PDA

View Full Version : Charisma of 1



Singhilarity
2008-09-14, 05:06 PM
So, I'm DMing a game (it's progressing slowly, but this is besides the point) and it's my first time through.

Two players.

One of them has a Charisma of 1.
The rest of his stats are quite beautiful, and he's playing a Druid.

I've been wondering about the full extent of said penalty.

First and foremost, I ruled that as a child, he had a physical trauma that caused extreme facial disfigurement.
We ended up with it being that he was bit by a Cockatrice, and, while anti-venom was administered, his lower jaw and neck are horribly scarred, twisted, and dry/scaly.

The Druidic meditations and practices have helped relieve him somewhat of the pains of eating and speaking, but still, he gets EXP bonuses when he plays up the extent of the difficulty.

Now here's the thing I'm wondering.

SRD says "A Creature with a Charisma score of at least 1 is able to tell the difference between itself and other creatures"

This isn't just about poor social skills and unattractive features.
He's been *SCARRED*

I'm thinking that being caught 1 on 1 with a stranger, or a large creature is overwhelming to the degree that can induce panic attacks, or direct passing out.
He is easily intimidated, easily cajoled, coerced, and bullied.
Wetting himself would not be out of the question.

As a Halfling, (in this campaign, Halflings are extremely familial. Think Italian.) he has the benefit of a family base, for support, and as a Druid, he has the lodge (which serves as a Monastary, a School, and the prime producer of Produce and Medicine for the upper half of the city), and his animal companion.

He asked if he could roll for his animal companion. He rolled a 20.
I gave him a Blink dog.

Yes, this is a stupid move. He has an intelligent (capable of detailed verbal communication), strong, ally. That can see and walk through walls. And Dimensional Door. At Will.

But the image of the character, a short, disfigured, extraordinarily timid halfling, being, near inseparably circled by a large, powerful, ethereal Dog, at least as tall as he, is just way too awesome.


So here's what I'm asking.

I think that, given the companionship of his Dog, he's capable of adventuring, and standing up to more scenarios than he would have formally - because now he's not alone.
But that won't always be the case.

I've been more lenient, at the moment, than I think I should have been.
But I'm also far more in favour of progressing the plot and having a fun game than penalizing a character for a low roll. (As I've said, I'm happy to give him EXP bonuses for playing it up... I've also given him a theraputic medicine, which, through continued use, will slowly bring his CHA up, though it can't rise above 5, with that medicine alone...)

Do you think it's fair for me to give him Panic-Attack like situations when faced with powerful creatures, or overwhelming situations of a lot of activity (bar-fight, crowded market, public appearance before aristocracy, etc.)?

Is there a way I can use the skill system to cause his character to be bullied and coerced? It feels appropriate to me, but I'm wondering what you all think.

Naturally, I'll talk with the player, as well... I'm just wondering what sort of EEEEEEEEVIL shenanigans I can justifiably pull on his chump ass.
See through walls and Call Lightning my Orcs, will you, punk? :redcloak:

hamishspence
2008-09-14, 05:09 PM
how are we getting that low? Normal rules say 3 at lowest: a Flaw from Unearthed Arcana?

That said, Zogonia had a human with Cha 1 in one strip: almost indistinguishable from some form of undead

Zeful
2008-09-14, 05:12 PM
First and foremost, Charisma is not based on apperance. It is how sociable/powerful of a will you have. This character can be cowed into submission by street signs. Your better off telling the player to play as the blink dog who has a halfling companion.

snoopy13a
2008-09-14, 05:13 PM
How did you manage to have a halfling with a charisma of 1?

Even if you're rolling for stats, the lowest a halfling could get is 3. Did he start off with a 3 and then through adventuring take a charisma penalty?

Singhilarity
2008-09-14, 05:16 PM
As I've said, first time DMing.

Ok, so it's 3?
Still low enough to go far as I've mentioned, I would think...

hamishspence
2008-09-14, 05:17 PM
Charisma low makes for vulnerability to Bluff, Diplomacy, etc, but when it comes to forcing a person to submit magically rather than naturally, its Wisdom that comes into play.

snoopy13a
2008-09-14, 05:17 PM
First and foremost, Charisma is not based on apperance. It is how sociable/powerful of a will you have. This character can be cowed into submission by street signs. Your better off telling the player to play as the blink dog who has a halfling companion.

Physical apperance does contribute to Charisma. Probably in the sense that people who are better looking tend to be more persuasive on average:

"Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score. "

fractic
2008-09-14, 05:17 PM
PC's aren't suppposed to have scores below 3, but you're past that point I guess. A charisma of 1 would mean that beside the fact that he's ugly, he has absolutely no personality. He wouldn't be able to have a conversation. He'd be incabable of forming an opinion. He would probably do everything he is told because he lacks the force of personality to resist. Basically in every social situation he'd be as inept as someone with a muscle dissease at a weight-lifting competition. The PHB puts a charisma of 1 at the level of zombies and shriekers (that's a mushroom!). Such a character is basically unplayable.




Do you think it's fair for me to give him Panic-Attack like situations when faced with powerful creatures

No I don't think this is fair. He can fight.


or overwhelming situations of a lot of activity
depends


bar-fight
He should be able to handle fighting.


crowded market

Maybe not a panic attack, but he'd be completely confused by all the marketfolk praising their goods.


public appearance before aristocracy

He'd break down and curl up into a fetal position and start crying, before even climbing up the stage.

Vexxation
2008-09-14, 05:18 PM
This character can be cowed into submission by street signs.

This character should be utterly incapable of disobeying signs, such as "Buy Now!" and "Drink Gragnok Thunderspine's Homebrewed Lager."

nagora
2008-09-14, 05:19 PM
If you're equating charisma to beauty then we're talking elephant man here, not just scarred.

From a roleplay point of view I think this would be much better run as a special characteristic. So the PC still has their normal Cha (low from shyness but not 1!) but repulse others in daylight. They may opt to join a religion or other group where wearing a facemask/veil is normal and in that context be able to relate to people reasonably normally but---"DON'T touch the mask!"

Tengu_temp
2008-09-14, 05:21 PM
I don't think if a character with Charisma 1 would be afraid of social interactions, or easy to manipulate - Sense Motive bases on Wisdom, after all. However, all the social interactions he start should by default end in failure - nobody trusts him, he cannot persuade anyone to do even the simplest things for him, he's hard to believe when he lies, he's hard to believe when he tells the truth, his personality is so bland or repulsive people try to avoid him, he probably looks ugly - but not in a way that scares people, just makes them sick. In other words, a creature capable of existing along perfectly, but completely asocial.

Once again, I don't think if the panic attacks are a good idea.

hamishspence
2008-09-14, 05:22 PM
Combining disfiguring, shyness, and ease of manipulation might make for a feasible Cha 1: finds it very hard to do anything social, plus other people react badly to them, plus they can be pushed around very easily. Despite this, skill ranks may mean they aren't useless.

fractic
2008-09-14, 05:25 PM
Combining disfiguring, shyness, and ease of manipulation might make for a feasible Cha 1: finds it very hard to do anything social, plus other people react badly to them, plus they can be pushed around very easily. Despite this, skill ranks may mean they aren't useless.

I can imagine a character with an cha of 6 learn how to be diplomatic, but with a cha of 1 there is no way you could learn that. Skill ranks represent training of some kind. How would a character with cha 1 go about such training?

Singhilarity
2008-09-14, 05:26 PM
Frantic; re-read the post.

1 on 1, he has a chance to panic attack, to black out, to wet himself, etc.
I'm thinking a dice roll here...

Hell, I'd pull that kind of thing on a low level adventurer meeting a Tarrasque, but this feels like it's gone a level deeper.

Charisma as the force of personality, which I agree with, means that when it's his force of personality against something elses, he's gonna have a hard time.

Be that a Vendor (haggling is out of the question), a Town Guard (*mumble without eye contact* yessirrightsiryourrightsirImsorrysosorry), a Thug (surrender as first impulse?) or a big freaking Dire Bear.

As I've said, I've allowed the Druidic training to help him retain a sense of calm. And he's certainly not lacking in intelligence or wisdom... it's not that planning and pragmatism are beyond his grasp... but the actual IMPLEMENTATION seems to be the hang up, if I'm reading the rules correctly (which, as my allowing the score of 1 demonstrates, I'm not too sure about)

Tengu_temp
2008-09-14, 05:28 PM
I can imagine a character with an cha of 6 learn how to be diplomatic, but with a cha of 1 there is no way you could learn that. Skill ranks represent training of some kind. How would a character with cha 1 go about such training?

http://pixhost.eu/avaxhome/avaxhome/2007-07-05/Public_Relations_For_Dummies.jpg

hamishspence
2008-09-14, 05:30 PM
Simple: they lost Charisma at some point, bringing them down to Cha 1. Or, Unearthed Arcana Flaw: Pathetic: Reduce one of your attributes by 2.

Self-training: trying, and failing, often, and occasionally succeeding means learning what you are doing wrong. Learning how to phrase things, to make up for terrible body language, looks, personality, etc.

Starsinger
2008-09-14, 05:32 PM
How did you manage to have a halfling with a charisma of 1?

Even if you're rolling for stats, the lowest a halfling could get is 3. Did he start off with a 3 and then through adventuring take a charisma penalty?

It's 3rd edition, given that roughly 1/2 of all racial options have a charisma penalty, I'm gonna say some halfling variant or another had a charisma penalty.

