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Nero24200
2008-09-12, 08:13 AM
Hello all

In an upcomming campaign I was considering a gnome assassin-esc character, but due to fluff reasons I'm looking for another race. When I mentioned changeling, my DM insited they were broken.

While I think he's completely wrong here, I figure it was best to get some perspective on the subject first. Are changelings broken? Or is my DM greaty overestimating their power?

Xenogears
2008-09-12, 08:16 AM
I don't think they are broken. Once they get to high levels the alter-self ability is all but useless as any caster can do better with no trouble at all. They are definately best when they have rogue levels so they can do awesome disguises and assassinate people. Useful at lower levels but not overpowered.

Nero24200
2008-09-12, 08:18 AM
Actually, changelings to not gain Alter Self, they gain Disguise Self. It's purely an aethestetic change they get.

Xenogears
2008-09-12, 08:21 AM
I knew what the ability did. Just forgot the name. Either way all they can do is make disguises.

JeminiZero
2008-09-12, 08:39 AM
Put it this way, their primary ability can be largely replicated by a 1800 gp Hat of Disguise (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Hat_of_disguise).

Of course disguise self isn't their only ability, they are the only 0 LA race other than humans that qualify for able learner (and hence chameleon). And their shapechanger subtype lets them go into warshaper by level 5.

Flashlight
2008-09-12, 08:52 AM
Hm, per RAW, disguise self gives an unnamed bonus to disguise checks, the changeling ability gives circumstance bonus, so the two would stack, wouldn't they?

Changelings are not overpowered

Jack_Simth
2008-09-12, 03:55 PM
Hello all

In an upcomming campaign I was considering a gnome assassin-esc character, but due to fluff reasons I'm looking for another race. When I mentioned changeling, my DM insited they were broken.

While I think he's completely wrong here, I figure it was best to get some perspective on the subject first. Are changelings broken? Or is my DM greaty overestimating their power?
They're rather strong if played to their strengths, at low-level.

That is, a Changeling-rogue-3 can pretty much take over a kingdom fairly readily, provided he's not opposed by anyone over about 5th level, and not opposed by anyone who's putting a lot of recourses into locating frauds. In a dungeon? Not so much.

If used with certain PrC's, they've got some nifties that are a bit on the strong side (a Changeling Fighter-3/Barbarian-1/Warshaper-5/Frenzied Berserker-X is a great melee brute). With regular classes? Not so much.

Basically, the Changling is a very specialized racial choice. When played to the racial specialization, it does very well at that specialization. But for the most part, that specialization doesn't overlap much with normal play. If your DM is intending a primarily social campaign, he's right. If he's doing Hack'n'Slash, Monty Haul, or isn't going to let it become a social campaign, the advantages of the Changling aren't all that advantageous.

AstralFire
2008-09-12, 04:04 PM
The coolest thing about the changeling in a non-social game is letting your Mary Sue tendencies run wild and letting your eye and hair color shift with mood.

Bayar
2008-09-12, 04:08 PM
Everybody will say changelings are broken because they can change their gender. That is why the DM will NEVER allow you to take ranks in profession (prostitute).

AstralFire
2008-09-12, 04:12 PM
Everybody will say changelings are broken because they can change their gender. That is why the DM will NEVER allow you to take ranks in profession (prostitute).

They can change their sex. Gender is inherent to the mind. And gender issues seem to be popular to explore with the Changeling, I know of three or four including myself who have done it.

DareTheRogue
2008-09-12, 04:37 PM
My favorite build for social games is:
Changling Rogue 2/Sorcerer 4/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 5/Unseen Seer 5

I read all of your minds all the time forever and ever.... oh and I'll play a few low lvl spells on the fly

kme
2008-09-12, 04:40 PM
Don't forget that changelings cannot change their clothes(with change shape that is :smalltongue:). So their ability is not that easily abused.

Beleriphon
2008-09-12, 04:45 PM
Lets not forget their signature ability is a massive +10 to disguise checks. Thats it, they still have to be effected by the usual penalties. Thus a male changeling disguised as a female elf is at a -4 to the check for being a different gender and race.

