A Friendly Neighborhood Question

[alchemyprime]

Okay. I'm a bit iffed about some of the Deus Ex Machs in the 616 universe right now.

To the point that I am thinking of switching fully to alternate realities and Ultimate Universe comics when it comes to Marvel.

Things Marvel did to make me angry (they should be glad 'm not a Banner...)
1. One New Day. One More Day. Man I'm tired this morning...
2.
Skrull Tony?


Okay, so that one was dropped. Still, Tony was being a real jerk lately too...


3. They shot Cap.

Now, the Ultimate Universe only makes me a little iffed in the Gah Lak Tus area, as Silver Surfer is one of my favorite heroes. But beyond that, I'm cool with the Ultimate Universe.

Plus the 1602 verse and Zombieverse were awesome...

So, I want to know: Do you prefer mainstream Marvel, Ultimate Marvel, AUs only, or switched totally to other comic labels? Or some combination there of?

(Because, for a Marvel fanboy, I have to admit, I loved Watchmen [but who didn't?] and Green Arrow/Green Lantern/Question are all good characters in my book.)

[chiasaur11]

Marvel Adventures all the way.

I mean, MODAvengers!

Ant-Man on the Avengers!

"I'm Reed Richards, and these are my toasters"

[Piedmon_Sama]

Tony's not a Skrull.

[Friv]

I like some of the Ultimate lines more than others (I was lucky enough to have a couple of friends collecting comics too, so we each grabbed a line).

Ultimate Spiderman has been good so far.
Ultimate X-Men was good right about until the Magical storyarc, at which point the train went off the tracks with astonishing speed.
Ultimate Fantastic Four was fun, but not amazing.
Ultimates 1 was good. Ultimates 2 was okay. Ultimates 3 I never got very far into due to annoyance and boredom.

Similarly, I was a big fan of Exiles and Runaways. New Exiles' first trade didn't do much for me, and I'm way behind on Runaways at the moment. :(

[Dihan]

I'm a fan of 616. *Is shot*

[kpenguin]

I'm a fan of 616. *Is shot*

Yeah, but you're an X-fan and the X-Men practically exist in a universe of their own that occasionally cross-overs into the rest of 616.

[Dihan]

Yeah, but you're an X-fan and the X-Men practically exist in a universe of their own that occasionally cross-overs into the rest of 616.

Yeah... True. :smalltongue:

I am partial to a bit of Moon Knight and Iron Fist, though.

[Hawriel]

I pritty much gave up on marvel. I cant stand the muddy stories any more. I used to love the Ultimate univers but it has been going down hill fast. The stories there have been pairaleling 616 more often. They are also trying to shue horn in every popular story ark in history as fast as they can. The UXmen are a huge mess, they lost what ever continutity they had two years ago at least. UFF is getting boaring. I am starting to think Reed has autism or somthing because he has no sence of responsablility or consiquence. He never gets punished for his little experiments that almost destroy the world. The Ultimate book was great. Untill this new ark U3. I can't stand it. It has no bearing on what came befor. At least U1 and U2 had an understandable transition. I complane because I really liked these books and the consepte behind them. They are what got be into comic books again.

I didnt mention U spidy because they are still doing well. Not as good as it was afew years ago but Im enjoying what I see. Most of the miniseries are good. Like U Iron man. However U origens is kinda lame. The best thing in my opinion that marvel is putting out is Powers. I dont remember what name its under but its owned by marvel. It's also written by Bendis.

[The Rose Dragon]

Since I cannot follow any continuities due to being in Turkey, I gotta say, I like Marvel. But not 616. Just Ultimate Spider-Man and "What If?"s.

[chiasaur11]

Since I cannot follow any continuities due to being in Turkey, I gotta say, I like Marvel. But not 616. Just Ultimate Spider-Man and "What If?"s.

Try Marvel Adventures.

Sure it's "For the Kids" but, frankly, it's a good deal better than a good deal of main continuity stuff.

[alchemyprime]

The one Marvel Adventures I read was the MA Black Suit Spider-Man bit.

DRIVER: "How are ya gonna stop Stilt Man Spidey?"
SPIDEY: "With a very precise and complicated superhero manuever."

(Spidey sticks out leg, trips Stilt Man)

DRIVER: "Oh, that was sarcasm, huh?"
SPIDEY: "Yes. Yes it was."



Yeah. I'ma Spidey fan through and through.

But Ultimate SPider-Man, Spider-Girl and Spider-Man Loves Mary-Jane are all higher on my list than 616 Spidey right now.

Yes. I like shojo Spider-Man. Sue me.

Actually... please don't sue me. :smalleek:

[Rare Pink Leech]

This applies to all of comic-dom to me: I am not a fan of main continuities. There is simply too much continuity and too many titles out there. It's impossible to keep track of it all. I've always been a fan of the mini-series, what ifs, and other stories that are set in alternate or near-alternate universes (by near-alternate, I mean universes that are essentially the main universe but where the stories don't have an effect on main continuity/don't completely abide by main continuity). These tend to also be the best overall stories.

[Hzurr]

Hmm...I'm a bit of an in-between on this issue. As a late-comer into comic reading, it was much easier for me to get into the Ultimate Universe and understand everything there. However, I should echo what Hawriel said. UX-men are a mess, UFF is...boring, Ultimates and Ultimate Spider-man are good (I haven't read Ultimates 3 yet, but from what I've heard I'll stay away).

