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Break
2008-09-14, 08:26 PM
I've been starting work on a little project to rework some of the melee classes, with the Tome of Battle classes serving as my standard of balance. I figured that starting with the duskblade would be best, as I personally see them as fairly close to that standard.

In order to avoid getting too far ahead of myself, I just want to tweak that which limits the duskblade the most - its spell list. I admittedly did not look very hard skimmed through the spell lists of Complete Arcane, Complete Mage, and the Player's Handbook to find some suitable additions, but only came up with Defenestrating Sphere and the Orb of X spells as possibly suitable spells to add (and I'll admit that those may be a long shot.)

With that said, I humbly ask the Playground for assistance in finding suitable spells to add to the duskblade spell list in order to hit this standard of balance. Spells from any official material are fine, though I'd prefer to emphasize touch spells over others so it meshes well with the class. If you'd rather suggest another fix for the duskblade, that's fine too.

Hal
2008-09-14, 08:45 PM
Someone on here actually posted an updated Duskblade spell list. If I had a link, I'd post it. It exists, though.

The larger problem they'll always have is, no matter how big their spell list is, they only get one new spell each level. Between that and the spell list that tops out at 5, they're always going to be a bit anemic for a spellcasting class.

Devigod
2008-09-14, 08:49 PM
Try out Sonic Weapon from Complete Adventurer. It's a spell (2nd level, I think) that gives you a bonus d6 of sonic damage to your weapon hits that lasts for a few minutes. Much better than those lame swift ones that last one round.

MammonAzrael
2008-09-14, 08:55 PM
This is the thread in question, I believe. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34943)

Enjoy!!!

Roland St. Jude
2008-09-14, 09:01 PM
Indeed, that thread was our attempt to increase the Duskblade spell list using the existing spell list as a guide (mostly buffs, rays, movement enhancements, and touch or weapon delivered spells), but including all then existing WotC sources. There's nothing cheesy in it and it was done to logically expand the duskblade options for variety and fun not increase its power (though it does that, I suppose). I made some judgment calls about bringing higher level spells down to 5th level for the duskblade (like the standard list does for Polar Ray) but that's about as controversial as it gets I think.

Oh, and this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77861) may be of interest, too.

Break
2008-09-14, 09:19 PM
Thanks much; those threads will certainly be useful.

Any suggestions on other duskblade improvements (such as a new spells learned progression), or does the expanded spell list seem good enough to reach the previously-mentioned standard?

Roland St. Jude
2008-09-14, 09:43 PM
Well, you could change it from "learn one new spell from any level you can cast" to "learn one new spell from each level you can cast" which would give more options, which means more variety. But it's mostly more variety of doing the same types of things in slightly different ways. I think that'd be a fun but modest power boost. I'd probably stop there in matching the ToB classes. But if you play it and it seems lagging...

You could allow their progression to advance past level 5. Maybe giving them 6th level spells at 18, 7th at 19, and 8th at 20. They still never get 9th and they don't get too many of those spells. (And, of course, you'd have to extend the duskblade list up that high with similar duskblade-ish spells.)

I haven't played ToB at such high levels to say if that matches up with the highest level ToB manuevers, but it seems reasonable to me. I'd think that little bit more power (and fast power acceleration) would be a fair benefit for sticking with duskblade for all 20 levels. (In a way not too dissimilar from the powerful level 9 manuevers in ToB, which are reward for sticking with martial classes and specific disciplines.)

Person_Man
2008-09-15, 09:23 AM
Rangers and Paladins can take the Sword of the Arcane Order feat, which allows them to memorize any Wizard spell. I've had players use it before, and it went a long way towards making strait Rangers and Paladins playable. A similar feat for Duskblades would be appropriate, but you'd have to limit it somewhat because Duskblades have faster spell progression. But there are various feats and PrC available that add spells to your spell list. Check out Races of Faerun for feats like Gold Dwarf Dweomersmith, which adds things like Flame Blade and Holy Sword. Sandshaper from Sandstorm also comes to mind. A one level dip adds a ton of different spells. You could also open up the Domain spell feats from Complete Champion - I forget exactly what it does off the top of my head, but I think its essentially 1 feat for all the spells in 1 domain.

weenie
2008-09-15, 09:39 AM
Letting them get full attack channeling at lvl 6 could help a bit. It is a bit annoying not being able to full attack and channel simultaneously until lvl 13.. Most of all because most campaigns never get past level 10, or at least most campaigns I played in.

