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Avor
2008-09-13, 12:40 AM
Is there a feat that allows you to make something a class skill?

Sorry for the quick question.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-13, 12:43 AM
Depends on the skill. ToB has a few, there's the Apprentice feats in DMG II which are fine after level 6, and a few others. Tell us more and we'll help.

Avor
2008-09-13, 12:58 AM
Depends on the skill. ToB has a few, there's the Apprentice feats in DMG II which are fine after level 6, and a few others. Tell us more and we'll help.

Im planning out a NPC powerhouse. A friend of mine loves the swashbuckler class too much. Two weapons, +Str mod, +Int mod. Not only is he hard to hit, weighed down less, etc but can out damage a normal heavy fighterl

He is baseing his character on ome stupid duel scimitar wielding drow, I hate it. I see it as some spaz monkey character running in swinging two weapons around.

I am makeing a swashbuckler/duelist, it will use the stupid insightful strike, but in the end will use one weapon and out damage him. But the only snag is that I need 3 ranks in preform.

I ended up with cancer and will probly never play D&D with him again, but I like the NPC, hell, I might use it. Its a good build for a realy classy yet powerful swordsman, like a navy captain or lors.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-13, 01:02 AM
For only 3 ranks I wouldn't worry about a feat to make it a skill, just take the feat in XPH that gives you 5 bonus skill points and you're good to go. Alternatively, there's the Apprentice feats, though they have odd flavor. There's one that makes Perform a class skill, I'm sure.

Avor
2008-09-13, 01:05 AM
For only 3 ranks I wouldn't worry about a feat to make it a skill, just take the feat in XPH that gives you 5 bonus skill points and you're good to go. Alternatively, there's the Apprentice feats, though they have odd flavor. There's one that makes Perform a class skill, I'm sure.

XPH? What is that?

Dhavaer
2008-09-13, 01:08 AM
XPH? What is that?

Expanded Psionics Handbook.

arguskos
2008-09-13, 01:09 AM
Expanded Psionics Handbook.

Frikking red-haired ninjas... always pwnin' my posts...

-argus

MeklorIlavator
2008-09-13, 01:11 AM
There's also the Open Minded feat from the Complete Adventurer.

Avor
2008-09-13, 01:15 AM
Thank you.

Avor
2008-09-13, 01:26 AM
Open Minded feat = Fail, it says spend as normal.

Reinboom
2008-09-13, 01:27 AM
Skill Knowledge from Unearthed Arcana

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/alternativeSkillSystems.htm#skillKnowledge

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-13, 01:30 AM
Open Minded feat = Fail, it says spend as normal.Yes, but with those 5 points and one of your normal points, it gets you up to 3 ranks in Perform. Unless you need the ranks before level 3, I don't see the problem. It actually takes less points than just getting it as a class skill would.

Stupendous_Man
2008-09-13, 01:40 AM
I am makeing a swashbuckler/duelist, it will use the stupid insightful strike, but in the end will use one weapon and out damage him. But the only snag is that I need 3 ranks in preform.


Human paragon?

Chronos
2008-09-13, 01:46 AM
Yes, but with those 5 points and one of your normal points, it gets you up to 3 ranks in Perform. Unless you need the ranks before level 3, I don't see the problem. It actually takes less points than just getting it as a class skill would.Right, with a feat to make it a class skill, you'd spend on feat and three skill points to get three ranks. With Open Minded, you spend one feat and one skill point to get three ranks. There's no rule that says you can't take cross-class skill ranks.

Oh, and Open Minded is the same feat in both XPH and CAdv. They just reprinted it.

Douglas
2008-09-13, 01:47 AM
As this character build is obviously designed for high intelligence, I rather doubt you will be unable to spare a few skill points from your main skills. It is not possible to satisfy the BAB prereq for Duelist before level 6 anyway, and by that point your cross-class skill ranks cap will be 4.5. Just spend 6 skill points cross-class. I see no need to spend a feat on this.

Avor
2008-09-13, 02:25 AM
Wait a seconnd, I can just put points in as a cross-class skill?

SON OF!

Douglas
2008-09-13, 03:37 AM
It costs twice as many skill points as for in-class skills and the max ranks is half as high, but yes.

Avor
2008-09-13, 03:53 AM
It costs twice as many skill points as for in-class skills and the max ranks is half as high, but yes.

