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Thurbane
2008-09-11, 09:33 PM
Hey all, just looking for some tips and tricks on how to max out/exploit UMD to it's fullest.

In the core, there are only 2 classes that get it as a skill - Rogues and Bards, and only two feats that boost it - Magical Affinity and Skill Focus. A Rogue's Skill Mastery can be used with UMD, and it gets (some) synergy off Spellcraft and Decipher script (for scrolls).

Outside the core, I'm lead to believe that the Warlock is the UMD king.

Any other thoughts?

Kyeudo
2008-09-11, 09:53 PM
The UMD king is the Artificer, because he has to be. He makes his own toys and then goes to town with them.

Chronos
2008-09-11, 10:50 PM
A Rogue's Skill Mastery can be used with UMDSkill Mastery just means that distractions don't prevent you from taking 10. But you can't take 10 on UMD even without distractions, so Skill Mastery doesn't help.

By contrast, the Warlock's ability Deceive Item does let you take 10 on UMD, and I think Artificers get a similar ability.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-11, 11:27 PM
Warlocks get the ability at level 4, and Artificers at level 12. Both get a good amount of mileage, IMHO, out of the Heartstone of the Night Hag, an item that is sellable for 1,800 GP, so probably costs 3,600 to buy, and requires a DC25 UMD check to emulate being a Nigh Hag to use. Once you can auto that check(Warlock at level 8 with 11 ranks, +4 cha, and taking 10, or Artificer at 9 with 12 ranks, +4 Cha, an item of +5, and Skill Focus +3), you get Ethrealness at-will(9th level spell!) as well as Resistance +2 to saves and immunity to disease. Yeah, it's a good item, and completely Core. :smallbiggrin:

ZekeArgo
2008-09-11, 11:33 PM
Artificers at level 12.

Actually artificers get skill mastery for spellcraft and UMD at 13, not 12

BobVosh
2008-09-12, 12:36 AM
Hey all, just looking for some tips and tricks on how to max out/exploit UMD to it's fullest.

In the core, there are only 2 classes that get it as a skill - Rogues and Bards, and only two feats that boost it - Magical Affinity and Skill Focus. A Rogue's Skill Mastery can be used with UMD, and it gets (some) synergy off Spellcraft and Decipher script (for scrolls).

Outside the core, I'm lead to believe that the Warlock is the UMD king.

Any other thoughts?

Remember- Anything you can do, an artificer can do better! Espcially when you are talking about its baby, UMD.

sparky22
2008-09-12, 10:34 AM
I've never understood why Wizards and Sorcerers don't get UMD as a class skill. Surely they're the ones most likely to be using wands and staffs and things like that?

arguskos
2008-09-12, 10:45 AM
I've never understood why Wizards and Sorcerers don't get UMD as a class skill. Surely they're the ones most likely to be using wands and staffs and things like that?
It's because they can automatically use any wand, staff, etc of a spell on their spell list. They would only be using UMD for divine stuff, essentially, which they hardly need.

-argus

Curmudgeon
2008-09-12, 10:45 AM
Wizards and Sorcerers have full access to most arcane wands and staves as it is. Why should they know anything at all about how divine magic works?

Bayar
2008-09-12, 12:16 PM
Lets see...Marshal from Miniatures handbook gives you an aura that grants your stat bonus twice on any skill check. Choose CHA. There is a nifty feat somewhere, that lets you use a magical item with UMD without rolling a check if you previously activated it. (you get attuned to it, and it lasts until you decide to attune to a different device). Take the Illiterate trait for a +1 to UMD and a custom made tool for UMD for 50 gold (commonly known as Tobin's Guide to Common magics).

My level 1 artificier manages to get a +15 to UMD with anything and a +17 with scrolls. Star elf +5 (CHA = 20), 4 ranks, Skill focus +3, Illiterate +1, Tool +2.

sparky22
2008-09-12, 12:24 PM
It's because they can automatically use any wand, staff, etc of a spell on their spell list. They would only be using UMD for divine stuff, essentially, which they hardly need.

-argus

OK, I've missed that somewhere. Can someone point me to where it says that in the book please?

Thanks

Bayar
2008-09-12, 12:56 PM
OK, I've missed that somewhere. Can someone point me to where it says that in the book please?

Thanks

If you have that particular spell on your spell list, you can activate it freely. It says in the UMD skill description, when it tells you about scrolls and wands.

Chronos
2008-09-12, 04:26 PM
Take the Illiterate trait for a +1 to UMDEven with UMD, I don't think an illiterate character can use a scroll, can they?


OK, I've missed that somewhere. Can someone point me to where it says that in the book please?It's in the descriptions of wands, staves, and scrolls. The whole point of UMD is that it lets a rogue pretend to be a wizard (or whatever) for purposes of magic items.

