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View Full Version : Serenity: Yea or Nay? (Also: RP groups in Oxfordshire, UK)



Headless_Ninja
2008-09-11, 02:29 PM
So, I'm fairly inexperienced with this whole roleplaying lark. I love playing D&D and CoC, but aside from that, I have next to no experience (especially seeing as our CoC Keeper has moved and our D&D sessions have a frequency of ooh, about one in six months). So I was looking for a new game to play, and I'm a big fan of Firefly and wondered if the Serenity system was worth a shot. How good is it? How true to the setting is it? Would it be easier to use a different system in the same setting if I just wanted a Serenity-based RP? How easy would it be to get to grips with for a first-time RP (ie me)? And finally, are there any Serenity (or for that matter, any other game - I'm pretty starved of RPGs!) in Oxfordshire, UK?

Kurald Galain
2008-09-11, 03:26 PM
While it's certainly true to the setting, I found the system rather clumsy. To wit, your skill value for anything is a dice type; that means that for any skill check, you'd have to look whether you have to roll a d4 or a d8 or something else. This is, well, unnecessary. Furthermore, it means that target values (DCs) tend to be wonky - for instance, a target of 5 means it's impossible on 1d4 or 1d2, and still pretty darn hard on 1d10.

Tengu_temp
2008-09-11, 03:40 PM
It doesn't have exploding dice?

Tam_OConnor
2008-09-11, 03:47 PM
On the other hand, I rather like the mechanics of 'roll skill, add relevant ability' (not always the same ability). So, in say, Piloting: Agility for most rolls, Strength when you're trying to pull out of a stall, etc. Then again, I use Serenity for my rules-light Star Wars campaign and d20 for everything else.

Of note is that if the PCs work at it, they can have incredible skill bonuses as novices, and still be tolerable in other fields. I would've liked to see something like the skill cap in d20.

But to answer you're other questions:
1) Yes, I think it's a good (rules-light) system.

2) It's so accurate at depicting Serenity that my Star Wars campaign seems positively Firefly-esque.

3) I suppose you could use another system to emulate Firefly. I don't have any experience with any other space RPGs besides Star Wars d20, d20 Future and Alternity, so I couldn't really speak as to their suitability. However, the Serenity ruleset requires one and only one book.

4) Again, I find that RP-ing is easier to pick up on than mechanics, so relative novices shouldn't be a problem.

5) Well, speaking from Lincoln... nevermind, I'm in the States. Good luck finding fellow gamers. Have you tried converting Dr. Who-ers? (Whovians?)

Edit: oh, thanks for reminding me, Tengu. The rules for decompression, should damage be required, have the GM pick up every die on the table and roll them as lethal damage.
Also, when making characters, it's important to note that Kaylee is not a PC; she's a lovable NPC.

shadow_archmagi
2008-09-11, 04:03 PM
Come to think of it, arn't Jane and Zoe and Wash the only PCs?

Mal would have to be a really, really, really brilliant PC. It'd never happen. No real person could ever make a fake person that charismatic, witty, intelligent, and violent. He's far more likely to be the world's most lovable DMPC, where the DM puts hours and hours crafting every line of dialogue, and the players know he'll steal the show, not through DM-fiat, but because the DM thought about every outcome for hours. And the players love him for it.

nightwyrm
2008-09-11, 07:35 PM
What's Simon and River?

Curmudgeon
2008-09-11, 08:10 PM
While it's certainly true to the setting, I found the system rather clumsy. To wit, your skill value for anything is a dice type; that means that for any skill check, you'd have to look whether you have to roll a d4 or a d8 or something else. This is, well, unnecessary. As opposed to having to look up your modifier for each particular skill check to see what you need to add? The work involved isn't appreciably different.

Furthermore, it means that target values (DCs) tend to be wonky - for instance, a target of 5 means it's impossible on 1d4 or 1d2, and still pretty darn hard on 1d10.Well, no. Unlike core D&D where you really do have impossibly high skill DCs, Serenity has Action Points that you can spend so you achieve targets even when the maximum rolls are insufficient. (And yes, the Eberron setting has something similar, but that's not relevant to most D&D games.)

Thrud
2008-09-11, 08:11 PM
What's Simon and River?

The Cleric and the Mage?

:smallbiggrin:

Curmudgeon
2008-09-11, 08:14 PM
Come to think of it, arn't Jane and Zoe and Wash the only PCs?