I know my cancer took me out of the mix for the last 6 week, but dang. I feel like a noob.

monty
2008-09-13, 01:51 PM
Take Able Learner and a 1-level dip into Factotum. Now you have all skills forever!

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-13, 02:12 PM
How the heck is Swashbuckler or Swashbuckler/Duelist a damage build? They're AC builds. With Robilar's Gambit you can make an unhittable AoO machine at higher levels, but you are emphatically not a damage-dealer. (Except, possibly, by sheer number of AoOs, provided your enemy is dumb enough to keep attacking.) Any fighter with a two-handed weapon and Power Attack is going to far out-damage you - especially if you're TWFing.

Avor
2008-09-13, 05:33 PM
How the heck is Swashbuckler or Swashbuckler/Duelist a damage build?

Insightful strike, add INT bonus if any to damage.

So, fighter bob with a STR of 18 with a great sword will do 2d6+6 damage, not bad for level 3

But a swashbuckler with say 15 STR and 16 INT, two rapiers or scimitars, primary hand 1d6+2+3, off hand 1d6+1+3. 3 extra damage, not much, but there it is at level 3. Not only am I doing moredamage, I got my in 18 DEX and with the needed INT I get eveb more skill points. (class gives 4 per level)


Robilar's Gambit

What's that and what book?

ericgrau
2008-09-13, 05:37 PM
All you need to beat his character (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html) (OotS comic)

tyckspoon
2008-09-13, 05:48 PM
But a swashbuckler with say 15 STR and 16 INT, two rapiers or scimitars, primary hand 1d6+2+3, off hand 1d6+1+3. 3 extra damage, not much, but there it is at level 3. Not only am I doing moredamage, I got my in 18 DEX and with the needed INT I get eveb more skill points. (class gives 4 per level)


Um. What's your to-hit? Rapiers are finessable, but they are still *not* light weapons.. you're at a -4 trying to dual-wield them, in the absence of other feats or class features (ie, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting or Dervish for using scimitars). That negates your use of Weapon Finesse to-hit. And your damage total, assuming both weapons hit, is.. 2d6 + 9. Fighter Bob is at 2d6+6 base.. now, let's have him use Power Attack for the same penalty you're taking by going TWF (well, close to it, at least- he can only burn up to his BAB, so 3 points.) -3 to hit, +6 to damage. 2d6+12: Outdamaging you at less hit penalty.

Avor
2008-09-13, 08:03 PM
Um. What's your to-hit?.

Point taken, but as you level up TWF becomes more efffient, like monks furry of blows.

The other thing to consider is low level magic weapons, two +1 flameing scimitars costs 8,000 gold each, while to get the same bonus, +2 2d6 elemental damage, a +4 eqivilent weapon costs 32,000.

Eldariel
2008-09-13, 08:25 PM
Actually, a +1 double elemental weapon would be quite close to as efficient and cost 2000 more. And that is without mentioning the fact that you could pick up something like a Holy weapon for +2 instead (a +2 ability tends to be more powerful than two +1 abilities...as long as you aren't buying elemental bursts or something - and it gets better as things get more expensive), allowing you to penetrate many forms of Damage Reduction that otherwise cause trouble (eating up actions to use Bless Weapon/similar, or cut into your efficiency relevantly) and being very rarely "resisted" (only when fighting natural foes/mislead good guys).

Also, the fact that Two-Weapon Fighting costs you more feats as you go up and never gains the 4th attack puts it further behind. And that is before picking up Power Attack-enhancing feats like Shock Trooper and Leap Attack (and that you need to have high Dex to even pick up the TWF feats). Two-Weapon Fighting would be about equal to Two-Handed Fighting if it only cost one feat like Two-Handed Fighting does (Power Attack). The -2 penalty and increased equipment cost would probably still put it slightly behind though (remember, to deal more damage than a THFer, you need to hit with BOTH weapons - your average damage is slightly lower, but more consistent. Unfortunately, there's the -2/-4 still that still favors THFer).

Koalita
2008-09-13, 08:33 PM
TWF gets more damage (to a respectable ammount) with enough wealth spent on weapons. Maybe add some extras like sneak attack. And full attacking. Then you can have your +1 flaming/frost/lightning/sonic weapon enchanted with greater magic weapon for a +5 hitting for +5+4d6 damage (is there a sonic mod?) which is meaningful if you are doing 3 more attacks than the 2 hander who hits for 2d6+50 per hit :P

Cainen
2008-09-13, 08:37 PM
Still nothing compared to a Power Attack build, so...

