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View Full Version : Best Ally to Defend a City [3.5]



HOVA
2008-09-11, 07:51 PM
Hello all,
I'm trying to decide the best course of action to defend a city from an oncoming horde. My question deals with picking the best "ally" I can find to do that particular job.

Background info:
We have completed the Shattered Gates of Slaughtergard and are in the midst of the Red Hand of Doom. The party consists of a Halfling Druid/Outrider, a Swordsage, an Elven Beguiler, and a Gray Elf Wizard/Divine Oracle/Loremaster (me) and we are in the Level 8-9 range. The DM is open to most things as long as they don't disrupt his game. Books are whatever we can get the DM to accept.

Situation:
We have cleared most of the opposition we have encountered. We have been to Varaath Keep, Skull Gorge Bridge, Lake Rhest, and most places in between. Most of the area (the good guys) are aware of the oncoming threat and have made for the city of Brindol. The party actually hasn't been in Brindol, but from the maps we have and what we have heard, it seems like the best place to make a stand. We are hoping they have some sort of army there and CITY WALLS for protection. We are on our way to Brindol and I've been thinking long and hard about how to hold off thousands of enemies.

Question:
I have just gotten to the wonderful 5th level wizard spells I was flipping thru the Spell Compendium the other day and spotted a beauty... Lesser Dragon Ally! Long story short... I can call a 15 HD or less dragon into service for 9 days (11 days if I cast Spell Enhancer (same book) beforehand) and offer him a metric crapton of gold to protect Brindol from the enemy. My question is WHICH dragon should I choose for this purpose. My two leading canidates are a Young Gold Dragon (MM p.84) OR a Young Adult Fang Dragon (Draconomicon p.159). I have always been a player and am still figuring out what the difference is between the different kinds of dragons, so I'm looking for someone (maybe a DM or two) with some more experience in this area.

If you could have any dragon (preferably NOT evil) of 15 HD or less to defend a city for 9-11 days, which one would you pick?

Thanks in advance!

MeklorIlavator
2008-09-11, 08:05 PM
Question: how much would you like me to metagame? I know the module, so I know what you're up against. I could suggest somethings that might be based of things that you aren't privy to. Also, how much do you know of the horde's composition? That would be helpful in any case.

HOVA
2008-09-11, 08:14 PM
Question: how much would you like me to metagame? I know the module, so I know what you're up against. I could suggest somethings that might be based of things that you aren't privy to. Also, how much do you know of the horde's composition? That would be helpful in any case.

Please do not metagame for me. We know very little of the horde's composition... other than the fact they have thousands of hobgoblins and some dragons working for them. We just found a phylactry (sp) of a bad guy who calls himself the Ghostlord (we know he's a lich).

A list of things we have fought and killed:
Green dragon @ skull gorge bridge (we also destroyed the bridge)
Black dragon/goblin ranger/4-6 big dudes (ogres maybe) @ rhest lake
Many many hobgoblin fighter-types @ various spots

I guess I'm just trying to figure out which type of dragon would be most useful for when the REST of the army does show up @ Brindol.

Please don't spoil anything for me, I'm really digging this campaign.

Thanks for the response.:smalltongue:

tyckspoon
2008-09-11, 08:49 PM
mm.. for fighting an army, ideally you want your dragon to have DR (for surviving swarms of arrows and crossbow bolts), a breath attack (for killing a lot of enemies at once, especially if it can take metabreath feats), and frightful presence (for completely wrecking battle plans just by doing a fly-over.)

The Young Gold dragon has the breath weapon. That's a point in its favor. It does not have DR or Frightful Presence; those are points against. If you happen to know Protection From Arrows, you could cast it on the dragon to take care of the DR problem.

The Young Adult Fang dragon has no breath weapon (Fang dragons do Con damage when they bite things instead). That is a point against. It does have native DR 5/magic; that is a benefit. It also has Frightful Presence, a significant benefit on a battlefield: It can debuff a massive 150-ft radius centered on its flight path. Send it out to eat a command center and every normal footsoldier it flies over on the way out will probably be running away (that is, assuming the army is composed primarily of 4 HD or lower creatures.)