By the way, how do spells like Chill touch work when channeled? If you channel it as a standard action in a round and then make a full attack in the next round, do you do the extra damage only on the attack when you initially channel the spell, or also on all the attacks in the second round(if your caster level is high enough)?

Hal
2008-09-15, 12:01 PM
By the way, how do spells like Chill touch work when channeled? If you channel it as a standard action in a round and then make a full attack in the next round, do you do the extra damage only on the attack when you initially channel the spell, or also on all the attacks in the second round(if your caster level is high enough)?

Spells like Chill Touch discharge as soon as the attack resolves. Sad, but that's the way it works.

Blackfang108
2008-09-15, 12:04 PM
Touch of Chaos from Exemplars of Evil for a nongood, nonlawful Duskblade, is a good addition.

Level 5 S/W. Chaotic and Evil descriptors.

Turn the individual to a pile of Gore for 1 round/2 CL.

Stiffening, from the same book, (a non-evil spell, IIRC).

MammonAzrael
2008-09-15, 12:12 PM
Personally, I don't think the Duskblade really needs to be modified all that much, it's good as is. The expanded spell list I like because it's just keeping the DB up with the new supplements (I hate how they always ignore other supplements :smallmad:).

However, if you're expecting a campaign to spend a lot of time 6-12th level, and not much beyond, then I'd consider moving the Full Attack of Arcane channeling to an earlier level.

Break
2008-09-15, 01:23 PM
Well, you could change it from "learn one new spell from any level you can cast" to "learn one new spell from each level you can cast" which would give more options, which means more variety. But it's mostly more variety of doing the same types of things in slightly different ways. I think that'd be a fun but modest power boost. I'd probably stop there in matching the ToB classes.

Changing the spells learned progression seems like a good idea, though not with this particular progression, as it results in something quite lopsided - 21 first levels spells, but still only 4 5th level spells.

I'd probably adapt the sorceror progression if needed, but hopefully the expanded spell list is good enough, for precisely the reasons MammonAzrael stated about it being like adding spells with each supplement.

Blackfang108
2008-09-15, 01:43 PM
Changing the spells learned progression seems like a good idea, though not with this particular progression, as it results in something quite lopsided - 21 first levels spells, but still only 4 5th level spells.

Not quite.

Remember, after a certain level, you can swap one spell for a new one of any level you can cast. (I think that's the wording.)

This way, they can start swapping out lower spells that aren't as useful anymore fro higher level spells.

Break
2008-09-15, 01:52 PM
Not quite.

Remember, after a certain level, you can swap one spell for a new one of any level you can cast. (I think that's the wording.)

This way, they can start swapping out lower spells that aren't as useful anymore fro higher level spells.

I was fairly sure that you couldn't swap out for higher leveled spells, merely ones of the same level or lower - I could be wrong, however, as I don't have the book available to me at the moment to verify.

arguskos
2008-09-15, 01:58 PM
Duskblades CAN swap out spells, but only for other spells of the same level (ie. they can exchange a level 1 for a different level 1).

That's... pretty fail, actually. Why would anyone care, really? I don't think it would hurt to change that to Sorcerer spell swapping, which isn't as pathetic as that.

-argus

weenie
2008-09-15, 02:09 PM
Duskblades CAN swap out spells, but only for other spells of the same level (ie. they can exchange a level 1 for a different level 1).

That's... pretty fail, actually. Why would anyone care, really? I don't think it would hurt to change that to Sorcerer spell swapping, which isn't as pathetic as that.

-argus

Actually I think sorcerers have the same restriction for swapping spells. They can't trade a level 1 spell for a level 2 spell, for example.

arguskos
2008-09-15, 02:16 PM
Really? Damn, that's right. I guess it makes sense, but it's a fairly useless mechanic then (save for the times when the game takes a twist, and half your spells do nothing then, like having lots of charms against undead armies, etc). I was so sure Sorcs had more useful swapping mechanics, but upon checking, you are correct. :smallsigh:

-argus

Grynning
2008-09-15, 02:54 PM
There are spells that are useful at low levels but become much less effective at higher levels, obviously. The swapping mechanic lets you shift your low-level spell slots to cover situational things, i.e. spells that are handy, but weren't worth taking at low-levels because you were filling that slot with something more important.

