding your operations, you could convince the DM that having soldiers work in mines or digging trenches a few days out of the week builds strength and allows them to get a feel for powerfully swinging weapons (I.E They're working on doing things to make your country better, but they're getting training at the same time. Obviously this won't work forever, but as much multi-tasking as could be done the better.)

Also, what's your trading situation like? Roads make it cheaper to maintain trading routes because you have to replace wagons and horses less, also imposing tariffs can help revenue generation. Play the market, be the savvy business man, ASK your DM where you get the things that your country uses and does not produce, then see if you can't get it from someone else cheaper, or get into negotiations to drive down the price from the guy you do get it from.

Remember: More money=More power.

Also, when it does come time to battle, don't forget the usefulness of a cleverly laid trap, even a small pit dug in the ground can stop up a line of charging horsemen for a while, or a while longer for your archers to dominate them.

Focus on Archers, as other have said, but don't forget about Seige Equipment. It's expensive, but man can it be devastating. Trebuchets are a rather simple design but are grand in use and power, and instead of focusing your men into many many calvary groups, use two or three very very highly trained ones, so when you need to rush the edge of a line, you know your guys are better than theirs.

If you focus on many archers and highly trained calvary, you can hit often and cheaply, then hit HARD when you need to.

My best advice for you.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-11, 01:39 PM
Siege engines aren't worth a lot. A single mid-level wizard or even rogue is worth more than any number of siege engines when laying siege to an enemy fortification. Even a mid-level fighter could just climb the wall, fight his way to the gatehouse, and open the gate. One invisibility spell will let a commoner achieve this.

Edit: And Calvary is still Golgotha, while cavalry fight mounted. They don't even sound the same.

TheThan
2008-09-11, 01:45 PM
What I want to know is what do you plan on doing with said army? Are you marching to war? Or is this a defensive force?

I know its low magic, but you really need to look into getting some clerics and bards. Clerics can buff and heal your forces, while bards provide boosts with their songs (drums anyone), and magic.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-11, 06:36 PM
Cleric healing for an army is rarely going to be worth it. One 1st-level cleric can cast CLW two or three times (a wand, obviously, will let them heal more, but you'll be paying absolutely ridiculous amounts for healing then), at best sparing you three casualties per day, but quite possibly just one. A bunch of experts with the Heal skill will probably be much more useful. You'd need well over a dozen to make much of a real difference for an army like this. Bless and bane may be more useful, obviously, and higher-level clerics would - obviously - clean house. Buff up, rout the enemy, MCSW the troops, and lead a pursuit!

Tar Palantir
2008-09-11, 06:49 PM
Even without actual clerics, if you have access to wands of CLW, train some 1st level rogues with UMD, Skill Focus, and the relevant +2 skill (can't recall the name). Take 10 to activate the wands, with no need for a standing caster. FAR more efficient than getting actual spellcasters and having them use the same wands anyway.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-11, 07:13 PM
50 gp per CLW is an outrageous price when we're talking about an army, really.

Besides, potions of CLW would cost the exact same, and require no UMD or cleric medics.

monty
2008-09-11, 08:15 PM
I'd suggest giving each rogue a handful of eternal wands, instead. Much more cost-effective in the long run.

tribble
2008-09-11, 08:30 PM
If you're going for realism, make the bulk of your army militia archers (commoners with crossbows, Longbows you need to train a long time) with some light infantry with longspears and shortswords, and a cadre of mounted knights (warriors or fighters with medium or heavy armour, hand weapons of some sort, maybe lances, shields, definately shields, horses, duh, a level or three beyond your average soldier, mounted combat feats.) for hitting stuff REALLY hard. it would help if you described the function of your army (conquest? defence?) and the terrain you expect to fight in (is the kingdom heavily forested? or is it more like Castille? fields? hills?)

MammonAzrael
2008-09-11, 08:50 PM
Even without actual clerics, if you have access to wands of CLW, train some 1st level rogues with UMD, Skill Focus, and the relevant +2 skill (can't recall the name). Take 10 to activate the wands, with no need for a standing caster. FAR more efficient than getting actual spellcasters and having them use the same wands anyway.

You can't take 10 on UMD unless you're a 4th level Warlock. I agree with getting your hands on some Eternal Wands of CLW (or Lesser Vigor).

It's probably too magical for your game, but consider an automatically resetting trap of CLW or Lesser Vigor. Overall likely much cheaper, and more effective, than a hospital or the like.

On the note of spies, see if you can find some Warlocks. Beguiling Influence, Entropic Warding, and Spiderwalk are all Least Invocations.

Outside of that, we really need to know what the army is intended to be used for. Expansion, rebellion, defense, Invasion? And what type of terrain you expect to use it in?

Ganurath
2008-09-12, 01:57 AM
Magic items cost double in this setting. Behold, my suggestions:

Battlefield Medic
L1 Expert - Any Race (Human or Halfling Prefered)
Equipment: Leather Armor, Club, (Masterwork?) Healer's Kit
Feats: Skill Focus (Heal), Self Sufficient if Human
Class Skills: Heal, Survival, Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Jump, Balance, Swim

The Battlefield Medic is a stand alone in small groups, a skirmishing team that mops up in multiple regiments, and one-per infantry squad in the full army.

Sentinel
L1 Expert - Any Race (Elf, Half-Elf, or Halfling Prefered)
Equipment: Leather Armor, Shortbow, Sickle
Feats: Alertness, Point Blank Shot if Human
Class Skills: Climb, Survival, Craft (Trapmaking,) Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Jump, Balance, Swim

A skirmishing unit that scouts out the enemy position and harries it with archer fire to disrupt their ranks. What would be great is if you could come up with mundane traps that can be set up on the field without being a Combat Trapsmith.

More to come, hopefully a job for those half-orcs you get in the peacetimes.

NeoVid
2008-09-12, 05:16 AM
If casters are not much of an option, get Marshals. This is what they're for.

Traps are also a good idea. We can see how the enemy's main charge turns out when they hit the caltrops or barbed wire.

Since casters are so rare, that just makes them more valuable. One guy with Fireball can dictate this war.

Oh, and strategic assassinations of the most important people on the other side. Don't forget the underhanded tactics.