Out of those two I would probably take the Fang, as the demoralizing, debuffing, and disrupting effects of Frightful Presence will probably have an overall larger effect on the battle than a breath weapon. If your DM allows, the ideal choice would be one of the Planar dragons in the Draconomicon; the Rust Dragon and Howling dragon are both available in Neutral and have all three attributes at 15 HD or less. The Rust Dragon could potentially even be paid off simply by allowing it to eat the weapons and armor of the dead. Alternately, the Battle Dragon; 15 HD isn't enough to get one with Frightful Presence, but it is specifically fluffed as enjoying the sort of thing you're going into, so it would probably need much less treasure to be convinced to help.

Adumbration
2008-09-12, 09:53 AM
If you can somehow slide the alignment, I would propose Young Adult White Dragon. It gets the DR, SR, Frightful presence and breathweapon. It is also the oldest dragon you can get, at least from core. I'm yet to check other books. It has no casting, but at that hd, it would be so low it didn't matter anyway.

EDIT: Another possibility is a CN Young Howling Dragon.

Keld Denar
2008-09-12, 10:18 AM
Yea, with HD being the cap, rather than other factors like age, you want to go with the least powerful dragon you can, as this gets you more bang for your HD buck. The white dragon mentioned above might be ok, but I'd be leary of it swapping sides, regardless of the spell. Something like a Brass dragon might be a good alternative. They have a cone shaped breath weapon, which has a higher likelyhood of affecting more targets.

Xenogears
2008-09-12, 10:18 AM
Not familiar with the spell but if you can use evil dragons then the Yellow Dragon from the Dragon Compendium is good. I know you said preferrably not evil but that does imply that evil is okay if you have to so I figured I'd suggest it anyways. You could get a young adult Yellow Dragon. It has a breath weapon, DR, Frightful presence, and is faster than normal dragons (250ft fly speed).

Blackfang108
2008-09-12, 01:17 PM
Battle Dragon from the Draconomicon.

Trust me.

Prometheus
2008-09-12, 02:20 PM
Not all dragons have the same relation with money and principle. Ideally, a Good dragon would defend you because it identifies with your cause, but if it doesn't feel like it knows you well enough, it probably can't be bought.

DoomedPaladin
2008-09-12, 03:15 PM
Battle Dragon (pg177 DragComp): 14d12+42 HD Juvenile, size M, AL NeutGood, spd 40/fly 150 (poor)

Str 19 Dex 10 Con 17 Int 12 Wis 13 Cha 14, BA/Grp 14/18, Attk 18, Fort 12, Ref 9 Will 10

Breath Weap 8d6(20) cone of sonic/ cone of fear gas (will save/shaken 4d6 rnds, multi exposure not cumulative, but if already shaken from another source targets frightened instead),

"Battle Fury" (Ex) 1/day (+2/+2 Barb Rage without fatigue at end),

Inspire Courage (Su) 1/day (as bard, +2 vs charm/fear, +1 attk/dmg),

Sorry 'bout that. Adult only indeed.

3/day aid, protect from evil 1/day shield other,

Immune: Sonic, AC 24, DR 5/magic, no SR, no Frightful Presence.

Rust Dragon (pg186 DragComp): 15d12+45 HD Juvenile, size L, AL LawNeut, spd 60/fly 150 (poor)/burrow 45

Str 19 Dex 10 Con 17 Int 8 Wis 11 Cha 8, BA/Grp 15/23, Attk 18, Fort 12 Ref 9 Will 9,

Breath Weap (Su) 8d4(20) line of acid/cone of rusting liquid that instantly corrodes and destroys any metal it touches, attended and magical metals may make Ref saves to avoid effect, all metals subject to effect even mithral and adamantine, even targets gold.

Metal Resistance (Ex) Dragon gains DR = age catagory +2 against weapons whose damage dealing part is metal,

Rusting Bite (Ex) Any metal object (armor, weapons, structures, golems) struck by Dragons bite attk makes a Ref save DC same as Breath Weap or fall, destroyed, to rust immediately.