As far as 616 goes, there are some books like Daredevil (until the last year or so), Iron Fist and Runaways that I really like, But aside from that, I have trouble keeping track of everything. Every so often I pick up the various Avengers books, or things like Astonishing X-men, but there's really way too much for me to keep track of. Also, I only read TPB, so I usually am not up to date on current issues. That being said, reading only the TPB made things like House of M, and Civil War much more entertaining and awesome for me than it was for people who tried to read it as it happened. I assume Secret Invasion will be the same.

[Gavin Sage]

Okay points in vaguely particular order:

*The death of Captain America is Marvel's best storyline running right now. Seriously, Ed Brubaker is perhaps the best writer working at Marvel right now. Read the entire run from issue one and you'll apreciate how this is an arc about life death and ressurection. The guy that owns the comic shop nearest me, he's been a Cap fan since the 70s and he thinks its the best run the character has ever had.

*616 Marvel still puts out lots of good stuff. Just get away from the stuff tied to the last two big events and into the real stories. When you get away from Bendis and into single books, even the much unfairly malaligned Iron Man is better. I particularly recomend Thor though, its congealed awesome in many ways. Also anything involving Marvel IN SPACE is pretty killer these days.

*Ultimate Marvel is in very bad shape. UFF has never had a good purpose as far as I'm concerned. UXM is a total mess on the whole. Ultimates meanwhile is the worst of the lot, no longer interesting and rarely published. USM remains a strange brightspot however.

*I'm primarily a DC fan now, and its moderately better right now. Don't be exclusive, be inclusive and pick up something from both. It make dealing with either screwing up bad easier.

[Pearl]

On the Ultimates... Mark Millar, who wrote Ultimates Volumes One and Two, as well as Ultimate X-Men through Return of the King (plus some minis, half of the first Ultimate Fantastic four story, etc) is coming back next year with Ultimate Avengers, the story he's said he wrote Ultimates as a prequel to.

It's the only real reason to stay with the Ultimate line in general, and not just Ultimate Spider-man, which is good after having sucked for years.

There's hope!

[Logic]

Now, this may not be the answer to your question, but if you like alternate universe stories, try my short list below. I routinely gobble up any What-if compilation I can find, I rather like alternate versions to the classics. I guess I just like the "everything is familiar, but different" aspect to What-if's and Elseworlds.

Minor Rant not related to alternate Universes contained.
That being said, I am kind of following Brand New Day (for free at my local BX at the moment, I am not giving another dime to Marvel until BND is gone and retconned.)
In addition to all the other criticisms of BND, I have a new one that may not have been addressed yet. Seriously, how does the Venom symbiont not recognize Parker as Spider-Man?

I am hoping to start following Exiles, I just can't guarantee that I will be able to, since I can never be sure they keep the same comics stocked. But every time I read an issue, it is so intriguing. Definitely have to find more by these guys.

I am reading the latest run on Wolverine, with the Old Man Logan storyline (I said it before, I love the alternate universes.) It is unlike the usual "Wolverine is invincible, so lets throw EVERYTHING at him for drama" that it seems they were doing for the last few years.

I am looking forward to finding out more of what has happened in the Ultimate Universe. I was collecting the Ultimate Spider-Man TPB line, but am unable to get them here.

[Gundato]

Honestly, I think a lot of people need to give post-BND Spidey a shot. I was skeptical, but I stuck with the comic. And, I actually fully agree with Joey Q. Spidey needed a retcon/reboot. Don't get me wrong, I was loving the fugitive-Spidey. But he wasn't really Spidey anymore. He was in a stable relationship with a supermodel, was an Avenger (even if an illegal one), had friends in the entire superhero community, and was effectively safe.
What could they really do to give him the required dose of angst? Kidnap Aunt May or MJ? Okay, they had already been doing that non-stop for the past few years. Shoot somebody? Okay, but once you do that you cut your kidnapping possibilities in half. Something had to be done.

And while the actual OMD/BND event was poorly conceived and rushed, the ends have justified the means. Spidey is having (relatively) varied adventures again. He is once more a C-Lister as far as the Superhero community is concerned (right up there with Daredevil and Iron Fist). He can still have his traditional team-ups (especially since half the superheroes are obligated to arrest him, thus preventing prolonged team-ups) and rescue people, but he also gets more variety. He can rescue the cop-lady one week, Harry's girlfriend the next, and throw in an MJ appearance to make all the continuity kids freak out. Or he can be persecuted by the news media (for something other than being Peter Parker). Yet, even better, he can have Peter Parker adventures too.

So yeah, people need to get the BND-stick out of their asses and start reading the comic again. Everyone still comments on how convoluted the clone saga was, but that doesn't mean that every single issue is about said clones.

However, we can all agree that USM is at least 8.3 times as awesome (probably more). There is a reason that USM is pretty much the only comic that is going to survive Ultimatum (ignoring the required Ultimates comic).

[alchemyprime]

Eh... okay. I'll give BND more of a shot. But I'm sticking with USM.

As for Old Man Logan... I think it may just be the thing to get me into Wolverine. I always hated Wolverine on his own. As an Avenger or a member of X-Men, he's fun. So the series focused on only WOlverine didn't sound so fun. Until now.

And... I liked Back in Black. But I'm glad they're getting away with it. I just wish they found a better way to handle OMD than Spidey going to Mephisto. But that's just me.