Ganurath
2008-09-12, 01:41 PM
Archery Commander
L1 Ranger - Any (Half-Orc discouraged)
Equipment: Studded Leather, Longbow, Short Sword
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Far Shot if Human
Skills: Spot, Listen, Survival, Heal
Favored Enemy: Whoever's been attacking lately.

The Archery Commander is the one who pinpoints targets for the Arrow Volley attack on pg. 124 of Complete Warrior.

Frontliner
L1 Warrior - Any (Half-Orc or Human prefered)
Equipment: Longspear, Shortspear, Studded Leather, Heavy Steel Shield
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Quick Draw if Human
Skills: Intimidate? Who cares, it's a Frontliner

The Frontliner has Shortspears and Shields in the front lines, Longspears in the rear. If enemy troops try to move in over a fallen Frontliner, they're looking at up to five AoOs. If forced to mop up due to area spells, siege weapons, or big bad monsters, their Light Armor and non-Dwarfness will help them have a mobility edge over their foes.

Frontliner Commander
L1 Marshal - I don't know the stuff for the Marshal class. One to each regiment, with the same equipment if Shield Proficiency isn't an issue.

Frontliner Support
L1 Bard - Any (Half-Orc discouraged)
Equipment: Longspear, Studded Leather
Feats: Extra Music, Toughness if Human (need the extra hp)
Skills: Perform and Concentration are musts, w/e for the rest
Spells Known: Message, Mending, Detect Magic, Dancing Lights
Special: Healing Hymn, if only help help the wounded between battles.

If you can get Bards in addition to Marshals, do so. Oh, DO SO. Being able to cast Message alone allows for rapid communication among the ranks, and Dancing Lights allows for signalling the army as a whole. Nevermind the boost they provide to the troops. Healing Hymn is from Complete Champion, so you know.

Triaxx
2008-09-12, 04:41 PM
Bluff is more useful for a frontliner so he can succeed at feint. Shortspear wielders could have Tower shields if you're using a Roman tactic, the large shields for Greek.

I'd dump mending for CMW. It'll stabilize and give time for them to be withdrawn.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-09-12, 04:46 PM
Attack Infants? Large Attack Infants? "Release the War toddlers! The Diapers of rage are upon ye!"

Either way, Yeomen are a great asset to any budding army. They lack the armor-piercing power of Crossbows, but they can fire a LOT faster... I think it's why the english beat the french back in the middle ages.

Ganurath
2008-09-12, 04:47 PM
Bluff is more useful for a frontliner so he can succeed at feint. Shortspear wielders could have Tower shields if you're using a Roman tactic, the large shields for Greek.

I'd dump mending for CMW. It'll stabilize and give time for them to be withdrawn.1. Between Bluff being a CC skill for warriors and how opponents would probably only have +1 Dex, it isn't worth the effort.

2. According to the SRD, Bards don't have CMW.

Kizara
2008-09-12, 10:15 PM
1) Stop suggesting warlocks or massing wizards or other magical cheese. It is so contrary to the setting its not even amusing. We don't generally use the MIC anyways. You are missing the point.

Trust me, my other character is a gestalt DMM cleric that is absurdly powerful and has a IotSFV cohort. Magic solves everything and she is just ridiculous in melee.
My point is that its not what THIS campaign (or thread) is about.

2) I have ONE level 3 cleric in service to my house, he administers religious affairs of the region. He is also there if I or my family have any pressing medical issues. I don't know if he can make potions, but I doubt it.

3) There is no way for me to easily purchase magical items of any kind. I would have to travel to the larger markets out East or hope for passing merchants to carry something. I'll be on the look out for anything of obvious use, but custom-made magical 'cure traps' or other such nonsense aren't going to happen.

4) Bards/minstrels are of course a good idea. I don't know if I can find an actual 'bard', but I certinally am going to try. Bardic music itself multiplied by X guys will make a big difference. Great for morale too. I might use my cohort (leadership feat) on such when I pick it up in a couple levels.

5) The mixed spear unit is a good idea. Thanks. My character is a 4th-level ranger and actually has the Archery Commander aura. Indeed, we use the Heroes of Battle.

6) Now Marshall is a great idea that I feel stupid for not thinking of myself. Thanks for reminding me.

7) I do indeed want some heavy calv, but unfortunately they are out of my current price range. See my cost estimates in my OP.

8) I have given a description of my lands and their threats in my OP, have another look please. As for the purpose, right now its mainly defensive with skirmish ability. I am looking to go on a longer campaign in the future (once I have built up a much larger force) against the neighboring hobgoblin empire. Also, I may get involved in the civil war back East at some point and thus need infantry suited for fighting urban battles as well as counters to heavy calvary (which is highly favored).

9) To the guy that found the redundantcy in my Tome, thanks. I somehow got mixed up looking from SW:RCE, 3.0 PHB and 3.5 PHB.

10) I agree with those that suggest that I should focus on archers and light calvary, and such is my intent.


If I missed anything or you have anything else to add/ask me, please do so.
Also, thanks to everyone that's contributed to this thread, even if it was to say "Just go hire wizards!".

turkishproverb
2008-09-12, 10:33 PM
I know you said low magic, but what intelligent races are there in this setting, and which ones would have people willing to work for you?

Kizara
2008-09-12, 10:58 PM
I know you said low magic, but what intelligent races are there in this setting, and which ones would have people willing to work for you?

Ok, as a list:

1) To the west (after a couple weeks foot travel of plains) is a very large forest that contains some goblins and much further to the west is a large empire of hobgoblins (not an immediate threat). My forces often skirmish with goblin raiding parties making their way across the plains. Oh, the goblins frequently ride wrogs that make life difficult for us.

2) To the north, I have a fairly large but not exceptionally tall mountain range. In it lies ogres and giants (hill near my lands, frost deeper in the interior). Also, some dwarves are rumored to lie SOMEWHERE in the mountains.

3) To the south/southeast I have a marsh/swampland that houses alot of nasty things. Trolls are a mainstay, Will-O-Wisps are common and their are some lizardfolk. Right now, I deal with any straying trolls but mostly just leave that place alone as I have no real way to deal with Will-O-Wisps.