Curmudgeon
2008-09-12, 05:45 PM
Even with UMD, I don't think an illiterate character can use a scroll, can they? Nope. Reading is required.
Use a Scroll

If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first.

Bayar
2008-09-13, 04:32 AM
Yes, you spend 2 skill points to become literate. It is kinda painful for a +1 to UMD, but it helps at lower levels.

It is called an optimisation trick.

Ceaon
2008-09-13, 04:49 AM
Yes, you spend 2 skill points to become literate. It is kinda painful for a +1 to UMD, but it helps at lower levels.

It is called an optimisation trick.

Yeah, that or munchkining :smallwink:

UMD is quite broken, if you take a character who has UMD as a class skill, you're good. If you spend 1 skill point per level, you have oprimized enough to become a viable asset to your party.
If you maximize your UMD by any means possible, you're probably more powerful than the rest of your party.

Bayar
2008-09-13, 04:56 AM
Yeah, that or munchkining :smallwink:

UMD is quite broken, if you take a character who has UMD as a class skill, you're good. If you spend 1 skill point per level, you have oprimized enough to become a viable asset to your party.
If you maximize your UMD by any means possible, you're probably more powerful than the rest of your party.

If you are an artificier...go to town :biggrin:

Tar Palantir
2008-09-13, 05:49 AM
The other trick is to take the feat Savvy Rogue with Skill Mastery, allowing you to take 12 on UMD checks. And note that Skill Mastery can apply to any skill, whether you can normally take 10 with it or not. It simply says pick 3+Int skills, no qualifications.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-13, 07:44 AM
I remember someone saying a while back that Wands can be used for Sneak Attacks by Rogues. That could be useful to you.

Bayar
2008-09-13, 07:51 AM
I remember someone saying a while back that Wands can be used for Sneak Attacks by Rogues. That could be useful to you.

Actually, you can sneak attack with spells in general. only that there are limitations, like...the spell requires an attack roll and a damage roll...dont remember exactly.

Curmudgeon
2008-09-13, 08:48 AM
The other trick is to take the feat Savvy Rogue with Skill Mastery, allowing you to take 12 on UMD checks. And note that Skill Mastery can apply to any skill, whether you can normally take 10 with it or not. It simply says pick 3+Int skills, no qualifications. The FAQ says otherwise:
Can a rogue with skill mastery take 10 on a Use Magic Device check?
No. The rogue’s skill mastery class feature states that “she can take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.” This only applies to skills that allow a character to take 10 in nonstressful situations; if a skill simply doesn’t allow a character to take 10 under any circumstances (such as Use Magic Device), skill mastery provides no benefit.

Chronos
2008-09-13, 01:54 PM
And note that Skill Mastery can apply to any skill, whether you can normally take 10 with it or not. It simply says pick 3+Int skills, no qualifications.Strictly speaking, you can take Skill Mastery in UMD, you just can't use it with UMD. So there's no reason you'd ever want to.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-14, 04:36 AM
Actually, you can sneak attack with spells in general. only that there are limitations, like...the spell requires an attack roll and a damage roll...dont remember exactly.Which is why you get a bunch of wands of Acid Splash or Ray of Frost. 1d3+9d6 damage. Just for the humor in "You unleash a Cantrip. And blow a hole through his head. Bastard.":smallbiggrin:

Adumbration
2008-09-14, 04:39 AM
Which is why you get a bunch of wands of Acid Splash or Ray of Frost. 1d3+9d6 damage. Just for the humor in "You unleash a Cantrip. And blow a hole through his head. Bastard.":smallbiggrin:

More like: "The ray of frost hits him directly in the eye, freezing his brain. You bastard."

Bayar
2008-09-14, 05:15 AM
Which is why you get a bunch of wands of Acid Splash or Ray of Frost. 1d3+9d6 damage. Just for the humor in "You unleash a Cantrip. And blow a hole through his head. Bastard.":smallbiggrin:

I prefer Seeking ray wands. Rolling 4d6 + sneak attack is better. The highest is 14d6.

I tried it with a permanently enlarged goliath barbarian with mountain rage and 16 levels in rogue (8d6 SA) while wielding a gargantuan greatsword VIA Monkey Grip. 5d6 + sneak attack + STR (which is well above 24) in a single attack. Roll those 4 times when full attacking.

ocato
2008-09-14, 05:26 AM
Wouldn't Scorching Ray wands be ideal? If the caster level is high enough (Wand Mastery? Go Artificer!) and you can apply metamagic like energy substitution (Go Artificer!) then one use of a wand is three 4d6 rays that can sneak attack and has 101 household uses. That is the coolest gestalt idea ever. Artificer//Rogue. Dual Wand Wielder, two wands of CL11 scorching ray, maybe quicken spell...