So, who's up for Marvel Zombies 3? SOunds fun to me!

[Gavin Sage]

OMD could have been done with a one-shot issue: Spidey and Doctor Strange go after a genie lamp and Spidey wishes for his secret identity back. BOOM and throw in web-shooters for free. There's its done, now continue with story-telling. None of this one man fanwank about marriage aging Spidey and we've got all we need or agonizing over the death of an old woman who's lived a good long life and probably wants to see her husband.

And while I peek at BND stuff and will say its not bad, its just going back to comics from over twenty years ago. Yay Spidey fights villians, yay Harry Osborn... wait we've seen this one before. Thing I like least in comics is the lack of long-term development. I LIKED the whole Iron Spider thing and the year spent developing Spidey as Tony's aprentice. It was taking a character that's been static and changing things.

BND might be good but the best comics Marvel has been running these days are chock full of change. Bring Bucky back, miraculously loved heresy. Asgard in Okalahoma, awesome. Annihilus invades space, best event in years from either major company.

[Gundato]

OMD could have been done with a one-shot issue: Spidey and Doctor Strange go after a genie lamp and Spidey wishes for his secret identity back. BOOM and throw in web-shooters for free. There's its done, now continue with story-telling. None of this one man fanwank about marriage aging Spidey and we've got all we need or agonizing over the death of an old woman who's lived a good long life and probably wants to see her husband.

And while I peek at BND stuff and will say its not bad, its just going back to comics from over twenty years ago. Yay Spidey fights villians, yay Harry Osborn... wait we've seen this one before. Thing I like least in comics is the lack of long-term development. I LIKED the whole Iron Spider thing and the year spent developing Spidey as Tony's aprentice. It was taking a character that's been static and changing things.

BND might be good but the best comics Marvel has been running these days are chock full of change. Bring Bucky back, miraculously loved heresy. Asgard in Okalahoma, awesome. Annihilus invades space, best event in years from either major company.

Yeah, Spidey having armor was cool and completely new. If you ignore the other times he has made armor of some form.

And if Spidey isn't fighting villains, what should he be doing? Crossword puzzles? Actually USING his super-intelligence and degree? I know, he can have a kid (wait a moment, there is already a comic about that :p). Or he can go back to school (USM is awesome :p).

Face it, we read 616 Spidey BECAUSE he is 616 Spidey. We know he is going to fight a supervillain, but still make time for petty crooks. We know he is going to have to conceal his identity in some way. We know that bad stuff is going to happen, but we also know that he will pull through it, eventually.

If we want somewhat different formulas, we go to different universes. ASG has Peter as a father. USM (the best comic Marvel has right now) is, ironically, so great because it goes back to the older formula. He has to juggle his life as Spidey and his life as Peter, while dealing with relationships (MJ and Kitty. Sidenote: Who else is going to hell? :p), villains who are superior in many ways (There is a reason that pretty much everyone knows who Spidey is...), tragedy (Gwen), and angst (Do you actually need an example of angst in a Spidey book?).

You cite Cap and Thor. Bucky may be Cap, but he is still fighting Nazis/Terrorists/Commies. Asgard may be in Oklahoma, but has that really had any effect on the plot whatsoever? The only difference is that Thor can now walk to Asgard.

Massive war in space? Kree, Shi'ar, and all the other buggers.

Face it, we read comics so that we can enjoy the things we enjoy. Writers aren't going to change that formula too drastically. Does it change the fact that Cap and Abnett's books are amazing right now? Nope.

On a sidenote: For anyone who loves USM, I strongly suggest also grabbing Ultimate Origins (and keeping an eye out for Ultimatum). Looks like Spidey might actually be important to this event, rather than just a tie-in (or a taxi service for Kitty).

Further sidenote: I generally dislike Wolvie when he is with the X-Men, but I actually love his solo adventures. Origins is a really good book (excluding the most recent issue), and Old Man Logan is making me want to read the actual Wolverine comic.

[Yulian]

And while the actual OMD/BND event was poorly conceived and rushed, the ends have justified the means. Spidey is having (relatively) varied adventures again. He is once more a C-Lister as far as the Superhero community is concerned (right up there with Daredevil and Iron Fist). He can still have his traditional team-ups (especially since half the superheroes are obligated to arrest him, thus preventing prolonged team-ups) and rescue people, but he also gets more variety. He can rescue the cop-lady one week, Harry's girlfriend the next, and throw in an MJ appearance to make all the continuity kids freak out. Or he can be persecuted by the news media (for something other than being Peter Parker). Yet, even better, he can have Peter Parker adventures too.

So yeah, people need to get the BND-stick out of their asses and start reading the comic again. Everyone still comments on how convoluted the clone saga was, but that doesn't mean that every single issue is about said clones.

Come now. Villains like Mayhem and Negative Man are stunningly cliched, derivative, and don't add anything new. Joey Q. seems more and more like an arrested development case who was incapable of comprehending how someone in a stable, mature relationship could also have a life (as a superhero, but still). Guess what? I'm an adult, and I like reading about other adults, their lives, and their problems. I want more than juvenile adventure. That's what the Adventures titles are for. Most comic readers are adults now.

I tend to dislike continuity-reboots, but DC usually has the decency to make a big deal out of it. Frankly, the fact that the ramifications of Spidey's ID not being public have not been explored is insulting. Remember, his going public got some people to register and join the Initiative, I guarantee you no one will write anything about what might be different because now, he didn't reveal his ID. It is one of the laziest retcons I've ever seen in comics.