4) In the western forest lie Elves, although I have no regular contact with them. When they do send a trade delegation they are greated warmly and have good relations with us.


Currently, I have made friends (just last session!) with a small tribe of hill giants. They are unwilling to serve as troops, but we developed trade relations and exchanged information.


I should also point out that my character is fairly Chivalrous, and does not really want to openly consort with monstrous beings too much. He is not Saruman. His alignment is LN leaning towards LG.

TheThan
2008-09-12, 11:58 PM
I like your basic idea for an army.

How are you planning to deploy your army?
Shield wall in the front, archers behind with cavalry in the wings?

Anyway here are a few ideas. You said there’s elves in the forest. Try to contact them and see if they will enter into a mutual protection agreement. Then maybe you can swing some elvish archers or maybe some rangers. (ought to be better than what you can field, though they may be expensive). maybe you can use the hobgoblins as a threat for them to make that decision easier... no I'm not suggesting you provoke them into attacking elves. just mention that they're there and that they're very well organized.

Additionally you might be able to get a hold of some ogres or trolls and train them as heavy infantry/shock troops, equip them with scale mail and watch them squish your enemies. 9 foot 500-750 pound monsters in heavy armor should scare and demoralize your enemies quite effectively. Plus the troll regeneration will keep them alive a lot longer (and cut back on medical expenses).

You also might be able to buy hobgoblin mercenaries to supplement your forces. I don’t know how much that’ll cost you (it’ll be up to your DM). That might piss off your newly acquired elvish allies though. So check with them first. Although that doesn't look like it's your cup O tea.

Befriending some giants is great, they may be able to point out the location of those dwarves you mentioned. They may be able to provide you with some resources like iron or something. Not sure really.

kjones
2008-09-13, 12:07 AM
Second troll mercs, even if it just means that you have them held in cages, then point them in the general direction of the enemy. They'll be forced to kill it with fire, and it makes for a great distraction.

Kizara
2008-09-13, 12:19 AM
I like your basic idea for an army.

How are you planning to deploy your army?
Shield wall in the front, archers behind with cavalry in the wings?

Anyway here are a few ideas. You said there’s elves in the forest. Try to contact them and see if they will enter into a mutual protection agreement. Then maybe you can swing some elvish archers or maybe some rangers. (ought to be better than what you can field, though they may be expensive). maybe you can use the hobgoblins as a threat for them to make that decision easier... no I'm not suggesting you provoke them into attacking elves. just mention that they're there and that they're very well organized.

Additionally you might be able to get a hold of some ogres or trolls and train them as heavy infantry/shock troops, equip them with scale mail and watch them squish your enemies. 9 foot 500-750 pound monsters in heavy armor should scare and demoralize your enemies quite effectively. Plus the troll regeneration will keep them alive a lot longer (and cut back on medical expenses).

You also might be able to buy hobgoblin mercenaries to supplement your forces. I don’t know how much that’ll cost you (it’ll be up to your DM). That might piss off your newly acquired elvish allies though. So check with them first. Although that doesn't look like it's your cup O tea.

Befriending some giants is great, they may be able to point out the location of those dwarves you mentioned. They may be able to provide you with some resources like iron or something. Not sure really.


You have some very valid ideas that are unfortunately largely unfeasible.

1) The elves are unreachable. They are VERY far into the forest and I only have the faintest idea where (somewhere west-southwest). However, they stop in every couple of years and I was already going to see how much I could work out with them. In the meantime I am trying to build a culture of archery by doing things like holding public tournaments and giving at-cost bows to my people.

2) Hobgoblins are on "shoot on sight" terms. They are the dark filth that threatens to spread across my lands. I have no intention of doing anything that doesn't involve bow-work regarding them. Well, I'll follow the rules of civilized warfare as long as they do.

3) Problem with the idea for monsterous troops is that they are hard to control, are not loyal, are very bad for one's reputation and have a tendancy to be almost as big of a threat to your troops as theirs. That being said, having units of troll pikemen or heavy attack infantry (LotRs Attack Trolls!) would be just awesome.

4) As for my giant friends, they mainly provided me with very detailed information of the general mountains and the habits and locations of other, less-friendly, giant tribes. Which will be invaluable. Their leader is a 5th-level druid, so that has its own possibilities.

5) As for my army (thanks for the compliment!), I intend to have a large amount of light calvary skirmishers/horse archers to go harrass the crap out of them and pull them out of position. Then, move my large force of archers into position and start raining down some serious fire. Then, as they try to move on the archers (protected by pikes), move some heavy tower shield infantry in to hold them. Then have the horsemen come around and combination-charge them in the flanks/rear as they are trying to contend with my infantry (hopefully my bow work has thinned alot of their horse by this point). Finally, have shock troop attack infantry storm in as the deffense infantry hunker down to really crack them and solidify the momentum. The horses then withdraw and ethier provide ranged support picking at flanks or charge-wheel them until they are decimated.

TheThan
2008-09-13, 12:37 AM
Shucks

Well anyway at least you can give your troops some experience by fighting the hobgoblins. Since veteran troops are generally better than fresh meat conscripts.

Adumbration
2008-09-13, 12:44 AM
You could send someone to be trained by the druid. I'm pretty sure it would cost you, but down the road, you'd get a druid.

turkishproverb
2008-09-13, 12:45 AM
Ok, as a list:

1) To the west (after a couple weeks foot travel of plains) is a very large forest that contains some goblins and much further to the west is a large empire of hobgoblins (not an immediate threat). My forces often skirmish with goblin raiding parties making their way across the plains. Oh, the goblins frequently ride wrogs that make life difficult for us.

2) To the north, I have a fairly large but not exceptionally tall mountain range. In it lies ogres and giants (hill near my lands, frost deeper in the interior). Also, some dwarves are rumored to lie SOMEWHERE in the mountains.

3) To the south/southeast I have a marsh/swampland that houses alot of nasty things. Trolls are a mainstay, Will-O-Wisps are common and their are some lizardfolk. Right now, I deal with any straying trolls but mostly just leave that place alone as I have no real way to deal with Will-O-Wisps.

4) In the western forest lie Elves, although I have no regular contact with them. When they do send a trade delegation they are greated warmly and have good relations with us.