Mal would have to be a really, really, really brilliant PC. It'd never happen. It did happen, right from the beginning. The rules include character sheets for all 9 series regulars -- though the game designers admit that the River Tam on the sheet is underpowered compared to the character in the series and movie.

shadow_archmagi
2008-09-11, 08:49 PM
The Cleric and the Mage?

:smallbiggrin:

Expert and Minmaxed Monk. Flaw: Insanity and Vow of Nonsensical earn you a LOT of bonuses.

Thrud
2008-09-11, 09:02 PM
Expert and Minmaxed Monk. Flaw: Insanity and Vow of Nonsensical earn you a LOT of bonuses.

O.K. fine, not the Mage, but she IS a psionic. She can't 'kill people with her mind' if she is a Monk.

(Heh, I love that scene.)

Ascension
2008-09-11, 09:47 PM
O.K. fine, not the Mage, but she IS a psionic. She can't 'kill people with her mind' if she is a Monk.

(Heh, I love that scene.)

Psychic Warrior.

With a belt of the monk and some quality time with the sparring dummy.

And maybe some reflavored levels of Drunken Master (Insane Master?).

The_Werebear
2008-09-11, 10:18 PM
Of note is that if the PCs work at it, they can have incredible skill bonuses as novices, and still be tolerable in other fields. I would've liked to see something like the skill cap in d20.


Ah, that's just because our pilot has cranked his standard piloting role to something like 1d12+1d12+1d4.

Anyway, I fully recommend the system. The rules are very simple and easy to pick up and apply as you wish, and the book itself is teeming with setting and fluff.

Tam_OConnor
2008-09-12, 01:23 AM
Werebear: I'm sorry, what was that, Mr. Grenadier and Heavy Weapons expert? Don't make me set more Korribani crystal spiders on you... And it helps that the TIE/D he's flying has d12+d2 Agility.

Mal: either PC or brilliant beyond awesome beyond stupendous DMPC. But I lean towards PC.
Zoe: PC, though on the laconic side
Jayne: World, meet powergamer. Powergamer, give 'em a speech.
Simon: He's involved in enough adventures that he could just be a mostly non-combat PC (possible in Serenity).
Inara: Like Simon, her PC/NPC status is debatable. I'd say she's a PC whose player isn't always there, but dominates when she is. Otherwise, the DM runs her.
Book: Either a PC who likes playing the mysterious type, or a subtle DMPC.
Kaylee: loveable NPC. She just doesn't do enough to be a PC.
Wash: Probably an NPC. In War Stories, when Mal's captive, the DM hands Mal's player Wash's character sheet.
River: NPC (walking plot hook). At least in the series; in the movie she's lucid enough to be a player.

Totally Guy
2008-09-12, 01:24 AM
I played in a campaign as evil pilot Jasper and it was good. My character got off to a slow start, we never had to do any crazy flying and my guy didn't have a lot of mechanical advantages, his skills never came up, gambling, hacking and piloting. After the first few sessions I took a flaw called "things don't go smooth" and from then on I volunteered a plan, to go wrong, at every opportunity. We had such fun with that one.

I didn't start roleplaying until I attended a meetup on the friendly banter board. Looks like the next one will be in the basingstoke area about new year time.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-12, 03:41 AM
As opposed to having to look up your modifier for each particular skill check to see what you need to add? The work involved isn't appreciably different.

Yes it is. In both cases you have to look up the number, but in this case you also have to look up the dice. It's similar to those silly step dice in alternity, in that it noticeably slows down gameplay (esp. in action scenes) when players wonder where the d12 went, then roll a d10 by accident, etc.

Yes, I'm exaggerating that for dramatic effect. But I find the mechanic of "the kind of die you roll depends on your skill ranks, or on the situation" to be clunky. It's far more elegant to say "you always roll 3d6", for instance.

The idea that you roll "stat + skill" but the stat varies among tasks is nice in theory (White Wolf also uses it) but tends to not happen all that often in practice, because many skills really do have one obvious stat. Otherwise you end up with silly rolls like dexterity + occult. Or, for that matter, strength + piloting.


though the game designers admit that the River Tam on the sheet is underpowered compared to the character in the series and movie.
Specifically, to what she does around the end of the movie :smalltongue: Looking at it from that perspective, River is played by the DM's gf.

