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Occasional Sage
2008-09-10, 05:04 PM
What are the chances of the Yogo curse being passed to the child, assuming that one parent carries it and the other does not? I know that the curse is supposed to follow all decendants of (Isawa) Yogo, but I don't know how that is determined and can't find my Scorpion book. The Yogo always marry outside the Clan, but does a non-Yogo, non-Isawa father hinder the curse?

Thanks in advance!

Kizara
2008-09-10, 05:16 PM
I'm sorry, but what the heck system are you talking about?

It's generally a good idea to specify these things.

Shosuro Ishii
2008-09-10, 05:21 PM
Neither Secrets of the Scorpion or 3ed players Handbook indicate that there is any way to dodge the Yogo curse (one of your parents is a Yogo, you've got it), although Masters of Court makes it a purchasable disadvantade (that anyone can take imlpying that your parents do have some effect on it) and says that it appears 'most frequently' in the Yogo Bloodline, not always.

Canonically, it hasn't mattered much either way, and I can't think of a single case of a non-Yogo suffering from it.

Shosuro Ishii
2008-09-10, 05:22 PM
I'm sorry, but what the heck system are you talking about?

It's generally a good idea to specify these things.

Legend of the Five Rings, one of the two best RPG systems ever.

Occasional Sage
2008-09-10, 05:26 PM
Neither Secrets of the Scorpion or 3ed players Handbook indicate that there is any way to dodge the Yogo curse (one of your parents is a Yogo, you've got it), although Masters of Court makes it a purchasable disadvantade (that anyone can take imlpying that your parents do have some effect on it) and says that it appears 'most frequently' in the Yogo Bloodline, not always.

Canonically, it hasn't mattered much either way, and I can't think of a single case of a non-Yogo suffering from it.

Well, the Isawa see it crop up occasionally, but that's rare.

No dodging getting it, huh? That's... INteresting. Hmmm...

Slight aside: why, then, isn't the Yogo family the most inbred thing ever? Marrying anybody else just lets the curse travel to other families and hide!

Shosuro Ishii
2008-09-10, 05:31 PM
Slight aside: why, then, isn't the Yogo family the most inbred thing ever? Marrying anybody else just lets the curse travel to other families and hide!

A few reasons:

1)The yogo family itself is made up of 100,000s of thousands of people in the Samurai caste alone, plus any lower status people that happen to be dragged into marry them. While the scorpion won't send Shosuro Bob to marry Yogo Alice, they will send random 1.0 status non-samurai caste person to marry her.

2)They will often take political hostages and use them for this purpose. The scorpion don't care about the crane/Lion children they've 'traded for'.

3) Inbreeding is somewhat common place in Rokugan, and we just prefer not to talk about it.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-10, 05:35 PM
I thought you were talking about this... (http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/732/Yogho+Yogho.html)

Occasional Sage
2008-09-10, 05:42 PM
A few reasons:

1)The yogo family itself is made up of 100,000s of thousands of people in the Samurai caste alone, plus any lower status people that happen to be dragged into marry them. While the scorpion won't send Shosuro Bob to marry Yogo Alice, they will send random 1.0 status non-samurai caste person to marry her.

2)They will often take political hostages and use them for this purpose. The scorpion don't care about the crane/Lion children they've 'traded for'.

3) Inbreeding is somewhat common place in Rokugan, and we just prefer not to talk about it.

Well.

1) Samurai don't marry heimin. But in the vast majority of Rokugani marriages the lower-Glory spouse joins the other's family and clan; any Yogo marrying a higher-Glory spouse would bring the Curse into the new family (Akodo, Shiba, Mirumoto, et cetera). The Scorpion are servants of the Empire; why hurt it by spreading the Curse where it isn't recognized in a couple generations.

2) Sorry, I'm missing your point. How do hostages have a sizable impact on marriage and the spread of the YC?

3) Sure, but the Yogo ought to be nothing BUT inbred.

Shosuro Ishii
2008-09-10, 05:48 PM
Well.

1) Samurai don't marry heimin. But in the vast majority of Rokugani marriages the lower-Glory spouse joins the other's family and clan; any Yogo marrying a higher-Glory spouse would bring the Curse into the new family (Akodo, Shiba, Mirumoto, et cetera). The Scorpion are servants of the Empire; why hurt it by spreading the Curse where it isn't recognized in a couple generations.

2) Sorry, I'm missing your point. How do hostages have a sizable impact on marriage and the spread of the YC?

3) Sure, but the Yogo ought to be nothing BUT inbred.

1) It was my impression that under the grant of their lord, people who were not of the Samurai caste (the budoka and Bushi in the army who make up a majority of clan's population) as well as the skilled non-Samurai among the general population could marry into the samurai caste. I could be wrong about this however.

2) I was just proposing another situation that would give more people for the Yogo to marry to without spreading the curse. While we don't see many important hostages (Sozen being the only current one I can think of), it's implied that every clan has a sizeable amount of hostages from various clans.

3) Really, it boils down to something that is ignored for the sake of drama. Unless you take the eplipsy disadvantage, there is virtually no penalty from the thousand years of inbreeding that the crane and imperial families have dealt with. It's the same with the Yogo curse. If you think too hard about it, it stops being cool.

Occasional Sage
2008-09-10, 06:04 PM
1) It was my impression that under the grant of their lord, people who were not of the Samurai caste (the budoka and Bushi in the army who make up a majority of clan's population) as well as the skilled non-Samurai among the general population could marry into the samurai caste. I could be wrong about this however.

2) I was just proposing another situation that would give more people for the Yogo to marry to without spreading the curse. While we don't see many important hostages (Sozen being the only current one I can think of), it's implied that every clan has a sizeable amount of hostages from various clans.

