Celda Link vs. Sora

[Dorizzit]

This sprang out of a debate going on in my group of friends right now. In a fight between Sora (Kingdom Hearts I and II) and Link (Legend of Zelda: Windwaker) who would win? The battle takes place in a circular room with a 50 ft. radius and is 50 ft. tall. Both combatants are forced to fight until one is incapacitated or dead.

http://www.tacwb.com/Sora.jpg

Sora has the following:

-Ultima Keyblade (About equivalent to the Master Sword)
-all -ga suffix magic, except for Gravity and Cure
-can activate either Valor or Wisdom Forms once (period, not each)
-Glide
-No Summons
-No Action Commands
-No Recovery Items
(I'm not really familiar with the games, so if I forgot something important, let me know.)

http://www.wikicheats.com/images/6/6e/Smash_Bros_Brawl_Toon_Link.jpg

Link has everything he does in the game, except for bottles.

[Setra]

Without Link's invulnerability it's hard to say he would beat Sora.

Especially since only one of them can heal themselves.

[tyckspoon]

Under those conditions, I'm going to say Sora. The biggest determinant is probably no bottles for Link; this means that Sora only has to put him down once instead of 4-5 times. In turn, that means Sora doesn't have to worry about burning his limited-use powers. I think Link could probably fight off normal Sora with good use of his shield and counter-attacking after Sora wastes a combo, but between magic (Thundaga! And Cure if Sora does manage to get beat up) and one of the Drive forms Link will probably get overwhelmed and taken out.

[Pie Guy]

The problem with thundaga isthe mirror sheild. as far as I can tell, the mirror sheild blocksmost magical attacks.
And...
Lets bring in the rapid over use of the jumpslash! Woo!

[Dorizzit]

I forgot about Cure magic. That's banned.

[snoopy13a]

Can Link use his magic (from Zelda II)?

Reflect magic deflects magic back towards its caster and also allows Link to deflect items that his shield wouldn't normally deflect.

Shield magic cuts damage in half

Jump magic allows Link to jump higher

Fairy magic turns Link into a fairy

Fire magic allows Link to shoot fireballs from his sword

Life magic allows Link to heal himself

Spell magic turns enemies into blobs

Thunder magic does damage against enemies (usually kills the weaker ones)

Reflect magic could negate offensive spells and spell magic could turn the other guy into an easily killable blob (it doesn't work on bosses however)

[Dorizzit]

I think since that's unique to one game...no.

[Oslecamo]

Can anyone explain me why does Sora gets his best weapon working at full strenght while Link is limited to use a metal pointy stick?


Anyway, magic nukes are useless against the mirror shield, and Link is quite the talented sword and broad guy.

Bombs are somewhat slow for Sora, but arrows+hookshot+boomerang give Link the ranged advantage in the end. I don't think Sora can dodge them all.

My vote's on Link.

[lordofthe_wog]

Mirror Shield can block any and all forms of anything even distinctly energy-like, such as magic. Now, I haven't played a ton of Kingdom Hearts, but Link can (in theory) block anything.

As for a regular sword fight, it just boils down to who's most maneuverable.

[Seraph]

I don't see how its fair that sora gets his most powerful magic and link gets none of his.

unless it counts for this duel that the mirror shield can block all of soras spells, in which case the terms are fair and link wins on virtue of being the far superior swordsman.

[Setra]

Can anyone explain me why does Sora gets his best weapon working at full strenght while Link is limited to use a metal pointy stick?


Anyway, magic nukes are useless against the mirror shield, and Link is quite the talented sword and broad guy.

Bombs are somewhat slow for Sora, but arrows+hookshot+boomerang give Link the ranged advantage in the end. I don't think Sora can dodge them all.

My vote's on Link.
What do you mean he cant' dodge em all? It's not like Link can fire more than one at a time. I don't ever recall any Zelda game in which the arrows ever worked well against a moving target.

Not to mention Link is rather slow compared to Sora.

[Revanmal]

Can anyone explain me why does Sora gets his best weapon working at full strenght while Link is limited to use a metal pointy stick?

That's a good point - Should Sora get his standard keyblade instead?

[Setra]

That's a good point - Should Sora get his standard keyblade instead?
That would be unfair, somewhat, in that Link gets something better than his standard weapon.

Perhaps a random mid level keyblade?

[tyckspoon]

Mirror Shield can block any and all forms of anything even distinctly energy-like, such as magic. Now, I haven't played a ton of Kingdom Hearts, but Link can (in theory) block anything.


This is overstating the abilities of the Mirror Shield, but even if you grant it that level of power: It doesn't create a magic-intercepting force-field; it only blocks the things you can put the shield in front of. You can fireball Link in the back all you want (say by circle-strafing in Wisdom mode), and the Thunder line of spells strikes from overhead. And if the fight turns into a ranged duel of Wisdom form/spells against bow/boomerang/hookshot.. Link can't have the shield out and at the ready at the same time as he holds the bow or throws his boomerang.

[Zaphrasz]

This is an extremely lopsided match-up. You decided to give Sora all of his magic except healing items and disallowed Link to use any. Link with his magic takes far more than even a full power Sora can dish out. It is getting annoying, having to point this one out during every versus thread involving Link, but Mortal Draw. One hit is all it takes.

If you won't accept that, then bomb arrows. Sora may block the arrow, but not the explosion. You didn't specify which boomerang, so why not the Gale Boomerang, which Link can set a specific path for? This combined with his bombs and ranged attacks gives him control of the battlefield.

[Setra]

This is an extremely lopsided match-up. You decided to give Sora all of his magic except healing items and disallowed Link to use any. Link with his magic takes far more than even a full power Sora can dish out. It is getting annoying, having to point this one out during every versus thread involving Link, but Mortal Draw. One hit is all it takes.

If you won't accept that, then bomb arrows. Sora may block the arrow, but not the explosion. You didn't specify which boomerang, so why not the Gale Boomerang, which Link can set a specific path for? This combined with his bombs and ranged attacks gives him control of the battlefield.
I highly doubt Mortal Draw would OHKO Sora, you may notice it doesn't instakill everything and Sora is hardly a normal enemy. Not to mention if he sheathed his sword to do so he would be wide open for attack.

Link has been shown to have no real skill in leading targets, if you don't believe me try locking onto a moving target and using arrows, he tends to miss a lot as long as the target is moving, Sora tends to not STOP moving. Again this leaves him wide open.

Perhaps he could use the gale boomerang, to try and get Sora where he wants to go, then shoot there, that may work... but maybe not. Again he is wide open and it takes him a bit to specify a path.

Sora as well has no skill in leading targets either I will admit, even less than Link most likely... but his abilities also fire faster. In the time Link would take to fire a bomb arrow Sora could have used his projectile ability (Firaga in 1, Blizzaga in 2) twice, or cast Thundaga.

Not to mention protective magics such as Aeroga and Reflectega.

[Zaphrasz]

Then use manual aiming, which is limited by the player doing the aiming. It is incredibly easy to hit a moving target this way. Same goes for the Gale Boomerang. So much of the abilities of a video game character depend on who is controlling them, so how exact and how fast the character is becomes, "whatever you want it to be." That's why so many of these debates are unsolvable. Heck, between the games themselves the speed of Link's firing changes so much that it goes from "sub machine gun" to a "Actually almost reasonable."

The problem with the Mortal Draw is the fine line between gameplay elements and canon abilities. Since the guy that taught it to Link said "There is no defense for this. The Mortal Draw deals death," I tend to believe that if it connects, it kills. Bosses are a gameplay element, which is why they don't immediately die. Armored enemies make it difficult to connect, which is why it doesn't always work there either. Perhaps I am cherry picking, but who is to say what is true or not?

Perhaps the final answer to who wins is "Whoever you want."

[Setra]

Perhaps the final answer to who wins is "Whoever you want."
This is in general true for most vs. battles on here.

Or perhaps "whomever you played better"

[Anteros]

Sora can cut through buildings and is fast enough to run up and down the side of buildings ignoring gravity. Link can't match up to Sora's power scale without his absurd items. This goes to Sora easily.

[Lord_Ganthar]

lots of talking, lol

[Dorizzit]

A clarification: as far as I know, Link only had magic and learned combat techniques like mortal draw in one game. Since Legend of Zelda has so many games, I didn't want to give Link a ridiculous advantage like giving him every ability he ever had. Also, Santeros, as I recall cutting through buildings is an action command. On the matter of Master Sword vs. Ultima Keyblade...the power differential isn't all that great. If I remember right, the Keyblade is designed to destroy Heartless, just like the Master Sword is designed to destroy evil, so both would be out of their element. In terms of maneuverability, it depends. Sora is faster over long distances, while Link is much more mobile up close, at least from what I've seen. Sora may be better at a range, but anything other than Thundaga can be deflected by the mirror shield, and that can be dodged most of the time.

[Zeful]

Sora can cut through buildings and is fast enough to run up and down the side of buildings ignoring gravity. Link can't match up to Sora's power scale without his absurd items. This goes to Sora easily.

So? He fights with a key. Link fights with a real weapon (that in this case isn't much better than his starting weapon). Link could simply throw the red boomerang (ToTG/LttP) in front of Sora to stun him then keep throwing it at him to keep him stunned as he closed in alternating sword strikes with boomerang hits, keeping Sora stunned indefinitely.

EDIT: Link could also just get close to a wall throwing the hookshot against it repeatedly making him invincible to everything (again ToTG's Link). So Sora will die of deydration long before Link is capable of getting tired.

It's all a matter of who's playing who.

[Seraph]

at least give him the ice/fire/light arrows, Link has had them in at least 3 games and two incarnations.

[Setra]

Just a few other things..

Sora also seems to be getting access to his abilities, such as Guard, and his other nifty abilities such as the ability to knock enemies into the air, create explosions around him, break guards, have infinite combos as long as his magic is recharging, as well as access to two of his forms.

Valor is even faster and stronger, and I can't quite recall but I think Wisdom had great range and better mobility.

Also if we count abilities from the first game he has a plethora of abilities Link would have trouble fighting against.

[Anteros]

Yes it's a key. It's a key that can cut through entire buildings. Honestly I'd rather have it than Link's sword. As for the boomerang argument you're assuming that Sora will never move and Link has perfect aim.

And if you're going to use game mechanics to say that Link can be invincible forever and Sora will die of thirst...Even putting aside how incredibly stupid that is, there is no game mechanic for thirst, so no.

[Zeful]

So Link is fighting a black screen? I said throw in front of, assuming that Sora is moving, in a strafing pattern nonetheless. So Sora runs into the boomerang stunning himself. Then you just keep boomeranging Sora as you close in to melee range before the stun wares off (assuming Sora is stunned only for a short while) then you Stab, boomerang, walk, stab, boomerang, walk, untill Sora is dead. Ergo victory to link.

And the Hookshot plus wall can be executed until Sora runs out of MP and uses his special form dealie, making it just a melee match.

[Setra]

And the Hookshot plus wall can be executed until Sora runs out of MP and uses his special form dealie, making it just a melee match.
Sora regenerates MP

Just saying.

[Ryuuk]

You say no reaction commands, but are we judging Sora purly through gameplay (there's a guy moving him with a controler, just no magic triangle button) or through what he was shown capable of?

Square went overboard with what they had him doing, but through the reaction commands, he was shown to cut buildings in half with a blunt object (last part of the game), teleport (battle against the guy in Org XIII with the eyepatch), reflect hundreds of beam attacks in a couple of seconds (Final boss, with Riku) and run up vertical surfaces.

Even with the mortal draw, I'd still put Link in a more realistic fantasy setting compared to Sora's "Rule of Cool", over the top setting.

[GoC]

Sora can cut through buildings and is fast enough to run up and down the side of buildings ignoring gravity.
So I guess common sense is not being used in this vs. thread?

[Anteros]

So I guess common sense is not being used in this vs. thread?

No it isn't. Suspension of disbelief is part of entertainment, and is part of these characters. Any attempts to apply real world rules or logic is ultimately doomed to failure.

[thubby]

i think game mechanic wise they are too dissimilar to fight. I demand sora be put in super smash brothers to resolve this! :smallamused:

[Fan]

what are you talkingabout Thubby? Link sucks in super smash bros, and sora is a Square Enix trademark char.
The law would never allow them in the smae game without Squares premission.

[thubby]

what are you talkingabout Thubby? Link sucks in super smash bros, and sora is a Square Enix trademark char.
The law would never allow them in the smae game without Squares premission.

sonic, snake, the little robot dude isn't even from a game!

[Fan]

sonic, snake, the little robot dude isn't even from a game!

I don't even see how Snake is on the same scale as everyone else. mAkes little to no sense.

Also Sora FTW because he was origanal in BOTH his games./

[Sholos]

And Link wasn't original? I'd say Link was far more original in his games than Sora.

[Fan]

When something has been used 200 times before I'd think otherwise. (the whole svae the princess gimmic has been used since the begining of the middle ages. Sora at least cam,e up with spearate concepts, and a orignal sotrylien for each of his games ratehr than using the sameone with a slightly different flavour to it.))

Back on topic Sora slices buildings in half, and blocks billions opf things moving at the speed of light ina second. Link cant even compare.

[Oregano]

Personally I think this goes to Sora. A lot of the arguments for how good Link tend to be anecdotal evidence when someone was playing as the character.

They both have no form of healing, so that's fair, their weapons are equal, Link has more weapons, Sora has magic. That sounds fair, I think.

Overall, Sora seems to be the stronger combatant, as he can be all over the show and fight in the air, and has many ways to attack from above. He can probably dodge most of Link's attacks as well. Link can however attack him from a range, which Sora can only match with Magic and Wisdom Form and he can still dodge Link's attacks where Link can't block while shooting.

You know what I'm personally sick of, over-exaggeration of people's power. Some people just aren't that powerful.

[Revlid]

Back on topic Sora slices buildings in half, and blocks billions opf things moving at the speed of light ina second. Link cant even compare.

*raises eyebrow*

He never did any of those things while I was playing him. Nor was I able to run up walls with him, except at the start of the Wonderland level.

I'm going to have to go with Link here. Sora's magic will just be reflected by the Mirror Shield, and Link is indisputably a better swordsman, as well as having ranged attacks.

[Oregano]

I've never hit a moving target with an arrow while playing as Link.:smallconfused:

How's Link "indisputably the better swordsman"? I've never seen any intricate Swordplay, mostly just stabs and slices(of course Mortal Draw is a highly effective technique).

Sora took on a thousand enemies at ONCE!, of course they were really weak enemies.

