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Flashlight
2008-09-12, 09:17 AM
Hey everybody,

I'm seeking help for some fun optimization. The goal is to create a Changeling Chameleon using the Rogue Racial Substitution level from Races of Eberron and the Factotum from Dungeonscape. The character should be able to back up the other party members as a second arcanist, second healer, main skillmonkey and deal some damage with a bow. This is just theory, I'm not going to play this one soon.

Version 1 - Ranged Combat

Rogue 1 Sub Level - Able Learner (Flaw: Point Blank Shot), - Rapid Shot instead of Sneak Attack (UA Variant Rogue)
Factotum 1
Factotum 2 - Font of Inspiration
Factotum 3
Factotum 4
Chameleon 1 - Font of Inspiration
Chameleon 2 - Changeable Bonus Feat
Chameleon 3
Chameleon 4 - Font of Inspiration
Chameleon 5
Chameleon 6
Chameleon 7 - Font of Inspiration
Factotum 5
Factotum 6
Factotum 7 - Font of Inspiration
Factotum 8
Chameleon 8
Uncanny Trickster 1 - Font of Inspiration
Uncanny Trickster 2*
Uncanny Trickster 3*

*Advances Chameleon

26 Points of Inspiration in the end. That makes many attacks with Int to attack, damage and ac, combined with the +4 from Combat Aptitude and Manyshot from the changable feat and a nice bow makes for some decent damage.

Version 2 - Masked Crazyness Melee (Upgraded)

Rogue Sub 1 - Able Learner (Flaw: Quick Draw), 1d6 SA
Factotum 1
Factotum 2 - Font of Inspiration
Factotum 3
Factotum 4
Master of Masks 1
Chameleon 1 - Combat Expertise
Chameleon 2 - Changeable bonus feat
Chameleon 3
Chameleon 4
Chameleon 5
Chameleon 6 - Font of Inspiration
Chameleon 7
Factotum 5
Factotum 6 - Font of Inspiration
Factotum 7
Factotum 8
Chameleon 8 - Font of Inspiration
Chameleon 9
Chameleon 10

All kinds of cool exotic weaponry, 15 Inspiration Points.

So what do you think? How can I tinker the build to be more suvivable and flavourful - feats, maybe other progression order, other class mix, maybe items that could be vital and so on.

JeminiZero
2008-09-12, 09:22 AM
Whats the Rogue level for? Factotum should provide all the skill goodness you need. If you want the feat, take fighter instead (which comes with better armor/weapon proficiencies).

Or maybe take the Rogue Fighter Feat variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueFe).

Flashlight
2008-09-12, 09:27 AM
The Rogue level gives me tons of skillpoints that I can use to get skills I normally wouldn't have the points for, like Intimidate and Gather Information.

Can one use this Rogue Variant you posted AND the Changeling Sub Level?

RagnaroksChosen
2008-09-12, 10:07 AM
does the changling dub level still have sneak attack?
if it does then Yes.

Darrin
2008-09-12, 10:16 AM
Can one use this Rogue Variant you posted AND the Changeling Sub Level?

I think so. Social Intuition replaces trapfinding. The UA variant replaces sneak attack with fighter bonus feats.

Chronos
2008-09-12, 11:59 AM
There's not much point in taking two Fonts of Inspiration. The benefit increases each time you take it, so you either want to spend as many feats on it as you can, or none at all. It's not worth two feats to gain three inspiration, but it might be worth six feats to gain 21 inspiration.

Flashlight
2008-09-12, 04:19 PM
Good ideas, I edited them into the forst post. Keep coming!

namo
2008-09-12, 04:33 PM
That's a solid Jack-of-All-Trades build. If you have access to Tome of Battle, dipping Warblade or Swordsage can give you some melee ability.

Flashlight
2008-09-12, 05:07 PM
Yeah, I already thought about stopping at Factotum 3 for Brains over Brawn, which is vital, and the go for some Swordsage. My problems with that would be filling the 5 levels before Chameleon, since Swordsage should be dipped later for better moves. Warblade might be better because of the Int focus, but I really can't imagine how to fluff that out:

1. Rogue
2. Factotum
3. Factotum
4. Factotum
5. ?
6. Chameleon

Also, going melee would cause even more MAD than the build already has. I need high Int for Cunning Stuff and Arcane Spellcasting, 17 Dex to qualify for Manyshot, and Wisdom for Divine Spellcasting. I can't gimp Constitution too much, and Charisma is also quite important for the social skills (and UMD). So strenght is the only dump stat.

A possible solution could be a Swashbuckler dip in the 5th level for Weapon Finesse, then Swordsage in the ninth and take the feat that allows one to add Dex to Damage while using Shadow Hand stuff. Then fight with a rapier.
What do you guys think about that one?

