How does Therkla have to choose?

[Firestar27]

Why can't Therkla rescue Elan and then (somehow) make Kubota go away? How is this a choice between rescuing Elan and stopping Kubota's plan. Usually when something like this happens, it works because if not stopped then the "girl" will die or the plan will be complete. If one is ignored, then the other is completed. This doesn't seem to be the case here.

[Felixaar]

If Therkla rescues Elan, the Kato's will die. If Therkla rescues the Kato's, Elan will die.

[Firestar27]

If Therkla rescues Elan, the Kato's will die. If Therkla rescues the Kato's, Elan will die.

That's what you would assume, but there isn't a sword next to the Katos like there's one next to Elan. Also, couldn't she just make two attacks?

[NerfTW]

No, the choice is rescue Elan by letting Kubota's plans proceed (they don't kill him), or try to fight Kubota and his ninjas, while one of them is in position to simply slit Elan's throat. The Kato's aren't really part of the choice.

[FujinAkari]

If Elan is saved, then Elan -knows- that Kubata is behind the sea troll attacks, which will lead directly to his execution.

[David Argall]

No, the choice is rescue Elan by letting Kubota's plans proceed (they don't kill him), or try to fight Kubota and his ninjas, while one of them is in position to simply slit Elan's throat. The Kato's aren't really part of the choice.

Since Kubota's plan is to kill the Kato's, there isn't much of a distinction here, tho this is likely the better wording.



If Elan is saved, then Elan -knows- that Kubata is behind the sea troll attacks, which will lead directly to his execution.
This is definitely a long term problem. However, Therkla may well be willing to hope Kubota keeps Elan as a prisoner who can't talk. A thin hope since Kubota is likely to find Therkla and Elan needless risks now, but given the alternate looks to be certain death for Elan, she might go for it.

[SPoD]

If Elan is saved, then Elan -knows- that Kubata is behind the sea troll attacks, which will lead directly to his execution.

This is it right here.

Therkla wants both Kubota and Elan to survive and stay free. But, if she rescues Elan, Elan will now be able to say with unimpeachable certainty, "Kubota ordered his men to hold a sword to my throat." That's attempted murder. And that will send Kubota to the prison boat.

Kubota is forcing the issue by eliminating the "everyone just goes home" option that Therkla gave him. By committing an overtly illegal act in front of witnesses, instead of his usual equivocating, he forces Therkla to choose to either rescue Elan (and condemn Kubota to prison) or let Kubota succeed in his plans (and condemn Elan to death).

I don't think it's much of a difficult choice for her, really; she'll choose to save Elan. But it is still a choice.

[recluso]

I assume Therkla to expect Hinjo and co to be killed to the demon, so Elan escaping is not necessarily catastrophic for Kubota.

The fact Daigo and Kazumi are tied up instead of being executed (much easier) already prepares for a followup in which they escape some cruel and time consuming death trap Kubota will put them in.

Therkla just has to talk Kubota into a non-instant way of killing Elan, Daigo and Kazumi and then rescue them.

With all the genre savvy talk it would fit.

[innk]

What i REALLY dont understand is not this decision thing, but how can 2 low-mid lvl npcs (lets say, lvl 9, that would be really good already, seens more logical a lvl 7, 8 max..) can simply GRAB one of the lvl 13-14 PCs like this.

I mean, i know that they just did a grapple check and succeed, thats not really hard to do, but now what, Elan would just stand still waiting for his execution, why would he allow the npcs to just murder him? He can just, attack or something on his turn, cant he?


This whole situation of therkla needing to chose isnt really necessary i think, Elan could just release himself and fight (i bet he alone could win this match but im really no D&D expert..)

In fact, this thing about putting a knife on the hostage throat doesnt really work on D&D as far as i know.. you cant coup the grace someone thats.. active (not sleeping, maybe something else?)





OH well, thats all bull****, its a web comic and not an d&d game and i know all of this.
I just really like D&D discussions like this, so sorry :P

[MyrddinDerwydd]

What i REALLY dont understand is not this decision thing, but how can 2 low-mid lvl npcs (lets say, lvl 9, that would be really good already, seens more logical a lvl 7, 8 max..) can simply GRAB one of the lvl 13-14 PCs like this.

It's Elan. I love him, but he's just not the best at hand to hand combat...or fist...foot...head...anything combat, and being grabbed from behind by ninja's doesn't leave much room for dramatic Dashing Swordsman efforts.

[Jayngfet]

My guess is that Kubota tries to kill everyone. Therkla's not exactly wholly loyal and anyone living means execution for him.

Of course Therkla'll probably kill him if he tried that.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Beyond that, we know the members of OoTS have no spot mods worth a boop, and Elan has a Wis penalty. He's a Light Armor user who was flatfooted v. a Touch Attack, and he's got a Str penalty and partial BAB, so the Grapple was a foregone conclusion as well. Without a Light Weapon it's not like he can deal damage in a Grapple, either.

In other words, he was booped before any dice were rolled. Sorry.

[innk]

Beyond that, we know the members of OoTS have no spot mods worth a boop, and Elan has a Wis penalty. He's a Light Armor user who was flatfooted v. a Touch Attack, and he's got a Str penalty and partial BAB, so the Grapple was a foregone conclusion as well. Without a Light Weapon it's not like he can deal damage in a Grapple, either.