It's the absolute equivalent of "A Wizard did it". Harry's alive, for another thing. No consequences.

I read comics to be immersed in the worlds created. When they are changed, drastically, with no in-world ramifications whatsoever by editorial fiat and not from the organic flow of a story, it takes me completely out of that world. It should tell you something that the writer of OMD almost had his name pulled from it in protest.

I'm off Marvel. The contempt shown for the reader has cost them my money. I get one title from them, JMS's epic Thor series. DC and Dark Horse get my business now, frankly until Joe Q. is out of the top spot. I'm not one of those people who complains about a book but keeps buying it for some stupid reason. I immediately drop a title when stuff like this happens. :)

- Yulian

[Gundato]

Come now. Villains like Mayhem and Negative Man are stunningly cliched, derivative, and don't add anything new. Joey Q. seems more and more like an arrested development case who was incapable of comprehending how someone in a stable, mature relationship could also have a life (as a superhero, but still). Guess what? I'm an adult, and I like reading about other adults, their lives, and their problems. I want more than juvenile adventure. That's what the Adventures titles are for. Most comic readers are adults now.
So what do you want Spidey to do if he isn't allowed to beat up on villains? Should he get a dog and take it for walks? Get a real job? Read what I said before: It isn't so much about Spidey being in a stable relationship, it is about limiting the kinds of stories. Do you notice how very few superheroes are in stable relationships? There are only so many plot hooks, so it is best to be able to fill a refrigerator on a moment's notice. That isn't possible with MJ.


I tend to dislike continuity-reboots, but DC usually has the decency to make a big deal out of it. Frankly, the fact that the ramifications of Spidey's ID not being public have not been explored is insulting. Remember, his going public got some people to register and join the Initiative, I guarantee you no one will write anything about what might be different because now, he didn't reveal his ID. It is one of the laziest retcons I've ever seen in comics.
Actually, they probably won't just because it would cause chaos. And I believe the official line is "He unmasked, but was perceived as just some random nobody"


The rest of the standard BND/OMD response
Again, I cite the Clones. Crap occurs, it doesn't mean that the comic is doomed. Like I said, I think we can all agree that the actual event was crap. But the actual intended effect is great. But hey, feel free to "boycott" it or whatever.

As for the villains being "cliched": I think we can all agree that Captain America is freaking awesome right now. Skull in a box: Not all that revolutionary.
Thor? He is STILL fighting the exact same villains.

People complain about wanting radically different things from comics. Then they complain that they are being alienated when they get it. What it all boils down to is that we want the same plot hooks we have been enjoying for the past fifty years. We want to see Spider-Man rescue a damsel in distress. We want to see Aunt May get put in danger. We want to see Captain America punch a nazi in the face.

[Yulian]

Again, I cite the Clones. Crap occurs, it doesn't mean that the comic is doomed. Like I said, I think we can all agree that the actual event was crap. But the actual intended effect is great. But hey, feel free to "boycott" it or whatever.

As for the villains being "cliched": I think we can all agree that Captain America is freaking awesome right now. Skull in a box: Not all that revolutionary.
Thor? He is STILL fighting the exact same villains.

People complain about wanting radically different things from comics. Then they complain that they are being alienated when they get it. What it all boils down to is that we want the same plot hooks we have been enjoying for the past fifty years. We want to see Spider-Man rescue a damsel in distress. We want to see Aunt May get put in danger. We want to see Captain America punch a nazi in the face.


Don't condescend. It's a product that I pay money for. If I don't like it, I don't buy it. What sort of dense person does otherwise? You mean to say you buy books you don't like reading? It was, in my opinion, a bad move, poorly executed, and having nothing to do with any ongoing stories. So I don't buy it. I vote with my wallet. That's how the grown-up world works.

Umm...Thor isn't fighting the exact same villains. You're obviously not reading the JMS title. Your statement is factually incorrect. It is, in fact, the only Marvel title I buy now. Thor fought in an African civil conflict to retrieve the Warriors Three who were submerged in human identities. So, genocidal African groups drawn pretty much from current world events are the "Exact same villains"? People telling Thor that a surcease to the hatred and violence must come from African hands and not white gods is the same old thing?

That opinion is honestly laughable. Please, be specific as to which "exact same villains" he's fighting and I may take it seriously.

And maybe you like childish stories. I don't. I was getting new things. I read Powers, for instance. I have every TPB plus the special colouring book. Maybe you want trite and tired plot hooks from 50 years ago. I do not. I am, as I said, an adult, and I like adult stories. I don't need childish action. I want to see the world of a comic explored. What drives these people to do what they do? How is the world around the effected?

Spider-Man was married to MJ for twenty years. They told plenty of good stories during that period. Just because people like you and Joe Q. want children's stories doesn't mean the rest of us do.

- Yulian

[Gavin Sage]

Yeah, Spidey having armor was cool and completely new. If you ignore the other times he has made armor of some form.

He has... please cite the number of these occurences. I've heard of a a time that happened once, was agreed to have been stupid and is little spoken of again. Spawned an action figure and a cartoon appearence, after the show had gone shark jumping. The Iron Spidey outfit was made to work with the character and radically different in concept then giving spidey a clunky silver crome palette-swap.