Rusting Scales (Ex) Only applies to Wyrm and Great Wyrm,

AC 24, DR 5/magic (10/magic vs metal weapons), SR 18, Frightful Presence 16



I highly reccommend the Battle as an ally, the Rust as a demoraliser.

Remember though that once the DM has seen it in action he might use it on you. :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

:smallamused:

tyckspoon
2008-09-12, 03:41 PM
The Battle Dragon doesn't get Inspire Courage until the Adult age category, at 20 HD. Bards and other aura effects can be more than usually powerful for large fights, however; maybe see if you can get the DM to agree to using Planar Ally/Planar Binding to call up an Aasimar bard or something. Or a Lillend, but they're one HD over the limit for the Lesser versions of the spells.

HOVA
2008-09-12, 05:06 PM
OK, I've worked it down to two choices...

Young Howling Dragon

OR

Juvenile Rust Dragon

Both are from the Draconomicon... both have DR, SR, and Frightful Presence, same HD, similar AC, attacks, etc.

The real difference is whether I want a cone of sonic or a cone of rust.

Hmm, loot all bodies after they're bleeding from the ears OR destroy all metal, make it easier to kill the army...

Also, do you guys think I'd get much trouble out of a CN or LN dragon switching sides if he was well paid???

Could I actually pay the Rust Dragon in any metal armor/weapons the enemy has??? Would that work?

Thanks for the help everyone!

tyckspoon
2008-09-12, 05:28 PM
Hmm. Well. By default fluff/personalities:

The Howling Dragon is associated with Pandemonium, a strongly chaotic plane (of the crazy-Chaos variety; think Giant Frog, here.) It is stated to enjoy the act of attacking and eating things for its own sake; seems like a good partner for a fight. However, if it has to sit around waiting for the battle, it's probably going to be a struggle to make it sit down and behave- even the Chaotic Neutral ones will still be CHAOTIC Neutral, and there's no guarantee it will even recognize the normal treasure bargain as suggested by the summoning spell. An effective choice for a fight, but very risky if your DM likes to hang his players with their own ropes.

The Rust Dragon is normally associated with the Battlefields of Acheron. They come in Lawful Evil and Lawful Neutral. That's a good sign, since even if you wind up with a Lawful Evil one it is more likely to abide by any bargain you strike with it. Plus, the book text claims that all they really want to do is eat (I'm sure they have more complex motivations than that, but that's their reason for fighting things)- you should be able to pay it partially or completely in metals. Maybe make a delayed-payment arrangement, where it gets its pick of the corpses and materials from the battlefield and then you make up any deficit if it feels unsatisfied with that buffet.

I would go with the Rust Dragon, as making a long-term deal with anything from Pandemonium is begging to get screwed.

Yahzi
2008-09-13, 10:25 AM
I have just gotten to the wonderful 5th level wizard spells
Obviously, then, you've cast "Contact Other Planes." Which accounts for your presence here on the boards. So you can go ahead and metagame - obviously the lesser deities here have seen the future (or at least the coming horde).

:smallbiggrin:

HOVA
2008-09-13, 02:33 PM
Well, I got ahold of the DM and we are only going w/ MM dragons... no Draconomicon :smallconfused:

So I guess I'm going with a Young Gold Dragon... two cone breath weapons, decent ac and saves, no DR or frightful presence, good strength and attacks.

I'll just see if he'll let me ride him, and UMD CLW from a wand if he gets hurt :smallbiggrin:

Any other suggestions than using a Young Gold Dragon if we are just going by MM?

Keld Denar
2008-09-13, 03:15 PM
Well, I got ahold of the DM and we are only going w/ MM dragons... no Draconomicon :smallconfused:

So I guess I'm going with a Young Gold Dragon... two cone breath weapons, decent ac and saves, no DR or frightful presence, good strength and attacks.

I'll just see if he'll let me ride him, and UMD CLW from a wand if he gets hurt :smallbiggrin:

Any other suggestions than using a Young Gold Dragon if we are just going by MM?

Like I said, go with a lesser dragon than gold. This gets you an older dragon for your HD buck. Something like Brass or Bronze would be best. Copper has the line of acid, which wouldn't really be that good for taking out maximal foes with a single breath, you want something with a cone. I'm not able to access d20srd from work (grumble grumble) but one of those 2 would be better than gold, since they'd probably be older and thus have more powers for the same number of hd.