DISCLAIMER: This poster actually likes Link and The Legend of Zelda.

[Dorizzit]

Truly ridiculous things done by Sora are generally reaction commands, to my knowledge, which is why they were banned. Seriously, people, stop bringing this up.
Additionally, no spamming the individual game rules.

[Fan]

*raises eyebrow*

He never did any of those things while I was playing him. Nor was I able to run up walls with him, except at the start of the Wonderland level.

I'm going to have to go with Link here. Sora's magic will just be reflected by the Mirror Shield, and Link is indisputably a better swordsman, as well as having ranged attacks.
You have apprently NEVER played KH2 silly man.

[Dorizzit]

How's Link "indisputably the better swordsman"? I've never seen any intricate Swordplay, mostly just stabs and slices(of course Mortal Draw is a highly effective technique).

Sora took on a thousand enemies at ONCE!, of course they were really weak enemies.

In my opinion, Link is less of a better swordsman (I'd put that about equal, both are fairly simplistic in attack patterns) as much as a better fighter. His combat style is based around allowing his opponent to attack, dodging, and then smacking the crap out of them with a sharp pointy stick while they're still over extended. This would certainly be problematic for Sora, because Link would be able to dodge and then attack him in the time it takes Sora to retract his blade. Also, being able to take on thousands of weak enemies doesn't mean all that much. There are different styles of combat, and Link's is designed to fight small groups.

[Oregano]

But Sora's also very good at dodging and very fast, he can literally run circles around most people and knows a variety of sword techniques although they all work of the basic swipes.

EDIT: I know, it was said in jest(but I didn't show that).

[Mx.Silver]

Back on topic Sora slices buildings in half, and blocks billions opf things moving at the speed of light ina second.

No. No he doesn't, otherwise you wouldn't be able to see it happen.

[Fan]

No. No he doesn't, otherwise you wouldn't be able to see it happen.

Its itnentionly slowed down in the scene when Riku, and Him block a dome of lasers (which all move at the speeed of light.) so you the player can see whats going on.

[Oregano]

I think that's an over-exxageration there FFF, but suffice to say the energy is too fast for anyone with human reflexes to dodge.

[Fan]

Which is faster than Link who I might add has displayedNOTHING on the scale of Soras relfexes, or strength.

[Oregano]

Indeed, Link seems on par with an athletic human but no where close to super human, although this point may be moot because I think the whole dodging energy thing is a reaction command IIRC and the OP said they are not a valid argument.

[Fan]

Indeed, Link seems on par with an athletic human but no where close to super human, although this point may be moot because I think the whole dodging energy thing is a reaction command IIRC and the OP said they are not a valid argument.
Well he dodges energy like that anyway un the fight before that he is flying, and he does soem pretty impressive aerial maunvers to dodge the lasers shot at him, anmd I THINK that its not even a reaction command./

[Zaphrasz]

Link is most certainly superhuman. I went over this in previous versus threads, but Twilight Princess Link has the strength the lift and throw a giant goron. Depending on the incarnations of Link, he also has magically enhanced strength that allows him to lift and throw huge pillars of stone. His accuracy is absurd, being capable of hitting a target several hundred yards away with his bow, splitting lengths of rope, and shooting arrows out of the air.

[Fan]

Link is most certainly superhuman. I went over this in previous versus threads, but Twilight Princess Link has the strength the lift and throw a giant goron. Depending on the incarnations of Link, he also has magically enhanced strength that allows him to lift and throw huge pillars of stone. His accuracy is absurd, being capable of hitting a target several hundred yards away with his bow, splitting lengths of rope, and shooting arrows out of the air.

Those are the equivlaent of Soras reaction commands though for Link. That, and i thin kwe settled that in a sperate thread that Link was actually being asiisted in both cases (in the kokri vilage by a scope, and in the other case was with much aiming, and precison. And in trhe case of shootign arrows it was also game mechanic pwoered by the lock on feature which IS optional.)

[Zaphrasz]

We decided that, while having magnetic boots helps, the upper body strength needed to accomplish that is absurd. The Kokiri village stunt can be done without the scope; I didn't even know it existed until I had beaten the game. The amount of time it takes to set up the shot, again, depends on the player.

[Fan]

We decided that, while having magnetic boots helps, the upper body strength needed to accomplish that is absurd. The Kokiri village stunt can be done without the scope; I didn't even know it existed until I had beaten the game. The amount of time it takes to set up the shot, again, depends on the player.

The same goes for whoever is playing sora as to weather not hes faster than Link if they have ANY skill. (also it takes more strength to slice througha building then to move a sluightly armored larger then average Goron.) He is, if they are utter newbs then hes about as good as Link as far as reflexs go. Mind you I'm arguing this without him using his forms.

[Oregano]

I think the Goron example might be a one-off power creep because I've never seen him do anything else anywhere near that strength.

Also, I was referring to his speed, he's no faster or nimble than an athletic human, whereas Sora is shown to be faster.
I also agree that if shooting arrows midflight is a valid argument so should the Reaction commands, so I'm going to say that point is a mooted one.

[Setra]

The problem with Link is.. he isn't the same person in most games... so naturally his power fluctuates.

I say we should narrow it down to one Link to get a better idea of his capabilities, perhaps OoT/MM Link?

Maybe Zelda 1/2 Link?

TP Link?

Choosing just one might allow for a more fair fight, since we could allow some abilities that were previously disallowed.

I believe OoT/MM Link could probably beat Sora, depending on the Masks and spells given, if only because we are ignoring the capabilities Sora has displayed within Reaction commands (ie. cutting skyscrapers in half, dodging countless high speed projectiles).

[Oregano]

The problem with OoT/MM Link is he gets a massive power creep at the end and ultimately becomes too powerful to even make this serious. People argue that TP Link is too weak and it's unfair. I don't know what people think of original link.

How about Link's Awakening Link?

It's kind of like an Unpleasable Fanbase.

[Fan]

The problem with OoT/MM Link is he gets a massive power creep at the end and ultimately becomes too powerful to even make this serious. People argue that TP Link is too weak and it's unfair. I don't know what people think of original link.

How about Link's Awakening Link?

It's kind of like an Unpleasable Fanbase.
Fixed that for you.

[Setra]

The problem with OoT/MM Link is he gets a massive power creep at the end and ultimately becomes too powerful to even make this serious. People argue that TP Link is too weak and it's unfair. I don't know what people think of original link.

How about Link's Awakening Link?

It's kind of like an Unpleasable Fanbase.
Well if it was OoT/MM we could disallow the final mask, that might make it fair.

Link's Awakening Link is my favorite Link >.> but really he's probably the weakest. The pegasus boots might be interesting in the fight though.

Fixed that for you.
Really there's no room to talk, as Sora has an even LARGER power creep. Before that he's shown to be perhaps several times stronger and faster than a normal human ... then he starts cutting skyscrapers in half.

WITH A BLUNT OBJECT.

[Oregano]

He's my favourite Link as well, the Rooster's awesome, I don't care what anyone says. Even if he is the weakest, he's not that weak. Is it Link's Awakening with Goombas and Shyguys in it?

EDIT: That's Square Enix final boss syndrome, or that's what I like to call it anyway, where suddenly everyone unleashes full power and it can get ridiculious at times.

It's disputed whether these are accurate displays of power though.

[Setra]

He's my favourite Link as well, the Rooster's awesome, I don't care what anyone says. Even if he is the weakest, he's not that weak. Is it Link's Awakening with Goombas and Shyguys in it?
I don't quite remember Shyguys but it did have Goombas, or something akin to them anyways.

I'm trying to remember his items..

Caves:
1. Feather, Jump
2. Bracers, Lifting?
3. Pegasus Boots?
4. ?
5. ?
6. ?
7. ?
8. Fire Rod?

He also had a Shovel, Bombs, Bow and Arrows... pretty sure he got the Hookshot and Boomerang in a cave, though I may be remembering wrong..

[Fan]

Really there's no room to talk, as Sora has an even LARGER power creep. Before that he's shown to be perhaps several times stronger and faster than a normal human ... then he starts cutting skyscrapers in half.

WITH A BLUNT OBJECT.

Nad Link makes himself invulernable for SIX DAYS as well as hitting you infinte times in a second while being the size of a giant.

[Setra]

Nad Link makes himself invulernable for SIX DAYS as well as hitting you infinte times in a second while being the size of a giant.
First off...

Nayru's Love, in OoT lasts for a set period of time, even with infinite magic it wouldn't last forever.

I've never beaten MM, but I do know it would technically be impossible for ANYTHING to last six days.

Edit: On another note, doesn't this technically belong in gaming?

[Fan]

First off...

Nayru's Love, in OoT lasts for a set period of time, even with infinite magic it wouldn't last forever.

I've never beaten MM, but I do know it would technically be impossible for ANYTHING to last six days.
The CHeatu romani Narus Love combo. Narus Love lasts until you are out of magic with Cheatu romani you have infinte magic.:smallsigh:

[Oregano]

It's a glitch that people said was a valid argument in a past thread, not sure which one though.:smallconfused:

I usually only skim vs. threads.

Link did get the Hookshot and Boomerang, it was a glitch to throw the boomerang and grab the rooster then fly around and it would hit enemies while you were perfectly safe.

You also need the hookshot up in the mountains, I think you may have needed it to get to the big tower up there.

[Setra]

The CHeatu romani Narus Love combo. Narus Love lasts until you are out of magic with Cheatu romani you have infinte magic.:smallsigh:
After looking through 3-4 FAQs as well as the cheats section of Gamefaqs.. I find nothing to support this.

Heck I didn't even get a result for Nayru (or Naru, or Naryu) in a FAQ search for Majora's Mask

And I know for a FACT that Windmills do not work that way in OoT (ie. It takes magic to cast, and lasts a set period of time)

It was EvilElitists argument in the 50+ page Sephiroth vs. Link Argument.

I developed a counterargument for it, as I was on the Sephiroth side, but when I first posted it it was ignored, and ... it ended shortly after.

[Fan]

After looking through 3-4 FAQs as well as the cheats section of Gamefaqs.. I find nothing to support this.

Heck I didn't even get a result for Nayru (or Naru, or Naryu) in a FAQ search for Majora's Mask

And I know for a FACT that Windmills do not work that way in OoT (ie. It takes magic to cast, and lasts a set period of time)

It was EvilElitists argument in the 50+ page Sephiroth vs. Link Argument.
Yes, and EE (despite his claims) is tottaly wrong on the Link eating Sephie front.

ANyway back on topic.
Sora would eat Links face with marinade becuase all the arguements I have been presenting have been withouth im having the spped, strength, and magic boosts from his forms.

[Setra]

Yes, and EE (despite his claims) is tottaly wrong on the Link eating Sephie front.

ANyway back on topic.
Sora would eat Links face with marinade becuase all the arguements I have been presenting have been withouth im having the spped, strength, and magic boosts from his forms.
He can only use one form once.

Just a note.

Really though the only Link who stands a chance would be OoT/MM Link.

[Fan]

He can only use one form once.

Just a note.

Really though the only Link who stands a chance would be OoT/MM Link.
True, but it augments his speed, and strength, and I can usually keep my form for about 5 minuets or until my opponet is dead.

[Oregano]

TP Link could use the Mortal Draw, but it probably shouldn't kill Sora in one hit if we're being fair.

The death spell isn't in Kingdom Hearts is it?

The problem is though, the OoT/MM Link would probably wipe the floor with Sora with all the power he amasses.

What about the Heartless form, that could end up working in Link's favour couldn't it?

I'm on the side of Sora but I had to point it out to make this discussion fair.

EDIT: I hardly used forms, you don't need them on the game but they seem to last a long time.

[Setra]

True, but it augments his speed, and strength, and I can usually keep my form for about 5 minuets or until my opponet is dead.At the very least he's got a minute in the form...

Honestly? If Sora charged at Link and managed to knock him into the air, it'd be over... Sora can juggle enemies in the air quite well, and Link well ... he's not quite able to defy physics as well as Sora. No matter which Link it is, he has never really shown any aerial combat ability.

[Fan]

TP Link could use the Mortal Draw, but it probably shouldn't kill Sora in one hit if we're being fair.

The death spell isn't in Kingdom Hearts is it?

The problem is though, the OoT/MM Link would probably wipe the floor with Sora with all the power he amasses.

What about the Heartless form, that could end up working in Link's favour couldn't it?

I'm on the side of Sora but I had to point it out to make this discussion fair.

EDIT: I hardly used forms, you don't need them on the game but they seem to last a long time.

The OP stated only Valor, or Wisdom, and anti form is a .5% chance of happening.

[Oregano]

Good point, the OP actually tipped it into Sora's favour unknowingly by restricting it to them forms.

hah, I only just noticed the parallels between Sora and Link.

Keyblade/Master Sword
Anti-form/Dark Link


Is there any others? Although this is a tangent.

[Setra]

The OP stated only Valor, or Wisdom, and anti form is a .5% chance of happening.
To be honest?

Anti Form would probably be an advantage for Sora anyways.

Sure the Master sword might be more effective but.. I honestly doubt Link would be able to get a hit off against the super fast form. The biggest drawback of the Anti-Form was lack of reaction commands.. so yeah.

Edit: This is why I would call it an advantage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5bbMS8kqB8&feature=related)

[Fan]

To be honest?

Anti Form would probably be an advantage for Sora anyways.

Sure the Master sword might be more effective but.. I honestly doubt Link would be able to get a hit off against the super fast form.

True, that form is like three times as fast as he normally is, AND he warps abritraily to hit his oppnets into the air.

[Zaphrasz]

Yeah, it really comes down to which Link we use.

Original game: Link loses. He has some nice tricks, and some nifty magic, but he lacks any real cheese that the later Link's are known for. He can't take many hits, and his shielding is awful.

The Adventure of Link: Comes down to how much experience Link has. Later in the game, when he can repeatedly cast nuke spells, heal himself, and reflect magic, he is pretty nasty, but prior to that, he can't cast many spells at once.

Link's Awakening: Link probably loses. Again, he lacks some of his real powerhouse techniques, and his arsenal isn't impressive enough to take out Sora.

A Link to the Past: This depends on how much cheese you are willing to use. The various medallions don't look great for Sora, nor does temporary invincibility. His weapons kind of suck in this incarnation, but he has the nasty spells that he can use often make up for it. I think we should ignore post Ganon fight Link, though.