At any rate please name the numerous times. Because I have to suspect this is like Jean Grey, she's died a million times because everyone says it! Only we've got her death way-back when and the one she's still dead from (okay more moved to a higher plane but anyways...) and that's all I actually know of. I've yet to see a list of more then that. I'm very suspicous when people claim things happen all the time in comics, because its so rarely actually established that they do.


And if Spidey isn't fighting villains, what should he be doing? Crossword puzzles? Actually USING his super-intelligence and degree? I know, he can have a kid (wait a moment, there is already a comic about that :p). Or he can go back to school (USM is awesome :p).

Face it, we read 616 Spidey BECAUSE he is 616 Spidey. We know he is going to fight a supervillain, but still make time for petty crooks. We know he is going to have to conceal his identity in some way. We know that bad stuff is going to happen, but we also know that he will pull through it, eventually.

This is not relevant terribly much, certainly fighting villians is great but all you need really need as set-up for that is to start actually doing it.

It wouldn't need any magic solution except Marvel back itself into a corner by not having the balls to actually play CW straight and without the triple layered hypocrisy on Marvel's part. Course even that could have been changed with relatively little plot effect and simply having Peter and Tony quietly make up at the end of things.



If we want somewhat different formulas, we go to different universes. ASG has Peter as a father. USM (the best comic Marvel has right now) is, ironically, so great because it goes back to the older formula. He has to juggle his life as Spidey and his life as Peter, while dealing with relationships (MJ and Kitty. Sidenote: Who else is going to hell? :p), villains who are superior in many ways (There is a reason that pretty much everyone knows who Spidey is...), tragedy (Gwen), and angst (Do you actually need an example of angst in a Spidey book?).

USM is a good comic, but far from the best. And for that matter has only been really good since the Clone Saga.

Also being a 'classic era' bit it makes 616 doing the same thing rather redundant.


You cite Cap and Thor. Bucky may be Cap, but he is still fighting Nazis/Terrorists/Commies. Asgard may be in Oklahoma, but has that really had any effect on the plot whatsoever? The only difference is that Thor can now walk to Asgard.

Aside from being the entire reason precipitating Thor's sound whupping of Iron Man? Or providing excellent comic relief? Or establishing simmering plot threads that can be explored endlessly. The book has just finished building Asgard, but assuming the book is let develop yes being in Okalahoma and interacting with mortals with much great regularity is going to be a plot point of the whole run.

Oh and not too long ago there was a phrase in comic fandom along the lines of "no one stays dead in comic except for Bucky and Uncle Ben" for good reason. Bringing Bucky back is huge, bringing him back and people loving it is a miracle. Also the book's relationship with fighting terrorists could almost be tangential to the real important stuff. First the bombshell of Bucky being alive, then Cap and Bucky attempting to come to terms with this, only to have Cap die suddenly and Bucky have to step up and come to terms with all of that almost alone. Its not about terrorist fighting, its about life and death.


Massive war in space? Kree, Shi'ar, and all the other buggers.

You think the Shi'ar were involved at all?

And taking B to C list characters and rebuilding them into awesome A lister class characters doesn't rank as great? Toppling the central pillar of the Kree Empire gets a shrug? Killing the one of biggest villians names in villiany isn't impressive? Nevermind what happens to Galactus

Oye is this a case of "Marvel is just Wolverine and Spider-man, oh and the X-men" or something?


On a sidenote: For anyone who loves USM, I strongly suggest also grabbing Ultimate Origins (and keeping an eye out for Ultimatum). Looks like Spidey might actually be important to this event, rather than just a tie-in (or a taxi service for Kitty).

Further sidenote: I generally dislike Wolvie when he is with the X-Men, but I actually love his solo adventures. Origins is a really good book (excluding the most recent issue), and Old Man Logan is making me want to read the actual Wolverine comic.

Yeah Ultimate Origins continues the course of Powers and Ultimates in train-wrecking the entire line. I think the entire line has been eroding since they started UFF come to thoug. It just took a while to spread beyond the one book to all but USM. Tieing the entire universe into one chain of dominoes though... sounds okay, if its the lead up to the cancellation of all the books. If its not the cancellation though then it compromises the story telling potential in a rather crippling manner. I don't think I can look at Samuel L. Fury ever again in the same way.

Oh and I'm a polar opposite, Wolverine is not a character I want to see in a solo book. Ever. Bad match for the character, no X-character needs more then an occaisonal limited-series. Two is right out. That said I have no opinion on the current storyline's quality in either book. Every time I've peeked at either hasn't been rewarding for me. Only thing I think I liked about W:O was this variant cover where Logan had the Canadian flag tatoo on his face. I hear things about a son and groan because Logan already has a quasi-sister/surrogate-daughter I like a lot.

[Dalenthas]

I like the main Marvel Universe. I'm a big fan. I'm one of those continuity geeks that tries to figure out how everything fits together. I'm one of those people who disagreed with OMD, but have confidence that eventually they'll bring a conclusion to the BND storyline. And explanations for how everything changed. Just not all at once. That'd be a lame copout.

Do I disagree with some things? Sure. For one, the demonization of Anthony Edward Stark. Though, from what I can see, that's almost as much a product of fans with selective observation powers just hating on the character for no good reason. It didn't help that during/right after Civil War pretty much every single comic had him show up just to get beat on by the title character.
The Red Hulk storyline going on? WTF is that about? That's kinda lame. I think the only reason that title has gotten this far is entirely on the 'mystery' of Rulk's identity. The writing and art certainly aren't good enough to sustain it.
I was just starting to like Fantastic Four when Mark Millar and Brain Hitch took over, and they tried to make it "edgy" and "new", which translates for me as "boring" and "poorly drawn".

