Bargainer Base Class, very much in concept, help appreciated

[Wolfpack]

Okay, so I've been thinking about a Bargain based Base class for a long time, but I'm not really sure where to go from there.

So here's what I have so far:

1) I think they should have limited allies, but probably not more then one at a time, to avoid bogging the game down.

2) I want them to use something different, not spells, in combat.

3) I want this to be like contract negotiation type stuff, so I want Int as or more important then Cha.

4) Probably want to give them Planar Binding type abilities as SLAs or whatever, at the appropriate levels, of course this conflicts with 1, 2, and 3.

5) I'm kinda in a rut, and that's why I'm asking.

Does anyone know of anything out there that already has some features to steal/borrow? Anyone know what this character could do in combat besides direct minions? Is a different base mechanic even viable?

[thegurullamen]

Different mechanics are always viable and encouraged.

You could give him lesser lesser planar bindings, but that makes him little more than a summoner. You could give him spell-likes in exchange with contracts of power, but then he's a warlock. My suggestion here is to go a weird yet all-too-similar path; per-encounter spells. Yes I know, "no spells". Hear me out here. Spells are per-day things that need to be recharged by the uber casters. Per-encounter "spells" can be more versatile, though, balancing between crap and omgpowerfulz! Think of them as maneuvers without the prerquisite of being a melee monster (which is exactly what they are.) If you make them one of the bases of your class, the bargaining can be included at a variety of points: you could bargain for per-encounter spell points at the beginning of each day, make bargain checks whenever you cast to convince the gods/planar beings/magic/space wedgies to act how you want (which may or may not come at a cost) etc.

I hope this has helped. I can probably come up with some more ideas if you're intrigued, but for now, food.

[Fako]

Okay, so I've been thinking about a Bargain based Base class for a long time, but I'm not really sure where to go from there.

So here's what I have so far:

1) I think they should have limited allies, but probably not more then one at a time, to avoid bogging the game down.

2) I want them to use something different, not spells, in combat.

3) I want this to be like contract negotiation type stuff, so I want Int as or more important then Cha.

4) Probably want to give them Planar Binding type abilities as SLAs or whatever, at the appropriate levels, of course this conflicts with 1, 2, and 3.

5) I'm kinda in a rut, and that's why I'm asking.

Does anyone know of anything out there that already has some features to steal/borrow? Anyone know what this character could do in combat besides direct minions? Is a different base mechanic even viable?

From what you're asking for, you might want to take a look at the Binder class from Tome of Magic. It makes pacts with extraplanar beings each day, and offers the chance to experience life through the binder in exchange for the use of some of their power. Not exactly what you're looking for, but you could probably use it as a starting platform...

Either that, or you might want to make this a "refluffed warlock" of sorts. I know you're not looking for spells or magic, but what about the ability to manipulate people with words? You know a certain number of "tricks" that work on nearly anything, and can do anything from making an ally more potent or convincing an enemy not to attack... Granted, that sounds a lot like the Truenamer of Tome of Magic (good fluff, bad execution), which you might want to look at as well...

[Innis Cabal]

Have you seen the Shar'ir from Dragon? Very much like this, uses spells but differently

[Xallace]

Something different in combat? How about... talking the opponent down? A bargain-based class sounds like one that's going to have some extreme usage of the social skills. Why not capitalize on that?

You might have your basic "Diplomacy as full-round action at no penalty," then as the class progresses, the character gains the (ex) equivalent of Charm Person, maybe even all the way up to Dominate Monster as an extraordinary final ability, just using skills. Heh, Mind Control would certainly help one to get the best deal possible.

I dunno, nothing else really off the top of my head.

[Wolfpack]

Okay guys, thanks for the suggestions.

First, for all those suggesting Truenamer/Binder/Warlock. I know what those are, I promise, and none of them (with the possible exception of Warlock) has anything worth contributing to this idea.

