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monty
2008-09-13, 12:52 PM
My DM apparently thought it would be "fun" to run ToH; I guess he's more sadistic than I thought. The problem is that most of the rest of the players are still fairly new - most have been playing D&D for less than a year (as infrequently as we meet, that's even less than it seems), and only one actually owns a book (he only has the PHB). So, I will probably need to pick up the slack.

My questions to you: if you could only have one optimized character in ToH, what would it be? And how would it be best optimized? Don't worry too much about over-cheesing; it needs to be something that's practically capable of taking on the dungeon by itself, and I can always tone it down if necessary.

The Glyphstone
2008-09-13, 12:55 PM
Are you allowed Leadership? I can see being a Psion/Thrallherd to be quite useful in the ToH - an infinite supply of utterly loyal mobile trap detectorsfollowers that constantly replenishes itself within 24 hours.

SurlySeraph
2008-09-13, 12:58 PM
There are several approaches.

The first is the "Cope with the undead" approach. Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor. Nuke them.

The second is the "Cope with the traps, which are far more dangerous anyway" approach. Rogue with the highest possible Search and Disable Device skills. No, higher than that.

The third is the "Avoid the whole damn thing" approach. Sorceror (for more spells) or Wizard (for Batman) that casts Fly and never touches any surface in the entire tomb, and nukes every room before entering. This is probably the best if you're seriously thinking of trying to do this solo.

monty
2008-09-13, 01:03 PM
I'm not actually planning to do this solo, it's just that I'll need to be at least pretty good at everything to make up for the other players' lack of optimization ability. My first thought was wizard, but I thought there might be something better.

As for the trapfinding fodder safety precaution uh...allies, I was thinking of taking that one elemental summoning reserve feat.

ocato
2008-09-13, 01:13 PM
Since you are most likely trying to lead your friends to victory and not make them entirely useless I would suggest something Batman-y but not quite: The Artificer. I like to think of the Artificer as being very batman esq. Stock up on any weak/useless Homunculi (trapspringers) that you can make without using too much XP (Warforged Racial Sub level 4 helps buckets with that) and/or just uber-max your search/disable device checks as a rogue would. Unlike the rogue, you'll be willing to pop a shatteringly high intellect without feeling too much burn from lower other stats. If it looks really bad, and you have a feeling your search roll isn't backing you up on, send your dumb little pottery-monster thing to waddle around until it gets kersploded.

A wand of Detect Secret Doors and Find Traps won't hurt (half your level added to search for a L2 Wand? Why not?) Make sure to buff your Search/Disable with the Skill enhancement Infusion, which is a circumstance bonus, so you can also make goggles of competence bonus to search and gloves of competence bonus to disable if you like.

Set up whatever wands you think are right for fighting, metamagic them up and Blastificer your way through undead and the like as necessary. Don't be shy about having a good and plenty stash of wands/scrolls of disintegrate, detect undead, fly, feather fall, energy resistance, and anything that buff's saves (check the cleric list from the spell compendium for some good'ns). If they'll stack, outfit people in the party with cloaks of resistance and anything else you think will save their butts.

I'd consider Warforged (immune to poison, Racial Sub levels in Races of Eberron) or Dwarf (Bonus to poison saves and magic saves) probably, with Halfling on the table as well (bonus to saves, bonus to dex= bonus to reflex).

I'd view your character as the guide or the scout. When the undead pour in, back off to your teammates and pray to goodness they don't start throwing undead into wall-panels or something.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-09-13, 01:17 PM
Go for a Factotum. That way you can deal with traps AND turn the undead, and you get arcane spellcasting. Go Chameleon for your PRC and you should be able to cover any base.

chiasaur11
2008-09-13, 01:32 PM
Kobold paladin. With Manipulate form.

He pulls a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That's* the *Chicago* way!

monty
2008-09-13, 01:34 PM
Since you are most likely trying to lead your friends to victory and not make them entirely useless

I'm not trying to make them useless so much as provide backup. I'm expecting them to screw things up a lot, so I'll need to be able to come to the rescue in just about any situation that could come up.