RTGoodman
2008-09-12, 04:49 PM
Don't forget that changelings cannot change their clothes(with change shape that is :smalltongue:). So their ability is not that easily abused.

Of course, there's a very cheap magic item somewhere (reprinted in the MIC, as far as I remember) that is a set of clothing you can change at will. Swiftcloth or something like that, it's called.

Beleriphon is right about the penalties, though - a lot of people don't remember the various penalties associated with Disguise, as we learned once in an all-kobold campaign where we had to sneak into a town full of humans and gnomes.

EDIT@\/: Disguise self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disguiseSelf.htm) is actually only a 1st-level spell, and yet it's still in NO way overpowered. Even Warshaper has requirements that prevent early entry (BAB +5), and that's about all I can think of.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-09-12, 04:50 PM
Yeah, I'm failing to see how changelings are overpowered, aside from early warshaper abuse or something. Their ability is, what, a third level spell? A sorceror or wizard can do the same thing, and tons of other stuff besides...

AstralFire
2008-09-12, 04:52 PM
Yeah, I'm failing to see how changelings are overpowered, aside from early warshaper abuse or something. Their ability is, what, a third level spell? A sorceror or wizard can do the same thing, and tons of other stuff besides...

Not even, Alter Self is stronger in most ways.

The clothing is Glamerweave, from EbCS.

RTGoodman
2008-09-12, 04:54 PM
Not even, Alter Self is stronger in most ways.

But changelings only get disguise self, not alter self. Big difference.

Beleriphon
2008-09-12, 04:56 PM
But changelings only get disguise self, not alter self. Big difference.

They don't even get that, they get a racial abilities that uses the same limitations as the spell. With a circumstance bonus, so it doesn't even stack with a good number of other bonuses (bonii?).

AstralFire
2008-09-12, 05:07 PM
But changelings only get disguise self, not alter self. Big difference.

...that was my point...

Dode
2008-09-12, 05:20 PM
Broken?

Only Changeling I played with had a series of alternate identities so he could move around in different social circles. Then, during a city riot and he was assuming an identity unknown to the party, he deliberately walked into an ambush and got his ass kicked and kidnapped.

And since our party didn't even know anything was wrong, well...

Chronos
2008-09-12, 06:54 PM
With a circumstance bonus, so it doesn't even stack with a good number of other bonuses (bonii?).Circumstance bonuses stack with each other (contrary to the normal rule) as long as they come from different circumstances. So a changeling with a disguise kit (both circumstance bonuses) gets a +12, 10 from the racial ability and 2 from the masterwork tool.

The changeling ability is slightly superior to Disguise Self (whether from the spell or a Hat of Disguise), in that it's a physical change, not just visual. So if you make yourself look like a lizardfolk, your skin will still feel scaly when you shake someone's hand.

And if you want to use the Latin plural of "bonus", it's "boni". Latin never uses two 'i's for a plural. In words like "radii", the second 'i' is what makes it plural, and the first 'i' was in the singular form of the word in the first place.

Worira
2008-09-12, 07:23 PM
Lets not forget their signature ability is a massive +10 to disguise checks. Thats it, they still have to be effected by the usual penalties. Thus a male changeling disguised as a female elf is at a -4 to the check for being a different gender and race.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

monty
2008-09-12, 07:38 PM
Isn't the plural "bona," since the neutral form is bonum?

Stupid etymology...

hotel_papa
2008-09-12, 07:43 PM
That makes no sense whatsoever.

Agreed. The ability specifically says it's a physical change, including anatomy and even the ability to procreate. The gender rule would not apply.

As for the race... still a stretch, but I would at least eliminate it if they took the Racial Emulation feat. If I was imposing it in the first place. Which I wouldn't. Because that would then mean that the Changling's famed and feared ability to look like anyone else is only really potent when they attempt to look like other changlings. Who then, in turn, could look like anyone else...wait, what?