BobVosh
2008-09-12, 05:04 AM
System is simple, quick, and fairly good for the world. I would argue that dragonstar is possible, but I would also say serenity is better for it.

As for skill caps...I hate skill caps and approve of a system where they cap it by point by rather than "3+char level."

In one serenity game I made one of my favorite characters yet, a mudder who has "hero worship: Jayne." It was hilarious picking up wanted posters for Jayne to hang on my wall until it was a creepy teenage-girl like room full of propaganda for Jayne.

shadow_archmagi
2008-09-12, 05:35 AM
Werebear: I'm sorry, what was that, Mr. Grenadier and Heavy Weapons expert? Don't make me set more Korribani crystal spiders on you... And it helps that the TIE/D he's flying has d12+d2 Agility.

Mal: either PC or brilliant beyond awesome beyond stupendous DMPC. But I lean towards PC.
Zoe: PC, though on the laconic side
Jayne: World, meet powergamer. Powergamer, give 'em a speech.
Simon: He's involved in enough adventures that he could just be a mostly non-combat PC (possible in Serenity).
Inara: Like Simon, her PC/NPC status is debatable. I'd say she's a PC whose player isn't always there, but dominates when she is. Otherwise, the DM runs her.
Book: Either a PC who likes playing the mysterious type, or a subtle DMPC.
Kaylee: loveable NPC. She just doesn't do enough to be a PC.
Wash: Probably an NPC. In War Stories, when Mal's captive, the DM hands Mal's player Wash's character sheet.
River: NPC (walking plot hook). At least in the series; in the movie she's lucid enough to be a player.


Oh god, I can see it now.

"Hmm. You know, Sam isn't here today and she never wrote a backstory..."
"What are you suggesting, DM?"
"I think Inara is going to be a 'companion'"

-later-
"You did WHAT with my character!?"

potatocubed
2008-09-12, 07:27 AM
Utterly irrelevant to Firefly/Serenity but relevant to your interests, I know the Oxford University roleplaying club is open to people who aren't students there. They reconvene in October. Email some (or more) of the people mentioned on this site (http://users.ox.ac.uk/~rpgsoc/) for more info.

Curmudgeon
2008-09-12, 08:34 AM
Yes it is. In both cases you have to look up the number, but in this case you also have to look up the dice.
I think you're confused.

In D&D you need to look up your skill modifier (which is a number: ranks + ability modifier + bonuses), grab a d20, roll, and add them together.

In Serenity you need to look up your skill number (which is the dice you roll), grab those dice, roll, and add them together. There's no static number to look up.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-12, 08:55 AM
I think you're confused.
No, I'm not. You're just missing the point (or ignoring it, as the case may be).

Hung Lo
2008-09-12, 09:06 AM
Other than the edges and flaws (or whatever they call them in Serenity) - there is nothing particularly distinctive that you couldn't do in D20 Modern.

And there are some advantages to it - for instance, all pistols in Serenity are usually lumped together in a broad, bland Pistol category - where you could use more detail transferring D20 Modern guns to the 'verse.

Psionics could be fudged around, as they don't exactly translate. There are even some starship rules in the D20 Future section, but they seem clunky and complicated, so you might work around these, too.

Mal might be a mix of Tough, Wise and Charismatic Hero levels, for instance.

Firefly is, essentially, ordinary folk trying to make a living in a not-so-friendly 'verse. Guns are frequently involved. Not so hard to game - the setting and atmosphere is the real magic behind it.

Dervag
2008-09-12, 09:15 AM
Yes it is. In both cases you have to look up the number, but in this case you also have to look up the dice. It's similar to those silly step dice in alternity, in that it noticeably slows down gameplay (esp. in action scenes) when players wonder where the d12 went, then roll a d10 by accident, etc.You get used to the step dice. Well, OK, I get used to the step dice.

Hmm... I wonder if Alternity would be improved if, instead of step dice, there were a constant dice pool? As in, for each step of bonus or penalty you roll a d4, or a d3? Then there'd be no need to look up the dice.



I think you're confused.

In D&D you need to look up your skill modifier (which is a number: ranks + ability modifier + bonuses), grab a d20, roll, and add them together.

In Serenity you need to look up your skill number (which is the dice you roll), grab those dice, roll, and add them together. There's no static number to look up.Grabbing several dice is typically more annoying than grabbing one die.