Singhilarity
2008-09-14, 05:33 PM
I don't think if a character with Charisma 1 would be afraid of social interactions, or easy to manipulate - Sense Motive bases on Wisdom, after all. However, all the social interactions he start should by default end in failure - nobody trusts him, he cannot persuade anyone to do even the simplest things for him, he's hard to believe when he lies, he's hard to believe when he tells the truth, his personality is so bland or repulsive people try to avoid him, he probably looks ugly - but not in a way that scares people, just makes them sick. In other words, a creature capable of existing along perfectly, but completely asocial.

Once again, I don't think if the panic attacks are a good idea.

Sense motive might be based on Wisdom, but telling someone off, whether you know their wrong/evil or not is still a challenge.

Do you see people litter, or act racist or prejudiced, ever, in the street?
And do you tell them it's wrong?

You might be able to see it, but actually standing up to it, standing up for yourself, is another thing entirely.

fractic
2008-09-14, 05:35 PM
Frantic
:furious:



1 on 1, he has a chance to panic attack, to black out, to wet himself, etc.
I'm thinking a dice roll here...

I think that's allright but I don't see why it would happen when he gets involved in a fight.



Hell, I'd pull that kind of thing on a low level adventurer meeting a Tarrasque, but this feels like it's gone a level deeper.

Judging your opponents strength and such are more a wisdom thing. Fear attacks usually go after will saves afterall.



As I've said, I've allowed the Druidic training to help him retain a sense of calm. And he's certainly not lacking in intelligence or wisdom... it's not that planning and pragmatism are beyond his grasp... but the actual IMPLEMENTATION seems to be the hang up, if I'm reading the rules correctly (which, as my allowing the score of 1 demonstrates, I'm not too sure about)

His high wisdom and intelligence mean that he can reason well, has keen senses and a grasp of how the world works. While you could argue that with those abilities he could grasp how to negotiate, that's not how D&D does it. Besides what good is such knowledge if you can't put it into practise?

hamishspence
2008-09-14, 05:37 PM
Not Tallfellow, lightfoot, deep halfling, strongheart, ghostwise, or even the malevolent Jerren, have Cha penalties. It would have to be pretty obscure.

Flaw, or in-game penalty caused by a monster draining it, sounds more likely.

fractic
2008-09-14, 05:41 PM
PR for dummies

I'm pretty sure that book gives excercises that involve talking to other people.

Chronicled
2008-09-14, 05:42 PM
I don't think if a character with Charisma 1 would be afraid of social interactions, or easy to manipulate - Sense Motive bases on Wisdom, after all. However, all the social interactions he start should by default end in failure - nobody trusts him, he cannot persuade anyone to do even the simplest things for him, he's hard to believe when he lies, he's hard to believe when he tells the truth, his personality is so bland or repulsive people try to avoid him, he probably looks ugly - but not in a way that scares people, just makes them sick. In other words, a creature capable of existing along perfectly, but completely asocial.

Once again, I don't think if the panic attacks are a good idea.

Actually, I'd be surprised if anyone even listed to him long enough to decide whether to believe him or not. Every time he tries to say something, he'd probably get cut off or shot down. Imagine the absolute worst (because that's what we're dealing with here) combination of stuttering, pausing in the middle of saying things, difficulty finding the right words for the situation, shyness, and so on. Finding someone who doesn't get exasperated at this and just tune the halfling out would be very tough. I'd venture that this character might almost never talk. That blink dog might be his only real friend in the world, and even it might not listen to him very well.

Singhilarity
2008-09-14, 05:42 PM
Augh.
Freaking...

Ok, so I'm a first time DM.
I didn't fully grok the rules, and instead of it being three, we used what he rolled - 1. Is that so tragic? So incomprehensible, that, in fact, more posts must debate the actuality of how it occurred, searching through indexes and rule books and possible causes, than actually answering the question?

Caramaba... :annoyed:

Chronicled
2008-09-14, 05:45 PM
Augh.
Freaking...

Ok, so I'm a first time DM.
I didn't fully grok the rules, and instead of it being three, we used what he rolled - 1. Is that so tragic? So incomprehensible, that, in fact, more posts must debate the actuality of how it occurred, searching through indexes and rule books and possible causes, than actually answering the question?

Caramaba... :annoyed:

Don't worry about it, the rules are a guideline. Use this as an opportunity to let your player explore the problems of a Cha 1 character, and don't let them ignore it. Some of the most mundane things in life will be a problem for this guy.

I'd say the panic attacks would be an option when extremely low Wisdom was the situation, though.

fractic
2008-09-14, 05:46 PM
Augh.
I didn't fully grok the rules, and instead of it being three, we used what he rolled - 1. Is that so tragic?

Page 11 on the PHB states that if a racial modifier modifies a score below 3 you should use 3 instead. This really should extend to flaws.

Someone with an ability score of 10 is average in that respect. If you go down from 10 it's a steady but rather linear decline. But there is a big drop when going from 3 to 2. A score of 1 means "We had to give it something because with a 0 it'd be in a coma" a score of 2 means "It's something but well below the capabilities of the worst humans".

Keld Denar
2008-09-14, 05:47 PM
Besides the obvious social impications, a stat that low poses strong combat risks. More than a couple foes in the MM and various other monster sources have attacks that deal cha damage. There are also a couple spells (Touch of Idiocity for example) that deal cha damage as well. Once your cha hits 0, you go comatose, which is gererally perceived as a bad thing. Plus, if its an undead that reduces your cha to 0, there is a good chance you'll become one of them, which makes for a bad bad situation for the rest of your party.

That said, this character could still become a master of social situations. The Exemplar PrC allows a PC to make diplomacy checks with a skill other than diplomacy. Thus, the character could max out his Sense Motive, and strike awe in others with his extraordinary perception, or something similarly. Sadly Exemplar doesn't splash well with druid, but that's not my problem.

Singhilarity
2008-09-14, 05:47 PM
That blink dog might be his only real friend in the world, and even it might not listen to him very well.

Except that I'd rather him be able to be able to party in the campaign.
So I'm letting him make a friend with the other player.

hamishspence
2008-09-14, 05:48 PM
Triple 1, -1 still results in a 2, not a one. Were you using 2 dice?

I'd say, remember the Cha penalty compared to normal charisma, is no bigger than normal charisma compared to really high starting charisma (+2 race, 18).

So, I'd allow it, but try and roleplay it. Pick whatever you are most comfortable with, and remember its both other people's reactions to you, and your social abilities being low.

Singhilarity
2008-09-14, 05:51 PM
Don't worry about it, the rules are a guideline. Use this as an opportunity to let your player explore the problems of a Cha 1 character, and don't let them ignore it. Some of the most mundane things in life will be a problem for this guy.

I'd say the panic attacks would be an option when extremely low Wisdom was the situation, though.

I hear what you're saying, but as I posted above, Wisdom might be recognizing that it's an issue, Charisma might be the actual "Stepping Up"

Charisma is force of personality, right? Self-Confidence? Courage?

Perhaps that's seen as a bit of a stretch, but, as I said in the above post, lots of people watch messed up events happen all the time around them.
Very few of them actually step up and mention it.
It takes Charisma to do that. Cajones.

I think it's entirely possible that something could terrify this poor traumatized Halfling to the degree that he panics...

Fri
2008-09-14, 05:53 PM
As I read the description, I have the image of Mr. Tiny from Darren Shan series.

In that book, Mr Tiny is a... dwarf zombie? Not stout-hammer wielding-ale munching-bearded kind of dwarf, mind you. But, you know, dwarf in RL? extremely short and kinda deformed person?

He's hunched, extremely deformed, full of scars and stitches, and very shy. He never talks, always wearing a covering hood, and as you can imagine, can't deal with any social event at all. Needless to say, he's very very ugly. Even the main character wasn't so sure that this thing is sentient or intelligent at all at the first few book. But later he found out that this thing is actually intelligent.

I guess that's how your 1-charisma halfling would be. Always covered in a hood and robe like a monk, never talks, always looking at the ground, extremely shy, eventhough he's actually intelligent. He can't deal with any social event at all, like talking to people. If he want to buy something, he'll give an amount of money, point at thing that he want to buy, without looking at the seller at all.

He will only talk to people that he really trust. And his suits his background, as he will only talk to his family/druid circle.

If this is a novel or something, there will be some character development, as he'll learn to trust his party member.

Maybe his druid circle sent him for some reason to help the party member. He won't talk at first, just helping them in fight or druid-related job. But slowly, he'll start to trust the party and see them as friend. Then he'll start to talk to them and offer his knowledge and wisdom.

But I guess it's too much for RPG, so maybe you could rule that he already had a background with the party member/one of the party member and will talk, but only with the party.

He won't and can't talk to someone outside the party.

Singhilarity
2008-09-14, 06:04 PM
Page 11 on the PHB states that if a racial modifier modifies a score below 3 you should use 3 instead. This really should extend to flaws.

Someone with an ability score of 10 is average in that respect. If you go down from 10 it's a steady but rather linear decline. But there is a big drop when going from 3 to 2. A score of 1 means "We had to give it something because with a 0 it'd be in a coma" a score of 2 means "It's something but well below the capabilities of the worst humans".

I don't mean to be a wretch, but... and I quote;

"If these changes put your score above 18, or below 3, that's okay, except in the case of Intelligence, which does not go below 3 for Characters"

Singhilarity
2008-09-14, 06:08 PM
So here's what i"m wondering.

Most of what's been mentioned is up to the player to Roleplay. I can't enforce that, I can only reward it.

But having a Charisma that low (heck, anything below 5) is a pretty drastic flaw. I feel it should be able to be penalized. If only to put him in a situation where he *has* to roleplay... but it seems severe enough that there should be more penalty to it than suggested Roleplay techniques...