HP

monty
2008-09-12, 07:49 PM
So, rather than looking like a dwarf, they just have to look like a changeling who looks like a dwarf. Simple, isn't it?

Frosty
2008-09-12, 07:50 PM
Changing genders has its dangers though. I bet Changelings don't like to get pregnant. If you're a changeling, would you want to be stuck in one form for 9 months or whatever their gestation period is?

monty
2008-09-12, 07:54 PM
Better get some magical protection (a use for the BoEF!), or at least a "dwarven defender."

Tingel
2008-09-12, 08:00 PM
Isn't the plural "bona," since the neutral form is bonum?
No, because bonus and bonum are two different words with two different meanings. The proper plural of bonus is boni (like Chronos said).

RTGoodman
2008-09-12, 08:03 PM
No, because bonus and bonum are two different words with two different meanings. The proper plural of bonus is boni (like Chronos said).

Except we speak English, not Latin, so the proper (modern) plural is "bonuses." :smallwink:


Better get some magical protection (a use for the BoEF!), or at least a "dwarven defender."

*Rimshot* That's probably the best innuendo based on a D&D term I've ever heard.

Draz74
2008-09-12, 08:13 PM
Changeling characters combined with the Warshaper PrC can be overpowered. (Racial features make the PrC easier to enter than it was intended to be.)

Flickerdart
2008-09-12, 08:41 PM
Changing genders has its dangers though. I bet Changelings don't like to get pregnant. If you're a changeling, would you want to be stuck in one form for 9 months or whatever their gestation period is?
Why couldn't you just shift to, well, anything else? The egg cell would still be part of you, so shifting would obliterate it.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-12, 08:51 PM
Why couldn't you just shift to, well, anything else? The egg cell would still be part of you, so shifting would obliterate it.Wouldn't that be about the same argument one would use if one were trying to say it would eliminate a mouse held in the mouth, or a parasite in the body, or a virus, or a fungus, or....

For whatever reason, the guy that made the official ruling on that decided that there was some form of safety or other in the racial ability to change forms that prevented shifting while pregnant.

If you want it in evolutionist terms, creatures that don't reproduce don't live long as a species - and as pregnancy isn't particularly obvious in the first month or so, if there were not such a safety, there would be very, very few second-generation Changelings - Changelings would pretty much be very rare, unique individuals. Changelings would basically never be mothers, so the racial blood would thin to nothing in very short order.

If you want it in creationist terms, that new life is a sacred, wonderful gift, which is protected from such accidental destruction.

In either case, you get the same result - no shifting when pregnant.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-12, 08:52 PM
Why couldn't you just shift to, well, anything else? The egg cell would still be part of you, so shifting would obliterate it.BoEF has rules on that. Changing genders when significantly pregnant(not sure what week it starts, but it's soon) causes Con drain while killing the fetus. Even changing forms causes a chance of losing the baby, with the Con penalty that accompanies it. The longer the pregnancy goes on, the more severe it is, though if you shift significantly at all in the early weeks you abort with only minimal penalties, if any at all.

The Glyphstone
2008-09-12, 09:30 PM
...Wait...people use the BoEF?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-12, 09:33 PM
...Wait...people use the BoEF?Wait, people don't? It's an invaluable resource for world-building and character development. I'm not going to ever use any of it as a player, but a lot of the info in it about racial cultures and such is too good to pass up.

The Glyphstone
2008-09-12, 09:36 PM
True - I guess I can't help looking at it through the lens of my game group...I'd never let them within a million miles of a physical copy of that book if I knew it was present. Though at least then I wouldn't have to homebrew 'social diseases' to keep them from goofing off too much...:smalleek:

RTGoodman
2008-09-12, 09:40 PM
True - I guess I can't help looking at it through the lens of my game group...I'd never let them within a million miles of a physical copy of that book if I knew it was present. Though at least then I wouldn't have to homebrew 'social diseases' to keep them from goofing off too much...:smalleek:

There is some stuff in it that some groups can't handle because of maturity issues, but some of it, like Sstoopidtallkid said, is pretty useful. I mean, sometimes you just need to know, for instance, the mating habits of bugbears or the gestation time of elves or something. Also, if you've got the powergamers, there is some pretty broken stuff in there, too.