Ocarina of Time: Not entirely sure. It depends on what we consider gameplay elements. The damage done by his sword in this game is absurd, and he can block damn near anything. Magic arrows are kind of slow in this game, so unless he gets a lucky ice arrow shot, they don't do any good. Naryu's Love is his only real good spell in an arena matchup as well. Mirror shield can absorb magic attacks and fire them back at Sora. Hookshot is too slow, and boomerang has uses that are too limited.

Majora's Mask: Link wins. This is the only one that wins, in my mind, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Masks that are just cheesy, unlimited magic, readily available bombchus, more bottles than he usually carries, time manipulation, it just isn't fair.

Wind Waker: Link probably wins. Magic Armor allows him to shrug off any attack he wants, the ability to parry most attacks, greater speed than any other Link, and the strength to carry weapons that make Cloud's buster sword look reasonable.

Twilight Princess: This one lacks any real magic, unless you allow Midna to interfere. (probably should not) He has more sword techniques than any other Link, and his items are a bit tougher than usual. This comes down to whether A: Just how effective are the sword maneuvers? Does Mortal Draw work? Would a shield bash do anything to Sora? Is Link fast enough to land a rolling attack?, and B: Is Link accurate enough to use his weapons to their fullest extent?

[Oregano]

It seems everyone else has stopped the discussing.

I have a question though to the Link people, where's it come from that Link and Ganondorf are so powerful? I've played most of the games(not compelted them) and I've not really seen anything that puts them in the league that they are apparently in.

Which form's faster, Valor or Wisdom? Is Valor the dual wield one and Wisdom the shooting one?

EDIT: They haven't gone!

[Zaphrasz]

Zelda is a fairly high fantasy setting, it just isn't very overt about it. You can buy magical trinkets at any corner store, life saving elixirs are available, and beings that can raise the recently deceased literally just fly around all day.

In the Zelda universe, the goddesses are as big as you can get, they being the ones who created, well, everything. In just about any setting, creating god is usually impossible to top. These beings of immeasurable power left behind their essence in the form of the Triforce when they departed. In other words, the Courage, Wisdom, and Power of the creating gods are up for grabs. Ganondorf received the power aspect of the relic, and so he was granted with the power of the creating goddesses. He shows this repeatedly through immortality, absurdly powerful magic, and straight up strength. Link received their courage, so he is gifted with the very will of the gods. This explains why he always has what he needs to accomplish his goals. Zelda....ok, she isn't a good example. Supposedly, she gained the wisdom of the gods, but she really doesn't show any wisdom. Complete control of the Triforce allows someone to recreate existence how they see fit, and the main characters of the series already hold a third of that ability. Exactly how much that is is debatable, but it is pretty damn high.

Unfortunately, this is probably all open to interpretation, explaining why the perceived power level of the Zelda universe fluctuates so much.

[Fan]

Zelda is a fairly high fantasy setting, it just isn't very overt about it. You can buy magical trinkets at any corner store, life saving elixirs are available, and beings that can raise the recently deceased literally just fly around all day.

In the Zelda universe, the goddesses are as big as you can get, they being the ones who created, well, everything. In just about any setting, creating god is usually impossible to top. These beings of immeasurable power left behind their essence in the form of the Triforce when they departed. In other words, the Courage, Wisdom, and Power of the creating gods are up for grabs. Ganondorf received the power aspect of the relic, and so he was granted with the power of the creating goddesses. He shows this repeatedly through immortality, absurdly powerful magic, and straight up strength. Link received their courage, so he is gifted with the very will of the gods. This explains why he always has what he needs to accomplish his goals. Zelda....ok, she isn't a good example. Supposedly, she gained the wisdom of the gods, but she really doesn't show any wisdom. Complete control of the Triforce allows someone to recreate existence how they see fit, and the main characters of the series already hold a third of that ability. Exactly how much that is is debatable, but it is pretty damn high.

Unfortunately, this is probably all open to interpretation, explaining why the perceived power level of the Zelda universe fluctuates so much.
The Op has also stated that unless something comes up in more than one icnanranation Link doesn't possess it.

[EvilElitest]

Can anyone explain me why does Sora gets his best weapon working at full strenght while Link is limited to use a metal pointy stick?


Anyway, magic nukes are useless against the mirror shield, and Link is quite the talented sword and broad guy.

Bombs are somewhat slow for Sora, but arrows+hookshot+boomerang give Link the ranged advantage in the end. I don't think Sora can dodge them all.

My vote's on Link.

its custom. Apperent, a fair match with Squire Enix characters against link consists of nerfing link until the other foe actually has a chance

I remind everybody, this thread has been done already.



First off...

Nayru's Love, in OoT lasts for a set period of time, even with infinite magic it wouldn't last forever.

I've never beaten MM, but I do know it would technically be impossible for ANYTHING to last six days.
Nayru's love lasts as long as you have magic. in MM you have a potion that gives you unlimted magic for three days. Link has a spell that makes time go twice as slow. Thats six days right there



After looking through 3-4 FAQs as well as the cheats section of Gamefaqs.. I find nothing to support this.

Heck I didn't even get a result for Nayru (or Naru, or Naryu) in a FAQ search for Majora's Mask
How about you know, play a link game, and use the spell maybe?


And I know for a FACT that Windmills do not work that way in OoT (ie. It takes magic to cast, and lasts a set period of time)

And i know for a fact that magic can be in unlimited amounts if you use the potion. Denying evidence doesn't make it untrue


It was EvilElitists argument in the 50+ page Sephiroth vs. Link Argument.

Why you don't seem to recall the details is beyond me, i already explained it then


I developed a counterargument for it, as I was on the Sephiroth side, but when I first posted it it was ignored, and ... it ended shortly after.

Don't try to pull that. Your arguments were all countered, i invite anyone to look over that thread to see




Yes, and EE (despite his claims) is tottaly wrong on the Link eating Sephie front.
Not at all. Seph is an overhyped moron with no actual abilty other than brute strength and angst, while like is the ulitmate batman. NO context



True, but it augments his speed, and strength, and I can usually keep my form for about 5 minuets or until my opponet is dead.

This is sora's personality, not you. Sora is a moron, in game with massive emotional problems. Not a contest



At the very least he's got a minute in the form...

Honestly? If Sora charged at Link and managed to knock him into the air, it'd be over... Sora can juggle enemies in the air quite well, and Link well ... he's not quite able to defy physics as well as Sora. No matter which Link it is, he has never really shown any aerial combat ability.
Rocs feather/Roc's cape, Pegasis seeds/pegassis boots/hover boots/hook shot/switch shot/summon flying bear/clawshot? he's pretty good

from
EE
edit
for the record, Link to the past, link's awakening, Both Oracle games, MM and OoT links are all the same being, being direct sequals.
Technically speaking all the links are the same beings in different times and locations but

[Zaphrasz]

That one is not true. Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask Link are the same guy, and A Link to the Past and Link's Awakening Link are the same guy, he isn't the same in all four games. It's unclear whether the Oracle Links are the same as the OoT ones, so I think we should just assume they aren't.

[Fan]

its custom. Apperent, a fair match with Squire Enix characters against link consists of nerfing link until the other foe actually has a chance

I remind everybody, this thread has been done already.


Nayru's love lasts as long as you have magic. in MM you have a potion that gives you unlimted magic for three days. Link has a spell that makes time go twice as slow. Thats six days right there

from
EE
edit
for the record, Link to the past, link's awakening, MM and OoT links are all the same being, being direct sequals.
Technically speaking all the links are the same beings in different times and locations butbu,t he has to play the music to activate the bloody combo, AND he has to take time to pull out a bottle take off the cork, and down the netire contents for it to take effect.
That arguement only owrks if other people have abilites that tkae as much time, and quite frankly ALL of Soras abilities take abotu as much time to activate as it does to press the buttoun.

[Oregano]

I don't see how Links been nerfed. at all.

Sora is very depowered in this thread.

That invicible for six days thing is either an oversight or just utter cheese, it also isn't very fair.

[Zaphrasz]

In this case, it isn't as blatant as it could be. Link mostly just loses his elixirs and fairies that bring him back from the dead. It is just very difficult to decide what is equal nerfing, so it usually isn't done.

[EvilElitest]

bu,t he has to play the music to activate the bloody combo, AND he has to take time to pull out a bottle take off the cork, and down the netire contents for it to take effect.
That arguement only owrks if other people have abilites that tkae as much time, and quite frankly ALL of Soras abilities take abotu as much time to activate as it does to press the buttoun.

1) When link plays music, the world stand still within his game.
2) Drinking a potion, particurally when your unable to be hurt, not problems


On other news

1) Nerfing at all is still nerfing, particularly when it is done to give one character a definite advantage. Both characters should be had full power
2) Vs. threads aren't about fairness. Its about how ever is better.


other link vs. Sora thread
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41204&highlight=link+sora

from
EE

[Oregano]

But both have been nerfed, and neither has been given an advantage, the complain against not being fair is that Sora has the ultima keyblade while Link only has the Master Sword. Also that Link can't be ressurected automatically time and time again.

Looking at the other thread, the Keyblade is still a Blade, it's not just a big key, that's just for symbolism.

Key phrase there EE "In his game", we're not talking game mechanics.

EDIT: Also as VS threads are a discussion it is about fairness, we're discussing(supposedly objectively) who is better, so we have to be fair.

[Dorizzit]

FFfanboy, true or not the purpose of this thread is not insulting people you dislike.

[Fan]

FFfanboy, true or not the purpose of this thread is not insulting people you dislike.
I wasn't trying to insult him. It was just an observance from his previous threads, and statements. I'll delete the post though if it looked like an insult becuase that was nowhere near what it was intended to be.

[EvilElitest]

EE doesn't care about "whats fair" Oregano he just likes tipping EVERYTHING massively in Links Favor even if it means ignoring someone elses argument that he cant counter. (*points to the Cloud versus Link thread when I mentioned the infinte knights of the round combo which he pluied with basicl "I have no idea what your talking about, oh,and I lopve the giants mask.)

I'm not trying to put things in link's favor, i want both at full power. The fact that link wins when that happens is inconsequential. I'm not putting things in link's favor, nor do i have a pro link agenda. I want a proper fight. Just because i know how to put certain characters at the fullest of their potienal doesn't make my arguments any less valid.
from
EE
edit
Don't try to live up to your name please, its annoying. I based my arguments about ability and quality of the characters, not personal preference.

[Artemician]

1) Nerfing at all is still nerfing, particularly when it is done to give one character a definite advantage. Both characters should be had full power
2) Vs. threads aren't about fairness. Its about how ever is better.

Wrong. Vs Threads serve the same purpose as any other thread: as an outlet for entertainment. If one side is somehow "disadvantaged" to guarantee an entertaining discussion, so be it.

In this case, whether it's even "nerfing" is debateable. It's setting a common agenda for debate to facilitate discussion. The "Super Link" that people like to pull out doesn't exist, and is nothing more than a construct. We know for a fact that there are multiple Links, and to try to aggregate them together is not only stupid, it doensn't allow for any debate due to the inconsitencies it produces.

Zaphrasz was comparing the different Links earlier, and evaluating them on their own merit. That is the way to go.

As an aside...


And i know for a fact that magic can be in unlimited amounts if you use the potion. Denying evidence doesn't make it untrue
...

This is sora's personality, not you. Sora is a moron, in game with massive emotional problems. Not a contest

We know for a fact that if you don't press the button to turn off the Form, you stay in it. Denying evidence doesn't make it untrue.

[Fan]

I'm not trying to put things in link's favor, i want both at full power. The fact that link wins when that happens is inconsequential. I'm not putting things in link's favor, nor do i have a pro link agenda. I want a proper fight. Just because i know how to put certain characters at the fullest of their potienal doesn't make my arguments any less valid.
from
EE
edit
Don't try to live up to your name please, its annoying. I based my arguments about ability and quality of the characters, not personal preference.
The thing is you DO ignore peoples arguements when you A: Don't understand them. B:They outpower house whoever you happen to be rooting for.
I don't have a problem with you EE, and I find you to be one of the most intellegent board members in existance. I just feel that you tend to drag things out, and from what previous threads have shown you tend to ignore poeples arguements when they provide a way that wins. back on topic.

Back on topic:
I believe that each person has been nerfed equally with Link being denied his 6 days of lunacy, and Sora being denied the ability to move faster then the speed of light, and claeving enitre buildings made out of steel in half.

[Oregano]

But the only reason Link would win is a REAALLLY Cheesy tactic, that probably wasn't intended in the game, so Link probably wouldn't use that tactic, that's a player construction.

That's why that isn't fair. Mortal Draw is fair, because Link would do that, it's just questionable whether it would instantly kill Sora(or any other character, who would constitute a boss).

EDIT: I agree with Artemician that the comparison of the individual Links vs Sora was probably and intelligent move and there's only one that wasn't a definate result.

Therefore, we should discuss Wind Waker and try to come to a definate results as to would win, for the sake of discussion.

[Fan]

But the only reason Link would win is a REAALLLY Cheesy tactic, that probably wasn't intended in the game, so Link probably wouldn't use that tactic, that's a player construction.

That's why that isn't fair. Mortal Draw is fair, because Link would do that, it's just questionable whether it would instantly kill Sora(or any other character, who would constitute a boss).

EDIT: I agree with Artemician that the comparison of the individual Links vs Sora was probably and intelligent move and there's only one that wasn't a definate result.

Therefore, we should discuss Wind Waker and try to come to a definate results as to would win, for the sake of discussion.

Indeed onward for sanity!:smallbiggrin:

[Dorizzit]

Alright, you want to specifically use the WW Link for this thread?

[Artemician]

But the only reason Link would win is a REAALLLY Cheesy tactic, that probably wasn't intended in the game, so Link probably wouldn't use that tactic, that's a player construction.

That's why that isn't fair. Mortal Draw is fair, because Link would do that, it's just questionable whether it would instantly kill Sora(or any other character, who would constitute a boss).

Hmmm.

But how do you know to what extent a character will use a tactic in-game?

This argument came up in the Cloud vs Link thread, where people were arguing that Cloud wouldn't exploit the reach granted by the Buster Sword to strike at Link with impunity. That argument was never resolved (due to the thread's closure), and I do wish that it was, because it's still relevant here.

[Fan]

Hmmm.

But how do you know to what extent a character will use a tactic in-game?

This argument came up in the Cloud vs Link thread, where people were arguing that Cloud wouldn't exploit the reach granted by the Buster Sword to strike at Link with impunity. That argument was never resolved (due to the thread's closure), and I do wish that it was, because it's still relevant here.
Actually the thread is still open, and its stil lexists here on the media boards.