Chronos
2008-09-13, 01:39 PM
Definitely go with Factotum in some combination. A factotum is the only character who really stands a chance against the overpowered traps in the Tomb. You want at least three levels, to get Brains over Brawn-- Since the worst things in the Tomb are traps, not monsters, extra standard actions won't help as much, so you probably don't need to take it to level 8.

For the full build, I'd recommend something like factotum 3/incarnate 1/umbral disciple 3/uncanny trickster 3. That'll give you Int to all your important skills, +3 to each skill check 1/day, another +8 to Disable Device from Theft Gloves, and Hide in Plain Sight. Make Int your highest priority, followed by Dex and Con.

Bayar
2008-09-13, 01:45 PM
Umm...warlock with spider climb and Shatter ?

Keld Denar
2008-09-13, 01:46 PM
You could cover both roles with an arcane rogue type character. Something like a human rogue1/conjourer5/USS10/AT4. Definitely take the Spontanious Divination ACF from Complete Champion, as this will allow you to drop prepared spells for divinations, because you never know when you'll need extra detect X or clairvoiance or anything like that. Max out Search and Disable Device, and concentrate primarily on utility spells.

Ent
2008-09-13, 02:43 PM
This has inspired me to run the Tomb.

Are the squares on the ToH map 10x10'?

Project_Mayhem
2008-09-13, 02:49 PM
I personally think the older versions of the tomb are better. More lethal anyhow

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-13, 02:58 PM
I personally think the older versions of the tomb are better. More lethal anyhow

That's because, before 3e, the only way you could find a trap is if you figured out how the DM hid it. Same with secret doors, actually - a fine game of Zork if I've ever played one :smallwink:

Project_Mayhem
2008-09-13, 03:05 PM
That's because, before 3e, the only way you could find a trap is if you figured out how the DM hid it. Same with secret doors, actually - a fine game of Zork if I've ever played one

Yeah thats basically it. 3e is generally more forgiving and 'fair' than the older versions. Tomb of Horrors as intended suits the older style more.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-13, 03:11 PM
Yeah thats basically it. 3e is generally more forgiving and 'fair' than the older versions. Tomb of Horrors as intended suits the older style more.

Very true. Of course, the ultimate in "old school" gaming has to be Hackmaster. A different fireball at every level and it makes no bones about being a character-killing system.

monty
2008-09-13, 03:28 PM
All right, so I'm thinking about going with either Batman or some Factotum-based build, depending on what the rest of the group does. Anything else I should seriously consider?

Jack_Simth
2008-09-13, 05:48 PM
I'm not actually planning to do this solo, it's just that I'll need to be at least pretty good at everything to make up for the other players' lack of optimization ability. My first thought was wizard, but I thought there might be something better.

As for the trapfinding fodder safety precaution uh...allies, I was thinking of taking that one elemental summoning reserve feat.

Good choice.

You'll want to be able to deal with a couple of things - you're expecting traps, so you want to be able to deal with airborne poisons, melee attacks, and so on. You'll also want to be able to get out of annoying spots, and be able to "disarm" traps with brute force. You'll also want to be permanently detecting magic in front of you - If you're a Wizard, Detect Magic and Permanency are available at level 9 (as is the Summon Elemental Reserve feat).

A Small (Whisper Gnome) Wizard-9, with, oh, Fiery Burst, Elemental Summoning, a Permanencied Detect Magic, a Necklace of Adaptation, and a Ring of Invisibility would do quite well (stay invisible, Summon Earth Elemental to run ahead along intended path of travel, concentrate on Detect Magic every round, flame anything that hurts the elemental into a puddle, flame anything that registers as magic into a puddle, have a summoned elemental manipulate anything that needs manipulation).

Thane of Fife
2008-09-13, 06:41 PM
That's because, before 3e, the only way you could find a trap is if you figured out how the DM hid it. Same with secret doors, actually - a fine game of Zork if I've ever played one

So what's the point of that 'Find/Remove Trap' Thief ability, then? And how about the rules for finding secret doors in the 2nd edition DM's guide?