Currently, I have made friends (just last session!) with a small tribe of hill giants. They are unwilling to serve as troops, but we developed trade relations and exchanged information.


I should also point out that my character is fairly Chivalrous, and does not really want to openly consort with monstrous beings too much. He is not Saruman. His alignment is LN leaning towards LG.

Ah. Thanks for the details. However depending on the way your setting is run, I'm not sure racist would qualify as Chivalrous. As I said, that depends on setting.

I would hold tight to any relations you'd already made though. Are these standard tolkien style elves? try to find out if they have members who find their society too rigid, or just leave to discover the world/find their own path. You might be able to employ them as scouts when and if they go out adventuring on their own.

How are your relations with the lizardfolk? Bad or worse? If they contact you, I'd provably make nice as they're alot more organized than the trolls. Don't look weak though.

Keep the alliance with the giants close. They may be able to help broker other alliances in time. Be sure to offer safe harbor should they need to enter your lands. Same goes for the elves.

As to the goblins, send patrols to your borders to keep them off, but be careful about trying to crush them, as weird things happen when you do that to goblins. Don't bother trying to hire any.

If you meet the dwarves, you might want to figure out what their opinions of hte other races you've befriended are.

And remember: mutual defense treaties promising some small amount of troops sent can be very helpful.

As to your troops, don't rely too much on cavalry as a good set of pikemen can crush them. Look to adding sentrytowers with arrowslits as secondary windows.

Kizara
2008-09-13, 01:11 AM
Ah. Thanks for the details. However depending on the way your setting is run, I'm not sure racist would qualify as Chivalrous. As I said, that depends on setting.

One word: Infidels.
As a bonus, this setting goes even further with DnD morality to have a codified "god of light" (beyond Pelor) and dark and defined forces for both.


I would hold tight to any relations you'd already made though. Are these standard tolkien style elves? try to find out if they have members who find their society too rigid, or just leave to discover the world/find their own path. You might be able to employ them as scouts when and if they go out adventuring on their own.

Thing is they are very far away past all the goblins. However, if this comes up I'll be sure to swipe them up. Can always use more commanders for scouts/archers. I haven't thought of the elven wanderlust myself, so its a possibility.


How are your relations with the lizardfolk? Bad or worse? If they contact you, I'd provably make nice as they're alot more organized than the trolls. Don't look weak though.

None, currently. They have their own problems and don't bother us. I am loathe to go there because I don't want another conflict right now and I can't handle will-o-wisps.


Keep the alliance with the giants close. They may be able to help broker other alliances in time. Be sure to offer safe harbor should they need to enter your lands. Same goes for the elves.

That is actually exactly what happened. The giants came down from the mountains due to the very harsh winter and I sold them the spare food I had stored in case of siege. Mind you, this was after I nearly killed their war leader (not the druid) with my initial arrow volley. My archers made me proud. :)


As to the goblins, send patrols to your borders to keep them off, but be careful about trying to crush them, as weird things happen when you do that to goblins. Don't bother trying to hire any.
Yep, that's what all the light calvary is for.


If you meet the dwarves, you might want to figure out what their opinions of hte other races you've befriended are.
A valid point. The whole dwarves vs giants thing may be an issue, but its also not like I have super-close ties to the (one) band of giants anyways.


And remember: mutual defense treaties promising some small amount of troops sent can be very helpful.
I actually have one with the giant tribe (10 adult combatants) I befriended.


As to your troops, don't rely too much on cavalry as a good set of pikemen can crush them. Look to adding sentrytowers with arrowslits as secondary windows.

I see the calvary as more "mounted archers that can charge if the opportunity presents itself", and intend to get some of those pikes myself. :) If you check out my construction projects thread (link in OP), it includes a 30ft tall stone watchtower on a hill between my lands and the goblin forest (on a ridge line in the plains).



You could send someone to be trained by the druid. I'm pretty sure it would cost you, but down the road, you'd get a druid.

Great idea! Don't know if I'll be able to, as finding someone interested and then getting a hill giant (they ARE fairly reclusive) to accept one as an apprentice may not be doable. And remember its a druid not a wizard, he won't just want a big purse to do it, it has to make sense to his spiritual inclinations. Nonetheless, good idea if I can manage it.

Druids are sooo awesome for large-scale battles, they beat the snot out of wizards of equal level.

Triaxx
2008-09-13, 06:25 AM
Racial tensions could work to your advantage on finding the dwarves. If the Hill Giants are enemies, they'll know where the Dwarves are. If they are allies, they'll possibly know where they are.

Additionally, the giants might not want to fight for you, but you might be able to talk them into helping you speed construction. I imagine you've got horses dragging stone to build the watch tower. The giants could probably carry it just as effectively, or lift it into place easier. What takes men a day to do, a giant could do in minutes.

If you have to go past the goblins to find the elves, it would explain the infrequency of their visits. A short campaign against the goblins might cut their numbers enough that the elves might come for a visit. On the other hand an allegiance with the goblins for safe passage and a guide to the elves might mean they won't ally with the hobgobs when they come marching down your throat.

A diplo-rogue would be able to avoid the Will-o-wisps, and talk to the lizardfolk. Perhaps it's a problem you can help with, such as plagued by troll attacks. You could then send them a shipment of Alchemists fire.

Even a level 1 Druid is a boon to your archers if you can generate a choke point. Cast Entangle and anyone that runs in stands a good chance of being stopped dead for your archers to pincushion.

You're planning on becoming involved in the civil war. Are the opinions of the other side really so important? I guarantee if your troll pikes stop up the heavy cavalry, no one will mention that they are 9-feet tall and green. And if they do you just take them prisoner and feed them to the trolls.

Kizara
2008-09-13, 06:53 AM
Racial tensions could work to your advantage on finding the dwarves. If the Hill Giants are enemies, they'll know where the Dwarves are. If they are allies, they'll possibly know where they are.
Good point.


Additionally, the giants might not want to fight for you, but you might be able to talk them into helping you speed construction. I imagine you've got horses dragging stone to build the watch tower. The giants could probably carry it just as effectively, or lift it into place easier. What takes men a day to do, a giant could do in minutes.