On a seperate note why would link automatiocly use mortal draw as a start to his combat with a opponent. With his talk of "honor" would he not actually attempt to beat him in a straight up sowrd fight, and atempt to whack him with a sharp stick to death?

[Oregano]

I think that would be the best choice, as we are generally unsure about who would win, although it has been motioned that Link has the upper hand.

@Artemician: I was making the assumption because the invincibility "cheat" would make the game and story trival and turn Link into a Mary Sue. Mortal Draw is a technique taught to Link for use. There's logic and then there's tactics that only an outsider looking in would know.

EDIT: Link probably wouldn't use it, unless he had to, like he was being beat badly, I don't see Link as the type to take a life willy nilly, but that's a bias opinion.

[Artemician]

Actually the thread is still open, and its stil lexists here on the media boards.

But I'm not going to touch it with a 11-foot pole. It has degenerated to the point that considering it Unofficially Closed is a mercy to all parties.


@Artemician: I was making the assumption because the invincibility "cheat" would make the game and story trival and turn Link into a Mary Sue. Mortal Draw is a technique taught to Link for use. There's logic and then there's tactics that only an outsider looking in would know.

EDIT: Link probably wouldn't use it, unless he had to, like he was being beat badly, I don't see Link as the type to take a life willy nilly, but that's a bias opinion.


Honestly, I agree with you, but I'm just saying that you're going to have to bear this axiom in mind whenever you (generalized you, applies to everyone debating) ascribe actions to each character, and such.

Just because the Player, out-of-universe, can do something, it doesn't necessarily mean the Character, inside the Universe, will.

[Oregano]

I think that's the reason there will be a Mediator in the plad for future vs threads.

So, I'm not really familiar with Wind Waker, can anyone fill me on some of the details?

[Fan]

I think that's the reason there will be a Mediator in the plad for future vs threads.

So, I'm not really familiar with Wind Waker, can anyone fill me on some of the details?

I kinda hated that game with a passion, but he can maniulate the wind, and control little useless thingies with his baton. He has a giant leaf fan thing that allows him to fly, and lotsa jelly. As well as a talking ship. (thats all I know. :sweatdrop:)

[EvilElitest]

Wrong. Vs Threads serve the same purpose as any other thread: as an outlet for entertainment. If one side is somehow "disadvantaged" to guarantee an entertaining discussion, so be it.

Its dishonest. For example, Kenshin without a sword vs. Shisho. Who wins? Link without any weapons, as well as being blind, deaf, and .....more mute against Seph at full power. It isn't honest and you don't get a fair match. The exception is if you acknowledged taht the person would win if they weren't nerfed For example, Link vs. Kenshin, at full power link would win. However, after making that point clear, i then, for hte sake of fairness, make this a fight between Kenshin (OVA) and Link without any items/magic, thus making it a battle of skill only




In this case, whether it's even "nerfing" is debateable. It's setting a common agenda for debate to facilitate discussion. The "Super Link" that people like to pull out doesn't exist, and is nothing more than a construct. We know for a fact that there are multiple Links, and to try to aggregate them together is not only stupid, it doensn't allow for any debate due to the inconsitencies it produces.
Link is essentially the same character appearing again and again. Putting people at full power with everything they have is the norm in vs. threads, the LK, the Wk, Sauron, Seph, Sora, ect all get their best height peak conditions cannon powers.


Zaphrasz was comparing the different Links earlier, and evaluating them on their own merit. That is the way to go.

As an aside...
each link is pretty much the same, Its link in different times/places



We know for a fact that if you don't press the button to turn off the Form, you stay in it. Denying evidence doesn't make it untrue.

I didn't didn't deny it at all, where did you get that conclusion. I'm simply saying that it doesn't even the odds enough to make a difference





The thing is you DO ignore peoples arguements when you A: Don't understand them. B:They outpower house whoever you happen to be rooting for.
A) I certainly do understand them. I also see the flaws in them. What you do is more like your statements, because you've actually ignored some of link's powers. I admit that link uses absurdly cheap powers and abilities, they do however give him the major advantage
2) I don't root for anyone, because i don't think that Vs. threads define a character's actual quality. If my favorite characters lose a vs. thread, i don't feel like it weakens them in some way or makes them less interesting. Edward Elric would lose to Hellsing's main character, that doesn't make me like the vampire better than Ed


I don't have a problem with you EE, and I find you to be one of the most intellegent board members in existance. I just feel that you tend to drag things out, and from what previous threads have shown you tend to ignore poeples arguements when they provide a way that wins. back on topic.

Eh? I am know for meta posts where i adress every single point in the last few pages one at a time, how does that mean i ignore stuff in order to win. I don't agree, because i regonize flaws, but taht doesn't mean i'm ignoring points.


Back on topic:
I believe that each person has been nerfed equally with Link being denied his 6 days of lunacy, and Sora being denied the ability to move faster then the speed of light, and claeving enitre buildings made out of steel in half.

Nerfing is nerfing. The fact that they are so powerful when unnerfed doesn't make a difference. And if you are so confident abotu Sora's powers, then why not put them both at full power to duke it out then?




But the only reason Link would win is a REAALLLY Cheesy tactic, that probably wasn't intended in the game, so Link probably wouldn't use that tactic, that's a player construction.
1) The fact that it is cheesy doesn't make a difference, guns are cheezy in real life combat, taht doesn't make them any less effective
2) Link has no personality. So his entire being is basically what the best link player in the world want it to be.

Why WW link Just but both of them at full power, or failing that, the link from OoT, because he has the most direct sequels
from
EE

[Oregano]

Link does have a personality if you haven't noticed, hence Triforce of Courage, he's courageous, you could play him as a coward but that's playing as Link. Just because he isn't fledged out very well doesn't mean he's omniscient, the whole point of navi(or the other companions) is to tell Link things he doesn't know so he obviously doesn't know everything.

and we're discussing Wind Waker Link because he's the one that is debatable and that's the point in the thread, discussion and debate.

[Fan]

Its dishonest. For example, Kenshin without a sword vs. Shisho. Who wins? Link without any weapons, as well as being blind, deaf, and .....more mute against Seph at full power. It isn't honest and you don't get a fair match. The exception is if you acknowledged taht the person would win if they weren't nerfed For example, Link vs. Kenshin, at full power link would win. However, after making that point clear, i then, for hte sake of fairness, make this a fight between Kenshin (OVA) and Link without any items/magic, thus making it a battle of skill only


Link is essentially the same character appearing again and again. Putting people at full power with everything they have is the norm in vs. threads, the LK, the Wk, Sauron, Seph, Sora, ect all get their best height peak conditions cannon powers.


each link is pretty much the same, Its link in different times/places



I didn't didn't deny it at all, where did you get that conclusion. I'm simply saying that it doesn't even the odds enough to make a difference




A) I certainly do understand them. I also see the flaws in them. What you do is more like your statements, because you've actually ignored some of link's powers. I admit that link uses absurdly cheap powers and abilities, they do however give him the major advantage
2) I don't root for anyone, because i don't think that Vs. threads define a character's actual quality. If my favorite characters lose a vs. thread, i don't feel like it weakens them in some way or makes them less interesting. Edward Elric would lose to Hellsing's main character, that doesn't make me like the vampire better than Ed


Eh? I am know for meta posts where i adress every single point in the last few pages one at a time, how does that mean i ignore stuff in order to win. I don't agree, because i regonize flaws, but taht doesn't mean i'm ignoring points.


Nerfing is nerfing. The fact that they are so powerful when unnerfed doesn't make a difference. And if you are so confident abotu Sora's powers, then why not put them both at full power to duke it out then?



1) The fact that it is cheesy doesn't make a difference, guns are cheezy in real life combat, taht doesn't make them any less effective
2) Link has no personality. So his entire being is basically what the best link player in the world want it to be.

Why WW link Just but both of them at full power, or failing that, the link from OoT, because he has the most direct sequels
from
EE
I was naiming the time you had TOTTALY ignored by mine, and Setras arguements in FF realted threads. Setras in the Speh V.S. Link thread, and my own on the knights of the round infinte combo. Which I'll quote your repsonse NOW>


I have no idea what you said

on other news, i love the giant's mask
from
EE



on other news, i love the giant's mask
from
EE
[/QUOTE]

[Artemician]

<Post moved to "Vs Link Threads Discussion", as it's more relevant there.>

[TempusCCK]

I'm wondering where the "Link is Slow" argument is coming from. Sora, while a speed demon in some of his forms, is really not all that much faster in my perception of the two games.

Link, in OoT, while targeted an enemy, can flip and leap around the screen circling his enemy, with his shield facing them. And when that shield is the Mirror Shield, not only does it block all magical attacks, but it reflects some of them back.

Reflecting the enemies attack is a time honored tradition in Zelda.

Sora is fast, but I doubt he'd be able to get through Link's defenses by running around him and shooting off magic, Link has the advantage in that none of Soras attacks can really effect him.

Another argument I am taking issue with is the "Link is so cumbersome with his ranged weapons." That's inane, when targeted, you can time it out perfectly in OoT to hit with the boomerang or the bow easily, and then hit the shield back in an instant.

Having played both Kingdom Hearts games, all the -ga spells do take time to travel, considering the fact that Link, if he picks his moment against CasterSora, can hit him with the bow and have his Mirror Shield back up to block the spell by instantly hitting the block button can completely negate CasterSora.

Against SmasherSora, it's a different story, alot of you claim that if Sora get's Link into the air, he's doomed. Great, but Sora can't knock every enemy into the air, just like Link can't Mortal Strike all enemies. Let's assume that, for fairness, Link is also a boss that cannot be knocked into the air. Now, what can Sora do? He can attack really fast, Link, with his shield up and properly strafing, is nigh unhittable, and then can instantly throw his sword out and bring some pain. Great, but Sora swings faster, so if Link were to throw out his sword he might get stuck in a damage loop that spells doom for him. However, we forget the noble Boomerang, that instant stun piece of goodness. Do we count this? Doesn't stun everyone. If we do count it, SmasherSora is doomed because of Links defenses and hit and run tactics, if we don't, then it's going to rely on some of Links other nasty tricks, such as the Shield Bash, which also stuns, Spin Attack, which with even a modest charge up can still hit Sora in melee range ( and Link doesn't lower his shield while charging!) and the various other techniques learned from the master in Tp. Some of which really open up pain on another swordsman. Really though, for this to work, Link just has to survive Valor Form, which is going to be Soras main boost of speed, after that, Soras novice swings are really going to eat it compared to Links defense.

-Of note: to be completely fair since Sora has everything from KH 1 and KH2, I have elected to choose two games with which to use Links things. MM and OoT would have been more fitting, but MM is honestly unfair. TP and OoT are set in the same world-ish with the same Hero in a different but congruent and wierd to fathom timeframe, so are thematically nearly the same game. Much like KH1 and KH2.

[EvilElitest]

I was naiming the time you had TOTTALY ignored by mine, and Setras arguements in FF realted threads. Setras in the Speh V.S. Link thread, and my own on the knights of the round infinte combo. Which I'll quote your repsonse NOW>


on other news, i love the giant's mask
from
EE
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, because i couldn't understand your spelling. At all, i really couldn't get what you were saying. I'm not one to talk about spelling i know, but i really couldn't make our your point.




Link does have a personality if you haven't noticed, hence Triforce of Courage, he's courageous, you could play him as a coward but that's playing as Link. Just because he isn't fledged out very well doesn't mean he's omniscient, the whole point of navi(or the other companions) is to tell Link things he doesn't know so he obviously doesn't know everything.
We know he is brave and he is mute your right. Navi states the obvious, you don't need him. However, he basically acts as the player commands him, and as long as he is able to (I mean, he can't turn into a giant turtle) he will be able to


and we're discussing Wind Waker Link because he's the one that is debatable and that's the point in the thread, discussion and debate.
why is the only one that's debatable?





At this point, I'm just going to chew on it and say "Who cares?" Who cares whether a fictional character really would beat another character? What people care about, is having a good time shouting back and forth at each other. If putting Kenshin without a sword versus Shishio is entertaining, people will debate it. That's all that is to it.
Fine, but it doesn't prove anything. Watching Kefka at full power destory Gollum isn't particurally fair but it is "Fair" as Gollum can only do what he can do in the books. Watchin Kefta stripped of all his powers (and missing hands) fight Gollum is rather dissapointing is it not



Firstly, someone born in another "different place and time", as you said yourself, is essentially a different person. All the more so if, as Link, you have different physical qualities and equipment.
Um, height. That about the most phyical difference you get, and as link can change his age, it doesn't make much of a difference. Unless your refering to graphics


Secondly, nobody gives a whit about giving people the peak conditions in Versus Threads as is, but rather, because most of the time it makes for a more entertaining discussion.
How is seeing who, at hte top of their game, at hte very true pinnacle of their power, they at the true highest power of their, being that is very interesting.





1) Cheeziness usually (usually!) makes for something that is not entertaining to discuss.

2) I wanted my Link to murder Zelda. I wanted my Link to drop his sword and punch people. I wanted my Link to grow a mustache.These things never happened, even though I wanted him to.

Link has a vague personality. That does not mean he has no personality. We know there are some things he won't do, and that there are some things he likes to do
1) Depends. I mean, the essense of the cheeseness can be interesting. THe point is it does let him win
Now if you want nerfed link, fine, but at least acknolaged he'd win with cheese.
2) Within game limitations of course. Within a vs. thread, he could drop a sword an punch people (he does box at one point in the games) and he does sumo wrestle. Grow a mustache, meh
3) what does he like to do? Fight and solve puzzles. He does have a few things he wont' do, but not much
from
EE

[Oregano]

Technically we could just count KH 2, we haven't used anything for KH 1 and we decided that Wind Waker is the one we compare. I have noticed that Link is fast but he has never been as fast as Sora is in KH 2, especially in Valour Form, and Link can't do both at exactly the same time where as Sora can.

Link is plain outmaneuvered here, his Shield can block any attack though(actually is it "any" attack?) so Sora would have to get behind him to attack, however Link can't attack whilst defending so it's either a stalemate or Sora wins.

EDIT: Wind Waker was the one Zaphrasz(sorry if it's spelt wrong) couldn't come to a definite conclusion about, we're going to help him come to a dfinite conclusion.

[EvilElitest]

Technically we could just count KH 2, we haven't used anything for KH 1 and we decided that Wind Waker is the one we compare. I have noticed that Link is fast but he has never been as fast as Sora is in KH 2, especially in Valour Form, and Link can't do both at exactly the same time where as Sora can.