Also, don't you have to look up a number to compare your combined die roll to? I mean, I've just rolled an 8 and a 3. Is an 11 enough to pull my wounded comrade to safety before the blast door closes? I need to know.

I mean, I like the system in concept; it reminds me of Alternity, which I really did enjoy and would still enjoy today if I could get together a play group. But I freely admit there was a conceptual flaw in Alternity's basic dice mechanic, and I think the same goes for the Firefly system. Which doesn't make it bad- you can have a terrible game welded to a superb dice mechanic and vice versa.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-12, 09:40 AM
You get used to the step dice. Well, OK, I get used to the step dice.
Well, so do I, but I play with a lot of casual gamers who tend not to get used to such things. Another thing that people kept getting confused over was 2E's "sometimes high is good and sometimes low is good" mechanic.

However, I don't see step dice really adding anything to the game, and they do play havoc with a DM's sense of statistics. It's a violation of the KISS principle: don't add mechanics that aren't necessary. A constant dice pool would be better, though (at present, the first step adds +2.5 to your expected value, the second step adds +1).

Curmudgeon
2008-09-12, 10:51 AM
I think you're confused.

No, I'm not. You're just missing the point (or ignoring it, as the case may be). I don't get your point at all.

In both cases you have to look up the number, but in this case you also have to look up the dice. There's a skill modifier number to look up in D&D to add to your roll. What number do you have to look up in Serenity?

Headless_Ninja
2008-09-12, 10:56 AM
Wow, thanks for the feedback. If I can bully some friends into playing, I'll get this! Also, vis-a-vis the rules debate: what have I begun?

Tam_OConnor
2008-09-12, 02:45 PM
Shhh! Stay quiet! If we're lucky, they won't notice us.

Oh, one last thing to note: Any non-humanoids are hard to model with this system. Case in point: crystal spiders of Korriban. But if you're playing in the 'Verse, and they don't pick fights with pit bulls, this really isn't an issue.

Headless_Ninja
2008-09-12, 03:48 PM
Yeah, wasn't expecting much in the way of nonhumans... But some coverage for terrestrial animals would be nice.

shadow_archmagi
2008-09-13, 09:35 AM
Just went and got the book, it looks nice.

Just to clarify though;

If I have 14 attribute points left, does that mean I can get a d12 attribute and have two to spare, or does it mean I pay 6 to get a d6 and then 8 to get a d8, for a d8 attribute and no spare?

Altair_the_Vexed
2008-09-13, 01:27 PM
I have no comment to make about Serenity / Firefly - but in nearby Northamptonshire (up the A361 from Banbury) is a games club that I attend regularly: see my sig for link.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-09-13, 03:58 PM
I'm having memory issues at the moment, but I do recall that the Serenity system is very light, has unmatched flavor, and is quite true to the source material.

Also, when you have builds such as prostitute doctor and midget gunman among one's list of numerically sound character options... it really lets you know the system doesn't handicap your imagination much. :smallbiggrin:

potatocubed
2008-09-14, 09:08 AM
Also, when you have builds such as prostitute doctor and midget gunman among one's list of numerically sound character options... it really lets you know the system doesn't handicap your imagination much. :smallbiggrin:

Hot damn. I don't care if they're numerically sound or not, you've just given me my next two PCs. :smallbiggrin:

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-09-14, 10:54 AM
Hot damn. I don't care if they're numerically sound or not, you've just given me my next two PCs. :smallbiggrin:

I expect updates on how well they go over with your gaming group. Mine had a kick out of the doc one.

Dervag
2008-09-14, 12:16 PM
However, I don't see step dice really adding anything to the game, and they do play havoc with a DM's sense of statistics. It's a violation of the KISS principle: don't add mechanics that aren't necessary. A constant dice pool would be better, though (at present, the first step adds +2.5 to your expected value, the second step adds +1).Of course, one of the intentional features of the system was that doing anything with a step penalty of +5 or more was almost impossible unless you got really lucky. As opposed to being just a little more difficult than something with a step penalty of +4. I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

You're definitely right that the way the expected modifiers scale across the -4 to +4 range was out of whack.

shadow_archmagi
2008-09-14, 12:34 PM
Also, when you have builds such as prostitute doctor and midget gunman among one's list of numerically sound character options... it really lets you know the system doesn't handicap your imagination much. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, for best results, one should tack on ugly and fat while you're at it.