Douglas
2008-09-13, 03:35 PM
If the army you're facing is capable of any sort of massed ranged attack, DR is absolutely essential. Otherwise the sheer number of hits from the inevitable natural 20's (and probably 19's and 18's as well for some of the archers) will kill your dragon very quickly.

For offense, Frightful Presence will throw huge portions of the enemy army into panicked chaos a lot faster than any breath weapon could kill.

Sadly, both of these qualities don't come until the Young Adult age category, and in the MM only white dragons don't have more than 15 hit dice by that point.

If you think dealing with an evil dragon is an acceptable option, going with white would probably be the best option.

If not, make sure to buff your dragon with Mage Armor and Protection from Arrows at the very least before the battle. Another AC buff or two to be certain only natural 20's will hit from the rank and file would be a good idea too, and any buffs that give miss chance to foil even some of the 20's would be even better.

Grynning
2008-09-13, 03:43 PM
Both bronze and brass have the gas breath weapons as well, which can be almost as good as frightful presence for crowd control. Neither will have DR though, so they will need some buffing to survive hails of arrows and such.

I suggest a Bronze Dragon, buff it up with protection from arrows and stoneskin or whatever the hell else you want.

Keld Denar
2008-09-13, 03:46 PM
Both bronze and brass have the gas breath weapons as well, which can be almost as good as frightful presence for crowd control. Neither will have DR though, so they will need some buffing to survive hails of arrows and such.

I suggest a Bronze Dragon, buff it up with protection from arrows and stoneskin or whatever the hell else you want.

Yea, that. Also, misschances. Displacement is 4th level, if you have it. Its a short duration, but you could use it the first time your dragon goes out, and after its scattered any resistance, you'd need it less and less. The dragon doesn't actually have to be invincible, but if you can convince your foes otherwise, they'll be less likely to expend resources shooting it in the future.

Koalita
2008-09-13, 04:28 PM
From the SRD metallic dragons, not going for the gold one just forgoes 3rd caster level... and maybe endure elements. I would probably go with the gold one and cast protection from arrows. If you cannot cast protection from arrows, dont get them out... or you'll lose it almost instantly. If you can ride it and has some kind of wind wall/or other prot from arrows spell, ok... :)

HOVA
2008-09-15, 08:41 PM
Thanks for all of your help guys!

I've decided to go with a Juvenile Bronze Dragon... with Greater Mage Armor, Protection from Arrows (which I need to find a scroll of ASAP), and IF he'll let me ride him, Displacement if things get going badly.

Once again, you guys are awesome and I appreciate all the input!

:smallbiggrin:

Smittaugh
2008-09-15, 11:59 PM
I think the best ally for this is the Gnome Swordsage.:smallamused: Or a well thrown d4 to the DM's eye.

Actually, I kid. The best ally for us is the DM's dice. If there were a way to affect the entire opposing force with Unluck, hell, we could just sit back and watch them fall on their own swords.

...Is there a way to widen the effect like that?

I heart our DM's dice.

Grynning
2008-09-16, 01:09 AM
I just had a neat idea - if you want your dragon to be a bit more effective maybe - have it use Alternate Form to disguise itself and infiltrate deep into the enemy lines. You and the Beguiler could also use similar magic, invisibility, whatever to go along with it. Then, you can kill of some enemy officers with your first wave of attacks, then have it assume its true form, breath it's "run away!" gas, and then the three of you go to town to divide the enemy lines. That will cut off support to part of the bad guys front lines. Have the Outrider and the Swordsage ready to lead a counter attack and crush the isolated unit right after! YIPPY KI YAY, MOTHER-

Sorry, big battles get me all excited, and I rarely get to play in them myself...

Triaxx
2008-09-16, 04:23 AM
I'd advise a Young Blue, or a Juvenile Green. Both lawful evil, so they should abide by the agreement if you can make it sufficiently beneficial to them. Perhaps an unoccupied nesting site you've found.