Link is plain outmaneuvered here, his Shield can block any attack though(actually is it "any" attack?) so Sora would have to get behind him to attack, however Link can't attack whilst defending so it's either a stalemate or Sora wins.

why wind waker link? really, why? If you have to use a link, use the OoT link
since he is in the most direct sequel games
from
EE

[Oregano]

That's not what we're discussing, please actually read the posts.

We're discussing Wind Waker becase that's the one that's in dispute, so it's the most worth debating.

[EvilElitest]

That's not what we're discussing, please actually read the posts.

We're discussing Wind Waker becase that's the one that's in dispute, so it's the most worth debating.

and i'm asking why are we going with the Wind waker of all games?
from
EE

[Knaight]

Agreed, Sora is far more powerful. Although the majoras mask link with the fierce deities mask might be able to pull it off. Although I can't say I've ever seen the point in these discussions, as most people just say that the character they like more is more powerful, where I don't think that makes the character better. Sure Sora is better than most links, but I like the legend of zelda games better than kingdom hearts. Samus is more powerful than master chief by the end of most games, but that doesn't make metroid better. I like it more, but thats primarily because I find them more fun. Master chief is more powerful than the doom guy, that doesn't make Halo better than Doom. Sephiroth is more powerful than Simba ib Sidn(in the Journey of the Catechist books, the other main character thats not Hamunasese, Etjole Ehomba is probably just as good as him.), that doesn't make him a better character.

[Oregano]

And I've answered numerous times.


Wind Waker was the one Zaphrasz(sorry if it's spelt wrong) couldn't come to a definite conclusion about, we're going to help him come to a dfinite conclusion.


We're discussing Wind Waker becase that's the one that's in dispute, so it's the most worth debating.


and we're discussing Wind Waker Link because he's the one that is debatable and that's the point in the thread, discussion and debate.


EDIT: I agree with Artemician that the comparison of the individual Links vs Sora was probably and intelligent move and there's only one that wasn't a definate result.

Therefore, we should discuss Wind Waker and try to come to a definate results as to would win, for the sake of discussion.


I think that would be the best choice, as we are generally unsure about who would win, although it has been motioned that Link has the upper hand.

[EvilElitest]

And I've answered numerous times.

I'm asking why choose wind waker link of all links. If you want a more definiate answer, OoT link is far better
from
EE

[Oregano]

Wind Waker: Link probably wins. Magic Armor allows him to shrug off any attack he wants, the ability to parry most attacks, greater speed than any other Link, and the strength to carry weapons that make Cloud's buster sword look reasonable.

We can actually discuss this reasonably and come to a conclusion.


Ocarina of Time: Not entirely sure. It depends on what we consider gameplay elements. The damage done by his sword in this game is absurd, and he can block damn near anything. Magic arrows are kind of slow in this game, so unless he gets a lucky ice arrow shot, they don't do any good. Naryu's Love is his only real good spell in an arena matchup as well. Mirror shield can absorb magic attacks and fire them back at Sora. Hookshot is too slow, and boomerang has uses that are too limited.

This would end up as an argument, not a discussion, plus Zaphrasz has an idea who might win if it's Wind Waker where he doesn't for OoT.

Question, not meant offensively, do you just want to use OoT Zelda because he's more powerful than Wind Waker Link?

[Knaight]

It probably has to do with continuity. Wind waker has its own little world, with hyrule being an ancient thing. The oracle games also do this, then Majora's mask has termina. So that leaves ocarina of time, the original, the second one, and Twilight princess. Twilight princess is the only one with wolf mechanics, and horseback being what it is so its out, the second one has magic not seen anywhere else so its out. That leaves the original and ocarina of time, and ocarina of time fits into the major storyline, as a 3d contender while the 2d games are scattered around. Then there is stuff like minish cap, which I don't even know where it fits it.

[Oregano]

But continuity won't matter if we're discussing one game.

It might seem like an odd question as well, but EE asked why the Wind Waker so many time, I want to ask, why the opposition to using Wind Waker in a Vs thread against Sora.

[freerangetroll]

But continuity won't matter if we're discussing one game.

It might seem like an odd question as well, but EE asked why the Wind Waker so many time, I want to ask, why the opposition to using Wind Waker in a Vs thread against Sora.

Because you are taking one of if not the weakest Link for the fight. I see EE's point. Every link thread devolves into people nerfing him or taking weak incarnations just so the other person can win. Makes them pointless. Even beyond the usual VS thread pointlessness.

Edit: Oddly enough it also tends to happen when his opponent is a Square creation.

[Dihan]

Wind Waker Link = Phantom Hourglass Link. It seems that people have forgotten that fact.

Does Link get his boomerang that can be manually controlled? :smalltongue:

You should also clarify the title from "Celda" as this lumps together Minish Cap Link, Four Swords Link and the aforementioned Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass Link.

As it stands, we currently have four Links who can control time, wind and can shrink. :smalltongue:
I realise this isn't the case.

[Oregano]

But we're not saying that Wind Waker Link means every Link, and he's only had bottles took off him, Sora's had most of his stuff took off him. Zaphrasz thinks that WW Link will probably beat Sora but isn't sure, so we're trying to discuss this.

EDIT: Yer maybe it isn't fair to include Four Swords, only one Link at a time please, it's up to other people if we include the other ones.

[freerangetroll]

But we're not saying that Wind Waker Link means every Link, and he's only had bottles took off him, Sora's had most of his stuff took off him. Zaphrasz thinks that WW Link will probably beat Sora but isn't sure, so we're trying to discuss this.

EDIT: Yer maybe it isn't fair to include Four Swords, only one Link at a time please, it's up to other people if we include the other ones.

How to explain this. Link's power comes from his equipment in most cases. So you strip equipment you strip Link's power level. Sora while not able to use his uber powerful abilities still has "native" abilities that are extremely powerful. Link doesn't have any of that. He is fast and strong yes, but if you don't use one of the magic using versions of him then by default he has everything taken away form him that makes him powerful.

[Oregano]

As far as I know the only thing that's been took away from him is Respawn's.:smallconfused: He has all his weapons and other utility items.

EDIT: So still Sora has been nerfed more.

[freerangetroll]

As far as I know the only thing that's been took away from him is Respawn's.:smallconfused: He has all his weapons and other utility items.

EDIT: So still Sora has been nerfed more.


Ah then the op was changed. Link gets the magic armor. He wins. :(

Before anybody asks. It makes Link invincible using his magic power. Combo that with the skull hammer and then some sword poking.

[Dihan]

Wind Waker Link has the following at his disposal:

Master Sword
Mirror Shield
Hero's Bow (with normal, light, ice and fire arrows)
Bombs (normal and Bombchu* variety)
Hookshot
Skull Hammer
Boomerang
Shovel*
Grappling Hook
Deku Leaf
The Wind Waker
Magic Armour
Iron Boots
Power Bracelets
Hero's Charm

*Items he uses in Phantom Hourglass

[Oregano]

The OP was changed form a picture of TP Link to WW Link, that's about it. Elaborate please, otherwise it's not a discussion, I don't know what the Magic Armour is.

@V:You explained, can Sora not dispel it?

[freerangetroll]

The OP was changed form a picture of TP Link to WW Link, that's about it. Elaborate please, otherwise it's not a discussion, I don't know what the Magic Armour is.

Its an armor that allows complete invulnerability while link has magic left to use. How do you dispell an artifact?

[Oregano]

Well judging by it's name, it's magical and kind of like a status effect, I'm not too sure even if Dispel's in KH but he may be able to nullify it.

[freerangetroll]

Well judging by it's name, it's magical and kind of like a status effect, I'm not too sure even if Dispel's in KH but he may be able to nullify it.

It is a native ability of the armor. Zelda games don't have status effects.:smallannoyed:

[Oregano]

Np, but you have to take into account that they are crossing over, other wise you could say "Thundaga doesn't exist in Zelda, therefore Link Wins"[/hyperbole]

How long does Link's Magic last, or is it as long as you don't actively use magic?

[freerangetroll]

Np, but you have to take into account that they are crossing over, other wise you could say "Thundaga doesn't exist in Zelda, therefore Link Wins"[/hyperbole]

How long does Link's Magic last, or is it as long as you don't actively use magic?

It drains magic. Doesn't really matter though, all Link has to do is either A.) wait for Sora to close and then activate it, or B.) wait for Sora to start casting and activate it. In the first scenario link just stabs Sora, in the second he puts an arrow through Sora's head while letting Sora's magic wash over him.

As to me saying Thunderga doesn't exist yadda yadda. No. I'm saying you can't classify an ability as a status effect when Links universe doesn't use status effects. Both games use big flashy explosions of magic. Only one has the status effect mechanic. It would be like a Link backer expecting Zora to start flashing weakpoints mid battle.

[Oregano]

But one hit shouldn't kill either though(they're both shown to be very resilient), Sora can dodge and cast as well, scenario one, there Sora gets stabbed and possibly loses, scenario two, Sora might dodge, might not.

Next question, can Link deactivate it or must he let run out?

EDIT: Thundaga was an exaggerated example, and it is a status effect, even if it isn't called one, it makes it so you can't lose health, that changes your status, also Link can be paralysed, which means status effects exist.

[freerangetroll]

But one hit shouldn't kill either though(they're both shown to be very resilient), Sora can dodge and cast as well, scenario one, there Sora gets stabbed and possibly loses, scenario two, Sora might dodge, might not.

Next question, can Link deactivate it or must he let run out?

he can turn it on and off.

[Oslecamo]

Just to say that Link normally fights enemies that really don't care about would be fatal injuries.

Ganondorf, in particular, had a giant tower come crashing down over him and got impaled by a spear later and still kept going like it was some minor scratch.

Sora, on the other hand, is human as far as I remember. No soul feeded genetically engineered soldier like Cloud was. So if cuting some vital part of Sora doesn't kill it, I would like someone to point what does.

EDIT:As why Link is resilient, well, he does feeds on the souls(hearts) of big nasty monsters. Plus he isn't really human, pointy ears and all.

[Oregano]

That definately gives Link an advantage, as he can turn it on when Sora tries to attack then instantly turn it off, the only way I can think of Sora even standin up to it in Melee is to keep attacking and dodging(which may not be possible) and his MP regenerates, what abotu Link's Magic, does it regenerate?

EDIT: Sora's the chosen Keyblade Wielder, and I don't know if it's official exlanation but he grows in power as he kills heartless I think(I haven't played the game in ages).

It's also a bit foggy and not clarified but I think Sora has more than one heart.:smallconfused: But that might just be a theory I've heard.

@V: Thanks, see discussing it is fun!:smallbiggrin:

[freerangetroll]

That definately gives Link an advantage, as he can turn it on when Sora tries to attack then instantly turn it off, the only way I can think of Sora even standin up to it in Melee is to keep attacking and dodging(which may not be possible) and his MP regenerates, what abotu Link's Magic, does it regenerate?

I'll look that up, haven't played the game in forever.

[Jothki]

Everyone seems to ignore the Reflect series (probably because they ignored it when they were playing the game), but it's a very powerful means of defense; as long as Sora has magic left he can block pretty much any instantaneous damage at will. I can't think of any attacks Link has that couldn't be blocked by Reflect, except possibly the medallions.

[Oregano]

I thought reflect only reflected Magic, or is it different in Kingdom Hearts?

[Zaphrasz]

So, going with Wind Waker Link, eh?

Magic Armor is pretty tough. Instead of taking damage, he loses magic. He doesn't get the attack bonus due to Grandma's soup, since you specified no bottles. He can, however, do this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNXh6WwOJwk). It takes some time to set up, but he's invincible, so he can take the hits. He can also auto parry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M73kpJv8tWw) any attack, so long as he times it right. He also has the mask that lets him tell how many hit points his opponent has, so he gains a tactical edge there.

[Oregano]

I'm going to have to stop for a while to get an essay done, but keep discussing and don't just argue for one side! does anyone know anything Sora can do?

That Hurricane Spin looks deadly by the way.

[Zaphrasz]

Yeah, strangely enough, it doesn't harm the guy you learn it from. Nothing you do does. I don't believe we should use Phantom Hourglass and Wind Waker Link together, though. Even though it is the same guy, it is unclear whether or not the events of the game actually happened

[Dihan]

I don't believe we should use Phantom Hourglass and Wind Waker Link together, though. Even though it is the same guy, it is unclear whether or not the events of the game actually happened

If you've seen the ending then you should know that it did happen. Link isn't just holding the Phantom Hourglass, you even see Linebeck's ship.

[Zaphrasz]

My mistake then. Don't remember that game too much.

[Anteros]

I'm sorry but the cheese arguments are just stupid. Sora is invincible while he is doing his dodge roll...do you see anyone saying he will just dodge roll until Link gets tired? No. Because it's stupid.

[Dorizzit]

That might work...except Sora would get tired from dodge rolling much faster than Link would from standing around.

[Fan]

I'm going to have to stop for a while to get an essay done, but keep discussing and don't just argue for one side! does anyone know anything Sora can do?

That Hurricane Spin looks deadly by the way.
I know alot of his moves.

You guys seem to be completely ingoring Soras number 1 advantage while in Soras Valor form he DUAL WIELDS the key blades gets a 2.50X speed boost at his highest level, and a 3.0X damage boost. So you have to double Sora's speed, and triple his damage dealing capabilities for about 5 minuets, and add in air juggling as he uses blitz to launch him into the air.

[Anteros]

That might work...except Sora would get tired from dodge rolling much faster than Link would from standing around.

Sorry, but there's no game mechanic for getting tired, so obviously Sora is a being who knows no fatigue. I know it's a ridiculous argument, but I'm just trying to emulate the Link fanbase.

[freerangetroll]

Sorry, but there's no game mechanic for getting tired, so obviously Sora is a being who knows no fatigue. I know it's a ridiculous argument, but I'm just trying to emulate the Link fanbase.

If anything, its the link fans who aren't going off pure mechanics. Every mechanically based argument like 2.5 attack speed, or status effects, etc have come from FF/Square fans.

All the link people are saying he's a better swordsman then Sora, can reflect Sora's magic attacks, and becomes invincible using the Magic Armour. You seem a bit bitter.

[Fan]

If anything, its the link fans who aren't going off pure mechanics. Every mechanically based argument like 2.5 attack speed, or status effects, etc have come from FF/Square fans.