Its a valid idea but I don't want to strain my very fragile new alliance for something so minor. They are going back to live in their mountains the second spring hits (long before I will be ready to start building) and going to them and asking them to go a rather long distance to help what is a really small project is unnecessary. Maybe for the massive garrison-complex I have planned for a couple years down the road.


If you have to go past the goblins to find the elves, it would explain the infrequency of their visits. A short campaign against the goblins might cut their numbers enough that the elves might come for a visit. On the other hand an allegiance with the goblins for safe passage and a guide to the elves might mean they won't ally with the hobgobs when they come marching down your throat.

The gobbos are already basically ensalved by the hobgobbos. It is an easy matter to intimidate one into giving me things like basic information, but they are disorganized and nearly useless (IMO) in a real fight. I don't value having a bunch of disloyal, cowardly irregulars of poor ability. I would get further just training a few hundred people how to use crossbows.


A diplo-rogue would be able to avoid the Will-o-wisps, and talk to the lizardfolk. Perhaps it's a problem you can help with, such as plagued by troll attacks. You could then send them a shipment of Alchemists fire.

For one, you would need ranger skills to get through the terrain alone. For another, the Wisps are very prevelant and nasty as heck to deal with. It would certinally be cool to be able to though. Thanks for the input/suggestion.


Even a level 1 Druid is a boon to your archers if you can generate a choke point. Cast Entangle and anyone that runs in stands a good chance of being stopped dead for your archers to pincushion.

For sure. I can actually do it myself as I'm using a houserule variant that gives rangers their casting progression from level 1 (instead of 4), adds 1 spell per day in general, and has their progression go from there; granting 2nd-level spells at 5th level and so forth. Thus, right now as scout 1/ranger 3 I can cast 3 1st-level spells/day. I generally prepare entangle, light and CLW.


You're planning on becoming involved in the civil war. Are the opinions of the other side really so important? I guarantee if your troll pikes stop up the heavy cavalry, no one will mention that they are 9-feet tall and green. And if they do you just take them prisoner and feed them to the trolls.

I see where you are comming from, but his honor and integrity are more important to him then merely the social ramifications. Nonetheless, if I could manage to swing the trolls I'd probably do it. They will simply be such amazing troops its wroth the reputation hit. It would be just ridiculous trying to take down a unit of 10 troll beserkers (lvl 1 barb ftw!) with greatswords. Remember, they likely don't have magic.

Also, your comment made me smile.

Thanks for all your input!

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-13, 11:16 AM
Either way, Yeomen are a great asset to any budding army. They lack the armor-piercing power of Crossbows, but they can fire a LOT faster... I think it's why the english beat the french back in the middle ages.

Actually, a crossbow is not better at penetrating armor than a longbow with a bodkin arrow. The pull on a proper longbow is pretty immense and all, and the bodkin arrow would puncture right through armor, basically.

In D&D, there's never any reason, what-so-ever, to go with crossbow over longbow, unless you're using commoner militia archers (and, for some reason, not having them put one of their two feats - they're human, surely - into Martial Weapon Proficiency).

Mephit
2008-09-13, 11:55 AM
In D&D, there's never any reason, what-so-ever, to go with crossbow over longbow, unless you're using commoner militia archers (and, for some reason, not having them put one of their two feats - they're human, surely - into Martial Weapon Proficiency).


Why not let them put a feat into Exotic Weapon proficiency: Greatbow for maximum efficiency? (Can get expensive, though...)

Alchemy is also always a thing to consider in low-magic campaigns. See if you can find an alchemist, and purchase some Gnome Calaculuses.(Arms an Eq guide, lets you fire alchemical items at 50' range)

Edit: And why use daggers for the Spear troups? Wouldn't Morning stars be more efficient? (It's also kind of more authentic: In feudal battles, morningstars were common weapons for the untrained)

Kizara
2008-09-13, 04:12 PM
Why not let them put a feat into Exotic Weapon proficiency: Greatbow for maximum efficiency? (Can get expensive, though...)

Alchemy is also always a thing to consider in low-magic campaigns. See if you can find an alchemist, and purchase some Gnome Calaculuses.(Arms an Eq guide, lets you fire alchemical items at 50' range)

Edit: And why use daggers for the Spear troups? Wouldn't Morning stars be more efficient? (It's also kind of more authentic: In feudal battles, morningstars were common weapons for the untrained)

Indeed.

A light crossbow is 35 gp, a longbow is 75. When you multiply that out by 20, it is a rather large difference: 700 vs 1500. If you are recruiting militia you try to keep costs down, as they are poorly-trained troops. You don't go overboard on nice equipment.

In comparison, a shortbow is 30 gp (or 600 for a unit) but does 1-2 less damage and allows for greater mobility.


As for daggers vs morningstars, same idea. Daggers for a unit (remember daggers are also a stable tool, needed for many general tasks such as eating) cost 40gp, morningstars cost 160. Honestly, they aren't really MEANT to not be using their spears, but you have a good point. I'll consider upgrading their secondary weapons.

Thanks for the input.

turkishproverb
2008-09-13, 04:30 PM
What about non-intelligent monsters? have you conisdered hunting down and training a Rust Monster? It could prove REALLY useful as a weapon...

Koalita
2008-09-13, 05:20 PM
Get diplomacy. A lot of it. Then persuade your sister to take crafty feats, so she can make you some magic items for reduced costs :P

If you can persuade your sister without the diplomacy, that'd be even better :P

Edit:
About dagger vs morningstar: morningstar costs x4, but deals an average of 4.5 damage, vs 2.5 from a dagger. Level 1 warriors have 8+con bonus+toughness (maybe) hit points. The chance of one hitting someone instead of needing 2-3 hits, may well be worth the x4 cost.
On the other hand, Greatclubs have a great damage, with the main drawback of it being two handed and needing a martial proficiency. Think about getting some berserker-like troops those greatclubs.

Edit2:
About feats... What are your actual units feats? Maybe I missed them somewhere... If you are arming human militia, and can spare a 13 con on them... Give them toughness and endurance, so they can also act as wounded bringers :P You know, running around with ~14 hp at full movespeed with 1-2 wounded comrades to be healed. Takes more than 1 hit/shot to bring him down.