How do I go about enforcing those, without acting like a ****?

fractic
2008-09-14, 06:15 PM
I don't mean to be a wretch, but... and I quote;

"If these changes put your score above 18, or below 3, that's okay, except in the case of Intelligence, which does not go below 3 for Characters"

Hmm. You're right about that. Still I do believe it should extend to all other ability scores. Scores of 1 are so abyssal it makes no sense that the character is an adventurer at all.

Strength 1: That's as strong as a toad is. A small or medium humanoid wouldn't be able to stand up because it's too heavy.
Dexterity 1: As nimble as a gelatinous cube. Oozes can't trip or they'd have died from falling over all the time.
Constitution 1: The common cold would kill you
Intelligence 1: That's about as smart as rat.
Wisdom 1: Oooh, what's that glowy stuff. Ouch! It's hot!
Charisma 1: As being discussed.

Baron Corm
2008-09-14, 06:16 PM
But having a Charisma that low (heck, anything below 5) is a pretty drastic flaw. I feel it should be able to be penalized. If only to put him in a situation where he *has* to roleplay... but it seems severe enough that there should be more penalty to it than suggested Roleplay techniques...

The guy rolled a 1 for Charisma (I'm assuming you rolled 1d20 for each stat or something?), why would you want to give him a FURTHER mechanical penalty?

If the rest of his stats are all high, I'm afraid you're just going to have to live with the fact that you chose a randomized method of character generation. Anything else would be unfair. Personally, I don't do anything but point buy.

Singhilarity
2008-09-14, 06:19 PM
The guy rolled a 1 for Charisma (I'm assuming you rolled 1d20 for each stat or something?), why would you want to give him a FURTHER mechanical penalty?

If the rest of his stats are all high, I'm afraid you're just going to have to live with the fact that you chose a randomized method of character generation. Anything else would be unfair. Personally, I don't do anything but point buy.

He rolled, then assigned.

We do two sets of d20 rolls
or two sets of 4d6 and choose the highest three
Then they get to choose which set up they're the happiest with, and assign numbers as they will.

TheLogman
2008-09-14, 06:29 PM
Well, the primary part of enforcement would be sitting down with the player very casually, and explaining what 1 Cha means. In this case, it means that this dude is an island when come to social situations. 0 means that the person has no interaction with the outside world. In a way, that's even better than 1, since 1 means you can understand very very little about other people, but enough to recognize them as existing.

Once you've explained what 1 Cha means, calmly tell him that since this guy is a very special case, he isn't normal. And I don't mean like a Barbarian isn't normal, I mean like he is waaaaaay out there. Let's take the example of something else with 1 Charisma. Shrieker, a mushroom. The mushroom understands two things when we are talking social situations.

1. Violet Fungus: Be near
2. Everything else: Scream

This guy is going to follow and aid his allies in any way he can, but there are gonna be problems.

Communication is one of them. I would be surprised if the guy would even be able to express ideas. As a result, teamwork with the guy is gonna be hard. Really really really hard. The expression of anything more complex than kill or help is gonna be hard, and not just by him. Communication is a two-way street, and his street is parked up, swarming with little kids, and under construction. When someone talks to him, his childhood scarring is gonna cause him to block out the majority of what people say. And most people are gonna ignore him and block out him.

You know the saying that "no man is an island"? This dude is.

I would tell the player that he can keep his nice bonuses and his roleplaying, but he has gotta work at it. This character is gonna be a very very lone wolf. Expect him to act almost apart from the party. In fact, he is gonna have a hard time getting gear. He has two choices in the matter: His teammates take his share, get whatever they figure he needs (Player can tell them OOC), and they can leave it by his stuff at night. The other option is to break into stores at night and leave the money for any broken windows plus whatever he takes, plus a tip.

This is gonna be a challenging character, but a great one if done with enough effort.

EDIT: His high Int and Wis are gonna make him very very good at strategy. He is not, however, gonna be able to communicate whatever with his teammates. His druid abilities and spells are gonna make him good at sneaking and control anyway. Perhaps don't allow the player to speak to the others during the heat of combat, he can do his own thing. It'll make for more surprises and more RP at the same time, since he can't talk with the team, but if he waits a little, he can figure out what other people are gonna do, and work his best to help them.

Swok
2008-09-14, 06:51 PM
On the topic of "additional penalties for his cha being 1"

Any charisma damage. At all. He instantly falls unconscious.

There's your penalty.

FMArthur
2008-09-14, 08:40 PM
It's very difficult to envision characters with one or two ridiculously poor mental stats with the other(s) still being normal or even high. How do you roleplay an Intelligence 20 Wisdom 1 character? Charisma's own existing vaguery is only increased by such contrasts. Are crippling mental stats contradictory to having other normal mental stats? I don't think these things are ever properly explained in D&D.

SilverClawShift
2008-09-14, 08:45 PM
Ever seen Rain Man?

Dustin Hoffman = Int 18, Cha 3. And probably Wis 5 or something. Extreme intelligence with no real personality or judgement to process it through.


*edit*

In addition, Leeloo from The 5th Element is probably an example of a character with high INT and CHA, but rock-bottom wisdom.
"Leeloo Dallas MULTIPASS!"

Green Bean
2008-09-14, 08:54 PM
Depending on how serious your campaign is, instead of giving him some sort of mental disorder, just turn him into a Butt Monkey. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButtMonkey) The character's the butt of every joke, the guy everyone immediately hates. The guy walks into a bar, and everyone inside is one hair-trigger away from trying to beat the tar out of him. The local innkeeper makes him sleep outside in the briar patch, and the party has to disguise the body before the local priest even thinks about Raising him.

KillianHawkeye
2008-09-14, 09:15 PM
Just for reference:


Charisma
Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.

So a guy with 1 Charisma can understand the difference on a basic level between itself and anything else.

He probably puts things into categories and reacts to them based on what category they're in. For example, food = EAT (perhaps not understanding that it's on somebody else's plate, food is food), or small animal = KILL AND EAT (perhaps not knowing the difference between a wild animal or someone's beloved pet), or strong ugly dude = AVOID, etc. What the categories are and how he reacts to them would depend on the character's (limited) personality, class, and past experiences, although having a high Intelligence and Wisdom would mean that he has more categories and can better evaluate what category something goes in (so he could tell the difference between a wild dog and a domesticated one).

That'd be my take on it anyway. Have the player think about ways he categorizes things and write down the categories and reactions on a sheet of paper. Then as he learns important life lessons (such as Fluffy != FOOD) he can write it down on his sheet. Eventually he may gain enough life experience to approximate a normal person about half the time.

EDIT: If you remember the part in Lord of the Rings where Gollum's personality splits into Smeagol/Gollum you have a pretty good example of a low Charisma personality (the Smeagol side), although it's not as low as what we're talking about here.

TiaC
2008-09-14, 10:08 PM
as charisma defines ability to differentiate between self and others, perhaps autism would be appropriate. The inability to accept the concept of other people fits well I would think.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-09-14, 10:22 PM
An exceptionally low Charisma score represents a limited ability to relate to others and even your environment. A Gelatinous Cube has a Cha 1, and it can only perceive something as being one of "Me," "Food," or "Not Food."

Collin152
2008-09-14, 11:20 PM
An exceptionally low Charisma score represents a limited ability to relate to others and even your environment. A Gelatinous Cube has a Cha 1, and it can only perceive something as being one of "Me," "Food," or "Not Food."

You mean "Me" "Food" and "Maybe Food".

Yahzi
2008-09-15, 12:06 AM
This character can be cowed into submission by street signs.
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Funniest line I've read in days!

Fri
2008-09-15, 03:34 AM
as my 'roleplay' post previously, if I'm the DM, I won't allow him to deal with outside world beside the Party AT ALL.

That penalty is harsh enough? If he meet someone else outside the party he'll be stunned or what do you like.

Of course with battle as exception.

Or, if you want to add battle into it. He can't look directly at the enemy. He can't go into melee without stunning himself.

Or, if you want something harsher. He can't even cast a direct ranged spell to enemy.

There. It's all in my 'roleplay' post previously, but bared to the bone.

BobVosh
2008-09-15, 04:09 AM
If you want you can do RAI to be a combination of all the problems as very strong rather than a few of them as pointless to even try to play this character.

Such as he is very hideous, and scarred in such a way he is...unpleasant...to look at. Then he doesn't have a strong personality, so he is impressionable and follows whoever he is around. Could be like a mimic, and tries to copy those around him. When alone he acts as a mixmatch of those he was recently near.

My favorite is because of how horribly scarred mentally his blink dog is different. It doesn't actually exist. His high int + wis and natural weakness of self manifested as a strong need to survive. Combining with his natural talent of magic he managed to make a creature which he can train. (I say natural simply because he probably wasn't trained by druids...I don't know how you did that in the backstory.) As he grew stronger he could eventually warp his own body into other things he has found safe in his world, animals, eventually moving up to plants and elementals.

Also I think anyone with low mental stat like that is insane in one way or another, if that wasn't obvious.

I also always liked instead of "comatose" at 0 Cha, the party rises up and smites you down. :D

KillianHawkeye
2008-09-15, 09:49 AM
I also always liked instead of "comatose" at 0 Cha, the party rises up and smites you down. :D

Uh... WHY would they do that???

Saph
2008-09-15, 10:17 AM
Wow, I've never seen someone with a Cha that low. Imagine the most repulsive person you know, the person everyone in your community loathes (not just some of them, everyone). The least popular, most outcast, most socially inept, least personable guy in town. The sort of person you either cross the street to avoid, or don't even notice is there in the first place.