Chronos
2008-09-12, 06:58 PM
My problems with that would be filling the 5 levels before Chameleon, since Swordsage should be dipped later for better moves.Decide what maneuvers you want first, and then decide when to take Swordsage based on that. The maneuvers most useful to a particular build are not necessarily the highest-level ones, and if the maneuvers you want happen to be lower level, then go ahead and take the levels early and enjoy your nifty abilities for longer.

And not that it matters, but you have your last feat listed as level 19, not 18.

Moff Chumley
2008-09-12, 07:52 PM
Sounds like a fun build. "Hmm, I want to be an elf wizard today."

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-12, 08:33 PM
Decide what maneuvers you want first, and then decide when to take Swordsage based on that. The maneuvers most useful to a particular build are not necessarily the highest-level ones, and if the maneuvers you want happen to be lower level, then go ahead and take the levels early and enjoy your nifty abilities for longer.

And not that it matters, but you have your last feat listed as level 19, not 18.Yeah, an early dip into SS is perfectly useful. Child of Shadows, Sudden Leap, Shadow Stride, and you've got a viable level entering at 5th.

Flashlight
2008-09-13, 01:36 AM
I don't know all the Moves/Stances by heart, but right, there are many good low-level ones. I thought level 9 (or was it 10?) because then one can select lv.3 Moves. Also, wouldn't the BAB suck too hard if I multiclassed that many medium-BAB classes early? I will edit an alternative build in the first post.

Edit: I think there was a stance that gives +2d6 Sneak Attack. Can I use that to qualify for Daring Outlaw?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-13, 02:26 AM
Fractional BAB variant. I also recommend dipping either at first level if playing from level one or at 9th if staring at a higher level. There's a bunch of good ones for the Swordsage early on, and most scale well with level(an additional 2d6 damage, constant concealment, move as a Swift Action, +5' reach, 2 to-hit rolls, replace a Save with a Skill Check). 3rd level Maneuvers are some of the best, but the first level ones are usually pretty good anyways, so you can't go wrong. Unless you get 2nd level maneuvers, then you suck. :smalltongue:

Flashlight
2008-09-13, 02:36 AM
What is fractional BAB and how do I persuade a DM to allow it if it's so advantageous?

I'm somehow not quite content with the second build yet. Factotum 8 for Cunning Surge seems very cool, but on the other hand, the Swordsage goodness is also great.

Edit: I tried to combine both ideas with gimping Uncanny Trickster. Feedback needed :smallsmile:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-13, 02:51 AM
Partial BAB was proposed in UA, and essentially means that every level in a class with only moderate BAB progression adds .75 to your BAB. Your BAB at each level is rounded down, and therefore you can be a Monk/Rogue/Scout/Swordsage at fourth level with 3 BAB, exactly what you would have if you had single-classed. It's how the rules should have been written in the first place, but...WotC.

FMArthur
2008-09-14, 01:02 AM
What is fractional BAB and how do I persuade a DM to allow it if it's so advantageous?

I'm somehow not quite content with the second build yet. Factotum 8 for Cunning Surge seems very cool, but on the other hand, the Swordsage goodness is also great.

Edit: I tried to combine both ideas with gimping Uncanny Trickster. Feedback needed :smallsmile:

I agree with your uncanny trickster decision. I'm not entirely clear on why you had it in the first place, since you haven't mentioned skill tricks as being significant and Able Learner in combination with factotum and the changeling rogue substitution should net you unquestioned dominance of the skills market in your group anyway.

As for the rest, I'm not sure I agree with your feat selection, particularly your Dex-focus. Two-Weapon Fighting isn't really that great without large amounts of Sneak Attack (the kind that you can use with full attacks without depleting a day's worth of resources). While factotum and chameleon both have Sneak Attack in some form, it is in limited supply (and the Chameleon's is quite bad). If you're going the Font of Inspiration route, you might as well just rely on the factotum's Sneak Attack, which you can use as many IPs as you want to raise the number of dice. Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade (Dex to damage from ToB) pale in comparison to the 11 inspiration points gained from taking Font of Inspiration in their stead, since you can spend IPs to increase your attack rolls and damage by your Int mod, which is really the primary stat even a part-factotum should be exclusively focusing on. There is nothing to be gained by increasing your multiple-ability dependence by throwing Dex in with the Int, Wis, and Str you'll rely on.

Of course, if you want to do the complete Font of Inspiration dance, factotum 20 would be what you want, which it obviously is not. If you're going to replace your 11 IPs with 2 feats, they need to be stronger than that and helpful to your overall build. Personally, I just ignore the whole FoI thing altogether, because it's too good and takes the fun out of feat selection. If you use FoI, it almost seems like a waste if you don't do it all the way (which is why I hate it).