MammonAzrael
2008-09-15, 03:01 PM
Ninja'd by Grynning before I even hit the "Post Reply" :smalltongue:

Upon further reflection, something like the Beguiler/Warmage's optional "Eclectic Learning" (PHB2) might be a workable. Or maybe increase them to 4 skill points per level, to enjoy all those tasty Knowledge skills.

Dode
2008-09-15, 03:46 PM
Hmm...

Off the top of my head, I'd let them be able to replace Spell Power with the Beguiler/Warmage's Advanced Learning class feature (applying to any Wiz/Sorc touch spell, or evocation school) as an alternative, or a metamagic-like effect which lets them make an offensive spell a touch spell and able to arcane channel it.

Grynning
2008-09-15, 05:54 PM
I see no problem with just giving them an extra spell known at, say, every other level. So, level one spells stay the same, level 2 you learn one spell, level 3 you learn 2 spells, level 4 one spell again, etc. Expand their spell list per the thread linked up top there and the Duskblade is improved, but not broken.

Not too intentionally pimp one of my own threads, but a while ago I re-worked the Arcane Archer to try and make it appealing as a Duskblade PrC, you may want to take a look at it: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4221860&postcount=9

Edit: Looking back on it now, it should have 2 more levels of spell progression to be really good for a Duskblade, so add them at 4th and 10th levels, and you should gain the Arcane Channeling as a full attack somehow, maybe at 7th or 8th level of the PrC.

tyckspoon
2008-09-15, 06:09 PM
There are spells that are useful at low levels but become much less effective at higher levels, obviously. The swapping mechanic lets you shift your low-level spell slots to cover situational things, i.e. spells that are handy, but weren't worth taking at low-levels because you were filling that slot with something more important.

It works that way for Sorcerers only because they have the Sorc/Wiz spell list to work with. A Sorcerer can dump something like Sleep in favor of Grease or other good 1st level utility/situational spells. The Duskblade's much more limited spell list means he may only have the choice to drop a 1st level spell for.. another 1st level spell that does basically the same thing. He can switch from channeling 1d6/level max 5d6 fire damage to 1d6/level max 5d6 electric.. yay?

Grynning
2008-09-15, 06:14 PM
I was talking more about sorcerers, you are of course correct that Duskblades don't benefit as much from it. However, since the Duskblade is primarily focused on dealing damage, lower-level spells remain useful longer, since all they're basically doing is adding some extra dice to the melee hits.

Blackfang108
2008-09-16, 11:24 AM
Duskblades CAN swap out spells, but only for other spells of the same level (ie. they can exchange a level 1 for a different level 1).

Ahh.

My only high level Duskblade started there and is part of a superpowered magic campaign (don't ask, lots of explination required. Let's just say, Wizards ARE worse off than Sorcerors in this campaign. Spontaneous casters have their ENTIRE spell list avaliableknown. Expensive or Vile materials/Foci permitting. Which reminds me, I need to get a leather strap and soak it for Sadism.)

Maybe Houserule the swap for higher instead of same level? (except 0 levels.)

only1doug
2008-09-16, 01:44 PM
I've been playing my duskblade / wizard (Abj Ch) gish for a few sessions now


I liked the look of the duskblade but spell progression is too slow, so i created my gish. i was starting at L12 (replacing dead L13 character) and i noticed that a L11 duskblade would have 3rd level spells, so i took 5 levels of duskblade (grants 2nd level spells) 1 level of wizard and 5 levels of abjurant champion (progressing wizard spells) (wizard caster level = BAB = 11) for my 12th level i took 1 level of spellsword (giving me 4th level wizard spells and 2nd level duskblade spells).
Feats wise i mostly wasted them on reserve feats giving me sonic touch attacks, mini-fireballs and darkvision/swift action.



So far i have cast 1 duskblade spell (swift expeditious retreat) as opposed to maybe 10 wizard spells (mostly shield or weapon buffs for entire party or disguise self).