BRC
2008-09-12, 09:40 PM
It depends on the campaign really. In my current campaign stealth and subtlety are a big part of things, and so I banned changelings. However, in a Kick-in-the-door face-smasher campaign they arn't that good.

monty
2008-09-12, 10:05 PM
No, because bonus and bonum are two different words with two different meanings. The proper plural of bonus is boni (like Chronos said).

From http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bonus:

Because Latin has gender, this would mean "a good man (male)". Properly formed, the word should be bonum (neuter gender), meaning "a good thing"...Its plural would then be bona.

Also, rtg0922 is right. According to every dictionary I've seen, the only correct English plural is "bonuses."

Oh well. At least it's not as bad as octopus, which isn't even Latin.




Anyway, to get back on topic...
+10 to Disguise is hardly game-breaking, especially when spellcasting can make that largely irrelevant.
Also, my DM pretty much nerfs my current character (a changeling) into oblivion, by giving practically every other major enemy True Seeing.

Flickerdart
2008-09-12, 10:22 PM
There is some stuff in it that some groups can't handle because of maturity issues, but some of it, like Sstoopidtallkid said, is pretty useful. I mean, sometimes you just need to know, for instance, the mating habits of bugbears or the gestation time of elves or something. Also, if you've got the powergamers, there is some pretty broken stuff in there, too.
Broken stuff...in BoEF? I doubt going around bedding orcs and then killing them with those rules is a viable battle strategy. Then again, I have not read the book...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-12, 10:25 PM
Broken stuff...in BoEF? I doubt going around bedding orcs and then killing them with those rules is a viable battle strategy. Then again, I have not read the book...There's a couple PrCs and such that shouldn't have been made, but it's not bad. Voyeuristic Seer is great for Sorcerers without being overpowered. On the other hand, it's a blessing that Tippy has never bothered including the Metamagic Spellshaper in his Cindy builds.

monty
2008-09-12, 10:32 PM
I assume you mean the Metaphysical Spellshaper? Gods, that thing is broken. It's like Incantatrix packed into three levels.

EvilElitest
2008-09-12, 10:40 PM
They can change their sex. Gender is inherent to the mind. And gender issues seem to be popular to explore with the Changeling, I know of three or four including myself who have done it.

odd, nobody in my group has done it, even when NPCs have. They find it weird. To be fair, only a few have played changlings, but they always keep them in the same gender every time.
from
EE

Charm Caster
2008-09-12, 10:45 PM
What is BoFD?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-12, 10:49 PM
What is BoFD?BoEF. Book of Erotic Fantasy. Rules for sex, pregnancy, magic items, classes, that sort of thing. Not exactly respected.

And yes, I meant Metaphysical Spellshaper. Gets you a bonus feat, -1 to metamagic adjustment, and the ability to take Ability Damage instead of increasing the spell level. Not cool, not cool at all.

monty
2008-09-12, 10:49 PM
BoEF. Book of Erotic Fantasy. You're probably better off not knowing about it.

Edit: damn ninjas...

Charm Caster
2008-09-12, 10:54 PM
Ok, thank you.

EvilElitest
2008-09-12, 11:15 PM
Ok, thank you.

for the record, it was not published by WotC
from
EE

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-12, 11:16 PM
for the record, it was not published by WotC
from
EEHence why I said it was fairly well balanced, other than a few outliers. :smallwink:

FMArthur
2008-09-13, 02:04 AM
Changeling abilities come out being subpar in combat, but otherwise provide quick and reliable means to avoid combat altogether (and get things combat couldn't have gotten you). The only combat trick I was able to use the ability for was fighting in fog and changing into the enemies' allies to render them flat-footed.