This guy is less likeable than that.

Assuming 3-18 as human range, this guy is actually worse socially than is even possible for a normal human being. I haven't a clue how you'd roleplay that . . .

- Saph

only1doug
2008-09-15, 10:28 AM
I once played a halfling wizard with 3 Cha (rolled 3 1's and a 2, kept the 1's) he was a sociopath pyromaniac.... his solution to everything was fire...
(i gave him a backstory of having been hideously physically and mentally scarred as a child in a backlash of a nearby wizard duel, as a result he determined to master the element that caused his injuries) when we stopped play at about L10 he was halfway thought the elemental savant PRC and the entire party were either fire resistant or had improved evasion.

Low Charisma can = monofocused / obsessive etc

Eorran
2008-09-15, 10:35 AM
I'd suggest this character has a crippling mental / social disorder. Unlikeable probably isn't the right fit - this character cannot relate to anything that isn't him. Basically, he should treat everything around him as objects, and be unable to connect on any level to people. Extreme autistic-type behaviour is how I would imagine him.
With a score of 1:
He should not be able to make himself understood by anyone. He may understand them, but this character will not know how to communicate. Language is useless to him.
It almost seems impossible for him to have an animal companion, simply because he cannot understand companionship. Concepts like "friend" are utterly alien to his mind. Fighting may be OK, since he might react poorly to the "objects" menacing him. However, he might initiate combat at inappropriate times, feeling threatened by situations others recognize as normal.
River Tam from Firefly displays behaviour that might make sense this way - erratic, unpredictable, and impossible to understand what she's saying. (Though her Wis is probably also pretty low)

Essentially, any character with a score of 1 should be crippled and unable to adventure.

If you raise his Cha to 3, perhaps he can relate to animals but not humans? It'd make him an interesting character.

Narmoth
2008-09-15, 10:43 AM
How I would play a halfling with cha 1 and the other stats fairly good (he's not stupid, he's not unable to learn from mistakes) entering a bar:

halfling enters.
Ignores the beautifull elven mage-girl (experience has told him that messing with mages is bad) and hit's the barmaids behind:
"oh, there's a nice girl. <insert forum not allowable sexual inuendo> and make out with me?"
"yes, I'm a halfling, but I'm big where it counts"

walks to the bar, sees the old geezer thatæs supposed to give the quest.
Drinks the old mans beer:
"So, anything interesting going on?"

Barfight breaks loose. As he's about to get beaten to death:
"You know, I know I'm a fullgrown halfling. And you know that to. But the cityguard will think I'm a child. You want to be caught beating a kid to death?"

Now he's hated to the fullness of his 1 in charisma

Chronicled
2008-09-15, 10:52 AM
In addition, Leeloo from The 5th Element is probably an example of a character with high INT and CHA, but rock-bottom wisdom.
"Leeloo Dallas MULTIPASS!"

She doesn't lack common sense though; I'd say that's mostly an infamiliarity with society.

Dentarthur
2008-09-15, 10:56 AM
I'm going to make the Rain Man comparison, too. Make the character autistic, but with common sense. Useful and functional in an adventure, perfectly capable of teamwork and following (or ignoring) directions, but when he opens his mouth the results are useless, at best. More of a running gag than an actual impairment, until you need to roll a Cha-based check or speak one-on-one with an NPC.

Ashtar
2008-09-15, 11:10 AM
At 1 Charisma, you are in a reality distortion field of loathing... Everyone who meets you will take a dislike to you, I mean even the good paladin will have to restrain himself from purging you from the world ("I mean, it was a sancimonouis killing, it was charity, I was doing him a favor! Putting him out of his misery.").

Your personality will be undeveloped simply because you cannot interact meaningfully with other characters.

If the player really wants to play that character and role-play it, then he's in for some real epic moments, to pull off someone who has the personality of a mushroom and generates instantaneous dislike from every creature in creation.

Alternatively, it could be played as a person satisfying the ICD-10 Criteria for Dissocial Personality Disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissocial_personality_disorder#ICD-10_Criteria_for_Dissocial_Personality_Disorder). But again, having a personality would dictate a higher CHA.

A match may be Depersonalization disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization_disorder) "The symptoms include a sense of automation, going through the motions of life but not experiencing it, feeling as though one is in a movie, feeling as though one is in a dream, feeling a disconnection from one's body; out-of-body experience, a detachment from one's body, environment and difficulty relating oneself to reality."

Querzis
2008-09-15, 03:44 PM
At 1 Charisma, you are in a reality distortion field of loathing... Everyone who meets you will take a dislike to you, I mean even the good paladin will have to restrain himself from purging you from the world ("I mean, it was a sancimonouis killing, it was charity, I was doing him a favor! Putting him out of his misery.").

If the player really wants to play that character and role-play it, then he's in for some real epic moments, to pull off someone who has the personality of a mushroom and generates instantaneous dislike from every creature in creation.

Sorry but no, thats not what charisma mean at all. Hell, someone with a charisma of 1 would probably generate a great amount of pity from some people (though he would be just ignored by most). Fiction and real life are full of people with very low charisma who are likeable like Rainman, Durkon and V while some people with very high charisma are despised like Arthas, Miko and Nale (I really like him but I know many many people dont).


"Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score. "

See the bold part. Unless you only like people with great strength of personnality, I dont see how charisma being liked have anything to do with each other.

As for how I think that halfling should be played, well:


Actually, I'd be surprised if anyone even listed to him long enough to decide whether to believe him or not. Every time he tries to say something, he'd probably get cut off or shot down. Imagine the absolute worst (because that's what we're dealing with here) combination of stuttering, pausing in the middle of saying things, difficulty finding the right words for the situation, shyness, and so on. Finding someone who doesn't get exasperated at this and just tune the halfling out would be very tough. I'd venture that this character might almost never talk. That blink dog might be his only real friend in the world, and even it might not listen to him very well.

That pretty much sum it up. The halfling doesnt even have to ever say anything to the rest of the party. Sure D&D is a social game but its the players that should socialize, not the players characters. Hell I met one of my best friend in a game where he played a rogue with 5 charisma that barely ever said anything. But its not the rogue I was socializing with, that guy always had great jokes and stories to say off-roleplay.

Draz74
2008-09-15, 05:31 PM
Imagine the most repulsive person you know, the person everyone in your community loathes (not just some of them, everyone). The least popular, most outcast, most socially inept, least personable guy in town. The sort of person you either cross the street to avoid, or don't even notice is there in the first place.

This guy is less likeable than that.

No, no, no. Being that unlikeable actually requires some decent Charisma. At least it means you're provoking a strong reaction. Notice how Medusae, for example, actually have a high Charisma.

Charisma 1 is even less noticable than the least-noticeable guy you know. He's the one who goes to parties in a desperate bid for attention, then, when he finally works up the courage to go onto the kareoke stage and sing a hit (after struggling with his shyness and stage fright for several hours), he can't understand why everyone, during his "performance," started paying attention to the people at their own tables instead of the stage. He asks his "friends" (those who take pity on him), after the party, how his performance was, and they honestly can't even remember him having gotten up and sung.

Heck, the guy would actually make an amazing spy, as long as he didn't have to interact with anyone (oh, no! I got caught! That means a Bluff check! :smalleek:). And if spying didn't take guts and courage.

TheCountAlucard
2008-09-15, 05:35 PM
A golem has a Charisma score of 1. It understands the language of its creator, and understands the directives given by the creator, but even if it had an Intelligence score and the ability to speak, I doubt it'd be able to express itself properly.

CompositeSanta
2008-09-15, 06:01 PM
I think I have it pictured now. It would be some cross between Two-Face, and Bleach's Wonderweiss. In every way creepy and unsettling. Barely resorting to speech, but still intelligent in other ways.

Singhilarity
2008-09-15, 06:17 PM
I think I have it pictured now. It would be some cross between Two-Face, and Bleach's Wonderweiss. In every way creepy and unsettling. Barely resorting to speech, but still intelligent in other ways.


Heh heh heh... "It"

Dr Bwaa
2008-09-15, 06:32 PM
This is rejunkulous. A couple points:

No panic attacks. That is clearly a fear response, which is linked strongly, and exclusively, to WIS. No panic attacks.

However, someone with this awful CHA may be able to think for himself, but no one would ever know. He can never (and he will never)
Form an opinion
Gods forbid express an opinion
Talk back
Do anything but what he's told
Get anyone to do anything for him. As in, the rest of his own party should probably ignore him 99% of the time, even if he does get up the courage to ask for things.

He could not be shy, either. He could be, instead, the grouchiest, nastiest, ugliest mothereffer around. He takes the same penalties: can't get anyone to even listen to him, a constant spew of curse words rolls out of his mouth at all times, something like that. Even when talking, no one ever wants to hear him and leaves his presence as soon as possible. Good times :)

Devils_Advocate
2008-09-15, 07:02 PM
The main problem with the descriptions that the PHB gives for the ability scores is that those descriptions are BS. No, seriously. You pretty much have to treat them as misleading flavor text, because they contradict other, hard-and-fast math-y rules. What, don't believe me?

Here's a question for ya: Just what is Dexterity? "Why, that's easy", you say. "It says right in the SRD: 'Dexterity measures hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance.'" Well, yes, it does say that. But let's put that little claim to the test, shall we?