All the link people are saying he's a better swordsman then Sora, can reflect Sora's magic attacks, and becomes invincible using the Magic Armour. You seem a bit bitter.
Actually the magic armor does in fact NOT make in invulerable just makes him damage resistant, and with the number of attacks Sora can deal out in about 3 minuets his damage resistance would be neglible.

[freerangetroll]

Actually the magic armor does in fact NOT make in invulerable just makes him damage resistant, and with the number of attacks Sora can deal out in about 3 minuets his damage resistance would be neglible.

http://www.zeldaelements.net/9items.shtml

Oh, yes it does. Read the description. I believe invulnerable means... not able to be damaged? Its about halfway down the page.

[Anteros]

If anything, its the link fans who aren't going off pure mechanics. Every mechanically based argument like 2.5 attack speed, or status effects, etc have come from FF/Square fans.

All the link people are saying he's a better swordsman then Sora, can reflect Sora's magic attacks, and becomes invincible using the Magic Armour. You seem a bit bitter.

I'm not bitter, I'm just tired of every Vs. thread involving Link turning into his proponents trying to use some glitch or cheat to prove that Link is invincible, and I'm simply trying to show that the same thing can be done for the people he faces as well. I should note, that I am not referring to the armor here, but things like the hookshot combo mentioned earlier or the chateua+Romani (spelling?) combo.

[freerangetroll]

I'm not bitter, I'm just tired of every Vs. thread involving Link turning into his proponents trying to use some glitch or cheat to prove that Link is invincible, and I'm simply trying to show that the same thing can be done for the people he faces as well. I should note, that I am not referring to the armor here, but things like the hookshot combo mentioned earlier or the chateua+Romani (spelling?) combo.


Then people should stop trying to match him up with FF/Square characters already. Its like link has faced the same person a dozen times already.

[TempusCCK]

Eh, Wind Waker Link is nerfed in such a way that you can't possibly consider it a fair fight. If you insist on taking Wind Waker Link then I insist on having KH1 Sora, it's just unfair.

So, since we're making the assumption that Sora has Valor Form, for fairness's sake, I'm assuming the OoT Link.

Also, I don't care how fast Sora is in valor form he can't possibly run fast enough to get behind a defending Link, all Link has to do is turn in a short circle and watch Soras attack bounce off of his shield until Valor Form runs out, then it's all over, Soras regular attacks are not fast enough to beat the shield-sword combo.

Sora's swings in long cumbersome strokes, and just like the big fat enemies, recoils when he is blocked, that's more than enough time for Link to swing out his sword and whack Sora upside the head, it's what Link does. Sora can't possibly juggle Link because he can't get through his defenses long enough to actually get a solid blow, just like fighting the big fat Heartless.

[Fan]

http://www.zeldaelements.net/9items.shtml

Oh, yes it does. Read the description. I believe invulnerable means... not able to be damaged? Its about halfway down the page.

Thats a danmed vauge descprition, and i think its not prmanent it just lasts until your out of magic, and with WW Link not having any bottels I think hell run out ratehr fast.

[freerangetroll]

Eh, Wind Waker Link is nerfed in such a way that you can't possibly consider it a fair fight. If you insist on taking Wind Waker Link then I insist on having KH1 Sora, it's just unfair.

So, since we're making the assumption that Sora has Valor Form, for fairness's sake, I'm assuming the OoT Link.

Also, I don't care how fast Sora is in valor form he can't possibly run fast enough to get behind a defending Link, all Link has to do is turn in a short circle and watch Soras attack bounce off of his shield until Valor Form runs out, then it's all over, Soras regular attacks are not fast enough to beat the shield-sword combo.

Sora's swings in long cumbersome strokes, and just like the big fat enemies, recoils when he is blocked, that's more than enough time for Link to swing out his sword and whack Sora upside the head, it's what Link does. Sora can't possibly juggle Link because he can't get through his defenses long enough to actually get a solid blow, just like fighting the big fat Heartless.

Nah, WW Link with Mirror shield and the Magic Armour is more then enough to deal with Sora.

[freerangetroll]

Thats a danmed vauge descprition, and i think its not prmanent it just lasts until your out of magic, and with WW Link not having any bottels I think hell run out ratehr fast.

Link can activate it and deactivate it at will. Incoming sword blow *immune* drops it. *incoming sword blow* immune. So on and so forth. Even without that, it last for two minutes (maybe longer) without replenishing.

I loved using that to cheese the game. Also, rather vague? Invulnerable is not vague. It is a very straight forward meaning.

[Fan]

Link can activate it and deactivate it at will. Incoming sword blow *immune* drops it. *incoming sword blow* immune. So on and so forth. Even without that, it last for two minutes (maybe longer) without replenishing.

I loved using that to cheese the game. Also, rather vague? Invulnerable is not vague. It is a very straight forward meaning.

Yeah you gotta consder how fast those strikes are coming in though, and the dula wiedling has to come in at some time. Seriously he is REALLY ast, and from what i've seen Links turning abilities in that game are about a quarter his movement speed in valor form/

[freerangetroll]

Yeah you gotta consder how fast those strikes are coming in though, and the dula wiedling has to come in at some time. Seriously he is REALLY ast, and from what i've seen Links turning abilities in that game are about a quarter his movement speed in valor form/

Okay, lets try this again. Link is invincible. Sora doesn't know he is invincible because there is no visual tell. Sora charges in and starts attacking in his flurry of blows. Link chuckles and stabilates Sora. -.-

Sora is outclassed.

Edit: Before you start with the "Sora won't just charge him argument", lets go over all the scenarios.

1.) Sora stays back and starts blasting off magic. Link reflects with Mirror shield. Stalemate and Sora runs out of magic.

2.) Sora goes all ultimate speedy and charges in. Starts landing blows and notices Link isn't getting hurt as Link starts ventilating him.

Those are Sora's options. he can't win.

[Fan]

Okay, lets try this again. Link is invincible. Sora doesn't know he is invincible because there is no visual tell. Sora charges in and starts attacking in his flurry of blows. Link chuckles and stabilates Sora. -.-

Sora is outclassed.

Edit: Before you start with the "Sora won't just charge him argument", lets go over all the scenarios.

1.) Sora stays back and starts blasting off magic. Link reflects with Mirror shield. Stalemate and Sora runs out of magic.

2.) Sora goes all ultimate speedy and charges in. Starts landing blows and notices Link isn't getting hurt as Link starts ventilating him.

Those are Sora's options. he can't win.

The forms last longer than Links magic armor, and sora is to fast for Link to hit EVER no matter what if hes moving in a combat situation Sora wont get hit. Hell I went through the ENTIRE GAME in Kh2 without getting hit more than 5 times.

[freerangetroll]

The forms last longer than Links magic armor, and sora is to fast for Link to hit EVER no matter what if hes moving in a combat situation Sora wont get hit. Hell I went through the ENTIRE GAME in Kh2 without getting hit more than 5 times.


Which for the fiftieth millionth time means jack squat. Since you aren't controlling Sora. He isn't fast enough to be hitting link and avoiding attacks like the whirlwind.

I may just give up in the face of stubborn intractability.

[Anteros]

Eh, Wind Waker Link is nerfed in such a way that you can't possibly consider it a fair fight. If you insist on taking Wind Waker Link then I insist on having KH1 Sora, it's just unfair.

So, since we're making the assumption that Sora has Valor Form, for fairness's sake, I'm assuming the OoT Link.

Also, I don't care how fast Sora is in valor form he can't possibly run fast enough to get behind a defending Link, all Link has to do is turn in a short circle and watch Soras attack bounce off of his shield until Valor Form runs out, then it's all over, Soras regular attacks are not fast enough to beat the shield-sword combo.

Sora's swings in long cumbersome strokes, and just like the big fat enemies, recoils when he is blocked, that's more than enough time for Link to swing out his sword and whack Sora upside the head, it's what Link does. Sora can't possibly juggle Link because he can't get through his defenses long enough to actually get a solid blow, just like fighting the big fat Heartless.

"Eh, I'm going to completely ignore the entire structure of the thread thus far in order to further my own argument." We aren't discussing OOT because his cheeze overwhelms Sora. Most people agree that Link from OoT would most likely win, so there is no reason to discuss it. We are dicussing wind waker because it's the closest match up.

[Anteros]

Okay, lets try this again. Link is invincible. Sora doesn't know he is invincible because there is no visual tell. Sora charges in and starts attacking in his flurry of blows. Link chuckles and stabilates Sora. -.-

Sora is outclassed.

Edit: Before you start with the "Sora won't just charge him argument", lets go over all the scenarios.

1.) Sora stays back and starts blasting off magic. Link reflects with Mirror shield. Stalemate and Sora runs out of magic.

2.) Sora goes all ultimate speedy and charges in. Starts landing blows and notices Link isn't getting hurt as Link starts ventilating him.

Those are Sora's options. he can't win.


1. Sora won't run out of magic, he regains mana constantly. Also, can the mirror shield block something like a status effect? Things like the stop spell just hit the target, there is nothing to block. Now whether stop would effect Link we can debate, but if it does, instant win for Sora. This is only one spell. Lightning is an AoE that comes from above. Would Link be expecting that? Would the shield block it even if he put it in the way? (It kinda spreads out.) Sora has a lot of spells that wouldn't be cancelled by the mirror shield.

2. We see Sora take sword blows all the time without going down. He even specifically has an ability that keeps him from dying in one hit, and another that keeps him from dying in one combo of hits. It's pretty safe to assume that he is fairly durable. He also has defensive magic (aeroga) that cancels out a lot of the damage he takes. If he were to charge in and do nothing and get stabbed a few times as you say, I'm pretty sure he is fast enough to get out again and reassess the situation.

[freerangetroll]

1. Sora won't run out of magic, he regains mana constantly. Also, can the mirror shield block something like a status effect? Things like the stop spell just hit the target, there is nothing to block. Now whether stop would effect Link we can debate, but if it does, instant win for Sora. This is only one spell. Lightning is an AoE that comes from above. Would Link be expecting that? Would the shield block it even if he put it in the way? (It kinda spreads out.) Sora has a lot of spells that wouldn't be cancelled by the mirror shield.

Stop doesn't effect boss style creatures, since the consensus the whole fight is that the other is a "boss" it wouldn't work on him. Sora would also have to be dodging his own attacks while attacking since Link would be reflecting at him. Lightning attack? Activate magic armor. Yes the shield would block the area that was supposed to hit him if he blocked it.



2. We see Sora take sword blows all the time without going down. He even specifically has an ability that keeps him from dying in one hit. It's pretty safe to assume that he is fairly durable. He also has defensive magic (aeroga) that cancels out a lot of the damage he takes. If he were to charge in and do nothing and get stabbed a few times as you say, I'm pretty sure he is fast enough to get out again and reassess the situation.

Not a few times, whirlwinded, which if you watch the video is a lot more then a few times. People seem to think link is slow or something.

[Fan]

Stop doesn't effect boss style creatures, since the consensus the whole fight is that the other is a "boss" it wouldn't work on him. Sora would also have to be dodging his own attacks while attacking since Link would be reflecting at him. Lightning attack? Activate magic armor. Yes the shield would block the area that was supposed to hit him if he blocked it.



Not a few times, whirlwinded, which if you watch the video is a lot more then a few times. People seem to think link is slow or something.
Link IS slow in comaprison to Sora who is CRAZY fast. *points out the dodging, and reflecting of lasers*

[freerangetroll]

Link IS slow in comaprison to Sora who is CRAZY fast. *points out the dodging, and reflecting of lasers*

*points out the op in which those abilities are discounted*

They fell under action commands right?

[Fan]

*points out the op in which those abilities are discounted*

They fell under action commands right?

Actually no He dodges, and reflects them WITHOUT action commands sure they were genric monsters, and it required the use of the block abiity to the point of stupityd, but that he did.

[Anteros]

Stop doesn't effect boss style creatures, since the consensus the whole fight is that the other is a "boss" it wouldn't work on him. Sora would also have to be dodging his own attacks while attacking since Link would be reflecting at him. Lightning attack? Activate magic armor. Yes the shield would block the area that was supposed to hit him if he blocked it.



Not a few times, whirlwinded, which if you watch the video is a lot more then a few times. People seem to think link is slow or something.

I agree that stop probably wouldn't work, although it does work on some bosses. I was simply pointing out that Sora has spells that can bypass Link's shield. And I don't think Link would know to expect the lightning and activate his armor at first. I don't know if you've ever noticed, but lightning is pretty fast. :smallbiggrin: I think he would get hit by it at least once. Of course, it would take more than one hit to take him down. And as powerful as whirlwind is, I'd say it counts as one combo, which Sora specifically cannot be defeated by, although it would certainly hurt. Especially since Sora isn't allowed to heal in this.

Honestly I think you're right. One of Sora's biggest advantages is his ability to distance himself from his opponent and heal. He doesn't really have much of a chance against Link without that. Now, if you give Link his potions, and give Sora all of his magic, I think Sora can win through attrition. Gravity and cure are very, very powerful.

Edit: Also, why are we ignoring the things that Sora does during the reaction command scenes? Sure they are over the top, but no more so than some of the things that Link has done in the past. (Ok, maybe a little more.) And they are still part of the character.

[Oregano]

Glad to see the discusssion is still going on, has anyone had a chance to see if Link's magic regenerates?

This may becaome a deciding factor, but Sora will be being stabified all over for at least the beginning of the match.

I wonder if anyone can find any videos of the two(like the hurricane spin and anti-form ones) that shows how fast each of them are?

Another question when Link activates the armour does any damage normally affecting hits affect magic instead? Probably not, but it could be important.

[Fan]

I know its not the best qualty but its the best one I could find that displays alot of his moves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1A6cUGusJY&feature=related

[Dorizzit]

Edit: Also, why are we ignoring the things that Sora does during the reaction command scenes? Sure they are over the top, but no more so than some of the things that Link has done in the past. (Ok, maybe a little more.) And they are still part of the character.

Because they are the in game equivalent of cutscene power (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CutscenePowerToTheMax). If Link was able to cut a mountain in half in a cutscene, would we let him do it here? No, because it's a cutscene and not representative of his actual abilities. If it isn't part of normal gameplay, no go. (and I know reaction commands are, its their effects that aren't)

[Artemician]

Because they are the in game equivalent of cutscene power (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CutscenePowerToTheMax). If Link was able to cut a mountain in half in a cutscene, would we let him do it here? No, because it's a cutscene and not representative of his actual abilities. If it isn't part of normal gameplay, no go. (and I know reaction commands are, its their effects that aren't)

In what way is something in a cutscene not representative of someone's power? In fact, shouldn't they be more representative of the character, since they are free of considerations like Game Balance and Player Skill?