2) No idea what the Shar'ir are. Don't have that many Dragons could you give me more info?

3) per-encounter spells, maybe, I'll start exploring that direction.

4) Diplomacy/talking people down in combat: Hell No! Even leaving aside the borked up 3.5 Diplomacy system, I don't want another character type that runs around making friends while everyone else kills things, it's not a sensible way to play in 90% of campaigns.

5) To give you guys a rough idea of what I was thinking, this is a previous set up I was planning before it sort of dead ended in the whole, too complicated,not right category.

Bargainer gets some sort of Cohort (of about AC companion level) at level 1. Some sort of outsider. Also, he posses an ability to bargain with outsiders to gain access to their SLAs.

He would need to meet and speak with them, and then, when he's done he could only get up to a certain level of SLA (the max level of a Wizard/Druid/Cleric of his level could cast of course) and SLAs would be deducted from a pool of "SLA levels" which may be something like his CL, or CLx2, or maybe changing at some point.

So for example, maybe a level 1 Bargainer has a single level 1 SLA at will, or maybe just a few times a day. He would probably need something else to do, which is annoying.

He'd also have to get other abilities, but not really sure what. And then at some point he'd have Planar Binding abilities. of some kind.

Problems/Reasons I don't think this will work:

1) Outsider availability is very low pre-Planar Binding, very high post. I probably need to pick one level of access and stick with it.

2) Generally speaking, too complicated.

3) Outsiders generally have certain SLAs anyway, so choices are starkly limited. And it kills a lot of the class.

4) As it stands, OoC to get it's stuff it would be really complicated and off putting, in combat, it's an improved Warlock with better SLA options, and honestly, if I'm just going to build an invoker class, might as well build an invoker.

[Innis Cabal]

Its an arabian nights class, that allows the player to retrive spells from certain spells lists, takes a while so its not really...optimal, but its a good mechanic

Another idea is to "copy" creatures, how ever you want to go about that, and have them able to use a certain number of those copies as followers

[Kellus]

I'm honestly not sure what kind of flavour you're going for. If the idea is someone that makes deals with devils and the like, you could probably reflavour the binder to work for you. If the idea is to have someone that has a devilish companion, you could explore the planar binding/planar ally routes, or even the malconvoker prestige class from Complete Scoundrel. Alternatively, the Fiendbinder from Tome of Magic has a bunch of devilish companions you bind to your will.

If you're looking for a bit more complicated solution, try taking a look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55950). It's a project I did a while back, and is reasonable complete right now. Again, I don't know if it's the right flavour for what you're looking for, but it may give you a few ideas as to how to implement what you want.

[RTGoodman]

The Spirit Shaman class from Complete Divine is VERY similar to what you're talking about - it gets a spirit companion, it sends the companion to bargain with the great beyond or whatever, and then the companion brings back certain spells that it retrieved for the Shaman to use that day. You don't have to use that exact system, but you could probably borrow some stuff from that and combine it with, say, Binder-esque abilities that have recharge times or ToB-esque per-encounter maneuvers. All you'd need would be an "ability list" of things you could request from the outsiders and you'd be pretty set.

[thegurullamen]

Look into the Draconomicon or Dragon Magic or one of those dragon books for draconic pacts. Essentially, a dragon-blood PC can trade something (usually treasure to be added to the dragon's hoard) in exchange for use of the dragon's spells/spell-likes for an entire year. Use them as a base for power-equivalence and then make a system based on contacting certain outsiders (ala preparing spells in the morning; you can naturally do it via a contract with the planes or whatever) and negotiating certain class skills/abilities/spells/"spells" in exchange for prayer (for the devout outsiders), evil acts (for the, well, duh), money, souls or anything else outsiders may choose to give value to.

Of course, this is all just fluff. I still suggest "spells" as a primary mechanic with summoning and random planar oddities (wild effects, the geomancer's weirdness abilities, the binder's altered appearance/behavior, etc.) as strong backup to the theme.