Anyhow, I'm digressing. Marvel rawks. Go Iron Man!

[Gundato]

Don't condescend. It's a product that I pay money for. If I don't like it, I don't buy it. What sort of dense person does otherwise? You mean to say you buy books you don't like reading? It was, in my opinion, a bad move, poorly executed, and having nothing to do with any ongoing stories. So I don't buy it. I vote with my wallet. That's how the grown-up world works.

Umm...Thor isn't fighting the exact same villains. You're obviously not reading the JMS title. Your statement is factually incorrect. It is, in fact, the only Marvel title I buy now. Thor fought in an African civil conflict to retrieve the Warriors Three who were submerged in human identities. So, genocidal African groups drawn pretty much from current world events are the "Exact same villains"? People telling Thor that a surcease to the hatred and violence must come from African hands and not white gods is the same old thing?

That opinion is honestly laughable. Please, be specific as to which "exact same villains" he's fighting and I may take it seriously.

And maybe you like childish stories. I don't. I was getting new things. I read Powers, for instance. I have every TPB plus the special colouring book. Maybe you want trite and tired plot hooks from 50 years ago. I do not. I am, as I said, an adult, and I like adult stories. I don't need childish action. I want to see the world of a comic explored. What drives these people to do what they do? How is the world around the effected?

Spider-Man was married to MJ for twenty years. They told plenty of good stories during that period. Just because people like you and Joe Q. want children's stories doesn't mean the rest of us do.

- Yulian

Yes, I am being condescending :p

Yes, I did stop reading Thor probably right after Loki-chick popped up. Why? Because I just lost interest. Feel free to blast me for that, but whatever. But here is what I basically saw: Fight a bunch of generic redshirts/grunts, finding the old villains so he can keep fighting them.

And again, what kind of adult stories do you want out of Spider-Man? Do you want him to uncover a slavery ring (he did in the past few months, for the record :p)? What it all boils down to is: A guy in spandex beating the crap out of other guys in spandex isn't really an "adult" thing. There are comics that take an "adult" approach (Squadron Supreme, and Ultimates to an extent), but I don't see that doing anything but alienating Spidey fans (if done in 616).

And yet again: Please stop citing the generic anti-BND/OMD line. EVERYBODY has heard it a few hundred times already.
Yes, Peter was married for 20 years and had some great stories. But for the past two or three years, he has been in the crapper. Why? The writers boxed themselves into a corner. With the fugitive arc, Peter only really had two (maybe three) non-super hero characters who he can regularly interact with on any meaningful level in any given story. It just so happened that one of them was his wife, which limits the chance to have a rotating character (his girlfriend of the week as it were). Furthermore, by making said two characters so important to the mythos, they couldn't even be shoved in a refrigerator. It wasn't so much that Spidey needed to be "carefee" and "thirty years old, but living in his Aunt's basement". It was that there needed to be a way to give the writers options for their plothooks. Plus, take a look at how awkward Mighty Avengers was when the entire first half of the series happens over the course of a day in "real-time". If they had stuck with the fugitive angle, every Spider-Man comic would still have to say "The events take place before New Avengers #X" or whatever, and it would just be awkward. Sure the story might be great, but it would also leave continuity a mess (especially since any appearances by Spidey in SI or Dark Reign would be awkward and limited to avoid spoiling anything).
Look, at the end of the day, 616 is about the classic characters. If you want new characters who can change, go with 1610/Ultimates. Hell, the F4 are most likely going to be dying in Ultimatum for crying out loud. There can be changes to the characters (Captain Bucky for example), but the formulas will never change (Captain Bucky still beats on Nazis/Commies).


Sage (I really don't feel like doing the ninety million quote approach):
I didn't say numerous times. I am just referring to the actual armor, and then his various suit modifications for various fights (almost always Electro). One could also mention Spider-Man Unlimited (right down to the suit being triggered by a watch :p). Not a lot, but my point was to show that even the Iron Spider gear wasn't all that new of an idea. For the record: I really liked it, but I also loved the concept of Spider-Man's own suit working against him (and needing to be rescued by The Punisher in his last tolerable 616 appearance).

Oklahoma: Nothing relavent has happened yet (by your own admission) :p. And the awkward and random Thor/Stark fight was just another example of "Duhr, people hate Stark right now. Let's draw him getting beat up in a manner that would never actually happen outside of fan-service". So if we are gauging plotlines on the merit of what might happen, OMD/BND is amazing. Spider-Man is going to have to venture into Hell and team up with Captain America (he had a thing for little boys...) to fight Dr. Doom (who just took over Hell because he was bored) for the fate of Spidey's most recent missing kid (they should really get baby leashes). OH MAH GAWDXZ!!!! OMD IS AMAZING!!! :p

Shi'ar mention: I was pointing to all the many space-wars Marvel has had in the past. Annihilation wasn't anything new, it was just really well written (Dan Abnett knows a thing or two about sci-fi wars :p).

