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View Full Version : Team V Team and metagamers



Draig
2008-09-14, 04:00 PM
Ok well here is the basic gist of it. I have roughly 7-8 people who play DND with me. So instead of making one huge party, i decided to split them up (one team good one team evil) and have them sorta go at it. I've started them at random parts in the world and they objective? Kill the other team.

Now here is the problem. The Evil team has already gotten a pretty good lead and established connections and what not. While the good team is still playing around and not thinking about the other team as a threat.

Normally i would let them just find out the hardway, BUT i'm waiting for when the evil team lays the biggest F-ing ambush or what not, kills team good, and then BAM they don't wanna play.

And advice?



ALSO adding this on to save a thread space. WHat do you do when you have a player that has pretty much read ALL of the books and memorized magic items and stuff? I've tried telling him not to MEtagame but he refuses to listen.

HELP haha

mostlyharmful
2008-09-14, 04:13 PM
Let team good learn the lesson, if they're talking to team evil players they should be aware at least afterwards how much of evils campaign has been about setting up that ambush so it's not unreasonable that a group of airy-fairy hippies got munched. Harsh but that's how you learn paranoia's a state of mind that has certain advantages, like not trying to tape your kidneys back in on a regular basis.

Grynning
2008-09-14, 04:16 PM
Well, by creating a game centered around killing other players you've already created an environment where there is going to be a losing side. I personally think it's kind of a bad plan to begin with, table-top games are meant to be cooperative, not competitive. But, anyways, if the good team is doomed...let them be doomed. Once the evil team kills them - start a new game. Where everyone cooperates. 7-8 players is a big group, but it's manageable, if you find that it's not manageable, split up into two groups, or share dm'ing duties, or something.

As to the "metagamer" - my entire gaming group for a long time was made of people who had memorized the books, and we all managed to stay in character and get caught by surprise just fine. If you remember information easily and like reading the books - you can't help it. Don't punish the guy for having a good memory. People who are well-versed in the rules and mechanics should be an asset, not a hindrance, as they can help other players with questions while you're doing something else.

If he's using knowledge his character wouldn't have, just point out "Your character doesn't know that monster "x" has "y" ability, so just try to make your decision based on what the character has observed." If it gets out of hand and he takes advantage of his rules knowledge too often - homebrew or grab stuff from third-party sources (like these boards!). Make up new monsters and spells he won't have read in a book because they aren't IN a book he has, or completely re-fluff things so he won't recognize them right away. Just remember not to make your own creations party-crushing punishments; keep them balanced with existing stuff.

Breaw
2008-09-14, 04:20 PM
First of all, if you really want to make sure your 'good' party at least has some idea what might come their way, then I would have an NPC tip them off. Party evil has been making all sorts of plans have they? How quiet have they been about their plans? Is there a reasonable way for someone to have heard that party E is setting up an ambush for party G? If not (If party E has been very careful in their planning and haven't left loose ends for party G to pick up on) then I wouldn't interfere. I mean, if one side makes a good plan then it's not your job to punish them for it. my 2c




ALSO adding this on to save a thread space. WHat do you do when you have a player that has pretty much read ALL of the books and memorized magic items and stuff? I've tried telling him not to MEtagame but he refuses to listen.

The simplest way to counter metagaming is homebrewing. Don't use the monster straight out of the MM. Make it so trolls can't regenerate lightning and cold rather than fire and acid. Change how DR works for the mobs you are sending. Give treasure not from any books. It doesn't take much change to thwart the advantage of metagaming. In fact, I have totally destroyed parties with something as simple as making the giants move 2/3 their full movement speed for the first several rounds. Once the players decided how far away they needed to be safe I rushed them and it was game over. Play a little outside the box and metagaming will very quickly become a weakness for that player rather than a strength. Some people may get cranky at this, but many people enjoy being surprised, especially since they didn't think they could be anymore.

Hope this helps.

-B

Keld Denar
2008-09-14, 04:46 PM
Is there any way you can allude to the fact that an evil party is potentially hunting your good party? That way when they figure it out, after the game you can talk to each individually and ask them what their thoughts on the impending conflict may be. Hopefully, you won't lose any players, regardless of what team wins. After the climax, you can start a new campaign, or maybe 2, again with 2 different teams, maybe both indirectly helping each other. Which team do you think would win if it came to blows? The weaker team, you should try to pad with some kind of favorable circumstances, such as advanced intelligence or something. Justify it by saying the more powerful party is more well known, thus the subject of more talk available while gathering information or whatnot. Or maybe drop a dream trance on one of the players with a cryptic prophecy that gives a huge clue, but is sufficiently difficult to interpret correctly.