And, as others have mentioned, changeling abilities don't scale with level, so in the higher levels it's almost like your race didn't matter, as can be said for many races. Another +1 for the human bonus feat. :smallsigh:

Winged One
2008-09-13, 04:45 AM
Changing genders has its dangers though. I bet Changelings don't like to get pregnant. If you're a changeling, would you want to be stuck in one form for 9 months or whatever their gestation period is?
If I remember the section in Races of Eberron right, pregnant changelings are unable to take male or neuter forms, but can shift between female or hermaphrodite forms freely.

Tingel
2008-09-13, 05:18 AM
Also, rtg0922 is right. According to every dictionary I've seen, the only correct English plural is "bonuses."
Obviously. But if you take the time to read the posts that lead up to mine you'll see that it was about the proper Latin plural, not the proper English plural.

Your claim that bona is the plural to bonus is simply incorrect, as bonum and bonus are not identical.

Also, whoever wrote the wiktionary article you quoted has little understanding of grammatical genders. Translating bonus as "a good man" is absurd. Grammatical gender has nothing to do with natural gender, and claiming that choosing the bonum form for the English term would be more appropriate is thus baseless.

Bonus has a specific meaning in English, beyond its meaning in Latin. Bonum does not share this meaning. Using bona as its plural (if one is so inclined to use Latin declension) is therefore not tenable.


I am sorry for being so off-topic.

MartinHarper
2008-09-13, 06:00 AM
Race and gender are more than just physiology. A male shapechanger pretending to be a female elf has to behave like a female elf to pull off a successful disguise. That's very possible, but it's not trivial. Gait and voice and other traits are partly a function of physiology, but partly a function of sociology. As a silly example, if the shapechanger reflexively uses a phrase like "I'm your man!", people will know that something is up. If the disguise check fails, folks might think that the 'female elf' is a tomboy who grew up in foreign lands, whereas a successful disguise check indicates that he successfully passes as a female elf.

Flashlight
2008-09-13, 06:49 AM
Race and gender are more than just physiology. A male shapechanger pretending to be a female elf has to behave like a female elf to pull off a successful disguise.

That's why a Changeling should have lots of ranks in Knowledge (local), just roll and ask what you know about elves/dwarves/whatever. Also, Changelings have Speak Language as class skill, it's convincing if the female elf in question also speaks Elf. I also don't think that Changelings get the malus for disguising as other race, since they really "feel" like the other race, so no fake ear elves.

Changelings could be great fun for games with social interaction, but most DM don't want to mess with that since it's elaborate.

SoD
2008-09-13, 06:54 AM
Of course disguise self isn't their only ability, they are the only 0 LA race other than humans that qualify for able learner (and hence chameleon). And their shapechanger subtype lets them go into warshaper by level 5.

I beleive, by RAW, the changeling doesn't qualify for Chameleon, as a pre-req is human or doppelganger. That being said, if your DM tells you that, give him a BOOT TO THE HEAD! They should quilify.

AstralFire
2008-09-13, 08:22 AM
Changeling abilities come out being subpar in combat, but otherwise provide quick and reliable means to avoid combat altogether (and get things combat couldn't have gotten you). The only combat trick I was able to use the ability for was fighting in fog and changing into the enemies' allies to render them flat-footed.

Pretty clever. I've never played a spellcaster changeling past level 4, so that never occurred to me.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-13, 08:34 AM
I beleive, by RAW, the changeling doesn't qualify for Chameleon, as a pre-req is human or doppelganger. That being said, if your DM tells you that, give him a BOOT TO THE HEAD! They should quilify.
Check the adaptation notes at the bottom. It's in the class description that if Changelings are in the campaign, they it "should be made available" to them.

Beleriphon
2008-09-13, 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
Lets not forget their signature ability is a massive +10 to disguise checks. Thats it, they still have to be effected by the usual penalties. Thus a male changeling disguised as a female elf is at a -4 to the check for being a different gender and race.
That makes no sense whatsoever.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm

Sure it does. A changeling has the racial ability to assume a disguise a standard action (I think its standard). Its just a disguise, its a better disguise than anybody can manage just using some Groucho Glasses and a bad wig. But its still a disguise.