When you roll to see if you hit someone with a ranged attack, do you just add your Dex modifier? No, of course not, you add your whole Ranged Attack Bonus. Does Dexterity effect your speed? Nnnnope. Your ability to dodge stuff? That'd be your Ref Save and your Touch AC. How quickly you react to the start of combat? That depends on whether you have the Improved Initiative feat as well as your Dex. Your ability to balance is measured by your Balance mod, obviously. How well you can open locks, tie knots, and pick pockets would probably give a good indication of your hand-eye coordination...

Gosh, it looks like your character's Dexterity score doesn't really measure the stuff that purportedly does at all, does it? In fact, how good you are at doing all that stuff would seem to be more dependent on your character's level than her Dex score.

So, what is Dexterity? It's an edge, a certain degree of natural talent that makes you better at a bunch of things, but barely measures your ability to do jack. Raw Dex checks are the exception to the rule. Well, technically, an untrained skill check is an ability check, but you know what I mean: The rules calling for Dexterity checks that no character gets to add anything to is quite rare.

So, basically, the given description of Dexterity pretty much sucks at accurately describing what a Dexterity score really means.

Low Charisma means that a character is severely lacking in natural talent at social manipulation, and maybe some other things. That's it. This deficit can in theory eventually be completely overcome through training, though it probably won't be. This could be congenital, or due to literally being raised by wolves, or any number of things. A horrible ability score is basically the only way to give a D&D character a severe handicap without inventing weird Flaws, so when you do roll a 3, look at it as an opportunity to choose from a bunch of unusual, interesting possible characters that the dice don't usually support. (Or demand a reroll, if you hate the idea of playing a character with any glaring weakness(es). Personally, that strikes me as the more boring option, but if someone thinks that situationally incompetent heroes don't have any place in their over-the-top cinematic fantasy game, I'm certainly not going to hold that against them.)

Well, other than that, low Cha also means that he's extremely easy to K.O. with Cha damage, of course. And he'll suck at raw Cha checks, so he'll be especially easy to control if charmed, for example. (Luckily, a good Will save should make him hard to charm in the first place.) But that's it, so far as direct consequences of low Charisma go. You can work out some special drawbacks to balance other things you've given him, and you could e.g. relate those drawbacks to the same root cause as whatever makes it difficult for him to influence others. That's the sort of thing that helps to establish a coherent, believable character who isn't just a haphazard mishmash of traits. But there's no general call to apply extra, additional penalties to characters with especially low stats. That would sort of be adding insult to injury.

holywhippet
2008-09-15, 07:04 PM
Charisma is yet another odd stat in D&D because it's a mish-mash of several different factors. Looks, personality, eloquence and social skills are all bundled into charisma.

This is a problem because you could be strong in one or two of these, and very weak in the rest. For example, you might have been raised by wolves in the forest and were later discovered by an adventuring party. You can speak common, barely. Despite a few body scars your character is very appealing to the eye and has a magnetic personality that makes people like you. However your social skills are pretty much non-existant because you still act like a wolf pack member.

Given all this, say the character has a 14 in charisma. Now picture them trying to persuade a rich lord that your party is the best candidate for protecting his daughter on her journey. From a pure dice rolling mechanic he has a nice +2 bonus to his diplomacy rolls. From a more realistic viewpoint, he probably greeted the lord and his daughter by dropping to all fours and sniffed their crotch.

The real kicker with charisma is that bards, sorcerers, clerics and paladins use it to determine how effective their spells/powers are. That sounds a lot like willpower, but willpower is determined by wisdom. Why exactly would being a good looking person make the natural magical power in your blood more potent?

SilverClawShift
2008-09-15, 09:56 PM
The real kicker with charisma is that bards, sorcerers, clerics and paladins use it to determine how effective their spells/powers are. That sounds a lot like willpower, but willpower is determined by wisdom. Why exactly would being a good looking person make the natural magical power in your blood more potent?

Sorcerers and Bards are literally convincing the universe to see things their way. They happen to be in a universe geared to allow stuff like that to happen, but that's the gist of it. Their influence extends out into reality itself to one degree or another.
Then wizards see them doing it, ask "how?" and start writing down specific, verifiable, and repeatable methods of doing the same thing.

Clerics and paladins using charisma for turning undead and such isn't much of a stretch either, since they're basically asking nicely for a holy power to open a channel to an energy plane through them. "Are you there god? There's a... LOT of zombies around me. I could use a good pulse of holy light right now? *winning smile*"

Favored souls take that concept and run with it even further. Their charisma determines how many spells they can cast specifically. They're basically using Diplomacy to talk to a deity every morning and get loaded up as a result.

Weiser_Cain
2008-09-15, 10:07 PM
Typical jerk druid with all the presence of a tree...

Aquillion
2008-09-15, 10:17 PM
The main problem with the descriptions that the PHB gives for the ability scores is that those descriptions are BS. No, seriously. You pretty much have to treat them as misleading flavor text, because they contradict other, hard-and-fast math-y rules. What, don't believe me?

Here's a question for ya: Just what is Dexterity? "Why, that's easy", you say. "It says right in the SRD: 'Dexterity measures hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance.'" Well, yes, it does say that. But let's put that little claim to the test, shall we?

When you roll to see if you hit someone with a ranged attack, do you just add your Dex modifier? No, of course not, you add your whole Ranged Attack Bonus. Does Dexterity effect your speed? Nnnnope. Your ability to dodge stuff? That'd be your Ref Save and your Touch AC. How quickly you react to the start of combat? That depends on whether you have the Improved Initiative feat as well as your Dex. Your ability to balance is measured by your Balance mod, obviously. How well you can open locks, tie knots, and pick pockets would probably give a good indication of your hand-eye coordination...

Gosh, it looks like your character's Dexterity score doesn't really measure the stuff that purportedly does at all, does it? In fact, how good you are at doing all that stuff would seem to be more dependent on your character's level than her Dex score.

So, what is Dexterity? It's an edge, a certain degree of natural talent that makes you better at a bunch of things, but barely measures your ability to do jack. Raw Dex checks are the exception to the rule. Well, technically, an untrained skill check is an ability check, but you know what I mean: The rules calling for Dexterity checks that no character gets to add anything to is quite rare.

So, basically, the given description of Dexterity pretty much sucks at accurately describing what a Dexterity score really means.That's a bad example. All stats represent natural physical/mental ability and not training or other 'acquired' capabilities. Constitution, after all, has much less impact on your HP than your level (compare a 18-con level 1 commoner with a 10-con level 8 commoner.) There's nothing wrong with that.

The odd thing is that (without some feat or ability that says otherwise), dexterity doesn't improve your chances to hit with a sword or dagger at all. Really, now... so hand-eye coordination has no role in swordplay? A character with dex 1, str 18 (in theory, the clumsiest it is possible to be without being paralyzed by sheer incompetence) has a better chance of hitting than someone with dex 18, str 12?

I could understand strength having a significant role in accuracy with heavier weapons (you can't aim a sword if you aren't strong enough to control it). But someone with a dex of 1 shouldn't be able to hit anything. And how does strength have such a huge impact on hitting with, say, tiny lightweight daggers? I could understand strength helping you hurt someone through chainmail or natural armor, too, but why does strength help you make an unarmed touch attack? If I have a strength of 8, am I, what, too weak to control my own limbs effectively? (And if so, why isn't this reflected in my dexterity?)

EvilElitest
2008-09-15, 10:37 PM
Physical apperance does contribute to Charisma. Probably in the sense that people who are better looking tend to be more persuasive on average:

"Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score. "

But remember, Napleon was short and plumb, and he had amazing chrisma, i mean to got an entire army to join him
from
EE

GrassyGnoll
2008-09-15, 10:43 PM
But remember, Napleon was short and plumb, and he had amazing chrisma, i mean to got an entire army to join him
from
EE

Myth. Napoleon was 5'7, the average height of the century. His personal guard were all 6 feet plus, making him look short comparatively. The British were responsible for disseminating the whole "short man overcompensating" image.

The thing that bothered me about the Cha 1 and self identity was that the undead used by Karrnath have a Cha of 1 and are still fully aware of their duties and loyalty to the state. Their low Cha is based solely on their inability to relate to the living, or non-Karrn for that matter.

holywhippet
2008-09-15, 11:03 PM
Clerics and paladins using charisma for turning undead and such isn't much of a stretch either, since they're basically asking nicely for a holy power to open a channel to an energy plane through them. "Are you there god? There's a... LOT of zombies around me. I could use a good pulse of holy light right now? *winning smile*"


Yes, but paladins also get divine grace at level 2. That gives them a bonus to all 3 saving throws based on their charisma modifier. So basically if you are better looking than a fellow paladin at the same level, you are more resistant to things. That makes no sense really.

monty
2008-09-15, 11:27 PM
Yes, but paladins also get divine grace at level 2. That gives them a bonus to all 3 saving throws based on their charisma modifier. So basically if you are better looking than a fellow paladin at the same level, you are more resistant to things. That makes no sense really.

Except looks are only a part of charisma. Force of personality is just as important. Basically, you're better at resisting mind effects, dodging, and taking physical damage through sheer awesome.

"I'm so badass!" *dodges fireball*

Singhilarity
2008-09-15, 11:33 PM
Yes, but paladins also get divine grace at level 2. That gives them a bonus to all 3 saving throws based on their charisma modifier. So basically if you are better looking than a fellow paladin at the same level, you are more resistant to things. That makes no sense really.

Of course it doesn't.
That's because Charisma is not at all based on looks.

Quick and obvious example;
Comedians.

There are MANY comedians who are not all that physically attractive, but they deliver their lines charismatically, and that generates laughs.
Ditto for actors.

Charisma is the force of personality.
It is Self-Confidence, Grace, Ease.