[Dorizzit]

No. Because it isn't very consistent.

[Artemician]

Game representation isn't exactly very consistent either, my dear...

Besides, how have you arrived at the conclusion that what happens in-game is the One True Power of the character?

[Dorizzit]

Game representation isn't exactly very consistent either, my dear...

Please give examples.


Besides, how have you arrived at the conclusion that what happens in-game is the One True Power of the character?

I'm sorry, can you rephrase that?

[Ether]

Because they are the in game equivalent of cutscene power (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CutscenePowerToTheMax). If Link was able to cut a mountain in half in a cutscene, would we let him do it here? No, because it's a cutscene and not representative of his actual abilities. If it isn't part of normal gameplay, no go. (and I know reaction commands are, its their effects that aren't)

No, cutscenes are representative of the character's abilities. When gameplay and cutscenes contradict each other then gameplay is the one that's thrown out.

[Dorizzit]

I disagree. That would be like saying that something an actor does in a movie is representative of what they can do in real life.

[Ether]

I disagree. That would be like saying that something an actor does in a movie is representative of what they can do in real life.

Bad Analogy. Sora isn't acting in the cutscenes. In and out he's still Sora.

Tell me do you really think Final Fantasy characters take turns attacking?

[Artemician]

Please give examples.

If you take Gameplay as the sole Indicator of a character's power, Link has the magical ability to reappear on top of cliffs whenever he throws himself off one. Master Chief never dies, he just has to wait for his cloned buddy to run to an area without enemies to cause him to reappear. Keeps can be destroyed by a single archer with enough patience. Marines outrun Carriers capable of inter-stellar travel.


I'm sorry, can you rephrase that?

The onus is on you to prove why we should use Gameplay as the first and foremost indicator of a character, rather than just stating that cutscenes shouldn't be used.


I disagree. That would be like saying that something an actor does in a movie is representative of what they can do in real life.

That is disingenious. A character in a cutscene and a character in-game are, canonically, the same character. A character portrayed by an actor is not the same as the actor himself.

[Dorizzit]

If you take Gameplay as the sole Indicator of a character's power, Link has the magical ability to reappear on top of cliffs whenever he throws himself off one. Master Chief never dies, he just has to wait for his cloned buddy to run to an area without enemies to cause him to reappear. Keeps can be destroyed by a single archer with enough patience. Marines outrun Carriers capable of inter-stellar travel.

As I recall, death isn't permanent for Sora, either. Death is never handled realistically in videogames (except maybe strategy games). Yeah, it's called a lucky shot with a flaming arrow. Unlikely, but possible. I don't know what game that's from, but a lot of 'verses have two speed settings, one for "hyperjumping" and one for local travel. I'm not saying I'm right there, just that it's a possibility.


The onus is on you to prove why we should use Gameplay as the first and foremost indicator of a character, rather than just stating that cutscenes shouldn't be used.

Because, as I've said before, Gameplay is totally consistent. You can do things or you can't. I've seen discussions about movie or book characters devolve into shouting matches because people assumed that since a character could do one thing, than "it's only logical" they can do X. It's similar to cutscenes: what characters can do vary, and it is a much less clear indicator of overall power.


That is disingenious. A character in a cutscene and a character in-game are, canonically, the same character. A character portrayed by an actor is not the same as the actor himself.

Yes, but just because a character can run up a wall in a cutscene, doesn't mean they can do that 95% of the time, even when it would be extremely useful or potentially life saving.


Tell me do you really think Final Fantasy characters take turns attacking?

No. I don't. But since neither of the characters here are from RPGs, I hardly think that that's relevant atm.

[Ether]

Yes, but just because a character can run up a wall in a cutscene, doesn't mean they can do that 95% of the time, even when it would be extremely useful or potentially life saving.

Why?


No. I don't. But since neither of the characters here are from RPGs, I hardly think that that's relevant atm.

It is relevant unless you're changing you argument to gameplay is superior except in RPGs.

[TempusCCK]

Funny how I get lambasted for ignoring the OP's premise on the logical basis that it's not fair for one side, but as soon as the OP posts a premise that hurts the other side they start attack it, no one attacks them for it... some of us have a bias much?

I will concede that Sora is much faster than Link WITH HIS WEAPONS IN VALOR FORM, other than that, they control very much the same, with the exception of Links attacks being quicker with the sword than Sora's lumbering swings. However, Link is pretty much one of those big fat enemies that you can fight as Sora and his blunt Keyblade bounces off with that silly little sound, except it's a ping, and the recoil that Sora takes from the block opens him up to inevitable counterattack, and Sora can't possibly run around Link. Honestly, this fight is a non-contest.

[Dorizzit]

Why?

Because in some cutscenes characters do that when they can't in normal gameplay. Then later, they are in a circumstance where it would be really useful to run up walls but wait! They can't, because the player is in control.


It is relevant unless you're changing you argument to gameplay is superior except in RPGs.

No, what I'm saying is that the purpose of this thread is to determine the winner between Sora and Link. The current debate is relevant, but adding in things about RPGs is not. I'd be happy to discuss it over PM with you, if you like, but not in this thread.

[Ether]

Because in some cutscenes characters do that when they can't in normal gameplay. Then later, they are in a circumstance where it would be really useful to run up walls but wait! They can't, because the player is in control.

Cutscenes are superior so in a Vs. debate I would argue that the character could run up walls.


No, what I'm saying is that the purpose of this thread is to determine the winner between Sora and Link. The current debate is relevant, but adding in things about RPGs is not. I'd be happy to discuss it over PM with you, if you like, but not in this thread.

It is relevant. It's just a extension of our current debate.

Now since you think gameplay doesn't determine what a RPG character can and can't do. Then how do you determine what they can and can't?

[Dorizzit]

Cutscenes are superior so in a Vs. debate I would argue that the character could run up walls.

Then why didn't said character run up the wall when his life was in danger?


It is relevant. It's just a extension of our current debate.

Now since you think gameplay doesn't determine what a RPG character can and can't do. Then how do you determine what they can and can't?

I'm not going to continue discussing this, as it is irrelevant to the thread. If it really matters that much to you, PM me.

[Ether]

Then why didn't said character run up the wall when his life was in danger?

Plot Induced Stupidity. Same reason why Flash or Superman comics don't end in one page when most should.

[Oregano]

I agree that it is irrelevant to this thread, it's probably best handled over pm or in another thread if a mod allows it.

I think we chose to ignore Reaction commands for know to keep things civil.

And Tempus obviously you have a bias and/or haven't read the thread, no one was using Reaction commands as an argument, they just simply wanted to know why they were banned, wher as, some of the people on the Link side were actively complaining about the one thing that was taken away from Link whilst ignoring the dozen things taken away from Sora. Sorry if that seemed insulting, but your post seemed like an attack on the people supporting Sora.

Sora has always, in my opinion, seemed faster in gameplay, maybe we could compare some videos or somesuch?

[Anteros]

Funny how I get lambasted for ignoring the OP's premise on the logical basis that it's not fair for one side, but as soon as the OP posts a premise that hurts the other side they start attack it, no one attacks them for it... some of us have a bias much?

I will concede that Sora is much faster than Link WITH HIS WEAPONS IN VALOR FORM, other than that, they control very much the same, with the exception of Links attacks being quicker with the sword than Sora's lumbering swings. However, Link is pretty much one of those big fat enemies that you can fight as Sora and his blunt Keyblade bounces off with that silly little sound, except it's a ping, and the recoil that Sora takes from the block opens him up to inevitable counterattack, and Sora can't possibly run around Link. Honestly, this fight is a non-contest.

Because you were ignoring it in order to prove that OoT Link is stronger than Sora. Which is something most of us already agreed upon.

Edit: Dorizzit I find the argument totally relevant. You made an argument and Krysis/Artemician pointed out a gaping flaw in your argument. Now you're trying to discount their point by pretending it's irrelevant. It's relevant because it proves your gameplay > cutscenes argument wrong. What you're doing is the equivalent over covering your ears at a debate and yelling "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

[TempusCCK]

No, my issue isn't with the fact that people are arguing for the cutscenes, it's that when I went against the OP's premise was I insulted, now that these other people are trying to go against the OP (some of them the same people that insulted me) in favor of Sora, nobody is saying anything against them. I do not think reaction commands should be involved, but the point is that there's a double standard by some people in this thread by some people in favor of Sora. I.E: It's alright for Sora's crowd to argue for a change in the Op's premise, but it's not alright for someone to do it for Link.

Now, As to Why Cutscenes Are Not Involved:

They are not a true representation of the character, they are merely included to make people go "WOW SORA IS SO COOL!!!!!!11111" They are purely entertainment factor based on Metagame knowledge on teh part of everyone viewing the story. "This is a game, you can't do these things because that's not the premise of the game, but here's some cool looking stuff anyway." Everyone knows you can't do that stuff, only Metagame Sora can. Link has cutscenes when he casts spell that literally pause time, does Link get to use that? If so, Sora can't possibly defend and Link spams spells until Soras dead, whoo-hoo. I think it's better for discussion in general if we just agree to leave that crap out.


Because you were ignoring it in order to prove that OoT Link is stronger than Sora. Which is something most of us already agreed upon.

And how is that different from what people are doing for Sora? They're arguing against it so that Sora can chop through whole buildings with teh equivalent of a metal pole for Christ's sake. Fighting the Op's premise to make Sora a biblical freaking Hero or something is the same thing.

[Anteros]

No, my issue isn't with the fact that people are arguing for the cutscenes, it's that when I went against the OP's premise was I insulted, now that these other people are trying to go against the OP (some of them the same people that insulted me) in favor of Sora, nobody is saying anything against them. I do not think reaction commands should be involved, but the point is that there's a double standard by some people in this thread by some people in favor of Sora. I.E: It's alright for Sora's crowd to argue for a change in the Op's premise, but it's not alright for someone to do it for Link.

Now, As to Why Cutscenes Are Not Involved:

They are not a true representation of the character, they are merely included to make people go "WOW SORA IS SO COOL!!!!!!11111" They are purely entertainment factor based on Metagame knowledge on teh part of everyone viewing the story. "This is a game, you can't do these things because that's not the premise of the game, but here's some cool looking stuff anyway." Everyone knows you can't do that stuff, only Metagame Sora can. Link has cutscenes when he casts spell that literally pause time, does Link get to use that? If so, Sora can't possibly defend and Link spams spells until Soras dead, whoo-hoo. I think it's better for discussion in general if we just agree to leave that crap out.



And how is that different from what people are doing for Sora? They're arguing against it so that Sora can chop through whole buildings with teh equivalent of a metal pole for Christ's sake. Fighting the Op's premise to make Sora a biblical freaking Hero or something is the same thing.

Actually, you'll notice that I was agreeing that Sora would lose the current contest, and wondering why we couldn't expand it to include the full scope of both characters. You make it seem like I am trying to get some arbitrary advantage for Sora when I already admitted that he would lose.

As to the cutscene point, I would disagree. Cutscenes are a more detailed look at the character's capabilities than gameplay. Obviously they can't give you the ability to do everything that a character is shown doing in gameplay because of technological restrictions and balance issues. Cutscenes show the character as the creator intended without having to worry about these issues. It's safe to assume that if Kingdom Hearts were an anime or another form of media, Sora would act like he does during the cutscenes at all times. For proof of this look at the Devil May Cry cutscenes and anime vs. gameplay. Obviously the cutscenes are intended to be the true character.

This goes both ways though, if Link does have a spell he can cast to stop time, then there is absolutely no doubt that he would be able to pound Sora into mist, provided he has the time. the ability, and the inclination to use it.

[Drascin]

My own opinion, having beat pretty much every Zelda except II and KH2 in hard (and reached pretty far on Critical on a friend's imported Final Mix+), and to differentiate as people seem to be doing...

Gameplay Sora Vs Gameplay Link, not decisive but Link gets the better chance. Magic Aura is basically instant, and Sora has a moment of recoil when he hits an invulnerable target, which is enough for Link to get his own combo in if he activates it as Sora charges in - and Sora hasn't got anywhere near enough HP to be anywhere near good health after a full multiple slash+spin combo. Unless he decides to forfeit Valor and melee combat completely (rare in most of the game, because normally the way to fight most efficiently is meleeing the hell out of everything, so it's unlikely to be his primary strategy) and spam Wisdom spells, which would actually give him a very good chance. Even then, Link's got some pretty sweet projectiles of his own, and two minutes of switchable invulnerability (which can last a lot. Believe me on this one), so it'd be a toss-up. Sora is great at juggling, but enemies resistant to melee cramp his usual style a lot. As said, Wisdom+lots of sliding+Electro spam is his best bet.

Cutscene Sora vs Cutscene Link, Sora wins hard. Link isn't too powered up by cutscenes - Sora, on the other hand, becomes brutally faster, his slashes much more lethal, and suddenly has basically no recovery time per swing. This is not even a contest. The only Link that could stand up to him is Oot/MM Link, and then it turns right to the other side, which is also boring.

[Oregano]

Can anyone find any Kingdom Hearts II videos where he doesn't use Reaction commands, everybody seems to record boss battles in which reaction commands play a massive part.

EDIT:
Final Battle of Wind Waker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_yXb6rLHJg&feature=related) The earlier video of the same battle may be a better example.

Vs.

Battle vs. Sephiroth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgQ-MT27tw0), I would use the battle versus Xemnas(sp?) but that's almost entirely Reaction Commands.

Going from these two, Sora seems faster.

[Zaphrasz]

I posted videos of the Hurricane Spin earlier, as well as the Ganondorf battle. Wind Waker Link has pretty standard sword slashes, compared to the rest of the Link's, but his parries, which can be done in response to most attacks, are really fast and accurate. The standard slashes aren't as fast as Sora's, but the parries are.

[Oregano]

I rewatched the final battle video again and again, and the parry's pretty unnoticeable, which is why I don't know how fast it is, it could either be really fast(which I think it may be) or the hulking Ganon/dorf might be blocking it, is there a clearer video.

The hurricane spin is fast, but can be dodged, there is very similar attacks of KH that can be dodged, look at some of Sephiroth's attacks, they're equally as unblockable.

The main point of me comparing the speeds however was not about the parrying as I assume Link would be able to parry atleast half of the time(afterall, it's what he does:smallwink:) but it was a response to Tempus who said Link is as fast and Sora wouldn't be able to encircle Link.