Flashlight
2008-09-14, 02:58 AM
I agree with your uncanny trickster decision. I'm not entirely clear on why you had it in the first place, since you haven't mentioned skill tricks as being significant and Able Learner in combination with factotum and the changeling rogue substitution should net you unquestioned dominance of the skills market in your group anyway.

Personally, I absolutely love the skill tricks, they are like little feats which bring back the fun of selection when Font of Inspiration is more or less the only feat you take.


As for the rest, I'm not sure I agree with your feat selection, particularly your Dex-focus. ... There is nothing to be gained by increasing your multiple-ability dependence by throwing Dex in with the Int, Wis, and Str you'll rely on.

Well, my idea was to use Arcane Aptitude quite often, so I would need a light mithral armor to cast spells, thus I increased the Dex. Also, heavy armor interferes with all that sneaky skills. The only way I could dump Dex and increase Str is lobbing two set of armor along and change them. The two-weapon style istn't optimal, I know (Right now I'm playing a human Factotum going Chameleon and use a Falchion :smallamused: ), but I wanted to try something different.


Personally, I just ignore the whole FoI thing altogether, because it's too good and takes the fun out of feat selection. If you use FoI, it almost seems like a waste if you don't do it all the way (which is why I hate it).

I'm okay with with gaining "only" 10 or 15 Inspiration Points from FoI, because like the Factotum class description proposes, I would use them only if needed, not spam a 26d6 Sneak Attack nova :smallbiggrin:

Btw, your homebrew Chameleon rocks.

FMArthur
2008-09-14, 10:18 AM
Personally, I absolutely love the skill tricks, they are like little feats which bring back the fun of selection when Font of Inspiration is more or less the only feat you take.
I get it. Skill tricks are fun and flavorful if nothing else. :smallsmile:


Well, my idea was to use Arcane Aptitude quite often, so I would need a light mithral armor to cast spells, thus I increased the Dex. Also, heavy armor interferes with all that sneaky skills. The only way I could dump Dex and increase Str is lobbing two set of armor along and change them. The two-weapon style istn't optimal, I know (Right now I'm playing a human Factotum going Chameleon and use a Falchion :smallamused: ), but I wanted to try something different.
I'm just concerned that those specific feats won't be used for much even with a high Dex, but if you wanted to try something different, that certainly is. May I recommend experimenting with TWF when you get your Bonus Feat before locking yourself into it?


I'm okay with with gaining "only" 10 or 15 Inspiration Points from FoI, because like the Factotum class description proposes, I would use them only if needed, not spam a 26d6 Sneak Attack nova :smallbiggrin:
Well, if you're not (ab)using Cunning Strike and Cunning Surge, then I think you're right when you say you don't need so many IPs. If you use 2 per turn to give yourself attack bonuses and defensive bonuses, you should last 7 rounds with your 15 points (you'll probably end up only using 1 a turn).


Btw, your homebrew Chameleon rocks.

Thank you. :smallbiggrin:
Feel free to post any suggestions for it. The thread's kind of empty so I don't know what to think of it.

Person_Man
2008-09-14, 11:42 AM
The Rogue level gives me tons of skillpoints that I can use to get skills I normally wouldn't have the points for, like Intimidate and Gather Information.

Can one use this Rogue Variant you posted AND the Changeling Sub Level?

Factotum have ALL SKILLS as class Skills, and they get 8 Skill points per level. So there is no reason that a Factotum should take levels of Rogue. 1d6 Sneak Attack (3.5 extra damage, when you qualify) is a joke once you get past first level.

And while I love the Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1), its most useful around ECL 6 through 15. After that, its spells stop progressing. So if you're playing a high level campaign, a strait or strait-ish Factotum is a more optimal choice.

In addition, I have yet to find a DM who allows Font of Inspiration. But maybe that's just me.

Anywho, this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) should have everything you need on the Factotum in it. If there's something specific you want to be able to do, let us know.

monty
2008-09-14, 11:58 AM
Factotum have ALL SKILLS as class Skills, and they get 8 Skill points per level. So there is no reason that a Factotum should take levels of Rogue. 1d6 Sneak Attack (3.5 extra damage, when you qualify) is a joke once you get past first level.

Factotum gets 6, and the Changeling Rogue substitution level gets 12 or something ridiculous like that. The point was to take it for more skill points.

FMArthur
2008-09-14, 12:24 PM
The changeling rogue level 1 gets 10 + Int skill points and the ability to take 10 on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive. If this is your first character level, you get 40 + Int*4 skill points, which is nothing to laugh about, especially with the ability to take 10 on your social skills when you're low-level, where the dice usually matter more than your bonuses.

monty
2008-09-14, 02:40 PM
Ok, 10's not quite as ridiculous as 12, but at first level, that's still 8 points more than a regular rogue and 16 more than Factotum. Along with the other stuff, that's a pretty good deal for one level.

monty
2008-09-14, 03:27 PM
Also, how about the Nymph's Kiss feat from BoED? 1 extra skill point per level and +2 to all Cha-based checks is probably worth more to your build than a few extra inspiration.