Charisma is the ability to get excited about something without being socially inappropraite. In fact, it usually gets other people excited about it as well.

Smooth talking, Easy Going, Inspiring, Confident.
All of these are facets of Charisma.

Another example?
Hitler.
Dude is not pretty.
Combination of Intelligence and Charismatic Delivery causes TREMENDOUS rallying of power. It might have been horrendous, but it was amazing. (I'm Jewish, by the way, any whiney nay-sayers)

monty
2008-09-15, 11:43 PM
Another example?
Hitler.
Dude is not pretty.
Combination of Intelligence and Charismatic Delivery causes TREMENDOUS rallying of power. It might have been horrendous, but it was amazing. (I'm Jewish, by the way, any whiney nay-sayers)

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/exitjmouse/GodwinsLaw_CatPoster.jpg

snoopy13a
2008-09-15, 11:50 PM
But remember, Napleon was short and plumb, and he had amazing chrisma, i mean to got an entire army to join him
from
EE

Physical attractiveness contributes to charisma but it obviously isn't the entire component. On average, better looking people will have higher charisma then bad looking people. However, there are many examples of charismatic people who aren't good looking.

Think of looks contributing to charisma like height contributes to skill in basketball. On average, taller basketball players are better then shorter ones. Does this mean that some 6'5 high school kid is a better player then 5'10 Allen Iverson? Absolutely not, as many other factors outside of height contribute to skill in basketball just as many other factors outside of looks contribute to charisma. But a theorectical 6'5 version of Allen Iverson would be a better player then the actual Allen Iverson since all the other factors would be equal.

Singhilarity
2008-09-16, 01:35 AM
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/exitjmouse/GodwinsLaw_CatPoster.jpg

I did it just for you.

The_Werebear
2008-09-16, 02:00 AM
My opinion: If he ever works up the nerve to say anything in character, it will be an officially sanctioned miracle. For the rest of his life, nothing will stand out in his memory so much as the time he was able to ask his table companion for the salt without provoking an international incident.

Every other second of his life will be spent completely off everyone's radar. People will walk past him in line without a second thought. Dogs will mark him as territory. God help him if he ever lingers near someone driving wooden posts for a fence; he'll be wrapped in barbed wire in seconds. Functionally, he will not exist in most people's minds. I think he might actually have a defined idea of "self," just no capacity to illustrate that boundary to others.

Khanderas
2008-09-16, 02:26 AM
OP, asking for possible penalties for 1 charisma on a halfling already judged to be severly timid (and reading the title that would be my first idea to give him (almost crippling timid-ness).
All I can think of adding is that dogs (and by extension blink dogs) are pack creatures where the Aplha dominates the rest of the pack though force of will or force of body. In real life, if a dog owner is too timid, his/her dog will assume alpha position and become Trouble (any episode of the dog whisperer will tell you that). An intelligent dog would try (problebly succeed too) to assume Alpha position, effectivly making the Halfling the cohort :smallbiggrin:

Donno how fun that would be to RP though, so it may not be a good idea

My nonspecific opinion on what low charisma will do to a character:
Shy/unassuming, rarely asserts himself and fails when he tries to. Easily ignored by anyone at best and stronger persons who dislike him can easily turn to bullying him (and almost nobody likes him).
If he is contracted for a job, he gets paid less. Haggling when buying things would problebly not be advisable.

If he has any character flaws they will be painfully obvious (the scar for example, cha 1 person with that scar would flinch every time people look at it, calling even more attention to it AND annoy people since he just wont stop whining about it. A higher Cha person would just ignore his scar, and if the person wearing the scar is ignoring it, other peple put less attention to it as well). Verbal tics much the same, infact alot of things people do can be recieved very differently depending on who projects it and who recieves it.

RebelRogue
2008-09-16, 07:21 AM
Cha of 1 and decent to good Int and Wis would imply a deeply, deeply depressed character to me. He has no confidence at all, and he's smart enough to realize that no one will ever really notice or like him. The hardest part about playing such a character IMO, is explaining why he hasn't taken his own life yet!

Singhilarity
2008-09-16, 12:54 PM
Another example of shoddy looks, high Charisma - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5d/Eric.svg/200px-Eric.svg.png

Telonius
2008-09-16, 02:54 PM
The real kicker with charisma is that bards, sorcerers, clerics and paladins use it to determine how effective their spells/powers are. That sounds a lot like willpower, but willpower is determined by wisdom. Why exactly would being a good looking person make the natural magical power in your blood more potent?

Two issues there - the fact that Will saves are based on Wisdom, and the interaction of Charisma and good looks. I personally find it silly to have Will saves based on Wisdom, given that Charisma is supposed to be force of personality. And if I'm remembering correctly, there are a few game systems that have a separate "comeliness" ability score that specifically measured good looks. So it was possible for somebody to be absolutely gorgeous but with the personality of a cinderblock, fat and ugly but able to charm you out of your last cent, or any combination of that. Unfortunately in standard D&D that doesn't occur, except as fluff that the players and DM are free to add or not.

Fighteer
2008-09-16, 04:13 PM
I'd call it the most crippling form of autism imaginable. This character exists in his own world, which only rarely intersects anything resembling the one the other characters inhabit. Whether he actually understands things but is unable to effectively express himself or is completely oblivious to other people is anybody's guess.

If he's got a high Intelligence score, he's a prodigy who is exceptionally brilliant at a few things but otherwise crippled. There are many historical examples to draw on.

With a high Wisdom score... I don't really have the slightest clue how you'd roleplay someone with common sense and willpower who's unable to interact with other people. Maybe he just instinctively does the right thing in any given situation.

His use of skills would be rather interesting. Let's say he picks up ranks in Perform. He might be like one of those child prodigies who can play Mozart at the age of three but can't speak a coherent word. Maybe he uses Sense Motive by picking up on the body odor of people who are lying.

There's no way such a character could have a class that requires him/her to interact with people. If he's a Druid, maybe his "prodigal" talent is a strong affinity for nature that manifests itself in divine powers. Maybe his Blink Dog is less of a companion and more of a guardian bestowed by a benevolent deity. It could act as his shepherd and keep him out of some kinds of trouble. He could not possibly be a member of a Druidic lodge or have received any kind of formal training because he is incapable of communicating and probably doesn't even understand the concept of teaching or being taught. It's possible that he was abandoned in the woods as a child by parents unable to deal with his disability (or attacked by bandits or some other appropriate backstory).

The real problem is how he uses his powers. He'll be a liability to any group or environment he is placed in, since he'll be almost unable to distinguish between friend or foe, or choose the appropriate time and place to act. He might smell "evil" in the air and start calling down lightning in the middle of a busy street, or start chewing on a random stranger's clothes for no particular reason.

I wouldn't recommend attempting to play such a character as a PC. It's asking for trouble to include him in an adventuring party. At best, he'd make an interesting NPC, but he has no real use except (a) to be the butt of jokes, or (b) to be a plot object that's necessary for some objective - maybe he is the only one who knows the location of some ancient Druidic grove.

@Telonius: I don't see the problem with basing Will saves on Wisdom. There's a very good reason to keep Wisdom and Charisma separate: a high Charisma character can still have poor common sense, and could still be highly susceptible to mind-affecting abilities. Likewise, a gruff loner with terrible social skills can have a highly robust sense of self and be very hard to charm. And while Charisma can be indicative of looks, the deliberate omission of a separate "comeliness" attribute makes for better roleplaying, in my opinion, because it allows the player much greater freedom to be creative.

Devils_Advocate
2008-09-16, 05:48 PM
That's a bad example.
Um, no. It's a perfect example of what I'm talking about.


All stats represent natural physical/mental ability and not training or other 'acquired' capabilities. Constitution, after all, has much less impact on your HP than your level (compare a 18-con level 1 commoner with a 10-con level 8 commoner.)
Exactly. A level 20 Fighter with Con 10 is tougher than a level 1 Fighter with Con 18; the 20th-level one has more hit points and a higher Fort save.


There's nothing wrong with that.
There's nothing wrong with the rules working that way; it just means that a description of Constitution being/measuring a character's toughness is BS. That's my point.

With Charisma, if you assume that the book's description of that ability score is accurate, then Cha is some sort of weird weighted average of physcial attrativeness and a bunch of other things, and so being good-looking apparently makes it easier to activate wands. But if you're willing to acknowledge that the description is BS, that doesn't have to be true. Maybe the truth is that better-looking people tend to make more friends and thus become better experienced at influencing others, or that people who are good at socially influencing others tend to better know how to pretty themselves up, or both. That way Charisma can still positively correlate with looks without even partly measuring looks, which is consistent with shapechanging magic not altering Cha. Whereas if you actually take the description of Charisma as a rule, you're obligated to adjust shapeshifted character's Cha scores, because Cha is then a weighted average of things including appearance.

Seriously, you need to be willing to disregard the book's descriptions of the ability scores in order to run a normal game. So... Just go ahead and treat those descriptions as flavor text with no mechanical impact. What do the ability scores represent, then? Each one represents a degree of natural ability in several related activities. The rules already describe how this degree of natural talent impacts a character's efforts, usually by adding the relevant ability modifier to a die roll. There seriously is no need to formulate your own complicated ideas of what these stats represent and then use those ideas to decide how the stats influence gameplay. The rules already tell you how the stats influence gameplay!

If you want to tweak the rules based on your own replacement/interpretation of the BS the writers came up with, save that impulse for the alignment system, which actually needs this treatment to function, like, at all.

monty
2008-09-16, 06:24 PM
What does Charisma do? It provides a bonus or penalty on certain skills and affects some spellcasting, class features and racial abilities. Remember, the fluff is just fluff, and you can modify it to whatever you like.