Methinks you might want to do a bit more research.

Thurbane
2008-09-13, 07:47 PM
Maybe a dedicated summoner, who keeps sending creatures ahead of the party to soak up traps? Or you could probably achieve the same with a wand of Summon Monster III or IV.

monty
2008-09-13, 10:37 PM
Already got that, with Elemental Summoning. Free (except for a feat), and unlimited.

hamlet
2008-09-15, 08:34 AM
The key to making it through Tomb of Horrors (the real version, not the sissified 3.x version) alive is not the build of your character, or the equipment you carry, it's common sense.

Carry several ten foot poles and do not step on any surface without first testing it with this implement. Do not go through any doors without first testing them.

When faced with any kind of puzzle, do not take any action until you have completely explored the area. COMPLETELY. This includes turning over every rock and object that isn't nailed to the floor and a few that are. Examine everything around you in full detail. Drive you DM absolutely crazy with questions.

Take nothing at face value. Everything is a trick, though none of it arbitrary.

Do not commit the party to a course of action until you are sure what you're doing. Many traps are designed in such a way that they trap entire parties that tramp on ahead instead of just the first person to walk that way.

Most important, do not rely on dice rolling to get you through. That will lead to your death.

I've taken a 1st level thief through the tomb and gotten out alive.

In the end, if you make it that far, remember that just cause it moves doesn't mean you have to kill it. Cowardice is the better part of valor sometimes.

DrizztFan24
2008-09-15, 08:56 AM
I played through the tomb in almost the exact same situation. I used a beguiler/assassin...but the Assassin levels boosted my beguiler spellcasting so go full beguiler, or beguiler/mindbender1. Then with a few metamagic rods you can extend spiderclimb to last enarly forever, you can hide, you can find traps, find secret doors. You just wont be able to deal with the undead, but you have teammates for that (you aren't Pun-Pun making everyone else totally useless, jsut picking up the slack).
I accidently took the usual escape route for my initial way into the tomb (found that out later). There were some bad traps but as long as you played smart there was no biggy. Oh, and there are a few tough baddies but they are few and far between, but Gygax seemed to have optimized them when he made them so don't expect anything simple from the critters.

Spend all your cash on items to boost skills or spells...or savings throws.
Oh, and marbles, chalk and telescoping poles. They extend to 12 feet and your dm won't wonder how you are carrying a 10 foot pole in such a small place.

any further question osrdetails of my particular experience just ask, I can spoiler(with warning) or PM.

Warning, this is a spoiler tag
Oh, man you cheated and tried to look! What would your DM think of you? Actually he would probably say you are pretty smart for excersising any avenue possible.

Eorran
2008-09-15, 10:00 AM
I played the 3.5 version with a Rogue/Dungeon Delver (C. Adv), a warlock, and a psychic warrior. However, we played level 12's instead of lvl 9.
It was almost stupidly easy. The Rogue's trapfinding and disabling skills were high enough that she'd only fail on 2 or less, and the warlock took Voracious Dispelling (taking 20 on Dispel checks, yay!). The Psychic Warrior was only there for the couple of actual fights.

That said, if we had played at level 9, it would have been impossible to beat any of the dispel checks. And the end fight basically pits the PCs against "rocks fall, everyone dies." Yeah, our DM nerfed the BBEG, because the adventure felt pretty stupid otherwise. I know people will say it's against the spirit of Tomb of Horrors, but whatever.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-15, 10:04 AM
I played the 3.5 version with a Rogue/Dungeon Delver (C. Adv), a warlock, and a psychic warrior. However, we played level 12's instead of lvl 9.
It was almost stupidly easy. The Rogue's trapfinding and disabling skills were high enough that she'd only fail on 2 or less, and the warlock took Voracious Dispelling (taking 20 on Dispel checks, yay!). The Psychic Warrior was only there for the couple of actual fights.