And make him a leader.

my_evil_twin
2008-09-14, 02:09 PM
I played Serenity a bit, and encountered a problem that seemed to me to be pretty intrinsic to the game. Maybe more experienced players got around it ok. It's just that the game seems to encourage specialization of roles (pilot, medic, engineer, "public relations") but all of those people don't have anything to do all the time. It's only after a session or two that you start to remember all the episodes where Simon and River just had to cool their heels in their room, or Wash just got left in the cockpit, while the people with guns had all the fun.

Adlan
2008-09-14, 04:26 PM
The way around that is the Dm's job. Give them role's or a side mission, or a puzzle they have to do or solve, or make them tag along.

Or send them out for snacks, or to get the next round in.


The Serenity system is my favourite system to play in real life, Rule's lite, perfect for my DMing style, quite intuitive, and easy to teach. If you want detail and ubber acurracy, this isn't it. But this is a fun game, in which roleplaying a story telling really comes to the fore.



Oh, and Kaylee is definately a PC. She's the DM's younger sister, annoying her brother with talking about sex, but cheerful and loved by all, and slightly mary sue, because he dosn't want her to be upset.

Totally Guy
2008-09-14, 04:57 PM
It's only after a session or two that you start to remember all the episodes where Simon and River just had to cool their heels in their room, or Wash just got left in the cockpit, while the people with guns had all the fun.

Yeah, I fell into that hole. Pilot gambler hacker stuck on a barren icy planet with the ship crashed and out of fuel.

But as I said before, I picked up "things don't go smooth" and volunteered a plan for every situation, the the DM would find some way for it to fail. Ok, it wasn't good for the party but it was brilliant for the narrative.

And there was a time I rigged the crew election for new captain (after the old one died... that time I proposed a gun control policy aboard the ship.. never goes smooth...) Then they caught me cheating. I had to vote for Cucumber our Jolly Midget Gunner just because I knew he'd let my guy get away with causing trouble. Then when they counted votes it was unanimous and they all thought "aww, he really does care about someone other than himself". I enjoyed that character in spite of his mechanical uselessness. I always ha a ton of plot points as I used my drawbacks so many times. The secret to enjoying the game was when we discovered the drawbacks were better than the assets.

Tam_OConnor
2008-09-14, 08:10 PM
It's not that Kaylee isn't a good character. Either she's an NPC, or she's a PC who's content not to actually not do anything. Think about how many mechanical problems Serenity had that she couldn't fix. i.e 'I'm sorry, you can't fix this problem, no matter how good you are, because that mechanical problem is the adventure this week.'

shadow_archmagi
2008-09-15, 05:59 AM
It's not that Kaylee isn't a good character. Either she's an NPC, or she's a PC who's content not to actually not do anything. Think about how many mechanical problems Serenity had that she couldn't fix. i.e 'I'm sorry, you can't fix this problem, no matter how good you are, because that mechanical problem is the adventure this week.'

Yeah. On the other hand, for all his reputation, how often does Jayne actually get to shoot somebody? Objects in Space, Episode Whose Name I Can't Remember But Involves A Ship That Got Hit By Reavers, Shindig...

The only character that always gets to do SOMETHING is mal.

SmartAlec
2008-09-15, 06:15 AM
Yeah. On the other hand, for all his reputation, how often does Jayne actually get to shoot somebody?

Are we talking about the same Jayne here? Aside from Shindig, Trash and Objects in Space, he gets to shoot, aim at or beat up at least one person per episode. And he makes up for that small deficit in War Stories and Our Mrs. Reynolds.

The episode you couldn't quite name - Bushwhacked - he fights the survivor. We don't see it, but the crew hears it.

Totally Guy
2008-09-15, 06:22 AM
The only character that always gets to do SOMETHING is mal.

That's because he has "Things don't go smooth" as a major flaw.:smallbiggrin:

Curmudgeon
2008-09-15, 12:02 PM
I played Serenity a bit, and encountered a problem that seemed to me to be pretty intrinsic to the game. Maybe more experienced players got around it ok. It's just that the game seems to encourage specialization of roles (pilot, medic, engineer, "public relations") but all of those people don't have anything to do all the time. Part of this is fixed by the GM designing scenarios for all the PCs, but part of it is intrinsic to the Serenity system design. The best way to make a good crew is to have a bunch of specialists, and cover all the bases across the crew rather than in each PC. That's because you have linear costs at character creation, and quadratic costs for later advancement.