EDIT: I watched it again and I think I see the parry, although it's concealed because the camera goes funny(by the looks of it anyway). I watched some other Wind Waker videos as well and I've got to say, Link's magic runs out pretty fast(relatively speaking), it just depends whether he could defeat Sora in that time.(I don't think either would actually kill each other)

[Zaphrasz]

Of course not, Sora has a more constant speed, Wind Waker Link tends to go in bursts. Even though, by game mechanics, he can parry any attack, he won't be stopping every attack. That is why magic armor is so nice, as it gives him some chances to screw up without any real consequences. It also gives him a chance to charge up the Hurricane Spin.

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M73kpJv8tWw) is a clearer video.

[Oregano]

Can you pinpoint what moment the parry is because it tends to look similar to reaction commands if it's the very final attack but if it's the one a couple of seconds earlier(as I think it is), it is an expert parry(although the camera angle screws up:smallannoyed:).

Funny fact for you all(I previously mentioned it): The final battle in Kingdom Hearts Two is pretty much entirely Reaction commands.

Right so, so far we've established, Link would be invulnerable, and attack Sora, which means Sora's already injured now, Sora would presumeably back off here because he's realised he can't hurt Link(atleast from the front) of course, this depends now of how much each person can find out about each other during the battle because if they're both left clueless I feel the battle may be a stalemate as Sora wouldn't attack if he couldn't actually hurt Link and Link fights defensively.

[Zaphrasz]

The last attack was a parry, yes, and this was kind of a short battle. One happens at around 25 seconds in, (You can tell by the A button becoming all spiky and a tone plays) but it is a slow one. He can do one similar to the last strike, but he just jumps up, slashes, and lands behind his enemy, like the helm splitter in Twilight Princess. That glow is the magic armor, and you can see how fast it drains his magic. It can, however, be switched on and off with no start up surge. The goofy mask lets him see enemy hit points, but that is kind of a metagame concept.

[Fan]

The last attack was a parry, yes, and this was kind of a short battle. One happens at around 25 seconds in, (You can tell by the A button becoming all spiky and a tone plays) but it is a slow one. He can do one similar to the last strike, but he just jumps up, slashes, and lands behind his enemy, like the helm splitter in Twilight Princess. That glow is the magic armor, and you can see how fast it drains his magic. It can, however, be switched on and off with no start up surge. The goofy mask lets him see enemy hit points, but that is kind of a metagame concept.
Magic glow= invulenrablity even in KH2 my freind I think Sora would have picked up on the magic glow effect after four or so bosses with it.:smalltongue:

[Zaphrasz]

I wasn't the one who claimed Sora wouldn't notice. There is just nothing he can really do about it. Is he going to keep his distance? Not a good idea against Link. Also, Link has enhanced strength in this game, see at about 3:55 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL_LbMCK0zM)

[Fan]

I wasn't the one who claimed Sora wouldn't notice. There is just nothing he can really do about it. Is he going to keep his distance? Not a good idea against Link. Also, Link has enhanced strength in this game, see at about 3:55 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL_LbMCK0zM)

So can block ranged attacks VERY easily, and Valor form easily outstrengths that of Links enhancedness.

[Zaphrasz]

You can't really block a magic boomerang that you can set a path. Link normally can't do that, but if Sora is keeping his distance, he can set up the boomerang path.

[Fan]

You can't really block a magic boomerang that you can set a path. Link normally can't do that, but if Sora is keeping his distance, he can set up the boomerang path.
Sora blocks more powerful things ALL THE TIME. Sephies sword, Ice titan ice spears giant fireballs, flying blades of whirly doom you now the kind.

[Dorizzit]

Plot Induced Stupidity. Same reason why Flash or Superman comics don't end in one page when most should.

That is an extremely bad answer.


Dorizzit I find the argument totally relevant. You made an argument and Krysis/Artemician pointed out a gaping flaw in your argument. Now you're trying to discount their point by pretending it's irrelevant. It's relevant because it proves your gameplay > cutscenes argument wrong. What you're doing is the equivalent over covering your ears at a debate and yelling "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

It would be a gaping flaw...except that it doesn't apply to either of the games, making it irrelevant to this thread. I have also repeatedly offered to discuss it at length at a place where it wouldn't be clogging the thread. I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying it doesn't affect Kingdom Hearts or Legend of Zelda.

[Oregano]

The question is how well is Link at aiming the Boomerang and how easy is it to dodge? Is there anyway to get an indication?

[Seraph]

The question is how well is Link at aiming the Boomerang and how easy is it to dodge? Is there anyway to get an indication?

the boomerang is like magic missile in that it never, ever misses. if you dodge, it follows you.

[Fan]

the boomerang is like magic missile in that it never, ever misses. if you dodge, it follows you.
And when you block it it deals damage to the weapon or shield which = no damage, and sicne Sora blocks faster more pwoerful pure force effects all the time he'll be fine/

[Oregano]

So it follows him not matter what, even if Sora jumps over it then does an aerial approach to Link, sure he ricochets off but the advantage of aerial attacks IIRC is that you don't bounce backwards unguarded.

[Drascin]

The question is how well is Link at aiming the Boomerang and how easy is it to dodge? Is there anyway to get an indication?

How well... perfectly, actually, given the fact you can, basically, pilot it. It's got what we D&Ders call perfect maneuverability :smalltongue:.

And FFF, please, try, for once, to be reasonable, you're putting even me against Sora, and I love KH to bits. Sora, as repeatedly shown, is what we could call... not smart. Plus for every boss where "glow=invulnerability", there's two others where "glow=powerful attack incoming, boss charging up, free-smacking time ahoy". And it still remains that charging headfirst is not only what he does, but actually the only real way to beat his game efficiently ('sides the fact it takes a small fraction of a second to activate the Aura, so he'll likely be commited to his first charge before Link starts glowing). I'm almost certain he will rush, and likely get smacked the first time. Then it depends on whether he can go Wisdom and start sliding fast enough for Link to miss with his bow while he pelts him with spells.

Also, for the blocking... yes, he does block enormously powerful stuff, as does Link (who has blocked hits from collosus equivalents as well). In both their games, a block means a small measure of invulnerability frames, not just blocking. The difference here is that Sora's block has either a small lag after the hit, or he has to follow it with a counter-lunge, which would, in this case, do nothing but open him up as well. I should know how block-counter works, I beat most of Sephy (most as in, every time he wasn't trying to blast me with spells) in the first KH by way of Counter-lunge just to show off :smalltongue:.


So it follows him not matter what, even if Sora jumps over it then does an aerial approach to Link, sure he ricochets off but the advantage of aerial attacks IIRC is that you don't bounce backwards unguarded.

Actually, you do. The difference is that the amount of time spent unguarded is dramatically lower and it's much easier to recover, especially if you attack just slightly above the ground, and if you manage to get the full combo in, you lose much less time to beging the next if you end it near the ground as well. So we can probably bet Sora will be attacking more or less around that height - he might be a bit (okay, very. Damn Idiot Protagonist tendencies on JRPGs) stupid when it comes to thinking, but he knows combat.

[Oregano]

You do flinch? Yer, it seems only natural to fight even a bit in the air in Kingdom Hearts otherwise you're denyign yourself the maneuverability it grants Sora.

I also agree he'd try to strike at least once and get hit and then realise the error, which is why I think it may ened as a stalemate.

By the way Dorizzit you may want to state Sora doesn't have the auto-regen, otherwie it's a tad unfair.

EDIT: We've actually come to a problem however because in KH 2, the one we're primarily using for the argument most if not all counter and blocking is done by Reaction commands.

[Anteros]

You do flinch? Yer, it seems only natural to fight even a bit in the air in Kingdom Hearts otherwise you're denyign yourself the maneuverability it grants Sora.

I also agree he'd try to strike at least once and get hit and then realise the error, which is why I think it may ened as a stalemate.

By the way Dorizzit you may want to state Sora doesn't have the auto-regen, otherwie it's a tad unfair.

EDIT: We've actually come to a problem however because in KH 2, the one we're primarily using for the argument most if not all counter and blocking is done by Reaction commands.

Why would it be a tad unfair? You've already hamstrung a huge portion of Sora's shown abilities. How much exactly do you need to take away to make it "fair"? Maybe if we had Link vs. Sora in a wheelchair while he is asleep?

Honestly, you either discuss it with both character's at their full canon strength or there is no point.

Edit: As to your blocking point. No. There is a block button, it's not a reaction command at all.

[Oregano]

I haven't played on it in ages so that's my mistake, I thought all the countering was done with Triangle though, which is the reaction commands isn't it?

Well auto-regen makes it so Sora can just waste time and regenerate the hits he's lost, where as Link can't heal.

Of course, Sora does have a lot of Auto- abilities, one being haste.

EDIT: By the way I'm not purposely trying to make Sora weaker, I've been arguing for Sora most of the time.

[freerangetroll]

Why would it be a tad unfair? You've already hamstrung a huge portion of Sora's shown abilities. How much exactly do you need to take away to make it "fair"? Maybe if we had Link vs. Sora in a wheelchair while he is asleep?

Honestly, you either discuss it with both character's at their full canon strength or there is no point.

Edit: As to your blocking point. No. There is a block button, it's not a reaction command at all.

We don't really want to go full strength if Sora even wants a chance of winning. You give link his bottles to keep Magic up and he never runs out of invincibility. Not to mention that even if Sora stuck him down, then link pops back up and takes Sora down. Who doesn't have a self rez.

Giving link fairies and massive regen is a really bad idea.

[Sholos]

Why would it be a tad unfair? You've already hamstrung a huge portion of Sora's shown abilities. How much exactly do you need to take away to make it "fair"? Maybe if we had Link vs. Sora in a wheelchair while he is asleep?

Honestly, you either discuss it with both character's at their full canon strength or there is no point.

Edit: As to your blocking point. No. There is a block button, it's not a reaction command at all.

Most of it, yes. The bigger stuff is mostly reaction commands, though (Sephiroth, for instance?).

[Collyer-san]

Only the most basic block isn't a reaction command, and that needs to be timed relitivly well.

Sora doesn't have cure, Link doesn't have bottles, fair on that account.

IIRC from KH2 Sora's Drive forms cannot be used without Donald or Goofy present, though For sake of Argument, I'll ignore this.

Valor form increases weapon speed, not movement speed. Link can turn quickly enough to block attacks, due to a smaller turning circle then Sora.

Wisdom form's spells will most likely be blocked by magic armour, or Reflected.

Similerly, Link's boomerang moves slowly enough to be easily blocked with the simple block command.

Link's arrows can easily be dodged. (Though I don't know the speed of the Light arrows.)

While using the Magic Armour, Link may be able to pull some hits off, though when the Armour runs out, Sora can get hits in as well. If link uses the Hurricane Spin, Sora is gonna get HURT. Again, though, if Sora pulls of a large combo afterwards, Link is also gonna get HURT.

Bombs could be used as Deterents, or Mines.

That is currently all I can think of. I'm gonna stand on a Draw. However, if Sora becomes reckless, Link may get the upper hand.

[Anteros]

We don't really want to go full strength if Sora even wants a chance of winning. You give link his bottles to keep Magic up and he never runs out of invincibility. Not to mention that even if Sora stuck him down, then link pops back up and takes Sora down. Who doesn't have a self rez.

Giving link fairies and massive regen is a really bad idea.

Then we discuss that and if we decide that Link overpowers Sora then he wins. It's not supposed to be a contest, it's supposed to be a discussion. Putting arbitrary limiters on the characters "to make it fairer" makes the entire thing meaningless.

[tribble]

Then we discuss that and if we decide that Link overpowers Sora then he wins. It's not supposed to be a contest, it's supposed to be a discussion. Putting arbitrary limiters on the characters "to make it fairer" makes the entire thing meaningless.

by that argument, every comic book character vs. anyone at all ends in: Comic book character goes into Super Awesome Deus Ex Machina mode, and wins, and every Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer ends in: the Enterprise transports some dudes into the Star Destroyers Engine rooms, and they plant a Pseudoscience bomb in there.

Honestly, I like Link better, but I think that he really isn't equipped with the tools to take on Sora for one reason: Thundaga. I haven't seen any time that Link points his shield straight up. for this reason, Link gets electrocuted. now, lets say that Sora doesn't use Thundaga. then it becomes a question of which magic he's using. Is Firaga a fireball? or is it a wheel of fire around Sora that lasts for three seconds? is Blizzaga a short range burst? or is it a long range Ice missle? If we use the KH2 magic, Link cant hit him at short range because Sora is spamming Firagas. If KH1, then Link dies because the guy who started this thread didn't state that Sora doesn't get Stop, so he freezes Link in time and kills him. however, Link is a better hero because HE manages to face Insurmountable odds without yammering on about Saturday Morning Bull****(All Rights Reserved.).

[Anteros]

by that argument, every comic book character vs. anyone at all ends in: Comic book character goes into Super Awesome Deus Ex Machina mode, and wins, and every Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer ends in: the Enterprise transports some dudes into the Star Destroyers Engine rooms, and they plant a Pseudoscience bomb in there.



Unfortunately yes. You have to take the characters at the maximum of their power for it to mean anything. Otherwise you are placing arbitrary restrictions and whoever gets off easier wins. I am not saying to include deus ex machina, but when you discount things that are clearly part of a character in order to give the other side a better chance at winning, there is really no further point in debate.

[Sholos]

by that argument, every comic book character vs. anyone at all ends in: Comic book character goes into Super Awesome Deus Ex Machina mode, and wins, and every Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer ends in: the Enterprise transports some dudes into the Star Destroyers Engine rooms, and they plant a Pseudoscience bomb in there.

Except for the part where you can't transport past shields. And SW shields are always up if there's a reason for them to be up. Like, in combat? And has the Enterprise crew ever done something like that before?

Regardless, there are people you can take at full power and compare them to others. It's the OP's job to make sure that the two are roughly equal in power.

[Oregano]

Tribble, Link probably used to be preachy and then someone made him a mute.:smalltongue:

I don't know if I'm right but by the looks of it everytime Link gets hit while using the magic armor a chuck of magic goes, I might be wrong but that's what it looked like.:smallconfused:

Is anyone in a position where they can test it.

I may go on Kingdom Hearts 2 after College so I can get a better idea of Sora's powers.

EDIT: Anteros, I've been looking at it in a different way, we're just having a fun discussion and we want to prolong it so if they were at full power and it came down to "X has Y. X wins" It would be pointless for us, that's why we've tried to make them equal.