Captain Bucky: While really well written, this isn't the first time Cap has not been Steve. It just so happens that they are doing a good job with this one. And Bucky has been alive for years, and his comeback (Winter Soldier) was viewed as crap by almost everyone if I recall correctly. It is just now that he is Cap that people can tolerate him. I loved it since the start, but that is because I also enjoy the comics where Bucky was still alive :p

Ultimate Origins/Ultimatum: Hell, the Ultimate universe in general is a perfect example of what I am trying to say. People demand different stories and change, but the moment their beloved characters (in a different universe) are different, they are "unlikeable" and the plots are "train wrecks". Excluding UX-Men and Ultimates V3 (which apparently we were supposed to hate?), I have loved the Ultimate universe. I even liked UF4 (although, it helps that I really dislike every other Fantastic Four). It takes the stuff we grew up on, and tweaks it. Cap for example, is actually kind of a bigoted jerk (which fits right in with how he was raised). That doesn't change the character being awesome, but it makes it more believable. And honestly, I still love Ultimate (Black) Fury. Especially with Origins, he is being portrayed as exactly what you would expect from a CIA/SHIELD agent: He is not a nice guy. He is pretty much pure evil. But he is a necessary evil who has the good of the USA/World in mind.

But I digress. I am NOT defending how OMD/BND was handled. What I am trying to say is that, as crappy as that event was, the aftermath is great (and maybe even necessary, to keep Spidey a viable character). We are all admitting that Captain America is amazing right now, right? Well the Death of Captain America (and Civil War) were a perfect example of "We have a great idea, now let's rush it and keep it politically correct". Does the crappiness of CW affect how awesome Cap is right now? So why does the crappiness of OMD/BND change how awesome ASM is right now? It still isn't amazing, but it is pretty damned good. I am not saying to buy every issue just because I like it. I am saying to wait until the end of the Anti-Venom arc, and grab an issue or two (or grab a TPB). Just give it a shot.

On the topic of Wolvie: It helps that I really don't like the X-Men. They were great when they first popped up (thinly veiled political statements), but now it just feels tired. They are a perfect example of why the sliding timeline, while great, isn't perfect. They just feel out of place. Plus, it doesn't help that they are constantly proving everyone right about why muties are dangerous/bad (and, in UX-Men, actually DOING things like messing with people's minds, just because they can). Wolvie actually is an interesting character to me (when they don't try to pretend he kills everything he meets. Seriously, the guy's rogue's gallery is WAY too big to be the cold-blooded killer they claim him to be).
And don't worry, Daken isn't going to be on Team Snikt (I mean X-Force :p) any time soon.

For those wondering: The current plan for Ultimatum is that it will wipe out UX-Men and UF4 (whether or not the characters will be gone is unknown), but keeping USM. Then, the three core books will be USM, Ultimates v4 (they have no choice...), and Ultimate Avengers (apparently focused on the black ops team of Ultimate Hawkeye/Bullseye, Ultimate Punisher, and a few others), with the fourth book slot being open for mini-series and one-shots.

[Friv]

At any rate please name the numerous times. Because I have to suspect this is like Jean Grey, she's died a million times because everyone says it! Only we've got her death way-back when and the one she's still dead from (okay more moved to a higher plane but anyways...) and that's all I actually know of. I've yet to see a list of more then that. I'm very suspicous when people claim things happen all the time in comics, because its so rarely actually established that they do.

This is a little off-topic, but... most of the times that Jean Grey dies, she has returned within an issue or two. A few times, she's been dead longer. The list:

1) Becoming Phoenix (Uncanny X-Men #101-108, 1979)
2) Suiciding as Dark Phoenix (Uncanny X-Men #129-138, 1980-1)
3) Murdered by Sentinels (Uncanny X-Men #281, 1992)
4) Stabbed by Wolverine (2004ish?)
5) Killed by Xorn ("Planet X": New X-Men #150, 2004)
6) Revived and then removed from reality (X-Men: Phoenix Endsong, 2005)

Those are the ones Wikipedia thought were worth mentioning; there may or may not be others.

[alchemyprime]

Okay, um... I'd like it if we could avoid a flame war...

So apparently we're all torn. I'm the guy who will always give his favorite seriess a new shot (and some I don't care for another chance).

So I've come to a conclusion (which I had already reached): Retcons are bad, but if you need to do them, make them BIG and leave no loose ends. Is that essentially the lesson we should all learn here today?

[Ascension]

Well, I've been boycotting Marvel in general since the whole OMD/BND fiasco. I've said that I wouldn't come back until Quesada was out of a job, but my willpower's starting to waver. I need comics, and the IDW Transformers titles, while fun, aren't filling my superhero quota. I don't want to go DC, and nearly all the indy publishers go for the niche markets, so I might end up coming back to Marvel again. I was reading Ms. Marvel, Iron Man, ASM, both Avengers titles, and the Initiative before I dropped everything like a hot potato, but I'm afraid with all this Skrull stuff the plot's too far progressed to easily catch up with again. Plus, I don't even like Skrulls. I might start trying out alt. universe stuff now.

[Gavin Sage]

Shi'ar mention: I was pointing to all the many space-wars Marvel has had in the past. Annihilation wasn't anything new, it was just really well written (Dan Abnett knows a thing or two about sci-fi wars :p).

Conceptually its not new, but then nothing is conceptually new. That doesn't mean there weren't some serious changes packed in with things. It had well written development of characters, not simply spinning in a formula.

You can write acceptable comics by formula, you write excellent comics by changing things. And making those changes improve the story, an important distinction.



Captain Bucky: While really well written, this isn't the first time Cap has not been Steve. It just so happens that they are doing a good job with this one. And Bucky has been alive for years, and his comeback (Winter Soldier) was viewed as crap by almost everyone if I recall correctly. It is just now that he is Cap that people can tolerate him. I loved it since the start, but that is because I also enjoy the comics where Bucky was still alive :p

The guy I buy my comics from every week has been collecting Cap from the 70s, and he thinks the Brubaker run has been the best ever. I was hearing glowing remarks about the Winter Soldier story long before Cap's death from pretty much every quarter. So I have to challenge that recollection as not matching with my own experience.

Also the others that have worn the Cap uniform have been largely portrayed as pretenders while the real Cap has been off doing his concientous objector schtick. Cap wasn't dead, America just wasn't living up to its ideals as well as it could. Bucky however has been presented as the just and rightful heir, because Cap is dead. Making a radically different story then what's been told before.


Ultimate Origins/Ultimatum: Hell, the Ultimate universe in general is a perfect example of what I am trying to say. People demand different stories and change, but the moment their beloved characters (in a different universe) are different, they are "unlikeable" and the plots are "train wrecks". Excluding UX-Men and Ultimates V3 (which apparently we were supposed to hate?), I have loved the Ultimate universe. I even liked UF4 (although, it helps that I really dislike every other Fantastic Four). It takes the stuff we grew up on, and tweaks it. Cap for example, is actually kind of a bigoted jerk (which fits right in with how he was raised). That doesn't change the character being awesome, but it makes it more believable. And honestly, I still love Ultimate (Black) Fury. Especially with Origins, he is being portrayed as exactly what you would expect from a CIA/SHIELD agent: He is not a nice guy. He is pretty much pure evil. But he is a necessary evil who has the good of the USA/World in mind.

Here becomes the importance of good storytelling and solid concept. I love the early Ultimate universe. Most particularly UXM followed by the first Ultimates. What I like was stipping down the Marvel universe into its inherent normality (as opposed to DC which is more modern mythology in nature) and giving it all a place to run. There was an edge to everything that made for great reading. Backed by good writing, or at least acceptable writing.

That edge begins to blunt with the UFF starting up. The most meaningful detail changed is the FF ages back to teens. There's no edge to the book like one finds in the other three mains. UFF has to my experience not been Ultimate UFF but FF 616-Redux. Maybe that doesn't make sense but bear with me.

Every book but USM in the line now has fallen to this same basic problem. And what it amounts to is not people whining about how things are different and thus suck, but that Marvel listened too much to that criticism and fell into trying to establish the 616 status quo. Ultimate has lost too much of its realistic/gritty edge and as such is slowly collapsing for lack of identity. (Most clear in Ultimates 3, biggest contrast can be seen in Ultimate Nighmare versus Ultimate Secret)

And Samuel L. Fury not being a Badass Normal afterall is a classic example of an unneeded and badly done retcon. The entire Ultimate line is now basically one big government plot to create super-soldiers. Not my cup of tea at all.


And don't worry, Daken isn't going to be on Team Snikt (I mean X-Force :p) any time soon.

Better stay that way, that's the book I read to feel badass and enjoy Warpath and X-23 who I like a great deal.


For those wondering: The current plan for Ultimatum is that it will wipe out UX-Men and UF4 (whether or not the characters will be gone is unknown), but keeping USM. Then, the three core books will be USM, Ultimates v4 (they have no choice...), and Ultimate Avengers (apparently focused on the black ops team of Ultimate Hawkeye/Bullseye, Ultimate Punisher, and a few others), with the fourth book slot being open for mini-series and one-shots.

Honestly I'd keep just USM and junk the rest. Okay UXM could be rebuilt if it stopped using drugs. Figuratively, I've got no issue with the literal bit. However what's been in Origins has to be retconned/revealed as total bullcrap since it undermines the core of the mutant concept.

On the others.... ick is my response.


This is a little off-topic, but... most of the times that Jean Grey dies, she has returned within an issue or two. A few times, she's been dead longer. The list:

1) Becoming Phoenix (Uncanny X-Men #101-108, 1979)
2) Suiciding as Dark Phoenix (Uncanny X-Men #129-138, 1980-1)
3) Murdered by Sentinels (Uncanny X-Men #281, 1992)
4) Stabbed by Wolverine (2004ish?)
5) Killed by Xorn ("Planet X": New X-Men #150, 2004)
6) Revived and then removed from reality (X-Men: Phoenix Endsong, 2005)

Those are the ones Wikipedia thought were worth mentioning; there may or may not be others.

Okay well by the numbers:

1) Not really any sense, at most this is ascending to a higher level as a means of miraculous survivial.
2) The famous one, but even this is technically someone else. (I practice discontinuity on that latter notion myself, Jean died!)
3) Does severely injured and hiding in someone else's body for two issues count?
4) Not death by a long shot really, given most others it probably would have been a mercy killing before roasting in the sun. Still not a death at all. Unless this is some other part of the Morrison run that's slipped my mind.
5) Xorneto yep. In the most technical sense this is the first time.
6) I though the book was fairly clear this wasn't a resurrection so much as a "Yes, we mean it," message to wrap up that Jean will only come back if she wants to. Its really just under number 5.

Personally for me this leaves the count at two, one having stuck for longer then anyone would have believed when it happened.