PDA

View Full Version : [4e] Wizard Dailies



Mauril Everleaf
2008-09-12, 01:18 AM
Essentially, this thread is to discuss the differing views on how wizards replace their daily attack spells. The two different views are that when a wizard hits level 15 and is required to replace a daily attack that a) the wizard is allowed to add one level 15 daily attack spell and removes one lower level daily attack spell or b) the wizard gains two level 15 daily attack spells and removes two lower level spells.

The corollary has to do with the feat Expanded Spellbook. Side A would say that it has no effect, the wizard still only gains one new spell while removing one old one. Side B would say that the wizard gains three new spells while removing three old spells. Alternative options include gaining two spells while removing one, gaining two spells while removing two and gaining three spells while removing two.

I queried Customer Service about it. While not a definitive answer (it is CustServ after all), the guys I talked with agreed with side B. Below is the correspondence between "Paul", "Marc" and me.


I am a bit confused about how a wizard replaces his daily spells (at level 15, for example). The wording on page 158 states that whenever a wizard gains a new level of daily attack spells, he selects two spells. It later states that when replacing a spell, he removes one and adds another. My question here is how many daily spells the wizard gains when he needs to replace them. Does he gain two new dailies (while removing two old dailies) or does he simply gain one new daily (while replacing one old daily)?

The second part of this question is how Expanded Spellbook affects this. Since it states that when a wizard would gain a level of daily spells, he gains one extra, explicitly stating that he would gain three instead of two. So does this take effect at level 15, allowing the wizard to take an additional spell? If it does, does the wizard need to also remove an additional spell (Add three level 15 spells and remove, for example, three level 1 spells)?

When replacing powers, you will replace both, not one. If you have the Expanded Spellbook feat, they would replace 3. While retraining is only ever one power.

To confirm, "replacing" refers to the levels at which the wizard removes a lower level power for a higher level power. For Dailies, these would occur at levels 15, 19, 25 and 29 (page 29 of the PHB). "Retraining" refers to the ability to swap out a power for one of an equivalent level each time the character levels up. That distinction might make a big difference to how I plan my 20 level build.

Yes, you are correct, "replacing" refers to the levels at which the wizard removes a lower level power for a higher level power, and Retraining" refers to the ability to swap out a power for one of an equivalent level each time the character levels up. I hope this information is useful.

Please chime in, I would like to hear what everyone else thinks.

Charity
2008-09-12, 02:35 AM
To be honest, I think the intent is pretty clear that a wizard replaces all his dailies of a given level for the new level of dailies.

I would go one further and allow the wizards to elect to keep one (or two with expanded spellbook) of the lower level spells if they should wish (sleep I'm looking at you).

I cannot see the designers deliberately gimping wizards at higher level for no good reason, this comes down to a mis-reading of the rules rather than an alternative reading in my opinion.

TheOOB
2008-09-12, 03:18 AM
It's pretty simply really, basically, you gain three class daily power slots, and a daily power slot can hold any power of the slots level or lower, it just so happens that wizards get two powers per slot(three with expanded spellbook). So when you hit level 15 and your level 1 daily power slot gets upgraded to level 15, you, for free, gain the ability to replace the power in the slot with any power(s) it could legally hold, thus if you want to keep sleep as one of your powers go ahead.

For retraining I would generally allow a wizard to retrain all the powers in a slot in a single level, but I could see arguments for both sides.

Douglas
2008-09-12, 03:23 AM
I'm pretty sure the RAI goes as follows:
Each set of 2 (or 3 with the feat) daily or utility powers is treated as if the entire set were a single power. Each day you get to pick which one of the powers in each set you're actually using that day. When you swap them out, you swap out an entire set all at once and replace it with a whole new set.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-12, 03:32 AM
Reading (a) makes one of the wizard's class features, i.e. spell memorization, worthless at higher levels. That is clearly not what the rules intend.

Winged One
2008-09-12, 04:29 AM
I thought it was reading B as well...but the fact that CustServ uses reading B really makes me doubt it now.

fractic
2008-09-12, 05:22 AM
I wouldn't worry about what a wizard has in his spellbook. I'd worry about this line



[...]you can prepare a number of daily and utility spells according to what you can cast for that day

You could read that so that you can prepare 2 level 5 daily powers at level 5 instead of one level 5 and one level 1.

kme
2008-09-12, 06:06 AM
Another question is, what happens in a case of multiclass wizard who swaps some of his powers? And if he has expanded spellbook...

