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JeminiZero
2008-09-12, 10:42 PM
So I am applying for Krimm Blackleaf's undead campaign. And I am submitting a swordsage. My swordsage has unarmed strike, but is not actually a monk, so unarmed does a cruddy 1d3 damage, and he doesn't have monk weapon proficiencies.

Anyhow, this being an undead campaign, I am aiming to make my primary weapon a magic silver bludgeoning weapon. This way it bypasses the DR of skellies, vampires, liches and nightshades, probably the more dangerous corporeal undead.

There is just one problem. I am taking Shadowblade (add Dex bonus to damage when using Shadowhand preferred weapons) but that only applies to a limited list of weapons: Dagger, Sai, Siangham, Shortsword, spiked chain, unarmed strike.

Among this list, the only bludgeoning weapon my swordsage is proficient with is unarmed, so using silver gauntlets, he deals 1d3-1 = 0.5 base damage, which is really bad. So my question is, are there any other weapons out there that count as unarmed and have better base damage.

TL;DR: Need bludgeoning weapon that counts as unarmed strike, with higher base damage than 1d3.

Behold_the_Void
2008-09-12, 10:45 PM
Aren't you adding your Dex mod to damage? Really, ramping that up should be about all you need. The damage die doesn't really effect all that much, overall.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-12, 10:51 PM
Take the Unarmed Swordsage variant. Lose armor, gain Unarmed Damage like a Monk of your class level.

JeminiZero
2008-09-12, 10:55 PM
Aren't you adding your Dex mod to damage? Really, ramping that up should be about all you need. The damage die doesn't really effect all that much, overall.

Be that as it may, doing more damage is awlays good, especially if it just relies on finding an alternative weapon, for a few more gold.


Take the Unarmed Swordsage variant. Lose armor, gain Unarmed Damage like a Monk of your class level.

Where may this be found?

arguskos
2008-09-12, 10:57 PM
If you've got the feat to spare, I'd suggest you grab Exotic Weap Prof (sai) and run with it. Or a level in monk, but I wouldn't blame you if you turn that one down.

-argus

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-12, 10:59 PM
Unarmed Variant Swordsage is in the Adaptation section. It's widely accepted on these boards as both balanced and awesome, you should have no trouble getting it approved.

Also, shame on you Arguskos. If you're burning a feat, might as well burn it on something good. EWP(Spiked Chain), for instance.

arguskos
2008-09-12, 11:00 PM
Hey, he wanted a bludgeoning weapon! :smalltongue: I agree, Spiked Chain > than the whole Shadow Hand weapon list, but Spiked Chain =/= Bludgeoning.

Also, sais are epic and awesome. No one ever uses them (mostly cause there's better stuff), so if he can, he should (cause it would be awesome).

-argus

tyckspoon
2008-09-12, 11:04 PM
You could also take the Superior Unarmed Strike feat (same book), which gives you a monk-like unarmed strike damage progression based on your HD. But as long as your concept is an unarmed Swordsage.. you may as well see if you can use the Unarmed Swordsage variant. :smalltongue:

JeminiZero
2008-09-12, 11:13 PM
Unarmed Variant Swordsage is in the Adaptation section. It's widely accepted on these boards as both balanced and awesome, you should have no trouble getting it approved.


Hmm... interesting. It says you lose light armored proficiency, but not your wis bonus to AC in light armor. So if you splash another class that grants light armor, you gain monk damage AND light armor. :smallamused:

olentu
2008-09-12, 11:25 PM
I believe that if you wear armor that has no armor check penalty such as a mithril chain shirt there is no penalty for being nonproficient.

monty
2008-09-12, 11:29 PM
I believe that if you wear armor that has no armor check penalty such as a mithril chain shirt there is no penalty for being nonproficient.

Well, there is a penalty, technically. It's just that the penalty is 0.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficienc y

A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-12, 11:30 PM
I believe that if you wear armor that has no armor check penalty such as a mithril chain shirt there is no penalty for being nonproficient.That's right, but cheesy. Very, very cheesy. i like to take it as intended and say that you can't wear armor without losing your abilities, which seems to be how it was written. But this is an optimizers board, so do as you will. Just know that Pun-Pun will not be amused.

olentu
2008-09-12, 11:34 PM
Actually if I am remembering this correctly, since I am away from my books, the swordsage wisdom to AC does not work unarmored only in light armor.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-12, 11:40 PM
Actually if I am remembering this correctly, since I am away from my books, the swordsage wisdom to AC does not work unarmored only in light armor.RAW that is correct, but the wording in the Adaptation section is vague. Ask your DM. RAI should trump RAW here, IMHO, just because there is so little RAW to work with.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-09-12, 11:43 PM
Go Unarmed Swordsage and stock up on Mountain Hammers. Those ignore DR, so they should work.