Kizara
2008-09-14, 02:20 AM
Get diplomacy. A lot of it. Then persuade your sister to take crafty feats, so she can make you some magic items for reduced costs :P

If you can persuade your sister without the diplomacy, that'd be even better :P

His current Diplomacy modifier is 14 (at level 4).

It's actually 2 (twin) sisters, who have just started their training and are currently 10 years old. So it definately is a future boon but not something of immediate use. While having someone to craft wonderous items or upgrade arms and armor would be fantastic, it may not be something they are interested in, even with encouragement. Sorcerors make rather poor crafters in general, and often are not possesed of the drive and professionalism found in wizards.



Edit:
About dagger vs morningstar: morningstar costs x4, but deals an average of 4.5 damage, vs 2.5 from a dagger. Level 1 warriors have 8+con bonus+toughness (maybe) hit points. The chance of one hitting someone instead of needing 2-3 hits, may well be worth the x4 cost.
On the other hand, Greatclubs have a great damage, with the main drawback of it being two handed and needing a martial proficiency. Think about getting some berserker-like troops those greatclubs.

Remember we are talking about secondary weapons on a longspear unit. They aren't supposed to rely on them.
That being said, I think upgrading their secondary weapons to shortspears would be worthwhile. They can throw them, and they only lose 1-2 damage in melee and they are very cheap.



Edit2:
About feats... What are your actual units feats? Maybe I missed them somewhere... If you are arming human militia, and can spare a 13 con on them... Give them toughness and endurance, so they can also act as wounded bringers :P You know, running around with ~14 hp at full movespeed with 1-2 wounded comrades to be healed. Takes more than 1 hit/shot to bring him down.

Well, my future units have their feats listed. The current ones do not, but they are generally Weapon focus (primary weapon), and *feat that helps them perform main function*. For example, Longbowmen have far shot, pikes get combat reflexes, and skirmishers have point blank shot.

I haven't given anyone toughness, since I didn't really think 3 hp would add all that much compared to what other feats offered. Perhaps I will reconsider, but I just always seem to have a greater need for my few feats.

And I'm currently not using militia beyond policiing duties and such, as personally I just could never stand strategies/playstyles involving large amount of crap units/spam. I always want to play the guys with 1/4 as many guys that if used properly can turn the tide. Give me Spartans over Persians any day! :)

That being said, I doubtless will throw some xbow militia and spear levies together in an emergency. Thing is, since the militia aren't properly trained, I can't dictate their feats. So its a mute point.



What about non-intelligent monsters? have you conisdered hunting down and training a Rust Monster? It could prove REALLY useful as a weapon...

Its not something that has come up much so far. The best I can think of right now is that their are dire wolves in the forest that could, theorectically be trained to be war-ready and used as a sort of improved heavy calvary. Also, there was this pretty nasty worm (large-long sized) that he encounted in those woods that I may try to transplant into some of the gobbos tunnels/warrens. I'll be on the lookout for future opportunities.




New question to throw out there:
I am picking up leadership at 6th and can have anything not totally out there for my cohort. Artificers don't exist in the setting, just fyi (already asked :smallbiggrin:). Any ideas/recomendations?

Doresain
2008-09-14, 12:19 PM
two words my friend...cube jockeys

there is an amulet that lets you ride gelatinous cubes...get a few of those and train some guys to really good at lead them, and you have a pretty awesome attack force there

Adumbration
2008-09-14, 12:30 PM
If you have access to ToB and your DM approves, White Raven Crusader wouldn't be bad. A multi-class fighter/marshal wouldn't be bad either, for an adjutant of sorts or a captain.

TheThan
2008-09-14, 01:22 PM
Hmm I suggest you get some sort of magic user cohort to go with your feat.

The way I see its you have three viable options, a bard, another cleric (army chaplain), or a sorcerer (since your sister is still in training). It doesn’t seem like a wizard would be in your reach, though it doesn’t hurt to find out.

Other good ideas are a paladin to act as captain of the guard/second in command, a rogue to act as a spy (it'd be fun a secondary character), and a ranger/scout to act as a forward scout.

Adumbration
2008-09-14, 01:30 PM
Actually, a Wilderness rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) might be very nice for this. He could scout for you, and act as an ambassador for the elves, dwarves and giants. He might find out the locations of the two by himself, sneaking behind the enemy lines, listening to conversations, etc.

turkishproverb
2008-09-15, 02:47 AM
New question to throw out there:
I am picking up leadership at 6th and can have anything not totally out there for my cohort. Artificers don't exist in the setting, just fyi (already asked :smallbiggrin:). Any ideas/recomendations?

a dwarf sorcerer :P

What is your leadership score going to be? I'd probably argue relations with the elves as an excuse to get a elf/half elf Bard or wizard.

Kizara
2008-09-15, 04:58 AM
a dwarf sorcerer :P

What is your leadership score going to be? I'd probably argue relations with the elves as an excuse to get a elf/half elf Bard or wizard.

Well:

6 (level) + 3 (charisma) + 2 (stronghold) + 2 (nobility, DM ruling) + 1 (fairness and generousity) +1 (great renown) - 1 (aloofness).

So, 15. This is DM-approved btw, we already discussed it and arrived at that number.

Remember though, that you can't get a cohort higher then your level -2, regardless of your leadership score. The main thing the feat will do for me is a bunch of no upkeep troops. :)


As for your ideas, about what I was thinking of too. The bard especially.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-15, 05:35 AM
The main thing the feat will do for me is a bunch of no upkeep troops. :)

I think you mean no pay; surely you'll still have to provide food and board for them? (I didn't even factor in pay in my maintenance estimate before.)

Kizara
2008-09-15, 06:18 AM
I think you mean no pay; surely you'll still have to provide food and board for them? (I didn't even factor in pay in my maintenance estimate before.)

We don't generally go into that level of detail, as its alot to keep track of as it is.

The way the leadership feat works (as I read it) is that these people choose to follow you for free and join your noble cause.

Kinda like crusaders that would join up out of religious obligation and forage for themselves as they undertook their pilgrimage.

turkishproverb
2008-09-18, 02:38 AM
Well:

6 (level) + 3 (charisma) + 2 (stronghold) + 2 (nobility, DM ruling) + 1 (fairness and generousity) +1 (great renown) - 1 (aloofness).