Avor
2008-09-13, 08:53 PM
Hardly nothing, you can see that the swashbuckler cam deal out signifigant damage, yet maintain a high Dex nature(not drowning from armour). Where they have INT, speed and skill points, they lack CON.

Eldariel
2008-09-13, 08:59 PM
Hardly nothing, you can see that the swashbuckler cam deal out signifigant damage, yet maintain a high Dex nature(not drowning from armour). Where they have INT, speed and skill points, they lack CON.

What's the problem here though? If a melee character doesn't have Con, he's dead. Therefore, I'd consider dedicated TWF Swashbucklers dead meat. And still get outdamaged by Raging THF Power Attack Barbarian, or just THF Power Attack Fighter (or Dungeon Crasher or Precision build...). I just can't see a Swashbuckler outdoing decently built non-Swashbuckler THFers. Then there's also the fact that their attacks are precision damage and thus about half the monsters (Undead...) are totally immune to that section. And you have to enhance two weapons - gl against DR/Good opponent before you can afford two Holy weapons.

Avor
2008-09-13, 09:05 PM
I guess it depends on how your party makes it past damage. You don't need a super CON if you have the AC, reflex save and skills needed

Eldariel
2008-09-13, 09:14 PM
Without Con, you're extremely vulnerable to Power Words of all kinds and the inevitable 20s/1s that get rolled around. Also, it means your Fort-saves suffer, and failing a Fort-save tends to be a very bad thing™. Overall, an adventurer without Fort is like to become a dead adventurer pretty quick. Also, without Evasion, the ½ damages are going to get him fairly quick.

Avor
2008-09-13, 09:38 PM
A common encounter, The party is walking along the od kolbold cave. The cave floor becomes wooden planks. The boards break, sending the party to the undead below. The nimble fighter makes the ref save and tumble check, landing on his feet ready to fight. The heavy fighter is face down in the dirt wondering how much fall damage is coming his way.

Also, swashbucklers get full fort save progression. Low CON is a shame, but their base is good enough.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-13, 09:51 PM
Insightful strike, add INT bonus if any to damage.

So, fighter bob with a STR of 18 with a great sword will do 2d6+6 damage, not bad for level 3

But a swashbuckler with say 15 STR and 16 INT, two rapiers or scimitars, primary hand 1d6+2+3, off hand 1d6+1+3. 3 extra damage, not much, but there it is at level 3. Not only am I doing moredamage, I got my in 18 DEX and with the needed INT I get eveb more skill points. (class gives 4 per level)



What's that and what book?

You're ignoring probabilities. Attack bonus is critical in determining average damage.

To start with, the Fighter needs one stat high - Strength. The Swashbuckler needs Strength, Intelligence, and Dexterity, what with weapon Finesse Finesse.

The Fighter is hitting way more reliably - the difference in his favor is at least +2, assuming Str and Dex are equal between them. If that +2 is spent on Power Attack, the Fighter is dealing 2d6+10 damage with an attack bonus of +X, and the Swashbuckler is dealing 1d6+5 at +X and 1d6+4 at +X. (and if he's using two rapiers or scimitars, his attack bonus is two lower).

At an AB of, say, +7 each (+3 BAB, +4 Str/Dex), against AC, say, 18, the Fighter is dealing 17x0.5=8.5 damage per blow on average, and the Swashbuckler is dealing (8.5x0.5)+(7.5x0.5)=8. As levels go up, the fighter will be dealing more and more, and he's expending less feats on TWF and the like. Insightful strike is most emphatically not enough bonus damage to make TWF worth it. Full rogue sneak attack would be (which is why Rogue/Swashbucklers with the feat from Complete Scoundrel that synergizes the two classes is nice).

In summary, the reason you think Swashbucklers deal a lot of damage is probably because you haven't done the math on Power Attacking two-handed-weapon Fighters. If you add stuff from Complete Warrior (where the Swashbuckler class is from) - such as Shock Trooper and Combat Brute and whatnot - they transcend onto another level entirely, dealing a hundred or more points of damage per attack.

Robilar's Gambit is from PHB2, and it lets a twinked-out AC-focused Swashbuckler/Fighter/Duelist/Scout with AC 70+ by level 20 (completely within WBL) become an AoO monster - he takes a -4 penalty to AC, gets an AoO every time he's attacked (or is that missed?), and is still completely unhittable. With Uncanny Dodge from the Scout levels, his Flat-footed AC is no lower, and his Touch AC is in the 60s (since he only bracers of armor and an amulet of natural armor for actual armor).