That said, if we had played at level 9, it would have been impossible to beat any of the dispel checks. And the end fight basically pits the PCs against "rocks fall, everyone dies." Yeah, our DM nerfed the BBEG, because the adventure felt pretty stupid otherwise. I know people will say it's against the spirit of Tomb of Horrors, but whatever.
What the hell sort of cheese did you use on the Rogue? The target DCs are all 40+. 15(ranks)+5(feats)+4(Int)+5(Item)+2(Circumstance)= 31. You still need a 10 on most of the rolls. :smallconfused:

DrizztFan24
2008-09-15, 10:35 AM
are competence bonuses included in there? I've never been one to track the different sources of bonuses until i need to.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-15, 10:41 AM
That's the +5 item. Those are always competence. The Circumstance could be as high as +4, from Aid Another, but that crew doesn't seem remotely set up for that. Maybe they tossed 10,000 GP on the item, so it's +10 rather than +5, but...

Eorran
2008-09-15, 10:44 AM
What the hell sort of cheese did you use on the Rogue? The target DCs are all 40+. 15(ranks)+5(feats)+4(Int)+5(Item)+2(Circumstance)= 31. You still need a 10 on most of the rolls. :smallconfused:

Unfortunately, I didn't build the rogue, so I'm not sure. However, we use the 3.0 PHB/DMG still, so I think she had a +10 Item bonus - lens of detection, or goggles of minute seeing (can't remember which). And high starting stats. And I think Dungeon Delver gives another bonus? (Away from my books at the moment.)
And the dice love this player. Love. Spelled L-O-A-D-E-D (I can't prove that:smallwink:)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-15, 10:47 AM
It's doable, there's no question about that, but we're talking DC 40+ here, and without a massive amount of effort, you're not hitting that on anything resembling a regular basis. 3.0, I don't know the rules, but that would be massively hard to get by level 12. Impossible by level 9, of course.

Orran
2008-09-15, 10:53 AM
I've taken a 1st level thief through the tomb and gotten out alive.


By which of course you mean that you walked in and walked out again right? Since I'd bet money against anyone actually completing the tomb like that.

arguskos
2008-09-15, 11:02 AM
I had a friend who was playing a Thri-Kreen barbarian. He hit a trap that teleports people to a random room. He got tossed into the final room, and surprised the BBEG... and devastated it in one round. This was like two hours in. The DM looked devastated, and sobbed a little bit.

:smallbiggrin:

-argus

hamlet
2008-09-15, 11:06 AM
By which of course you mean that you walked in and walked out again right? Since I'd bet money against anyone actually completing the tomb like that.

There's very little to actually fight in the tomb, and even less of it that you need to fight.

Nope, that 1st level thief managed to find a bit of treasure (a gem worth a few thousand gp as I recall) and decided that was plenty for even his greed and ran like hell.

ETA: It's all about style and knowing when to cash out.

Curmudgeon
2008-09-15, 11:43 AM
If you can start at level 10 (which is pretty reasonable, since the minimum party level for ToH is 9) then you'll want a Rogue with good INT, maxed skills, Skill Mastery (to "take 10") and Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel) (to "take 12"). Add a Lens of Detection and a +2 masterwork tool for most of the skills (Search, Disable Device, and so on) and you're in good shape for the traps.

As for the undead, the Penetrating Strike alternative class feature (Dungeonscape) lets you deal half normal sneak attack damage to those normally immune. You lose trap sense, but with good trapfinding the former isn't very important. You probably can't afford +3 weapons, but if you had a caster with some CL boost (such as Orange Ioun stone, Transformation Domain (Races of Eberron), or Ring of Arcane Might) to reach CL 12 you could benefit from Greater Magic Weapon to get to +3 and add a Greater Truedeath weapon augment crystal to do full sneak attack damage against undead.