Kaihaku
2008-09-17, 06:10 AM
Hopefully he can avoid taking CHA damage ever...

That would suck, Touch of Idiocy... Sorry, no save, you're now an inanimate object.

But yeah, lots of people have said it already. One of my favorite characters was a low CHA (think 6, not 3) Mystic (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) and he had a ton of personality (perhaps going against the CHA attribute desc) but people ignored him all the time. He was extremely unstriking, even when doing remarkable things he was easily overlooked. I think a 6 in any stat in playable, 3 is pushing it, but a 1 is near impossible.

only1doug
2008-09-17, 06:43 AM
Hopefully he can avoid taking CHA damage ever...

That would suck, Touch of Idiocy... Sorry, no save, you're now an inanimate object.

But yeah, lots of people have said it already. One of my favorite characters was a low CHA (think 6, not 3) Mystic (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) and he had a ton of personality (perhaps going against the CHA attribute desc) but people ignored him all the time. He was extremely unstriking, even when doing remarkable things he was easily overlooked. I think a 6 in any stat in playable, 3 is pushing it, but a 1 is near impossible.

Touch of Idiocy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchOfIdiocy.htm) can't reduce a stat below 1, it wouldn't affect his Cha in any way. (other sources of Cha damage still can of course)

Kaihaku
2008-09-17, 06:48 AM
Opps, shouldn't have tossed out the first spell that came to mind.

KillianHawkeye
2008-09-17, 07:02 AM
Um, no. It's a perfect example of what I'm talking about.


Exactly. A level 20 Fighter with Con 10 is tougher than a level 1 Fighter with Con 18; the 20th-level one has more hit points and a higher Fort save.


There's nothing wrong with the rules working that way; it just means that a description of Constitution being/measuring a character's toughness is BS. That's my point.

With Charisma, if you assume that the book's description of that ability score is accurate, then Cha is some sort of weird weighted average of physcial attrativeness and a bunch of other things, and so being good-looking apparently makes it easier to activate wands. But if you're willing to acknowledge that the description is BS, that doesn't have to be true. Maybe the truth is that better-looking people tend to make more friends and thus become better experienced at influencing others, or that people who are good at socially influencing others tend to better know how to pretty themselves up, or both. That way Charisma can still positively correlate with looks without even partly measuring looks, which is consistent with shapechanging magic not altering Cha. Whereas if you actually take the description of Charisma as a rule, you're obligated to adjust shapeshifted character's Cha scores, because Cha is then a weighted average of things including appearance.

Seriously, you need to be willing to disregard the book's descriptions of the ability scores in order to run a normal game. So... Just go ahead and treat those descriptions as flavor text with no mechanical impact. What do the ability scores represent, then? Each one represents a degree of natural ability in several related activities. The rules already describe how this degree of natural talent impacts a character's efforts, usually by adding the relevant ability modifier to a die roll. There seriously is no need to formulate your own complicated ideas of what these stats represent and then use those ideas to decide how the stats influence gameplay. The rules already tell you how the stats influence gameplay!

If you want to tweak the rules based on your own replacement/interpretation of the BS the writers came up with, save that impulse for the alignment system, which actually needs this treatment to function, like, at all.

Dude, you just need to quit taking the word "measures" so damn literally.

Telonius
2008-09-17, 12:43 PM
@Telonius: I don't see the problem with basing Will saves on Wisdom. There's a very good reason to keep Wisdom and Charisma separate: a high Charisma character can still have poor common sense, and could still be highly susceptible to mind-affecting abilities. Likewise, a gruff loner with terrible social skills can have a highly robust sense of self and be very hard to charm. And while Charisma can be indicative of looks, the deliberate omission of a separate "comeliness" attribute makes for better roleplaying, in my opinion, because it allows the player much greater freedom to be creative.

The thing is, I don't see that there's necessarily a connection between having common sense, and having willpower. I know plenty of people who have absolutely zero common sense, but will not turn away from a course of action for anything. They have a forceful personality, so attempts to dissuade them tend to fall flat unless you put it to them very, very carefully. It makes more intuitive sense to me, for that sort of situation to be modeled like this: A person has high charisma (forceful personality), but low wisdom (not much common sense), so it's harder to affect his mind (can't persuade him). Or, a person has low charisma (not very forceful personality), but high wisdom (a lot of common sense), but he can be affected (he knows it's a bad idea but goes along anyway).

Your example gruff loner would have a high charisma (better Will saves), but no ranks in Diplomacy or have the Abrasive trait (he's gruff).

That change would also require some modification of the Diplomacy skill results table for it to make sense - the DC's would have to be adjusted upwards slightly. Also a bit of remodelling for Dwarves. They're definitely gruff, but stubborn as anything and hard to affect their minds, so the charisma penalty wouldn't make sense.

Breaw
2008-09-17, 01:17 PM
Augh.
Freaking...

Ok, so I'm a first time DM.
I didn't fully grok the rules, and instead of it being three, we used what he rolled - 1. Is that so tragic? So incomprehensible, that, in fact, more posts must debate the actuality of how it occurred, searching through indexes and rule books and possible causes, than actually answering the question?

Caramaba... :annoyed:


You have to understand 2 things about this.

1) We are curious what rule (or what misinterpretation of a rule perhaps) even lead to such a character. Because playing with core only a halfling at character creation with 1 charisma is SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE. It's like you told us that you friend chose to plat a Dwarven hat. We're curious under what assumptions such a character what created.

I mean, you say he 'rolled' a 1, but how exactly did he do that? Did you use a d20 for stats?

2) Ultimately you can play low CHA a lot of ways. The nicest way is to have him play an antisocial jackass. He pretty much can't open his mouth without being rude and likely insulting someone's mother. While this option is playable, it doesn't actually capture what charisma is supposed to represent. No one pays attention to him, they order him around and he doesn't have the backbone to stand up for himself. In fact, when people tell him what to do he probably considers them his friend and very generous for speaking to him at all.

The users of this board are hesitant to suggest how to play a 1 cha sentient being because it might actually be more fun to play the Dwarven hat mentioned earlier. This is a roleplaying game, and some roles aren't all that fun to play. Really the question you want answered isn't : "How do you play a character with 1 CHA", because you won't like the answer. Don't interact with other players or NPCs, you probably wouldn't even be accepted in the party.

What you really want to know is "How can one have fun playing a low cha character." At which point we have to veer away from the theoretical discussion of what CHA represents as per RAW in 3.X DnD. Instead one can play the character as a bumbling but loveable sit-com character. Note that such characters generally say things that are quite clever, and people listen to them, it's just in a bumbling and funny manner. As I said, he could just be an ass, who is generally insulting and antisocial.

At the end of the day, if I were DMing (or playing) this campaign I would probably try to fudge over something like that. Maybe keep the crunch disadvantage of having such a low cha, but RP as a low-but-sane cha of 6 to 8.

my 2c

Fighteer
2008-09-17, 01:18 PM
The thing is, I don't see that there's necessarily a connection between having common sense, and having willpower. I know plenty of people who have absolutely zero common sense, but will not turn away from a course of action for anything. They have a forceful personality, so attempts to dissuade them tend to fall flat unless you put it to them very, very carefully. It makes more intuitive sense to me, for that sort of situation to be modeled like this: A person has high charisma (forceful personality), but low wisdom (not much common sense), so it's harder to affect his mind (can't persuade him). Or, a person has low charisma (not very forceful personality), but high wisdom (a lot of common sense), but he can be affected (he knows it's a bad idea but goes along anyway).
I think of it more like the the guy with the high charisma (forceful personality) but low wisdom (lack of common sense) is easily tricked and will cling to a nonsensical train of thought as readily as a sensible one. He may be hard to persuade or turn aside, but that can be detrimental if his course of action is a foolish one. Furthermore, he's easily susceptible to magic that affects or manipulates his senses. This type of character has a driving need to be part of a social group, and will usually be in the thick of whatever's happening, whether it's for his ultimate benefit or not.

The low Charisma, high Wisdom character may not be very good at getting his point across, but he has a core of mental toughness. Maybe he doesn't see the need to chatter endlessly. Maybe he prefers to cut straight to the point whether people go along with him or not. Maybe he's shy or otherwise socially inept. He can get along without people as easily as (or sometimes even better than) with them.

Our obvious examples here are Elan and Durkon.

A high Charisma character could exhibit similar social traits to the loner, but in that case he'd be a silent leader figure, someone that others look to for strength and acknowledgment, someone who commands with his presence alone. A low Charisma more likely means that he's simply not very good with people.


Your example gruff loner would have a high charisma (better Will saves), but no ranks in Diplomacy or have the Abrasive trait (he's gruff).
You see, I don't necessarily equate force of personality with willpower. This is where we disagree, I think. The D&D system is obviously an abstraction; if you really wanted to nitpick, I'm sure we could come up with dozens of distinct, interrelated attributes describing every possible aspect of personality and intelligence, but that's not very useful from a mechanical perspective.

I often picture the mental attributes as analogues of the physical ones. Strength == Charisma, Dexterity == Intelligence, Constitution == Wisdom. In this conceptualization, Charisma reflects your ability to get your point across to others (strength of personality); Intelligence reflects your mental agility and adaptability; and Wisdom reflects your mental fortitude and ability to resist the influence of others.

The reason Bards and Sorcerors derive their spellcasting from Charisma is because their abilities are innate and channeled through the sheer force of their personality. They don't have to understand or believe in anything per se. Divine casters use Wisdom because it's their internal convictions that strengthen their connection with their deity. A strong sense of self is an absolute necessity. Wizards use Intelligence because they have to understand the rules of the universe in order to manipulate them. In their case, it's study and preparation that determine the limits of their power.