So, 15. This is DM-approved btw, we already discussed it and arrived at that number.

Remember though, that you can't get a cohort higher then your level -2, regardless of your leadership score. The main thing the feat will do for me is a bunch of no upkeep troops. :)

Wow. Awesome sauce. That could be really useful


As for your ideas, about what I was thinking of too. The bard especially.

Yea, i'd probably go with a Bard as the "Main cohort" and if he lets you get a blaster wizard/enchanter of some sort too. Try to push the race issue though, it could come in handy.

Ganurath
2008-09-18, 02:58 AM
If you can get a Bard, not just a bard, I suggest you look into the instruments from Complete Adventurer. All mundane, all altering the bardic music:

Drum: +1 on morale bonus to damage from inspire courage, and -1 reduction to the bonus to saves. Unless you're expecting dragons, this is a trade to your favor, as it's essentially +1 to hit and +2 damage.
Horn: +1 to morale bonus to damage and fear from inspire courage, but only lasts a round after the playing stops. Not to big an issue, though, with Extra Music.
Mandolin: +1 on morale bonuses to hit from inspire courage, but a -1 reduction to saves and damage bonuses. Rather iffy. Which do you prefer: +2 to hit, or +1 to hit and +2 to damage (which you get with the other instruments.)

If he'll let you reference 3.0's Song and Silence...

Alphorn: The alphorn's deep pitch carries its sound a distance of 1d10 miles. This allows the use of inspire greatness, countersong, and inspire courage effects even when great distances seperate the musician from his or her listeners. Or, in this case, when your listeners consist of the entire army.

Kizara
2008-09-18, 04:44 AM
If you can get a Bard, not just a bard, I suggest you look into the instruments from Complete Adventurer. All mundane, all altering the bardic music:

Drum: +1 on morale bonus to damage from inspire courage, and -1 reduction to the bonus to saves. Unless you're expecting dragons, this is a trade to your favor, as it's essentially +1 to hit and +2 damage.
Horn: +1 to morale bonus to damage and fear from inspire courage, but only lasts a round after the playing stops. Not to big an issue, though, with Extra Music.
Mandolin: +1 on morale bonuses to hit from inspire courage, but a -1 reduction to saves and damage bonuses. Rather iffy. Which do you prefer: +2 to hit, or +1 to hit and +2 to damage (which you get with the other instruments.)

If he'll let you reference 3.0's Song and Silence...

Alphorn: The alphorn's deep pitch carries its sound a distance of 1d10 miles. This allows the use of inspire greatness, countersong, and inspire courage effects even when great distances seperate the musician from his or her listeners. Or, in this case, when your listeners consist of the entire army.

Nice, I never really looked at any of that. It'll work great flavor-wise too. Thanks alot for the advice, I'll be sure to use it.

Rion
2008-09-18, 11:23 AM
What does your DM think about obligatory military service? I mention it because it was historically used a lot to raise cheap armies.
Two examples:
1)The feudal system: Grant some minor villages to some elite soldiers. Let the soldiers gain the taxes, but demand that they pay for their own equipment, that of a small squad of their own and to fight for you without compensation. You lose some taxes, but raising armies is easier. Beware of disloyal persons though, nothing could hurt you more than these soldiers growing ambitous.

2)The Byzantine system: This system means smaller armies, but far better soldiers. Basically you relinquish some persons from militia service or lower the taxes for them, in exchange they have to pay a different persons equipment and training. Its quite hard to explain, but let me give you an example: You divide a village into smaller parts of (for example) four peasants, all four peasants work, but three of doesn't have to train and none of them pays taxes, in exchange they have to pay for the fourth persons equipment, and there is no limit on how long you require him to fight for you. Instead of four normal militiamen, you gain one who is well equipped.

Also look into horses for the heavier troops (such as the heavy pikes), not for use on the battlefield, but ensure your army travels faster. Never underestimate mobility.

Johel
2008-09-18, 01:45 PM
2)The Byzantine system: This system means smaller armies, but far better soldiers...

Also look into horses for the heavier troops (such as the heavy pikes), not for use on the battlefield, but ensure your army travels faster. Never underestimate mobility.

I like the idea of the Byzantine system. It helps to avoid a hereditary nobility. You don't share the power and your heirs don't get problem with disloyal vassals after you die. +You get good quality troops, which is maybe more costly but is far more reliable.

So, better have a professional army which move regulary, though.
Yes, it's costly but it's a loyal tool (you pay them and they don't get stuck in local politic). You can still have the english system of compulsory archery practice (or replace it with other kind of weapon, your choice...). It will provide a ready-to-use militia in case you need it but they will not get the discipline and equipement of regular troops, so you avoid revolt in peace time.

And yes, mounted infantry is definitely the way to go for professional troops.

EDIT : anybody's eard of the Mamelouks, Janitaries and so ? You take orphans, abandonned children, slave children,... well, any children who does not get a family. You put him in a military school and train him. As a young orphan, during the middle age, you would most of the time die starving or become a beggar, a thief or something the society don't like that much. So, by providing those children with a job, you kinda save them. Historically, Janitaries were the most elite and loyal troops of the Ottoman Empire, though they were kinda corrupted in the end, when the system become hereditary.

Triaxx
2008-09-18, 01:45 PM
Obviously they wouldn't work for free, but that being the case, perhaps you could hire them to build something you couldn't normally do. Instead of a wooden gate, use an iron one. Having a much heavier door when enemies come knocking is a very good idea. Especially if it's faced with wood.

Offering them a chance to get out from under the Hobgob's thumb might be enough of an incentive. I'm not suggesting you use them for troops, but since they live in the forest, they probably know how not to be slaughtered by Will-o-wisps.

Unfortunately, since this is such a low magic campaign the standard method of dealing with them isn't applicable. (Magic Missile spam.) The alternative is likely to gain more enemies than friends. (Burn the forest down.) I'll think on it.