Neither gets you frightful presence, but a Blue gets you Destroy Water, which can help with a war of attrition. A siege usually involves outlasting the enemy and if his wizards are busy casting Create Water to keep up morale... Unless the entire army has been dominated. Yes, it's a line weapon, but they enemies have to line up against the walls. Imagine rushing up a scaling ladder then looking up and seeing a mouth launching a bolt of lightning at you.

A green nets you a cone weapon. So while it's not nice, having a dragon plummet out of the sky and melt the commanding officers or wizards is pretty disheartening. On the other hand, letting it bluff it's way into the army then taking out the leaders might be helpful as well.

Gorbash
2008-09-16, 10:56 AM
Don't be crazy and call chromatic dragons, since you're up against Red Hand Horde, they'll 100% go over to their side, since they're all worshipers of Tiamat.

And since I've played Red Hand of Doom, going up against hordes of hobgoblins won't come into play, since Siege of Brindol is a series of mini encounters for PCs, so I'd recommend a dragon that's good in melee, ie. dragon with most hit dice that you can get, which is Gold Dragon. I myself was a wizard and I tried to use that spell, but the DM didn't let me since that spell is indeed kinda stupid (you don't actually summon a dragon, since he's not extraplanar, he just kinda comes... from where?)

Keld Denar
2008-09-16, 11:34 AM
YIPPY KI YAY, MOTHER-


My name is John McClane, and I approve this message!

Triaxx
2008-09-16, 01:10 PM
Gorbash, he didn't want to get it spoiled.

And: Oh gods, no that one again. The memories. The memories... *screams*

Gorbash
2008-09-16, 05:01 PM
I didn't say which encounters, did I?

It's meta-gaming, nevertheless.

Emperor Tippy
2008-09-16, 05:13 PM
You might want to look at Cloudkill, it's great for dealing with hordes of enemies with 6 or less HD.

bosssmiley
2008-09-17, 04:59 AM
You definitely want full-BAB characters, ideally in a prime number (for cosmological reasons). I suggest Samurai, 7 of them. You can't lose. :smallwink:

Charity
2008-09-17, 05:30 AM
You definitely want full-BAB characters, ideally in a prime number (for cosmological reasons). I suggest Samurai, 7 of them. You can't lose. :smallwink:

You could aways get two sixes worth of unwashed rogues...

Or just get a whole bunch (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065214/) of em if you want some MAD.

Saph
2008-09-17, 06:18 AM
Thanks for all of your help guys!

I've decided to go with a Juvenile Bronze Dragon... with Greater Mage Armor, Protection from Arrows (which I need to find a scroll of ASAP), and IF he'll let me ride him, Displacement if things get going badly.

Once again, you guys are awesome and I appreciate all the input!

:smallbiggrin:

Good choice on the Bronze dragon. Remember that he's a 3rd-level sorcerer, so he'll have a few spells of his own (which the DM will probably have a say in). Still, it's reasonable to suggest that he'll have Shield, which along with Greater Mage Armour will push his AC up to 33 - enough to ignore pretty much everything short of leaders or a nat. 20. Protection from Arrows will take care of the nat. 20s. Stoneskin might be worth considering too - it costs 250 gp, but you can spare the money, right?

Displacement is less effective due to the 1 round/level duration, meaning it'll last less than a minute, but it's good if you can predict when the dragon will be shot at.

- Saph

DigoDragon
2008-09-17, 08:33 AM
Tactics wise, you can do what my party did in a similiar situation and have the dragon drop vats of boiling, flamable oil onto the enemy lines from above (I suppose dropping the oil could be ruled as a free action). Then have your archers light their arrows before firing. :smallamused:

I loved that encounter...

Triaxx
2008-09-17, 10:14 AM
Consider getting your DM to let you summon something half-dragon that's no more than level 10.

A half-dragon sorceror could cause an awful lot of havok by sneaking in and using it's breath weapon on the leadership, then launching Cloudkill's. Not to mention it'll be able to protect itself from arrows.

On the other hand, see if you can get the DM to let you empower the spell and get the dragon with one or two more HD. Possibly enough for one with Fearful prescence. (Yes. I know empower doesn't work that way.)