"I shoot 9 scorching rays for 4d6 (elemental damage) +9d6 sneak attack each. Lulz"

Of course this is less fun when you realize you're blowing 6 mainhand charges and 2 offhand charges a round, even if you switch them back and forth somehow it averages as 4 charges each a round, which gives you a fairly short amount of use-time at that pace per wand. Good thing Artificers make them like crazy (extraordinary/legendary artisan thank you).

Eldariel
2008-09-14, 05:29 AM
The way to go are Orbs of X. Orb of Fire/Orb of Force are solid, depending on whether you're going for damage or the alternative effects. No Spell Resistance to boot (although the Wands are expensive - a Retain Essence Artificer can afford them easily though).

TheCountAlucard
2008-09-14, 07:42 AM
I tried it with a permanently enlarged goliath barbarian with mountain rage and 16 levels in rogue (8d6 SA) while wielding a gargantuan greatsword VIA Monkey Grip. 5d6 + sneak attack + STR (which is well above 24) in a single attack. Roll those 4 times when full attacking.

Err, no, I'm gonna have to stop you there.

1) Goliath is Monstrous Humanoid, and thus unaffected by Enlarge Person.
2) Monkey Grip doesn't stack with a Goliath's Powerful Build.

Eldariel
2008-09-14, 07:59 AM
Try Giant Sized or Greater Mighty Walloped anything. Or anything Expanded.

SoD
2008-09-14, 08:13 AM
Err, no, I'm gonna have to stop you there.

1) Goliath is Monstrous Humanoid, and thus unaffected by Enlarge Person.
2) Monkey Grip doesn't stack with a Goliath's Powerful Build.

Still possible (working from memory, not books).

Undergo the dragonborn ritual (cost: 100gp, scoff). Which states you gain the humanoid type, and dragonblood (dragonborn? Draconic?) subtype. Now you benefit from enlarge person.

Adumbration
2008-09-14, 08:16 AM
Still possible (working from memory, not books).

Undergo the dragonborn ritual (cost: 100gp, scoff). Which states you gain the humanoid type, and dragonblood (dragonborn? Draconic?) subtype. Now you benefit from enlarge person.

And lose the Powerful Build ability.

SoD
2008-09-14, 08:18 AM
And lose the Powerful Build ability.

They do? Why? I remember them keeping previous racial traits (but, like I said, working from memory). Care to provide a reference for when I jump on the other computer?

Adumbration
2008-09-14, 08:22 AM
They do? Why? I remember them keeping previous racial traits (but, like I said, working from memory). Care to provide a reference for when I jump on the other computer?

I think you retain your ability scores, but lose all the other racial traits. Races of the Dragon, page 10, the Mechanics of Rebirth sidebar.

Dode
2008-09-14, 08:25 AM
THE MECHANICS OF REBIRTH
Upon transformation from her initial race to a dragonborn,
a supplicant loses many racial traits and gains those of the
dragonborn. The following information describes how to mechanically
achieve this transformation.
Type, Subtype, and Race: You retain your original type and
subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype. You still count as
a member of your original race for the purpose of any effect or
prerequisite that depends on race.

Damn, you'd lose Powerful Build and still wouldn't be able to be enlarged.

SoD
2008-09-14, 08:25 AM
Thanks, I'll have to check that one (there goes my next arena character! So much for the goliath cleric with a huge sized great falchion...)

Dode
2008-09-14, 08:29 AM
Just give him a Major Titan Bloodline.



Level 12: Use oversized weapon (Ex) *

* as the Titan special ability




Oversized Weapon (Ex)

A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty.

I think I exploded an OoTSer's brain when i found that one :smallcool:

AstralFire
2008-09-14, 08:30 AM
Titan is one of like two bloodlines that doesn't suck, and that's why.

TheCountAlucard
2008-09-14, 08:31 AM
Thanks, I'll have to check that one (there goes my next arena character! So much for the goliath cleric with a huge sized great falchion...)

Well, if you just wanna wield a big weapon, go with...
1) Goliath - is effectively Large for purposes of wielding weapons.
2) Grab a club sized for Huge creatures and wield it two-handed. By the way, it costs 0 gp, which is certainly a plus.
3) Take a single level in Druid for shillelagh (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shillelagh.htm).

Congratulations; you're now wielding an effectively-Colossal weapon.

SoD
2008-09-14, 08:33 AM
Well, if you're playing a game expected to go from ECL 1-4 or so, take a minor bloodline if you can. You'll never need the 'level' of bloodline. So they can be useful.

Dode
2008-09-14, 08:35 AM
Orrr...

Goliath for Powerful Build (wields large shield for damage)
Put spikes on the shield (now it's a huge Shield)
Enchant the shield with Bashing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#bashing) (congrats you have a colossal shield)

You know what they say is the best offense...