As far as the rules guy goes...to what extent is he doing it? If its mostly with monsters, you can always refluff your monsters, make up a new name and discription, and there is a good chance that he won't immediately recognize them until the encounter is over. This'll keep him on his toes at least, since if he doesn't immediately recognize a foe as a troll, he won't instantly reach for fire and acid. Similarly, you could create new monsters that are similar, yet slightly different than the origional. For example, an unusual strain of lycanthropes that are completely immune to silver, yet particularly vulnerable to cold iron, or troll like creatures that are healed by fire, but can't regenerate cold/water based attacks.

Flickerdart
2008-09-14, 04:54 PM
If the metagamer gets out of hand, Ikea Tarrasque him. Anything the players can do, the DM can do better.

Keld Denar
2008-09-14, 05:01 PM
If the metagamer gets out of hand, Ikea Tarrasque him. Anything the players can do, the DM can do better.

This is a bad idea, as it'll probably mop up the other players as well and you'll have destroyed too much healthy tissue to cut out a tumor, if you will. You'll probably end up alienating the player, and possibly a couple others who are bitter about having to share the fall.

TheCountAlucard
2008-09-14, 05:08 PM
How 'bout the ol' Head of Vecna?

Draig
2008-09-15, 02:16 PM
LMAO i already head of vecna'd people from both teams in previous campaigns.

Alot of this is helping.

As for the metagamer i wouldn't mind too much about it, yet he is using h is knowledge of magic items to mess with his party. He will convince them that a cloak or statue is useless, spend maybe 100gp of his share of the treasure for it. THEN completely abuse the fact that he is getting more out of the rewards then them.

For that i think i will just let his teammates enact vigilanty justice on him after i warn him.

Anything else keep it coming.

DrizztFan24
2008-09-16, 08:43 AM
As for the metagamer i wouldn't mind too much about it, yet he is using h is knowledge of magic items to mess with his party. He will convince them that a cloak or statue is useless, spend maybe 100gp of his share of the treasure for it. THEN completely abuse the fact that he is getting more out of the rewards then them.



So he's just bluffing his teamates into thinking that the items are useless and buying them from the party for less than they are worth? (Cue Haley and the rocks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html), someone find that please) Maybe have one of the player's remember seeing a similar item as a child and that it was worth much more than the guy if offering. It's a subtle hint that the party might catch on to that they need to be careful with their cash. Besides isn't he in the evil party? That seems kind of evil to me.

Prometheus
2008-09-16, 11:57 AM
If the two groups seem bored trying to prepare themselves and locate each other rather than actually go at, I suggest one of two things:
1) DM engineered chance encounter in a safe zone: Maybe there is a great big contest somewhere that both groups are invited to and attend for the prospect of gold. Maybe they simply both get the same quest (but again, if they bump into each other you want them to be able to control their rage enough not to end the game on the spot). Maybe they just bump into each other.
2) Everything you can do I can undo better: Give each group of PCs a set of quest that ultimately have contradictory goals. Say there is a war, and the first group sabotages the supply lines, the second has to steal goods from the others, the first sets up an ambush, the second is assigned to counterintelligence, etc. Over the course they get the sense that the other PCs have been there (and what their style is) before them and they put extra zeal into their tasks because they know it will make the others PCs lives more complicated. But they don't come into contact unless they actively seek it out.

These are techniques commonly used with PCs and opposing NPCs, so it should extend.

On reuniting the party: Perhaps if the evil team wins (and the players want to play an evil game or keep their characters) have the good team animated as intelligent undead or lycanthropes that are evil alongside them. As for the good team, I say the evil team simply dies and new adventurers join but the old evil PCs have the potential to be brought back as antagonist NPCs.

Draig
2008-09-16, 09:44 PM
lol Haley and the Rocks is EXACTLY the example i needed. Yeah thats pretty much whats going on. But its starting to work itself out. (for reference the meta is on the good team)


And as for having them meet and contradictory missions thats a great idea. The evil team started a rumor that the good guys JUST caught word of that is gonna make them sidetrack. Thus giving Team Evo more time to cause mischief in the next town. So after a while the Good team should realize that Team E passes JUST in front of them.

Burley
2008-09-17, 07:52 AM
I have been following this thread for a day or so, but I just realized that it's
"Team versus Team." Your thread title led me to believe that one of the teams named themselves "Team: V Team." I was expecting the other to be the Cheat Commandos or something. (Rock, Rock On!)

Um, anyways, I think you're handling the whole situation well. I think if one team is "lagging" then, that's fine. The Good Guys (who are falling behind?) should have the sense of mind to get out there and do something.