In other words, he was booped before any dice were rolled. Sorry.

Yes, yes i know this, i said it was ok to him just failed against a grapple check, thats even the most possible scenario there.

But what, on his turn cant he make another grapple check to release himself? Counter attack in any form?


Look, my knowledge on the rules is really small as i already said, but cmom, its a lvl 13-14 PC against 2 lvl 7-8-9 npc soldiers, i´ve got kinda disappointed that they could just GRAB and surrender Elan like this.. it would be an encounter level of what, 11? 12? Im not saying Elan should´ve completely eliminate the soldiers from existence on the very first round, im just saying that a FIGHT there would be not just better for the rules, since the rules doesnt matter much here, but it would be.. how can i say.. more cool :P


When Elan became a dashing swordsman it boosted his character in my opinion, the old elan who could do absolutely NOTHING in combat always looked.. unfair for me.. I didnt like much this situation when he is put to the ground by some random low level npcs, when we know that he is in fact, COOL now, even on combat :P



Please, im not "complaining" about the rules because i think that Rich really needs to follow then and rewrite everything to be OK in the rules.
Im saying my opinion about this situation, that for the story a fight scene there would be, again, more cool :P
Damn, thats not even that, im not even really complaining about the story itself or anything, I just wanted to start a D&D discussion here, because I really like it, discussing D&D :)



(damn, someone needs to teach me another way to say this "more cool" thing.. as you probably already noted, English is not my main language..)

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Elan is in a Grapple with his poor Str and BAB of 9. The Ninja's at level 8 have a BAB of 6. If Elan has a penalty to Str and they have a bonus, or heavens forbid, the Imp. Grapple feat, Elan is at a disadvantage in any Grapple check. Combine that with the fact that he needs to break 2 holds, and they have Readied Actions to stab him(getting Sudden Strike damage), the odds are extremely against him if he does anything. Yes, he has a chance, but probably, given that a Grapple is the worst possible situation for a Caster, he's got no chance, and would die for trying.

[SPoD]

A character can be cool or effective at one thing without being effective at EVERYthing. Elan has exactly ONE effective combat technique, and it ain't grappling. The samurai are likely stronger and may even have specialized grappling feats.

Besides, we haven't seen Elan's turn yet. He may well break free a moment later. Everyone knows that punchline panels interrupt the normal initiative cycle.

[Caelis]

You're all missing the point. This is Elan we're talking about. The same Elan that waited for a dungeon to explode while he was still inside so he could make a dramatic escape. The same Elan who could easily escape a net but didn't because he knew it was part of the plot.

Now he's in one of the most cliché dramatic situations. Do you really think that Elan would take the easy way out here? Literature conventions must be followed! Even if it has death as a consequence and he could easily get away alive.

[Ganurath]

You're all missing the point. This is Elan we're talking about. The same Elan that waited for a dungeon to explode while he was still inside so he could make a dramatic escape. The same Elan who could easily escape a net but didn't because he knew it was part of the plot.

Now he's in one of the most cliché dramatic situations. Do you really think that Elan would take the easy way out here? Literature conventions must be followed! Even if it has death as a consequence and he could easily get away alive.193. If I am using the hero's girlfriend as a hostage and am holding her at the point of imminent death when confronting the hero, I will focus on her and not him. He won't try anything with his true love held hostage. On the other hand, the fact that she has been weak, slow-witted, naive and generally useless up to this point has no bearing on her actions at the moment of dramatic climax.

[AceOfFools]

^ From the list of things I will not do if I become an evil overlord.

[Prowl]

You're all missing the point. This is Elan we're talking about. The same Elan that waited for a dungeon to explode while he was still inside so he could make a dramatic escape. The same Elan who could easily escape a net but didn't because he knew it was part of the plot.

Now he's in one of the most cliché dramatic situations. Do you really think that Elan would take the easy way out here? Literature conventions must be followed! Even if it has death as a consequence and he could easily get away alive.

I'm with you. Dramatic tension demands that Elan 'follow the plot' on this one, and it would be VERY un-Elan-like for him to act differently now.

[Inhuman Bot]

on the grapple: I assume the Katanas and heavy or medium armour suggests that Kubota's men are not ninjas. More likely, they are fighters or warriors (as who would *ever* pick samurai?), and thus have a better BaB then ninjas (I belive).

[FujinAkari]

Elan is in a Grapple with his poor Str and BAB of 9. The Ninja's at level 8 have a BAB of 6. If Elan has a penalty to Str and they have a bonus, or heavens forbid, the Imp. Grapple feat, Elan is at a disadvantage in any Grapple check. Combine that with the fact that he needs to break 2 holds, and they have Readied Actions to stab him(getting Sudden Strike damage), the odds are extremely against him if he does anything. Yes, he has a chance, but probably, given that a Grapple is the worst possible situation for a Caster, he's got no chance, and would die for trying.]

Decent analysis, except that Ninjas aren't holding Elan, Samurai are. They have a BAB of 8 or 9, making the odds even MORE against him.