Chronos
2008-09-15, 04:57 PM
If you can start at level 10 (which is pretty reasonable, since the minimum party level for ToH is 9) then you'll want a Rogue with good INT, maxed skills, Skill Mastery (to "take 10") and Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel) (to "take 12").True, but that ties you into 10 levels of rogue, and there are so many better options available for a skill-monkey. A factotum 3/anything 7 would be better, as would a straight factotum 10.

monty
2008-09-15, 04:59 PM
Just talked to my DM again, and he said we'll be starting at level 14. Considering that's five levels higher than the minimum, I guess I won't need to worry as much - sheer number of levels will make up for most other stuff.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-15, 05:09 PM
Just talked to my DM again, and he said we'll be starting at level 14. Considering that's five levels higher than the minimum, I guess I won't need to worry as much - sheer number of levels will make up for most other stuff.

:xykon: Bwahahahahahahahaha!

*gasp*

:xykon: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

*wheeze*

:xykon: BWAH HA HA HA HA!

Oh man, that's a good one.

Dr Bwaa
2008-09-15, 05:17 PM
Just talked to my DM again, and he said we'll be starting at level 14. Considering that's five levels higher than the minimum, I guess I won't need to worry as much - sheer number of levels will make up for most other stuff.

I ran ToH for two-four of my friends over a couple of days (there were a couple who were in and out, hence the 2-4). At level 14. I think we had six TPKs and many more not-quite TPKs, and they were very smart guys being very careful. Levels don't help you in the ToH, smart planning and paranoia help a little, and an awful lot of luck can help...well, some.

As far as advice, I'm honestly going to recommend Monk for this one. You're the hardest class to incapacitate, you can't really do traps but since you're so high level you can still take ranks in search/disable, you get improved evasion which is even better...the list goes on. One of my players was a monk, and was solely responsible for several other encounters not being TPKs, not to mention handling much of the tomb on his own. I really, really do recommend it for ToH, as well as Ki Blast, which is a feat that lets you shoot energy balls for damage with like a 60-foot range. Don't remember where it's from though, all I know is that he used it all the damn time and it saved everyone's lives an awful lot.

EDIT: and even though you're a monk, you still want good int. Your good stats should be dex, int, con, and wis, in roughly that order. and get UMD and a few scrolls of high-level magic vestment; this offsets putting your wis relatively low on the priorities list.

Additionally, someone in the party should get Permanent Arcane Sight. That is an actual, legitimate advantage in the ToH (heh... well, as much as anything is.)

arguskos
2008-09-15, 05:25 PM
Just talked to my DM again, and he said we'll be starting at level 14. Considering that's five levels higher than the minimum, I guess I won't need to worry as much - sheer number of levels will make up for most other stuff.
Soooo, you're kidding, right?

Levels, mechanics, DICE, none of it matters in the Tomb of Slaughter-Flavored-Death -I mean Horrors. You live and you die based on the DM's whim and your wits, not based on anything else. If the DM is a bastard, you are all screwed so hard, you may as well not try. If he's not... you may all die lots anyways.

As for how to actually survive, I can't stress paranoia enough. Play a strong rogue-ish character. Carry lots of ten-foot poles. Use them ALL THE TIME. Poke everything and anything you see and every/anything you can't see, just for good measure. Carry lots of torches/sunrods. Light them, and toss them into any dark areas you find. If you don't see them, don't go that way. If you see them, and they suddenly go out after a moment, don't go that way. Etc...

Paranoia is the name of the game, and the game is EVIL. Also, for the love of all that is holy, good, and just in this world, DO NOT TRY TO SKIP THINGS WITH MAGIC, esp not planeshifting magics. Just don't. If you do, you will never be seen again (tm).

-argus

mostlyharmful
2008-09-15, 05:27 PM
Just talked to my DM again, and he said we'll be starting at level 14. Considering that's five levels higher than the minimum, I guess I won't need to worry as much - sheer number of levels will make up for most other stuff.

Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here....... You are soooooo doomed.:smallamused:

arguskos
2008-09-15, 05:28 PM
I just thought of an epic name for the doors of the Tomb of Horrors (based on American Colonial History, interestingly enough): the Gates of No Return.

:smallamused:

-argus

Turcano
2008-09-15, 05:37 PM
And the end fight basically pits the PCs against "rocks fall, everyone dies."