His attacks will deal damage in the 30s, which isn't all that impressive, but may be enough to keep enemies vaguely interested - and PA is an option, fortunately. (His Fort and Will end up ****e, though, and his HP are nothing to envy. I haven't ever actually run the build at high levels, so I don't know how it really holds up - and with 4E, I likely never will.)

And the only reason he TWFs is because he's using Greater Two-Weapon Defense to boost his AC, because he's constantly fighting defensively (netting something like a 1:4 return on the lost attack bonus) and holding a defending dagger in his off hand, which is hardly ever used to attack (in order to retain precise strike damage on the rapier).

Eldariel
2008-09-13, 09:53 PM
A common encounter, The party is walking along the od kolbold cave. The cave floor becomes wooden planks. The boards break, sending the party to the undead below. The nimble fighter makes the ref save and tumble check, landing on his feet ready to fight. The heavy fighter is face down in the dirt wondering how much fall damage is coming his way.

First of all: How is that a common encounter? How often does a party really stumble upon terrain that does not hold under them (what was the Rogue doing? What about the Ranger or anyone with Search/Knowledge (Engineering)/Knowledge (Architecture)/anything of the sort?) and then walk over it anyways? That just seems dumb. Why didn't the Heavy Fighter fly? Why not use rope? And how does the Swashbuckler hope to do anything against a horde of undead all immune to about a third of his damage?

Second: How does this actually help the case of Swashbuckler outdamaging a Fighter? Inconveniences happen to any character - the 10 Con Swashbuckler is going to have serious issues in harsh conditions ("Throw a Fort-save! Throw a Fort-save! Repeat ad nauseum!") with 10-20% less than Fighters to make each save. He's also going to be much more vulnerable to poisons, disease, etc. than a normal Fighter. Reflex-saves are simply less important than Fort-saves since Fort-saves generally lead to death or near-death while Reflex-saves can be usually replaced by just having enough HP to take the hits. This is all besides the point though.

Third: If you don't have HP, how does a Swashbuckler hope to live against high level outsiders who seem to, as a rule, have Power Word: Stun? What about all the precision-immune opponents? I just don't see the problem here - Swashbuckler is already worse than a straight Fighter in combat and has to devote more resources to be even that good at it to boot. Both have their share of sitiuations where their class benefits serve them for better survival, but even then, Fort-saves tend to be more important than Ref-saves and without Evasion, even succeeding Ref-saves is of little value (especially with low HP).


Also, swashbucklers get full fort save progression. Low CON is a shame, but their base is good enough.

Con is the one stat no character can afford to really dump. HP is too universally important. There's always someone who hits you and there's always the chance of natural 20s/1s and there's always the threat of on-going damage/Power Words/things that don't allow defenses and deal HP damage.

tyckspoon
2008-09-13, 10:14 PM
The heavy fighter is face down in the dirt wondering how much fall damage is coming his way.
.

Probably about 2d6. You have to fall a really long way for falling damage to be much of a threat to a high-Con character.

monty
2008-09-13, 10:45 PM
Con is the one stat no character can afford to really dump. HP is too universally important. There's always someone who hits you and there's always the chance of natural 20s/1s and there's always the threat of on-going damage/Power Words/things that don't allow defenses and deal HP damage.

Undead and constructs

Beyond that, I agree with you though.

Avor
2008-09-13, 11:24 PM
I dont feel like getting bogged down in a fight.

Night.

Knaight
2008-09-14, 12:58 AM
Undead and constructs

Beyond that, I agree with you though.

d12 and lots of hit dice for their CR, and damage reduction, spell resistance, and bonus hit points for being big on a d10. But yeah, you need constitution, and while the d10 helps alleviate some of it, the lack of constitution can still be an issue.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-14, 07:31 AM
I dont feel like getting bogged down in a fight.

That's a smart choice, considering mathematics disagrees with you.

A TWFing rogue will always outdamage a TWFing swashbuckler, and a THWing fighter will do it too. Just the fact that you need to raise three ability scores instead of one to improve your attacks is a huge disadvantage. (I found it a real chore to get Int 30 in my build, and you need that by Duelist 10. And even then the fighter will be dealing way more base damage.)