Yes, Trolls rule as Shock Troops. Speaking of which, there's no conveinent place to put your hands on elephant cavalry is there? Probably not. Most DM's are so forgetful about the fun things... :smallbiggrin:

Agreed about the horses though. Marching foot troops leaves you with tired troops and morale penalties. You'll probably want a breeding program so you're not buying all the horses. It also gives your light Cavalry something to do instead of sitting around waiting to go on patrol. Plus you can sell surplus animals for spending money. I don't recall there being a place in the rules for it, but those militia troops can mount two to a horse for battlefield manuevering. The shouldn't shoot from horseback, but being able to change positions of what is basically your artillery on very short notice is a good thing.

Before you get involved in city fighting, consider investing in some 'spec ops' equipment for some of your best archers. Fighting on the ground is not the best place, and if they can just ascend the wall to get to a roof... I had stats for a suit that gave the user Spider Climb. But they've vanished.

Yahzi
2008-09-18, 09:07 PM
How about the Unsullied, from A Song of Ice and Fire?

An army of eunuchs raised from childhood to be loyal, obedient soldiers (they don't even have their own names - they draw them out of a hat every morning). Not the strongest, with low initiative, but they always make their morale checks.

Rion
2008-09-19, 12:52 AM
The problem with the Unsullied and the Janissary system is that it takes a lot of time before they start working. If he has a civil war to the east and the hobgoblins are building up to the west (which it seems to me like they do), then I don't think he has that kind of time.

Kizara
2008-09-19, 01:33 AM
The problem with the Unsullied and the Janissary system is that it takes a lot of time before they start working. If he has a civil war to the east and the hobgoblins are building up to the west (which it seems to me like they do), then I don't think he has that kind of time.

Thank you.

Nonetheless, it would be interesting for concepts for another campaign in the future.


Triaxx: The Wisps are in a swamp to the south, south-east (not very far). Not the forest where the goblins and (much further away) elves are.

Triaxx
2008-09-19, 07:37 AM
*skims* Oh. Sorry. It's a bit hard to visualize without a map to work off. I have to do it from memory and that's not... reliable...

What was I saying? :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, getting through the Wisps is probably a matter of invisibility. *shrug*

Back to the army: The suggestion above mine is a good one, professional soldiers with an archer militia is a very good combination. The traditional tactic was to put as many arrows in the air as possible to hit as many enemies as possible. A good, though not particularly historically accurate example is the scene from Braveheart. Those good archers you have ar probably more useful.

pendell
2008-09-19, 07:57 AM
2 comments:

1) IRL I do *not* like the Byzantine system because what you're essentially doing is allowing people to buy their way out of conscription. Rich people contribute a fee to equip soldiers, poor people fight. Which is to say, if you're rich enough you can buy your way out of the draft. It may work in a role playing game, IRL the soldiers generated by such a system tend to not be very invested in dying for rich people, and run at the first opportunity.

2) I don't know if your DM is considering this, but a big expense in real life mounted troops is keeping them supplied with fodder. Horses, mules, etc. need a tremendous amount of hay, grass etc. So that's the downside of having a lot of mounted troops; it's hard to maintain the army for any length of time. One reason why so many armies in the world are primarily infantry, once you get away from those wide rolling steppes of Central Asia.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-19, 08:11 AM
We don't generally go into that level of detail, as its alot to keep track of as it is.

The way the leadership feat works (as I read it) is that these people choose to follow you for free and join your noble cause.

Kinda like crusaders that would join up out of religious obligation and forage for themselves as they undertook their pilgrimage.

I'm not sure how they'd forage when stationed anywhere. If you're in enemy or non-ally territory (like crusaders were, generally), it's easy: they can take everything they need - or just want - without regard to what it does to the locals. But hundreds of troops trying to feed themselves by foraging around a castle or town is not only going to run out of game and berries really fast, but also hurt the locals who used to feed themselves doing that.

If you paid them, they'd be able to buy their own food (well, assuming there's something like 10-20 times their number of people around; ~200 soldiers trying to buy food from a town of 500 would be out of luck fairly fast), but that'd probably end up being more money than just arranging food for them would cost.

If it's not a concern, that's cool - and fortunate for you. I'd just usually expect games where you keep track of the exact number and composition of troops to also take into account things like feeding them.


1) IRL I do *not* like the Byzantine system because what you're essentially doing is allowing people to buy their way out of conscription. Rich people contribute a fee to equip soldiers, poor people fight. Which is to say, if you're rich enough you can buy your way out of the draft. It may work in a role playing game, IRL the soldiers generated by such a system tend to not be very invested in dying for rich people, and run at the first opportunity.

That depends on your indoctrination. Without naming any names (since that'd get us into board-rules-breaking territory), there are professional soldiers in the world right now who do exactly that - fight for rich people, and get screwed when they return home - but who are so solidly indoctrinated they want to do it.

Fantasy medieval worlds tend to have even stronger religious systems (especially when the deities - or the results of worship, anyway - are empirically observable), which makes for even easier indoctrination. If Pelor wants you to fight for your leader and your priest tells you you'll get a place in [whatever plane Pelor lords over again] when you die, your morale is likely to be above "fair."

Rion
2008-09-19, 10:34 AM
1) IRL I do *not* like the Byzantine system because what you're essentially doing is allowing people to buy their way out of conscription. Rich people contribute a fee to equip soldiers, poor people fight. Which is to say, if you're rich enough you can buy your way out of the draft. It may work in a role playing game, IRL the soldiers generated by such a system tend to not be very invested in dying for rich people, and run at the first opportunity.
Except we are not talking about rich people, we are talking about farmers. To put it differently, in the middle ages every peasant had to own some equipment, padded cloth, spears, axes and shields, that stuff. In the Byzantine system you are removing the requirement for peasants to own equipment, instead the money each of them would have been used on equipment is used for the equipment of the last one. So it could be three peasants supplying an archer or a spearmen (who is also a peasant), but it could also be three merchants supplying a fourth merchant, who is then a heavy cavalryman in plate armour.

charl
2008-09-19, 12:34 PM
I'd like to suggest looking at training attack dogs. Pretty cheap and an effective way to distract enemy troops.

You could also take inspiration from the Romans: take a mass of large pigs or boars, pour oil over them and turn them on fire. Then pray that they run towards your enemies and not you.