The D&D system isn't the only possible way to represent these concepts, but it's the one we're working with here, so we need to fit the concepts into the rules. It's fine to have a difference of opinion, but as soon as you start homebrewing variations to the mental attributes, you aren't really playing D&D anymore.


The users of this board are hesitant to suggest how to play a 1 cha sentient being because it might actually be more fun to play the Dwarven hat mentioned earlier. This is a roleplaying game, and some roles aren't all that fun to play. Really the question you want answered isn't : "How do you play a character with 1 CHA", because you won't like the answer. Don't interact with other players or NPCs, you probably wouldn't even be accepted in the party.
I agree with the above. It's important to remember that an ability score below 3 is not merely disadvantageous but actually crippling. A [normal sized] character with a Strength score below 3 is so feeble as to be barely able to move. A character with a Dexterity below 3 is nearly paralyzed - even walking would be a challenge. A character with a Constitution below 3 is unbearably frail and wouldn't last long outside of a carefully conditioned environment. While it's impossible to have a PC with an Intelligence lower than 3, such creatures are subhuman and unable to use language. A character with a Wisdom below 3 has barely any awareness of his surroundings; he would be a near-vegetable unable to exercise independent volition. We've already exhaustively discussed a low Charisma.

It's no fun playing such a character because it would be so dysfunctional as to either dominate a story (the other PCs would have to devote ridiculous amounts of time to caring for it) or be completely useless and disregarded.

Telonius
2008-09-17, 01:32 PM
Oh, sure you are! You're just playing D&D with mental stat homebrew. :smallbiggrin:

With regards to your split up of the mental versus physical stats, I generally agree. So maybe this might explain my position a little better... when I think of somebody failing a Will save to be charmed/dominated/etc., I generally think of their will being overpowered by the caster's (or whatever's) spell. It's not like enduring a dose of poison, it's more like winning or losing an arm-wrestling contest. If Charisma is the stat that goes along with Strength, it makes sense to me to use it as the base stat.

I've also always found it funny that one of the three ability pairs has no saves commonly associated with them (Str/Cha), one has two (Wis/Con for Will and Fort saves), and the other has one (Dex/Int, Reflex saves on Dex). Just for symmetry's sake, they each ought to have one save targeting a stat.

Fighteer
2008-09-17, 01:45 PM
Oh, sure you are! You're just playing D&D with mental stat homebrew. :smallbiggrin:
Point taken. But then you have a very tricky balancing game to get the stats back into alignment with each other. Moving Will saves to Charisma makes it dramatically superior to Wisdom for all but Divine casters.


With regards to your split up of the mental versus physical stats, I generally agree. So maybe this might explain my position a little better... when I think of somebody failing a Will save to be charmed/dominated/etc., I generally think of their will being overpowered by the caster's (or whatever's) spell. It's not like enduring a dose of poison, it's more like winning or losing an arm-wrestling contest. If Charisma is the stat that goes along with Strength, it makes sense to me to use it as the base stat.
But by defining it that way, you bring the role of Constitution into question as well. Wouldn't you think that the fighter guy with the bulging muscles would be better able to withstand being slashed in two by a sword than the shrimpy wizard who can barely lift his spellbook? Yet if they both have a high Constitution, they are considered equally durable (hit dice and saving throw progression notwithstanding).

I picture a charm spell less like a debate or a battle of personality than a voice whispering in the back of your mind: "Trust me... I'm your friend... trust me...." The high Wisdom character, with a more developed sense of self, is quick to realize that the voice is an imposter, while the low Wisdom character is likely to go along with it unquestioningly. You're using your magic to actually modify the thoughts and personality of the target, and Wisdom affects its ability to shake off or resist such domination.

On the external side, Will saves vs. things like illusions make perfect sense, as the low Wisdom character is inclined to believe everything that's presented to him, while the high Wisdom character is more perceptive and will notice the flaws and inconsistencies that others may miss. It's the same thing with Sense Motive; your Wisdom governs your ability to get into the other character's head and figure out what they're really up to.


I've also always found it funny that one of the three ability pairs has no saves commonly associated with them (Str/Cha), one has two (Wis/Con for Will and Fort saves), and the other has one (Dex/Int, Reflex saves on Dex). Just for symmetry's sake, they each ought to have one save targeting a stat.
Well, with only three saves, you're never going to avoid an imbalance; there's no way to distribute them evenly across three complementary pairs of ability scores. The saving throw is only one benefit of the ability score; you also have to consider skill modifiers, combat bonuses, class abilities, feat requirements, and a whole gamut of other factors.

Telonius
2008-09-17, 02:22 PM
But by defining it that way, you bring the role of Constitution into question as well. Wouldn't you think that the fighter guy with the bulging muscles would be better able to withstand being slashed in two by a sword than the shrimpy wizard who can barely lift his spellbook? Yet if they both have a high Constitution, they are considered equally durable (hit dice and saving throw progression notwithstanding).

Bulging muscles alone don't make you any less susceptible to bleeding out. (Though that touches on the question of HPs as an abstraction, which I really don't want to get into now). I wouldn't expect a powerlifter to be any more or less susceptible to catching a cold than a professor. The prof could be prety wiry.

And I think I've thoroughly derailed the conversation. :smallredface: Sorry!

chiasaur11
2008-09-17, 02:59 PM
Bulging muscles alone don't make you any less susceptible to bleeding out. (Though that touches on the question of HPs as an abstraction, which I really don't want to get into now). I wouldn't expect a powerlifter to be any more or less susceptible to catching a cold than a professor. The prof could be prety wiry.

And I think I've thoroughly derailed the conversation. :smallredface: Sorry!

Eh. It happens. If the debate is interesting, that tends to make up for it.

AslanCross
2008-09-17, 05:34 PM
Late reply, but a humanoid with the charisma of 1 has the personality of a zombie or ooze. They're aware that they exist at all; that's about it. They have no ability or will to communicate or impose upon others socially, and they aren't captivating in any way.

There are monsters that are extremely hideous, yet have a lot of self-will and force of person. Aboleths, for example, are slimy, smelly tentacle monsters. Yet they are very persuasive (in more ways than one).

I iz dapimp
2008-09-17, 06:37 PM
If your giving him experience for roleplaying, MAKE him roleplay it, man, exploit it for laughs(this, of course telling you that you're completely f**d up for letting him do that)

Khanderas
2008-09-18, 02:05 AM
I look at it from another angle.
Good looks don't cause Charisma. Being good looking causes high Charisma.
If you are considered handsome/pretty you will likly recieve positive attention in your growing up years, interacting more with your fellow sentients, learning how to talk and be to make the most of it and gain the self-confidence to do so. That is charisma.

If someone is ugly, they would get an upbringing where they get less appriciation automatically, something that would bring them less socialising and less confidence in situations between other sentients. This obviously includes things like Bluff and Diplomacy (since you are less "trained" in it) but also simple confidence in social activities. As they don't get appriciated automatically by their fellow sentients for being a nice/cool/stunning person, they may become more goal-oriented, and define themselves on a career (warrior, scholar and so on) gaining excellence there instead.

You can be good-looking without good charisma if you don't know how to handle it. Generally speaking if you don't think you are handsome/pretty, you dont apply as much thought into your appearance as you otherwise would do. Growing up with an abusive parent (or none) could still make you antisocial no matter how you look (or you can be convinced everyone is only after your good looks, lecherious creeps).

I do agree however, charisma is too much baked into the same stat. Good-looking, can take people, can manipulate people, friendly, lovable, confident and much more.

Aquillion
2008-09-18, 04:04 PM
I do agree however, charisma is too much baked into the same stat. Good-looking, can take people, can manipulate people, friendly, lovable, confident and much more.Honestly, what is there that requires that charisma represent looks? I don't see much of it in terms of mechanics.

A good-looking, low-charisma person is very easy to represent. They might be excessively vain or self-centered, they might have some other horrible personality, or they might be a complete airhead who nobody can stand to listen to.

If you look good, people might be nice to you, yes -- but they're being nice to you because they want something from you, basically; it's no different than waving around a giant bag of money (as most people know, wealth and power have a much bigger impact on real-world 'charisma' than looks.)

Your charisma stat isn't about things like that; charisma is about making people want to do what you tell them to. They don't just want to get inside your pants; they actually end up agreeing with your goals. Good looks certainly can help with this, but they're only one component, and a non-essential one.

Basically, imagine a pop-star telling you to do things, verses a charismatic general. You might do what the pop-star says because they're cute or famous, but that's you making calculations (consciously or otherwise); when the charismatic general outlines his plans, you want to believe in it because of his force of presence.

Khanderas
2008-09-19, 02:07 AM
Honestly, what is there that requires that charisma represent looks? I don't see much of it in terms of mechanics.

A good-looking, low-charisma person is very easy to represent. They might be excessively vain or self-centered, they might have some other horrible personality, or they might be a complete airhead who nobody can stand to listen to.
I don't mean charisma requires good looks, but it is implied in the general description of charisma that someone who has high charisma (often) have those attributes. This I don't necessary agree with it, afterall the quote you did from me stated that too much is implied with the Charisma stat (too much is bundled up with the Charisma stat).

Most of the point in the post that you quoted (two posts up from this one) was that looks certainly helps but it is Looks bring Charisma not that Charisma brings Looks... and that even that is not a guarantee. Not to mention one personality will work great with some people and some would just go nuts.