The trick beating the end fight is for two spellcasters to spam shatter and command (forget) while the rest of the party deals with the ghost. But you'd pretty much have to read the module to know that.

chiasaur11
2008-09-15, 06:10 PM
Just talked to my DM again, and he said we'll be starting at level 14. Considering that's five levels higher than the minimum, I guess I won't need to worry as much - sheer number of levels will make up for most other stuff.

Just remember, as your corpses rot under piles of rubble, or have ceased to exist altogether, I recommended a Kobold with manipulate form.

It's the only foolproof method to survive.

Singhilarity
2008-09-15, 06:39 PM
Would your DM let you use THIS? (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/5M5QGsJ5mpbLfAHduZG.html)

Curmudgeon
2008-09-15, 07:50 PM
True, but that ties you into 10 levels of rogue, and there are so many better options available for a skill-monkey. A factotum 3/anything 7 would be better, as would a straight factotum 10.
Generally speaking, yes, though Rogues have other useful class abilities in addition to the skill monkey role. But when you really need dependable skill checks, nothing beats always being able to "take 12". Being stuck in a room with a monster because there's a trap blocking the exit is not a good time for failure on either Search or Disable Device. A Factotum can blow their whole wad of Inspiration points and still not be guaranteed checks as good as the Rogue.

drengnikrafe
2008-09-15, 08:49 PM
My first thought when I read the title for this thread was "don't do it".

this remains unchanged. Best way to survive is to not go in.

Chronos
2008-09-15, 10:21 PM
Generally speaking, yes, though Rogues have other useful class abilities in addition to the skill monkey role. But when you really need dependable skill checks, nothing beats always being able to "take 12".On the other hand, with characters over level 10, Exemplar is also an option. You can get Skill Mastery with a single-level dip of Exemplar, and it's really easy to qualify for, leaving you all of your other levels to fill with things like Factotum, a Marshal dip, an Incarnate dip, etc.

monty
2008-09-15, 11:19 PM
My first thought when I read the title for this thread was "don't do it".

this remains unchanged. Best way to survive is to not go in.

Yes, that probably is the best way. However, it's also no fun at all.

revolver kobold
2008-09-15, 11:33 PM
I ran Tomb of Horrors (3.5) on the weekend for my gaming group. 5 players, 3 experienced, 2 very new to D&D, at level 9.

While I didn't kill any of them, they gave up once they all wound up back at the start, naked and item-less. With the party wizard having a strength score of zero.

chiasaur11
2008-09-15, 11:59 PM
Yes, that probably is the best way. However, it's also no fun at all.

Unless you sit outside and mock those who do it.
Good times.

monty
2008-09-16, 12:01 AM
Unless you sit outside and mock those who do it.
Good times.

There's an idea. I'll just make a simulacrum of myself and follow them, spouting insults at random intervals.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-16, 12:06 AM
There's an idea. I'll just make a simulacrum of myself and follow them, spouting insults at random intervals.

I've always been a fan of a Programed Illusion outside the door that points and laughs whenever a naked person walks by :smalltongue:

monty
2008-09-22, 06:49 PM
Well, I think I found a niche for myself. I'm the Disintegrator. I disintegrate everything. Everything. Most of my sixth level spell slots, plus the Innate Spell feat, are disintegrate. If we get into a tough encounter, I can usually end it pretty quickly with disintegrate, quickened disintegrate (Incantatrix), celerity-disintegrate (DM uses the original free-action quicken). Ah, if only I had room for Twin or Split Ray (or both)...

Only one death so far! Ironically, it was to a disintegrate spell (not mine).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-22, 06:52 PM
I may be crazy. Today, I asked my DM to run us through ToH for Halloween. I need to teach a couple members of my group that touching is not always a good idea.

monty
2008-09-22, 06:55 PM
I may be crazy. Today, I asked my DM to run us through ToH for Halloween. I need to teach a couple members of my group that touching is not always a good idea.

Oh yeah. Check out my post in the epic fail thread about the paladin who fell into four consecutive pit traps because he didn't want to wait for the monkey to find them, and then got his gender and alignment switched.

Edit: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4966165&postcount=15