3) Really, it boils down to something that is ignored for the sake of drama. Unless you take the eplipsy disadvantage, there is virtually no penalty from the thousand years of inbreeding that the crane and imperial families have dealt with. It's the same with the Yogo curse. If you think too hard about it, it stops being cool.

Permission to cross castes in marriage is so rare that it isn't really a factor. See 3e page 34 (which points out a mistake on my part: wives tend to join the family of the husband). It never outright says so, but it refers only to samurai unions with *no* mention of heimin. Generally it's a matter of face for the family; it's shameful to marry a commoner, something you do only if you have no other choice.

By "bushi" I think you're meaning ashigaru, who are peasant warriors (often conscripted farmers and merchants, sometimes from families which are traditionally warriors in service to one of the Clans). A bushi is a member of the Samurai caste who fights for the Clan. They are sometimes raised to samurai status, but very rarely and in very special circumstances. This is where many of the vassal families come from.

Ishii, do you have the old 1 or 2e Way of the Scorpion? I *think* the Curse is discussed in detail there, but I think I loaned out my Scorpion books and don't know to whom.

ETA:


The general population of samurai in Rokugan runs about two million. Given those numbers, the size of the general armies of each of the Clans can be estimated as follows:
Crab: 300,000
Crane: 150,000
Dragon: 200,000
Lion: 500,000
Phoenix: 100,000
Scorpion: 200,000
Unicorn: 270,000
Minor Clans and Ronin: 200,000 (combined)


Granted that's a 1e sourcebook, but populations don't change HUGELY over time. I'd buy hundreds of thousands of residents in Yogo lands, but not hundreds of thousands of Yogo and Yogo vassals.

Shosuro Ishii
2008-09-10, 06:17 PM
Permission to cross castes in marriage is so rare that it isn't really a factor. See 3e page 34 (which points out a mistake on my part: wives tend to join the family of the husband). It never outright says so, but it refers only to samurai unions with *no* mention of heimin. Generally it's a matter of face for the family; it's shameful to marry a commoner, something you do only if you have no other choice.

By "bushi" I think you're meaning ashigaru, who are peasant warriors (often conscripted farmers and merchants, sometimes from families which are traditionally warriors in service to one of the Clans). A bushi is a member of the Samurai caste who fights for the Clan. They are sometimes raised to samurai status, but very rarely and in very special circumstances. This is where many of the vassal families come from.

Ishii, do you have the old 1 or 2e Way of the Scorpion? I *think* the Curse is discussed in detail there, but I think I loaned out my Scorpion books and don't know to whom.

I'm looking at second edition WoTS (which I only bought for the school of Bitter Lies, which is awesome). In all honesty, the only RPG I'veactually done is a few mods at Gencon and the Politics larp (which I reccomend to everyone who likes Storytelling games), so my knowledge on the specifics is fairly fuzzy. I mainly play the CCG so my knowledge of the story is the weekly fiction plus things I research (like specific scorpion history) because it interests me.

By Bushi I meant the conscripted soliders who were considered people (non-eta) but weren't formally considered Samurai.

That being said, I was under the impression that if the wife had higher status, or was a Moshi/Utaku of the same status, the husband took their name. So, if status 6.7 Hiruma Jen married 3.4 status Matsu Bill for whatever reason, Bill would become a Hiruma.

Occasional Sage
2008-09-10, 06:25 PM
That being said, I was under the impression that if the wife had higher status, or was a Moshi/Utaku of the same status, the husband took their name. So, if status 6.7 Hiruma Jen married 3.4 status Matsu Bill for whatever reason, Bill would become a Hiruma.

Yeah, so was I. 3e from AEG contradicts us, though. I think I'll stick with our understanding though, it's more fun.

Is there a Scorpion school that isn't great?

Thurbane
2008-09-10, 09:30 PM
The curse of Yogo? Is that when it goes off before the expiry date?

http://www.howaru.com/cms/resources/image/4687a350814cfe43/yogo.jpg

Graymayre
2008-09-10, 09:48 PM
ah, that is truelly a curse one should wish not to have.

Shosuro Ishii
2008-09-10, 10:09 PM
Is there a Scorpion school that isn't great?

Sadly Shosuro Actor (my favorite thematic school ever) is really weak in comparison to either the Bayushi Courtier or the Bayushi Bushi depending on what you want to do. Their school bonusees only help with acting, which doesn't matter until you hit rank 3 and get a second persona.

I did get a 57 perception/Acting to identify the theme of play at Rank 1 though. Which is awesome:smallsigh:

mabriss lethe
2008-09-10, 10:41 PM
I don;t remember much about it, it's been ages since I've cracked open an L5R book. (this is all stuff I remember from 1 and 2E so it could be outdated, retconned, etc.) Something like 1 in 10 non Yogo-scorpion carry the curse due to intermarriage within the clan and sometimes it flows in the Asako (not the Isawa iirc. Yogo was Asako's first husband and their son carried it.)

The Yogo do marry into other clans and vice versa just as frequently as any other family in rokugan. The chances of it directly resulting in danger to the empire is pretty slim. The reason is simple. The Yogo Curse states that you'll betray that which you love most. Very few even among the samurai love the Empire more than anything else in the world. The betrayal doesn't have to be a world shattering event. Usually, it's something comparably mundane. Sure, it has the potential to wreak havoc, but not nearly as much as many more mundane threats.

And yes, the non-samurai professional soldier is the Ashigaru, which is a part of the Heimin[sic?] class, "half-people." There is a subclass of the Samurai, the Ji-Samurai who make up the rank and file of the vassal families below the ruling houses within the clans. Those might make for marketable spouses for minor members of the Yogo.