Or better yet, see if you can convince your GM to let you get an Amulet of Mighty fists +1 enchanted with Metalline and that one +1 enchantment that automatically aligns your weapon to damage your target the most. Forgot what it was called. "Sure striking"?

Edit- Or if that doesn't work, check out Scoprion Kama's- They're weapons that let you use your unarmed attack damage. Just grab a set of +1 silver those and that should work brilliantly too.

ocato
2008-09-12, 11:46 PM
Maybe I'm missing something but wouldn't an amulet of mighty fists (maybe with some special house-rule to silver them as well as magic them) and Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB) handle this? Wear armor, maybe grab a monk's belt and you're golden.

Xyk
2008-09-13, 12:11 AM
Or you could dip your hand in molten silver and let it harden. might hurt a bit.

JeminiZero
2008-09-13, 12:12 AM
Is all that necessary? Doesn't Monk bonus damage apply when wearing gauntlets?

arguskos
2008-09-13, 12:13 AM
Or you could dip your hand in molten silver and let it harden. might hurt a bit.
Would be badass. I approve and second. :smallcool:

(NOTE: you may wish to do some other body parts too, just in case. Maybe the tops of your knees or some such.)

-argus

Krimm_Blackleaf
2008-09-13, 12:13 AM
You could take unarmed strike and improved unarmed strike, that ramps up your damage to almost monk-levels, and with Dex to damage it's way good.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-13, 12:14 AM
Is all that necessary? Doesn't Monk bonus damage apply when wearing gauntlets?He's a Swordsage, not a Monk, and therefore deals almost no damage when unarmed.

ocato
2008-09-13, 12:17 AM
Superior Unarmed Strike from ToB adds a Monk-esq Unarmed Strike progression. No variants required.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2008-09-13, 12:17 AM
Superior Unarmed Strike from ToB adds a Monk-esq Unarmed Strike progression. No variants required.

Yes, that's the name.

JeminiZero
2008-09-13, 01:09 AM
He's a Swordsage, not a Monk, and therefore deals almost no damage when unarmed.

Right. What I meant was, if I used the unarmed swordsage variant and gained monk bonus unarmed damage, would the bonus damage still apply if the monk was using gauntlets (which can made of silver and enchanted to overcome DR).


You could take unarmed strike and improved unarmed strike, that ramps up your damage to almost monk-levels, and with Dex to damage it's way good.

Not enough feats for that unfortunately.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-13, 01:14 AM
Right. What I meant was, if I used the unarmed swordsage variant and gained monk bonus unarmed damage, would the bonus damage still apply if the monk was using gauntlets (which can made of silver and enchanted to overcome DR).Yep. Gauntlets deal damage=to the user's unarmed damage.

JeminiZero
2008-09-13, 01:51 AM
OK, thanks for the help guys. I've converted him into an unarmed swordsage with silver gauntlets.

Triaxx
2008-09-13, 05:55 AM
Don't forget, anything you can hit them with is a weapon when it comes to unarmed strikes so a silver helmet and silver boots are also useful. If the DM asks, just tell him they should be treated as gauntlets. IE use your unarmed damage. Nothing more fun that head butting the vampire lord. Preferrably in the middle of his speech.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2008-09-13, 05:59 AM
Don't forget, anything you can hit them with is a weapon when it comes to unarmed strikes so a silver helmet and silver boots are also useful. If the DM asks, just tell him they should be treated as gauntlets. IE use your unarmed damage. Nothing more fun that head butting the vampire lord. Preferrably in the middle of his speech.

I refuse to have my vampires head-butted mid-speech, or ever.

JeminiZero
2008-09-13, 07:42 AM
I refuse to have my vampires head-butted mid-speech, or ever.

You have nothing to fear, my swordsage's head slot is reserved for a hat of disguise.

Also, since this is a PbP game, the vampire gets to complete his villainous monologue before we roll for initiative.