The penalties for using the skill are pretty clear.

Disguise (Cha)
Check

Your Disguise check result determines how good the disguise is, and it is opposed by others’ Spot check results. If you don’t draw any attention to yourself, others do not get to make Spot checks. If you come to the attention of people who are suspicious (such as a guard who is watching commoners walking through a city gate), it can be assumed that such observers are taking 10 on their Spot checks.

You get only one Disguise check per use of the skill, even if several people are making Spot checks against it. The Disguise check is made secretly, so that you can’t be sure how good the result is.

If you are impersonating a particular individual, those who know what that person looks like get a bonus on their Spot checks according to the table below. Furthermore, they are automatically considered to be suspicious of you, so opposed checks are always called for.

Usually, an individual makes a Spot check to see through your disguise immediately upon meeting you and each hour thereafter. If you casually meet many different creatures, each for a short time, check once per day or hour, using an average Spot modifier for the group.

See also: epic usages of Disguise.
Action

Creating a disguise requires 1d3×10 minutes of work.
Try Again

Yes. You may try to redo a failed disguise, but once others know that a disguise was attempted, they’ll be more suspicious.
Special

Magic that alters your form, such as alter self, disguise self, polymorph, or shapechange, grants you a +10 bonus on Disguise checks (see the individual spell descriptions). You must succeed on a Disguise check with a +10 bonus to duplicate the appearance of a specific individual using the veil spell. Divination magic that allows people to see through illusions (such as true seeing) does not penetrate a mundane disguise, but it can negate the magical component of a magically enhanced one.

You must make a Disguise check when you cast a simulacrum spell to determine how good the likeness is.

If you have the Deceitful feat, you get a +2 bonus on Disguise checks.
Synergy

If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 bonus on Disguise checks when you know that you’re being observed and you try to act in character.

{table]Disguise|Disguise Check Modifier
Minor details only|+5
Disguised as a different gender|-2
Disguised as a different race|-2
Disguised as a different age category|-2[/table]

{table]Familiarity|Viewer’s Spot Check Bonus
Recognizes on sight|+4
Friends or associates|+6
Close friends|+8
Intimate|+10[/table]

Worira
2008-09-13, 12:32 PM
I'm not arguing that it's RAW legal, I'm arguing that it's nonsense.

Flashlight
2008-09-13, 12:38 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm

Sure it does. A changeling has the racial ability to assume a disguise a standard action (I think its standard). Its just a disguise, its a better disguise than anybody can manage just using some Groucho Glasses and a bad wig. But its still a disguise.

The penalties for using the skill are pretty clear.

Per RAW, yes, but imho you're wrong. Someone just needs to snatch away your Groucho Glasses, and if you move too fast, your wig falls off. Someone who wants to disguise himself as a lizardfolk - good luck - you will have to paint scales on your skin that look real in light and shine like scales etc. For a changeling, this is easy - he REALLY gets those scales, they feel scaly etc (It was already mentioned somewhere here). What is better - a fake wig or a REAL wig? They still can blow your disguise if you behave strangely, but the racial mali make no sense for Changelings, and I would definitly approach my DM with that.

RTGoodman
2008-09-13, 12:39 PM
I'm not arguing that it's RAW legal, I'm arguing that it's nonsense.

Sure it does. Yeah, you make be able to physically alter your appearance, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to get the ears or eyes just right, or be able to correctly imitate correct social interaction with others of your new race, or speak with the right accent or voice pattern, or anything like that. And really, at +10 just for your race, a few -2 penalties (for new race, new sex, and stuff) isn't that bad - especially if you're putting point in Disguise, and I assume if you're playing a Changeling, you'll probably be doing that anyway.

Chronos
2008-09-13, 01:46 PM
For a changeling, this is easy - he REALLY gets those scales, they feel scaly etc (It was already mentioned somewhere here). What is better - a fake wig or a REAL wig?Hence the +10 bonus they get. An untrained changeling trying to impersonate a female elf is going to be significantly better at it than a real female elf is: The changeling still has a net +6 to the skill.