KillianHawkeye
2008-09-12, 06:09 AM
No, because you cannot cast two level 5 spells in one day.

fractic
2008-09-12, 06:09 AM
No, because you cannot cast two level 5 spells in one day.

I totally agree but there is nowhere that it actually says that.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-12, 08:04 AM
Reading (a) makes one of the wizard's class features, i.e. spell memorization, worthless at higher levels. That is clearly not what the rules intend.

Not really - it just makes bookkeeping really complicated. If you swapped out one of your two 1st-level daily attacks for a 15th-level daily attack, you'd have to pick whether to memorize the 1st-level or the 15th-level daily attack - you couldn't have both.

Wacky, isn't it?

Holocron Coder
2008-09-12, 08:19 AM
I totally agree but there is nowhere that it actually says that.

The giant class-leveling-progression table states what you can cast each day. Level 5 is not on there twice.

fractic
2008-09-12, 08:35 AM
The giant class-leveling-progression table states what you can cast each day. Level 5 is not on there twice.

In case you meant the table on page 29 of the PHB, that only mentions total powers known. It doesn't mention of what levels those powers are nor does it say what level of powers you can use.

If you were referring to the table on page 143 of the DMG, this table does mention levels but it again only mentions of what levels you have powers.

For any class but the wizard there is no problem since they only have one daily power per level. For the wizard this is different. I'm not saying that the wizard should be allowed to prepare 2 level 5 daily powers at level 5. In fact I believe that to be the opposite of the RAI. I'm just saying it is possible to interpret that sentence the wrong way and that will have more effect on a game then a wizard knowing a few extra low level powers.

Starsinger
2008-09-12, 10:38 AM
No, because you cannot cast two level 5 spells in one day.

I totally agree but there is nowhere that it actually says that.

Treating what Killian said strictly as truth, leads to a problem. As if you learn a level 5 daily at level 15, you may certainly cast two level 5 spells in one day.

Now, a better way to look at that is that you have slots. You could put a level 5 power in the level 15 slot, but you can't put a level 5 power in the level 1 slot. With this, if the Wizard wanted to put another level 1 daily in his level 5 slot, I'd let him. I just wouldn't let him put another level 5 daily in his level 1 slot.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-09-12, 10:44 AM
Since the Wizards pick their spells after resting I've never made any of my players have their Wizards retrain at all. They could keep their older spellbooks and use lower level spells if they really wanted to though none of them have so far.

fractic
2008-09-12, 11:34 AM
Now, a better way to look at that is that you have slots. You could put a level 5 power in the level 15 slot, but you can't put a level 5 power in the level 1 slot. With this, if the Wizard wanted to put another level 1 daily in his level 5 slot, I'd let him. I just wouldn't let him put another level 5 daily in his level 1 slot.

I agree that this is how it should be done. Problem is that the rules don't explicitly state this.

Blackfang108
2008-09-12, 11:46 AM
To be honest, I think the intent is pretty clear that a wizard replaces all his dailies of a given level for the new level of dailies.

I would go one further and allow the wizards to elect to keep one (or two with expanded spellbook) of the lower level spells if they should wish (sleep I'm looking at you).

There's nothing saying a Wizard can't replace "Sleep" with "Sleep." It says Replace one power with another of equal or lower level with your PC, not "replace one lower level with a current level."

so, TECHNICALLY, all three are being swapped. He's just swapping one for his.


I agree that this is how it should be done. Problem is that the rules don't explicitly state this.

The constitution doesn't explicitly state you have the right to do a crossword puzzle while sitting on a park bench. Laws don't explicitly state that it's Legal.

If it doesn't say you CAN'T, you CAN.

Artanis
2008-09-12, 12:41 PM
The constitution doesn't explicitly state you have the right to do a crossword puzzle while sitting on a park bench. Laws don't explicitly state that it's Legal.

If it doesn't say you CAN'T, you CAN.
This is usually referred to as the "Air Bud Clause". If you want to find out why this sort arguement is generally regarded as thoroughly invalid, go watch the movie after which it's named.