Flashlight
2008-09-17, 02:19 AM
Anywho, this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) should have everything you need on the Factotum in it. If there's something specific you want to be able to do, let us know.

This is absolutely awesome. I thought Master of Masks requires spellcasting since it advances it. Perfectly fits the chameleon theme, too.

Does Factotum qualify for Obtain Familiar, although it's spellcasting are Spell-like Abilities?


Also, how about the Nymph's Kiss feat from BoED? 1 extra skill point per level and +2 to all Cha-based checks is probably worth more to your build than a few extra inspiration.

It definitely would be, but that feat is really up to the DM, since it's very powerful. I would ask the DM if it was allowed, though. Thanks.

Edit: Can Illumians from Races of Destiny qualify for Able Learner? As far as I read the book, their personality is great for multi-threat characters.

Person_Man
2008-09-17, 08:47 AM
This is absolutely awesome. I thought Master of Masks requires spellcasting since it advances it. Perfectly fits the chameleon theme, too.

Master of Masks has some Skill requirements, and that's it. A Rogue or Factotum should have no trouble entering it. The class is posted online for free. Just read the thread I posted for details.



Does Factotum qualify for Obtain Familiar, although it's spellcasting are Spell-like Abilities?

Yes. Obtain Familiar requires "arcane caster level 3rd." Although your spells are actually spell like abilities, you have an arcane caster level, and the description specifically states that you can modify them with metamagic feats, so its doubtful anyone would deny you a familiar. If they do, ask if you can use an Item Familiar, which everyone qualifies for.



Edit: Can Illumians from Races of Destiny qualify for Able Learner? As far as I read the book, their personality is great for multi-threat characters.

No. Able Learner is limited to humans and doppelganger. And why would you need Able Learner? Again, Factotum get ALL SKILLS as class Skills, and Int should be your highest stat. Any Skill problem is solved by taking more levels of Factotum.


Ok, 10's not quite as ridiculous as 12, but at first level, that's still 8 points more than a regular rogue and 16 more than Factotum. Along with the other stuff, that's a pretty good deal for one level.

OK, so I was incorrect about the exact number of Skill points as well, so I apologize. But is screwing up your access to higher level spells and sweet sweet Factotum or Chameleon abilities really worth 16 Skill points? With 6 Skill points and 10 Int, you can max out 10 Skills. I would say that you need Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device, and Use Psionic Device. You have a few points to spread around however you like, and you can take Nymph's Kiss for more. The stealth Skills can be more easily handled by Invisibility and Silence. Disable Device can be handled by buying Wand of Summon Monster I. Everything else seems so situational that you can handle it with magic, or you can just ask some other party member invest in Forgery.

I won't argue the point farther. But it seems that with careful preparation, you could do anything that someone with maxed out Skills can do by other means. So its only worth investing in the Skill if you need it as a requirement, or use it so often that the cost of the alternative would be prohibitive.

Flashlight
2008-09-17, 10:35 AM
No. Able Learner is limited to humans and doppelganger. And why would you need Able Learner? Again, Factotum get ALL SKILLS as class Skills, and Int should be your highest stat. Any Skill problem is solved by taking more levels of Factotum.

Able Learner is a prerequisite for Chameleon. Well, the choices are very limited then :smallfrown:


OK, so I was incorrect about the exact number of Skill points as well, so I apologize. But is screwing up your access to higher level spells and sweet sweet Factotum or Chameleon abilities really worth 16 Skill points?

You're right actually. Taking Human over Changeling and go straight Factotum would mean 12 skill points less at character creation (Humans get +1 skills per level), but the Human will match the Changeling's skill point total at level 12, and then have more skills... but nearly all my other Characters are Humans, and I wanted to try something different.

Well, right now, a Human seems so much better.


The stealth Skills can be more easily handled by Invisibility and Silence. Disable Device can be handled by buying Wand of Summon Monster I.

Noticing an invisible person is only DC20 Spot. Very unreliable compared with the modifiers you can get on hide. Plus, hide and move silently even bypass True Seeing. Summon Monster I only triggers simple floor traps, which might even be a bad idea sometimes if you don't want to alert the whole dungeon.

FMArthur
2008-09-17, 04:23 PM
Able Learner is a prerequisite for Chameleon. Well, the choices are very limited then :smallfrown: Being a Human or Doppleganger (or Changeling) is required by the PrC, anyway. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b)


Noticing an invisible person is only DC20 Spot. Very unreliable compared with the modifiers you can get on hide. Plus, hide and move silently even bypass True Seeing.

Yeah, some of the modifiers you can get on hide are ridiculous. Invisibility, for example, grants a +40 bonus on hide checks while standing still, and +20 while moving. :smalltongue: