What the name of that bad marvel artist

[Arakune]

The guy who never learned to draw foot, woman, and a lots of things but still is a renowed(!!!) artitst?

[SurlySeraph]

Rob Liefeld?

[Arakune]

Rob Liefeld?

That bastard! Thank you.

[hanzo66]

You mean like this? (http://progressiveboink.com/archive/robliefeld.html)

[Jayngfet]

The moment you said bad artist I thought of Liefeld.

[factotum]

Just amazed at the first example of his art on hanzo66's link--that woman is clearly deformed in major and life-threatening ways!

[Hunter Noventa]

Wow. Just wow. it's better than i can draw sure...but I'm not sure I would be proudof that.

[Jayngfet]

Forearm reminds me of the Ben10 character. Only even more shallow and annoying.

[bosssmiley]

I hear Rob Liefeld looks at Alex Ross' artwork and then cries himself to sleep every night :smallamused:

[Tengu_temp]

This guy makes One Piece looks realistic.

[feghoot]

I found number 37 to be thought provoking, specifically the line "This blood's for you". This meaning that the writer and artist are filling the pages full of gore and suffering so that you'll buy it.

Deep.

[Justyn]

This guy makes One Piece looks realistic.

No, One Piece's art is stylized, this guy's art is just bad.

[RandomLogic]

You mean like this? (http://progressiveboink.com/archive/robliefeld.html)

That is awesome! Made my day.

I have that Cable & Deadpool comic and I looked at that gun and went "thats totally offcenter"

[Hawriel]

He is the reason I stopped reading comic books in the 90s.

[Tengu_temp]

No, One Piece's art is stylized, this guy's art is just bad.

I am aware of that. You know you fail if your art, which is supposed to be realistic, is less realistic than stylized art.

[Nevrmore]

I crack up every time I read the line, "How many teeth are in a mouth? Like a billion, right? I'll just draw a billion teeth, all the same size and shape."

[Jimorian]

An example (http://grotesqueanatomy.blogspot.com/2004/05/now-thats-grotesque-anatomy.html) the guys in the article missed.

[Dode]

I hear Rob Liefeld looks at Alex Ross' artwork and then cries himself to sleep every night :smallamused:
"Why can't I draw doughy old men in unflattering spandex like him?!?" :smallconfused:

[Piedmon_Sama]

Alex Ross's problem is his people are all suffering premortem rigor mortis, but I don't see how you can call his Superman or Batman "doughy" just because he draws them realistically. They still look like strong guys, they just don't have the apparent 0% body fat that would make most cartoon characters collapse and die IRL.

[Eerie]

You mean like this? (http://progressiveboink.com/archive/robliefeld.html)

Thank you hanzo66. You made my morning. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

But this one is by far the worst. Don`t look inside:

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Egrotesqueanatomy/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/capnekkid.jpg

[Zeful]

Ahh... the power of steriods

[bosssmiley]

Thank you hanzo66. You made my morning. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

But this one is by far the worst. Don`t look inside:

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Egrotesqueanatomy/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/capnekkid.jpg

Why can't I Ctrl+Z my mind? WHY??? :smalleek:

[AKA_Bait]

Thank you hanzo66. You made my morning. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

But this one is by far the worst. Don`t look inside:

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Egrotesqueanatomy/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/capnekkid.jpg

It's not a tumor!

[Tengu_temp]

For someone so muscled (his arm looks like an elephant's leg), you'd expect Cap to be... larger.

[Zeful]

Steroids have a tendency to shrink the male reporductive organs, it's why body builders can wear such tiny speedos.

[Spiryt]

Steroids have a tendency to shrink the male reporductive organs, it's why body builders can wear such tiny speedos.

Actually, as far as I know, it's a myth.

Steroids can cause shrinkage (but also growth) when somebody take them in puberty (the time when they're developing). Once someone's and adult, it's not very possible.

[Zeful]

So all bodybuilders are simply compensaiting for their small pakage?
...
...
It's scary how much sense that makes.

[Spiryt]

So all bodybuilders are simply compensaiting for their small pakage?
...
...
It's scary how much sense that makes.

I don't know, maybe I'm weird, but I don't stare at other's guys speedos :smalltongue:

[Jade Falcon]

You mean like this? (http://progressiveboink.com/archive/robliefeld.html)

:smallconfused:

someone who makes a living as an comic book artist, should have an idea of human anatomy

[Zeful]

I don't know, maybe I'm weird, but I don't stare at other's guys speedos :smalltongue:

If you've seen bodybuilders you immeadiatly notice the speedo amonst the oversized muscles. It's a different color. I don't try to stare but it's like a train wreck you can't look away fast enough.

[Oslecamo]

I swear I stoped reading marvel for years because of this guy.

I was like "When the ***** the world's mightiest heros became freaking ballet dancers????"

No, seriously, who the hell has such small feets?

[Zeful]

What's also wierd is the hugely oversized calves, I met a guy who was a track and field guy, and his calves were huge but so was he. On that website hanzo66 posted, it has a picture of spiderman with huge horse cavles. Spiderman.

[AslanCross]

What's also wierd is the hugely oversized calves, I met a guy who was a track and field guy, and his calves were huge but so was he. On that website hanzo66 posted, it has a picture of spiderman with huge horse cavles. Spiderman.

The iconic Liefeld Captain America is still the most disturbing in my book. He has moobs and 18-inch arms, it seems.

[Spiryt]

The iconic Liefeld Captain America is still the most disturbing in my book. He has moobs and 18-inch arms, it seems.

IMO it's kinda small problem compared to the fact that his spine kinda bends almost 90 degrees just beneath the arms, and never goes back to the level of head...

[AslanCross]

IMO it's kinda small problem compared to the fact that his spine kinda bends almost 90 degrees just beneath the arms, and never goes back to the level of head...

...ouch. He needs an epic level chiropractor.

[Helanna]

:smallconfused: :smallyuk: :smallannoyed: :smallmad: :smallfrown: :smalleek: :smallfurious:

. . . This guy gets paid for drawing?

No, seriously, what does he do?

. . . He draws for a living?!?!?

You're joking, right? Because *I* could probably draw better anatomy than him. And I can't draw at all, nor do I know anything about anatomy other than, oh, say, it has to obey the laws of PHYSICS!

I'm rather scared now. People paid him for that stuff? I really can't quite get over it! He got paid?!?

[Ascension]

I'm rather scared now. People paid him for that stuff? I really can't quite get over it! He got paid?!?

Bags and bags of money, I'm afraid.

I know, I know, it's sad.

I sometimes wonder if he isn't just doing self-parody these days... I mean it's hard to believe someone could be that terrible without realizing it.

[Zeful]

:smallconfused: :smallyuk: :smallannoyed: :smallmad: :smallfrown: :smalleek: :smallfurious:

. . . This guy gets paid for drawing?

No, seriously, what does he do?

. . . He draws for a living?!?!?

You're joking, right? Because *I* could probably draw better anatomy than him. And I can't draw at all, nor do I know anything about anatomy other than, oh, say, it has to obey the laws of PHYSICS!

I'm rather scared now. People paid him for that stuff? I really can't quite get over it! He got paid?!?

It's sad, I know. I can't do anatomy either, at least not without a model of some kind present. And it still sucks. Better than this guy.

Wait, I've been able to do better (if flat) anatomy since the fifth grade. At least my shirtless dudes don't look like some kind of freak experiment.

[FoE]

You know, I used to read the New Mutants in high school, and looking at this really gave me a few laughs. This stuff was so cool when I was 12, but now it's just horrible. Check out that chick on the first page; she needs a goddam chiropractor.

Why do ALL the characters wear gloves?
Why do ALL the male characters squint?
Why are the male characters' costumes so tight against their butts?

AH! STUPID SEXY HUMAN TORCH!

[Seraph]

I think it says something about liefeld that all the op had to say was "that one bad marvel artist," and we all instantly knew who he was talking about.

[Zeful]

I didn't know what he meant, but I went to the link on the first page and saw many bad doodles proclaiming themselves as "art".

[Jimorian]

Another good page about Rob Liefeld. Explains more of the "WHY? OH GOD WHY IS HE POPULAR???"

http://www.i-mockery.com/comics/dork4/default.php

(The URL was just too tasty to hide behind a word link)

[AslanCross]

...wow, just wow. After viewing his 40 worst drawings, I realized I could draw better women than him when I was in 5th grade.

I should get paid.

[Oslecamo]

I think I understand it now.

This is a perfect case of "So bad it's actually good".

On the other hand, many mangas are popular, and well, mangas very rarely if ever care about physics or realistic body representations.

Altough they do it on the oposite direction of Rob Liefield.Small bodies, smoth skily skin and huge heads. Go figure.

[Ravens_cry]

I like manga's delcasy of line, how it flows. It isn't realistic, but it is expressive. It is designed to tell stories, any kind of story.
This guys work makes all the men look like unshaven constipated battle-dogs, and woman look like some kind of weird meat sculpture of Jessica Rabbit with no internal organs.

[Oslecamo]

Guess what? There are people out there who like that and go buy the books like they were candy.

Marvel comics isn't designed to tell stories. It's designed to show people with powers, muscles and big weapons bashing at each other for any and every reason.

C'mon, how else do you explain an universe where everything and everyone wants to come to Earth to spread destruction? Super creatures literally pop out of thin air to join the fray and not even death can stop it, because dead heros and villains just come back to life to keep bashing at each other.

[Ravens_cry]

We are not calling for realism. What we are calling for, is some basic anatomy. It is in a 'realistic' style, unlike most Manga, and yet visually,things don't make sense. At least a good manga is consistent, which is more important then realism. Fingers that are all thumbs, woman with waists that look they couldn't fit a spine inside, and curved so far it must be broken. It isn't just that the visual vocabulary is off, it is that they don't know how to speak it themselves.
I can't nearly draw as well as this guy, yet there is flaws in it I don't even do.

[Oslecamo]

And how is that worse than people who don't die when they're on fire, raping of therdominamics all day long, skin invulnerable to bullets, and everything else.

Like the other guy on the parody article said, maybe it's their superpower. To have all their internal and external organs twisted and everchanging.:smalltongue:

[Arioch]

And how is that worse than people who don't die when they're on fire, raping of therdominamics all day long, skin invulnerable to bullets, and everything else?

Because that's the plot. It's supposed to be like that. It can still have good art, and bad art still detracts from that.

[Ascension]

Marvel comics isn't designed to tell stories. It's designed to show people with powers, muscles and big weapons bashing at each other for any and every reason.

:smallconfused:

Sure you're not talking about DC there? [/fanboy]

Seriously (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_Come_(comics)), though, I thought (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_Vendetta) we were (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen) past the whole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_The_Dark_Knight_Returns) comics-aren't (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_The_Killing_Joke)-serious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astro_City) thing already...

[Zeful]

And how is that worse than people who don't die when they're on fire, raping of therdominamics all day long, skin invulnerable to bullets, and everything else.

Like the other guy on the parody article said, maybe it's their superpower. To have all their internal and external organs twisted and everchanging.:smalltongue:

People don't die when on fire, not immediately at least. Also the "Laws" of Thermodynamics aren't actually Laws. Laws are universal truths, we know nothing of the whole universe, just our very tiny corner. The "Laws of Physics" are merely the Uncontested Theories of Physics, but that doesn't sound as definite.

And DBZ is the only anime/manga were people are actually immune to bullets that I know of. Everyone else is simply smarter than the gunman.

[Ascension]

And DBZ is the only anime/manga were people are actually immune to bullets that I know of. Everyone else is simply smarter than the gunman.

I can list other examples, particularly since he was talking about American comics (Superman, Hulk, many others) as well.

An artist can be stylized and be good, but stylized art requires consistency, something Liefeld lacks. He's not decent by any standard.

[Tengu_temp]

And DBZ is the only anime/manga were people are actually immune to bullets that I know of. Everyone else is simply smarter than the gunman.

Oooh, I know one more example! Al from Full Metal Alchemist. A young teenage boy who's completely immune to bullets, and even passively hurt some people who shot at him with ricochets.

[Zeful]

Oooh, I know one more example! Al from Full Metal Alchemist. A young teenage boy who's completely immune to bullets, and even passively hurt some people who shot at him with ricochets.

He's an animated suit of armor, he has an excuse that works.

[Ravens_cry]

I know we are dragging this off topic, but peer pressure, whats can you do?
AL is also CONSISTENTLY immune to bullets. It doesn't affect him one day, and not another. And while he is just as immune to swords, if someone is riding him on the inside, they can get stabbed through chinks in the armor

[Closet_Skeleton]

He's an animated suit of armor, he has an excuse that works.

People in DBZ have stupid training and Ki powers. It's an excuse that works.

Al is way too armoured to be realistic. He's supposed to be wearable by a person but if he was really that tough it would be impossible to move in him. Al is unrealistically bulky. Any suit of real plate armour would be torn apart by a machine gun in seconds.

[Zeful]

Really sucky guns then. However he's needed repair before, so what's stopping ED from adding a couple extra pounds of steel to the one vulnerable area? Iron should be pretty cheep.

[kpenguin]

:smallconfused:

Sure you're not talking about DC there? [/fanboy]

Seriously (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_Come_(comics)), though, I thought (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_Vendetta) we were (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen) past the whole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_The_Dark_Knight_Returns) comics-aren't (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_The_Killing_Joke)-serious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astro_City) thing already...

Ironically, none of those are Marvel and most, in fact, are DC.

[Ascension]

Ironically, none of those are Marvel and most, in fact, are DC.

I realize that. I think Marvel produces better ongoing series, but DC certainly has the advantage in limited series. While I think they're more than just beat-em-ups, I wasn't sure if Marvel examples would be cerebral enough to use as counterexamples for our friend there, so I went with the better known, more widely acclaimed examples.

[FoE]

Al is way too armoured to be realistic. He's supposed to be wearable by a person but if he was really that tough it would be impossible to move in him. Al is unrealistically bulky. Any suit of real plate armour would be torn apart by a machine gun in seconds.

Wait, wait. Al's body is a suit of decorative armour. I don't think it's meant to be worn by anyone; that female manticore in the anime barely took up half of the space inside Al. Granted, she wasn't huge, but I can't see anyone except perhaps Armstrong fitting inside Al.

Gods, the innuendos in that sentence ...

[Cubey]

Also, how can he move if he doesn't have tendons?! :smallfurious:

[MeklorIlavator]

Also, how can he move if he doesn't have tendons?! :smallfurious:

Uhh...magic? That's pretty much what alchemy(and alchemy regarding the soul) is.

[Cubey]

I was being sarcastic, hence the tag. But anyway... if alchemy makes Al moveable despite not having muscles or tendons, then so can he be immune to bullets via the same alchemy. Ed fixes him if he gets damaged on a regular basis, it's only logical that he'd fortify Al's body to be thicker and bulletproof as well. I may be mistaken, but Al seems heavier than a piece of armor (even for his hulking size) would be - another proof that he could be thickened/fortified.

[Spiryt]

Let me be sure, guys,

You are talking about this (http://www.animedistrict.com/anime/fullmetalalchemist/vol2boxartl.jpg), and about physics, and realy existing armors, at the same time :smallconfused:?

It's not connected to each other in any way. It's just a... show, I guess, though I don't know it.

[Cubey]

Yes. Because the show tries to have its "magic" (called Alchemy) more or less realistic, or at least pays more attention to realism and things making sense using real-world physics than most shonen shows. Not saying that Naruto or Bleach don't make sense (most of the time. Ba-dum-psh!), but they're not using real world physics. Fullmetal Alchemist tries to.

[Jack_Banzai]

I also enjoy the allegations of Liefeld "swiping" from other comic artists because he is incapable of creating an interesting action pose or drawing in any kind of recognizable perspective.

http://julien-gautier.club.fr/rob_copie.jpg

[Spiryt]

I was being sarcastic, hence the tag. But anyway... if alchemy makes Al moveable despite not having muscles or tendons, then so can he be immune to bullets via the same alchemy. Ed fixes him if he gets damaged on a regular basis, it's only logical that he'd fortify Al's body to be thicker and bulletproof as well. I may be mistaken, but Al seems heavier than a piece of armor (even for his hulking size) would be - another proof that he could be thickened/fortified.

Well, if it's really trying to be realistic, then let me say that sufficently thick steel would of course bounce most bullets off.
Not to mention that bullets don't really have anything to damage inside, if he's hollow.

And how exactly big is he, and how much he is supposed to weight?

[Oslecamo]

I realize that. I think Marvel produces better ongoing series, but DC certainly has the advantage in limited series. While I think they're more than just beat-em-ups, I wasn't sure if Marvel examples would be cerebral enough to use as counterexamples for our friend there, so I went with the better known, more widely acclaimed examples.

Excellent, so I shall counter my post with Leonardo da Vinci's paitings. They also aren't Marvel, but hey, you can't say they're horrible drawings anymore can you?

[Ascension]

I also enjoy the allegations of Liefeld "swiping" from other comic artists because he is incapable of creating an interesting action pose or drawing in any kind of recognizable perspective.

http://julien-gautier.club.fr/rob_copie.jpg

:smalleek: That's not just theft, that's blatant theft.

[Ravens_cry]

:smalleek: That's not just theft, that's blatant theft.
HELLS yes that is, especially the airship, thing, whatever. It may be somewhat excusable when your a newbie and apprentice, but this guy is getting PAID to do this.
Liefeld isn't a newbie, he is a double-zero, N00B!

[Zeful]

What's scary is Magneto's face, it looks like he's enjoying getting stabbed in the stomach.

[Oslecamo]

Yes. Because the show tries to have its "magic" (called Alchemy) more or less realistic, or at least pays more attention to realism and things making sense using real-world physics than most shonen shows. Not saying that Naruto or Bleach don't make sense (most of the time. Ba-dum-psh!), but they're not using real world physics. Fullmetal Alchemist tries to.

I must have missed the classes where souls are proven to exist, that they can be used as a power source, and they can be transported to nonorganic containers and keep moving whitout an energy income.

I must also have missed the classes where they taught how to make robotic systems that don't recquire some kind of fuel or bettery. Or the lessons where they explained how by drawing lines on a surface causes massive chemical reactions.


Heck, it's just as believable as the whole chakra thingy from Naruto or bullet proof super strong aliens from Dragon Ball.

[Ascension]

What he means, I think, is that FMA tries to be internally consistent with its alchemy, rather than having the nature of its abilities change to fit the needs of the plot, like so many other characters' powers. He didn't mean to imply that it's actually achievable...

I hope.

And what does Al have to do with Liefeld, anyway?

[Cubey]

What he means, I think, is that FMA tries to be internally consistent with its alchemy, rather than having the nature of its abilities change to fit the needs of the plot, like so many other characters' powers. He didn't mean to imply that it's actually achievable...

I hope.


You mean you can't do things I saw in FMA in real life?! I just thought my transmutation circle was poorly made...

And yeah. Let's not offtopic this thread any further.

[Oslecamo]

What he means, I think, is that FMA tries to be internally consistent with its alchemy, rather than having the nature of its abilities change to fit the needs of the plot, like so many other characters' powers. He didn't mean to imply that it's actually achievable...

But it isn't consistent. Important people don't need internal organs to live. Elric and some others doesn't need sumoning circles. People with the philosopher's stone just do whatever they please. Summoning circles work no matter how badly they're drawn. Al is made of some kind of super alloy wich makes one wonder why the hell normal soldiers don't use armor, since it seems to stop bullets just fine.

And then come the homunculus and any consistency that may have been left is broken into tiny pieces.

FMA is just as consistent as Naruto. Clap hands, fantastic stuff happens to solve the problem in hand.



And what does Al have to do with Liefeld, anyway?

As much as DC has to do with this Liefeld.

[MeklorIlavator]

But it isn't consistent. Important people don't need internal organs to live.
The justification, if I remember, is that the alchemy changed her internal organs so that some organs took over the jobs of other ones. Of course, it doesn't quite work, and she is still dying. This is one of the more inconsistent things, but not a real dealbreaker.

Elric and some others doesn't need sumoning circles. People with the philosopher's stone just do whatever they please.
Actually, this is probably the most consistent part of the whole thing. Ed can do it without the circle because he has seen beyond the door, thus his body acts as a circle(which is why he has to clap, he needs to symbolically close the circle).

People with the philosopher's stone just do whatever they please.
This is because of how alchemy works. It uses souls to power the circles, and the stones are effectively crystallized souls. This makes it easier to draw on greater numbers of souls as the source is closer at hand.

Summoning circles work no matter how badly they're drawn.
A) They're transmutation circles.
B)They work, but they don't work as well. Not that when they want to do the really strong stuff they use carefully drawn circles. I think the explanation is that the rougher circles draw power less efficiently. An analogy would be that we had internal combustion engines 70 years ago that didn't work as well as ones today. Does that mean the internal combustion engine is inconsistent?

Al is made of some kind of super alloy wich makes one wonder why the hell normal soldiers don't use armor, since it seems to stop bullets just fine.

Yeah, just like how in the real world we equip all our soldiers with armor that weights a couple tons...oh wait. Al is bullet proof because his armor is display armor that wouldn't be worn for actual use, and thus could be made heavier.

And then come the homunculus and any consistency that may have been left is broken into tiny pieces.

Not sure what you mean by this. They are pretty much a soul in a body partial made up of red stones(the philosopher's stones little brother), and as we established previously, the stones allow one to do things one normally couldn't because they provide more power.

[Ascension]

As much as DC has to do with this Liefeld.

It seemed like your argument was "Art doesn't matter because comics are stupid," so I was trying to say that comics aren't necessarily stupid.

Yes, I used DC examples. Marvel examples are a bit more controversial. I, for one, liked Civil War, but I was afraid I'd open up a whole new can of worms just mentioning it.

All I'm trying to say is that justifying terrible art on the basis that it isn't any worse than the story it goes along with is a pretty weak argument.

[CTrombley]

Someone mentioned Alex Ross as an example of a comic book artist infinitely superior to Rob Liefeld, and I thought for a second they meant Alex Toth.

This would have still been true, because Alex Toth is really good.

[Oslecamo]

Yeah, just like how in the real world we equip all our soldiers with armor that weights a couple tons...oh wait. Al is bullet proof because his armor is display armor that wouldn't be worn for actual use, and thus could be made heavier.

Except that in the anime, a completely normal teenager picks up Al after falling from a train, dons the armor, and goes around walking just fine.

As for the philosopher's stone, wow, that's really consistent. Alchemy has a set of rules, and nobody on the series cares because there's red stones everywhere thus everybody can do whatever they please, and then handwave it with"a red stone did it". Way to enforce consistency. Hey even Elric had one on his pocket watch.

[MeklorIlavator]

Except that in the anime, a completely normal teenager picks up Al after falling from a train, dons the armor, and goes around walking just fine.
If I remember the scene right, Al was helping him.


As for the philosopher's stone, wow, that's really consistent. Alchemy has a set of rules, and nobody on the series cares because there's red stones everywhere thus everybody can do whatever they please, and then handwave it with"a red stone did it". Way to enforce consistency.
Yes, the rules are consistent. They basically say, you need X amount of power to do Y. Souls consist of D power. Circles channel the energy from souls inefficiently. The more elaborate/specialized the circle, the more efficiently it channels souls. Philosopher's stones/red stones provide souls directly, thus no loss of energy is involved.

Also, I remember only 3 or 4 red stones being shown( the medical alchemist, the guy form that weird village, the church guy, the guy from the episode with the fake fullmetal, and at the end when they remake the philosopher's stone). Of those, all but the medical alchemist were given to the participants by the Homunculi(made of red stone). Yes, they were used in the Ishballan war, but those were apparently lost.

Hey even Elric had one on his pocket watch.
Only in one part where it was supposed to be fuel for the new philosopher's stone.

[Oslecamo]

If I remember the scene right, Al was helping him.

No he wasn't. Al was actually trying to get rid of the kid. Also, he was still unscoscious when he was donned, and only wakes up when the kid is happily cyciling in the road with his new suit of fullplate.



Yes, the rules are consistent. They basically say, you need X amount of power to do Y. Souls consist of D power. Circles channel the energy from souls inefficiently. The more elaborate/specialized the circle, the more efficiently it channels souls. Philosopher's stones/red stones provide souls directly, thus no loss of energy is involved.


By that logic, animes like Dragon Ball and Naruto are just as consistent. You have enough power and training, you can do whatever you want.



Also, I remember only 3 or 4 red stones being shown( the medical alchemist, the guy form that weird village, the church guy, the guy from the episode with the fake fullmetal, and at the end when they remake the philosopher's stone). Of those, all but the medical alchemist were given to the participants by the Homunculi(made of red stone). Yes, they were used in the Ishballan war, but those were apparently lost.

From what I remember, red stones were being secretly placed in all the state alchemist's silver watches. To make sure the government kept power whitout awkward questions such as if it was ethic to keep power by sacrificing human souls.



Only in one part where it was supposed to be fuel for the new philosopher's stone.

See above.

[MeklorIlavator]

No he wasn't. Al was actually trying to get rid of the kid. Also, he was still unscoscious when he was donned, and only wakes up when the kid is happily cyciling in the road with his new suit of fullplate.
Oh, you mean the part where most of the armor was blown away? Sure, you can move around in it then, but you'd be unstable and have easily seen week points( I think the legs are completely uncovered and there is a huge whole in the side).



By that logic, animes like Dragon Ball and Naruto are just as consistent. You have enough power and training, you can do whatever you want.

I really don't understand what your point is here. That consistent rules are consistent? Because that's what you seem to be saying.



From what I remember, red stones were being secretly placed in all the state alchemist's silver watches. To make sure the government kept power without awkward questions such as if it was ethic to keep power by sacrificing human souls.

See above.
Sorta, they were placed in the watches once they gathered near the city, but not before hand. Red Stones were too valuable to risk in routine deployment. Plus, most people don't know about the red stones, and most of those that do don't know the key ingredients. And until he shares, only Ed's father actually knows the fuel source for all alchemy is based off souls: after all, most of the souls come from "our" dimension, and he and Ed are the only ones who have actually gone their. Most people think that equivalent exchange is the rule and the philosopher stones are the source.

[Setra]

No he wasn't. Al was actually trying to get rid of the kid. Also, he was still unscoscious when he was donned, and only wakes up when the kid is happily cyciling in the road with his new suit of fullplate.

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure this wasn't in the manga ... Which may be an excuse as to why it is less consistent.

[Oslecamo]

Oh, you mean the part where most of the armor was blown away? Sure, you can move around in it then, but you'd be unstable and have easily seen week points( I think the legs are completely uncovered and there is a huge whole in the side).

Still much better than going with just the uniform to war. It's pretty much a kevlar suit like the ones used by SWAT teams. And it wasn't unstable, because he was riding a bycicle with it, precisely the kind of thing you need good balance for.



I really don't understand what your point is here. That consistent rules are consistent? Because that's what you seem to be saying.


What I meant to say is that in the anime a lot of rules are refered, such as keeping mass and only being able to create a certain substance if you have the right raw materials. But now you go and say it's only a matter of having enough souls to fuel your aclchemy skills, wich raises the question to where the above rules apeared. Saying that things work one way and then changing it a dozen times during the show for coolness sake isn't consistent.


Also, like Setra comented, the anime really goes nuts on the matter. Things are somewhat more consistent in the manga, altough it still has quircks.

[MeklorIlavator]

Still much better than going with just the uniform to war. It's pretty much a kevlar suit like the ones used by SWAT teams. And it wasn't unstable, because he was riding a bycicle with it, precisely the kind of thing you need good balance for.
You might be right about this, My memory of that episode is indistinct. Of course, the other option is that the armor was created by Hohenheim(it is in his workshop), which could account for some of its peculiar properties. More likely, this is an inconsistency. Still, one case does not prove a pattern



What I meant to say is that in the anime a lot of rules are refered, such as keeping mass and only being able to create a certain substance if you have the right raw materials. But now you go and say it's only a matter of having enough souls to fuel your aclchemy skills, wich raises the question to where the above rules apeared. Saying that things work one way and then changing it a dozen times during the show for coolness sake isn't consistent.

Perhaps its because the rules say something like this:


Yes, the rules are consistent. They basically say, you need X amount of power to do Y. Souls consist of D power. Circles channel the energy from souls inefficiently. The more elaborate/specialized the circle, the more efficiently it channels souls. Philosopher's stones/red stones provide souls directly, thus no loss of energy is involved.


Yes, if you have enough souls, you can pretty much do whatever you like, but you can only channel so many at one time. After all, the souls are taken from alternate world X. The Philosopher's stones/red stones break this rule, however, by providing large numbers of souls directly.

Plus, its not so much changing the way things work as moving from a flawed understanding to a more perfect one. For example, at first they don't know that souls are needed to make red stones, then they find that out, then they fid out that the red stones are effectively the material needed to make the philosopher stone, and then they find out that all alchemy is based off the energy provided by souls, the stone simply gives better access to a greater number of souls.

[Cybren]

He's an animated suit of armor, he has an excuse that works.

Not when you consider what bullets would do to actual suits of armor...

[Oslecamo]

Plus, its not so much changing the way things work as moving from a flawed understanding to a more perfect one. For example, at first they don't know that souls are needed to make red stones, then they find that out, then they fid out that the red stones are effectively the material needed to make the philosopher stone, and then they find out that all alchemy is based off the energy provided by souls, the stone simply gives better access to a greater number of souls.

Considering the amount of people making experiments with red stones troughout the land, and that alchemy has been researched for centuries, it's really incosistent that people believe in the mumbo jumbo of alchemy following a pattern of complicated laws and not being just a matter of sacrificing enough energy to get the job done.

This is, if things are as simple and consistent as you say, then how did only Elric and a very few other people found about it and everybody else created overcomplicated rulings? It's not some medieval dark society they live in.

[Boo]

Yeesh, shut up about the physics of FMA. You're all going off topic. This topic is to dis Rob Liefeld, and call him a plagiarizing jerk.

If you want to really get into the whole FMA thing, then make a new topic specifically for that. Stop derailing this topic.