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Bago!!!
2008-09-14, 11:33 PM
I am an almost complete newbe with WoD and I really want to be in this game. I've only played Vampire once and I have played requiem once. The setting of this game is Vancover, canada

I have a Brujah character who was sired in the 1300s or 1600s. He is a knight in the modern era and sired for his tenacity and his rebellouis additude against his father and his regulation. His strength is wicked high, his stamina is the same, and his dex is slightly above poor.

Heres the problem, I took the Hunted feat, and now one of the players is my hunter. He's a werewolf redclaw. The player as a person has been playing werewolf for a LONG time. So, I need tips to counter this. Good tips! Help me!

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-14, 11:47 PM
Okay, is this new World of Darkness, or old World of Darkness? Just post the full name of the books you are using if you don't know.

Now, the classic Vampire v. Werewolf gambit is not one of direct confrontation. Also, vampires always are better at getting allies together than werewolves, so use that as your strength.

Speaking from oWoD I'd say:
1) Find a Mage or Gangrel to pinch hit for you. Mages can kill anything if they have enough time (Hermetics are nice, but Vampires seem to get along better with Euthanatoi, and they can kill anything; Sons of Ether are fine too, since they can convert anything to silver :smallbiggrin:). Gangrels are the most capable vampire for taking Werewolves on in a straight-up fight. They can do Aggravated damage as a Protean 2(?) ability, and I think they get Potence.

2) If you can't get either, round up a band of mortals. You have Presence, so use it! Recruit a band of para-military types who follow a code of honor modeled on your chivalric system. Then give them silvered swords and silver-loaded M16's. Ghoul the best one you can find too.

3) Find out about the Werewolf's mundane identity, and then work from the shadows to ruin it. The fewer resources he has, the better off you are.

4) If all else fails, max Potence and find a good silvered weapon... and then pray, 'cause you're dust, chummer.

If this is nWoD, then the same, but more vaguely, 'cause I don't know nWoD well:
- Other supernatural allies will serve you well.
- They depowered werewolves, so you might be able to do a straight-up fight better. Start at range, and close to melee only when necessary.
- Work from the shadows to destroy what you can of the werewolf's. Pollution should still work well - so dump some toxic waste on their home.

TheElfLord
2008-09-15, 12:01 AM
Well any Brujah that is 600-900 years old should be able to kill most werewolves easily. That being said, elder vampires don't unlive to be elders by directly confronting werewolves.

Oracle had some good advice (It is protean 2 and Gangrel get fortitude, not potence) and if all else fails I would add...

5) Find a super secure resting place, seal off the entrances, and go into torpor for 60-90 years. You wake up and there is no werewolf.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-15, 12:07 AM
Well any Brujah that is 600-900 years old should be able to kill most werewolves easily. That being said, elder vampires don't unlive to be elders by directly confronting werewolves.

Oracle had some good advice (It is protean 2 and Gangrel get fortitude, not potence) and if all else fails I would add...

5) Find a super secure resting place, seal off the entrances, and go into torpor for 60-90 years. You wake up and there is no werewolf.

Heh, true.

So, here are the main threats you face from oWoD Werewolves:
1) They do Aggravated Damage... all the time. You cannot soak or easily heal Agg. Damage. This is a Bad Thing.

2) Werewolves automatically heal all non-Aggravated Damage. Only Silver, Fire, and special supernatural things do Aggravated Damage to Werewolves.

3) Werewolves are Big and Tough in Crinos form - specifically, Bigger and Tougher than you, unless you picked up Fortitude somewhere and have 5 dots in Potence.

4) Werewolves can shift into Astral Space by looking into any reflecting surface. You cannot follow them into this Space, and they can shift into Real Space from any reflecting surface. This is also a Bad Thing.

Other things to look out for:
- Metis Werewolves may have the ability to create fire at will. You are afraid of fire and it does Aggravated Damage. This is a Bad Thing.
- Werewolves are immune to most mind-affecting powers vampires have (I think). But you're a Brujah, so you weren't going to use them anyhow. :smalltongue:

Bago!!!
2008-09-15, 12:07 AM
Its old world of darkness.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-15, 12:08 AM
Its old world of darkness.

Sweet, so we can help you. Well, what resources do you have? Or were you planning on facing this guy head-on?

Bago!!!
2008-09-15, 12:10 AM
Resources? Gamebooks or ingame?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-15, 12:19 AM
Resources? Gamebooks or ingame?

In game, please. This is WoD, not some splatbook-laden WotC system! :smalltongue:

Bago!!!
2008-09-15, 12:27 AM
Ingame, is still up for grabs I guess.


It hasn't offically started yet, but I know whats coming around cause the ST told me. 0.0

I was planning on confronting the guy head on (knowing that he could fling me into the wall)

Heres the group. Its a group of 5 vampires, 5 lycans, and 1 hunter (He's the inbetween man i guess).
The vampires are a Lesombra, Geovanni, Toreador, and one other I have no idea who he is.

Only that redclaw is the only werewolf I know about.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-15, 01:02 AM
Ingame, is still up for grabs I guess.


It hasn't offically started yet, but I know whats coming around cause the ST told me. 0.0

I was planning on confronting the guy head on (knowing that he could fling me into the wall)

Heres the group. Its a group of 5 vampires, 5 lycans, and 1 hunter (He's the inbetween man i guess).
The vampires are a Lesombra, Geovanni, Toreador, and one other I have no idea who he is.

Only that redclaw is the only werewolf I know about.

So... you've got a party of 11 people to face down 1 werewolf? Or, well, a pack, I guess.

If you have werewolves on your side, then you're fine. You just sit back and let any two of your lupine buddies handle things.

If you can swing it, make your haven wherever the Lupines hang out. One of 'em can watch you during the day, and during the night everyone else has your back.

Screw the other vamps - they're worthless to you, unless the Giovanni goes into the Spectral Path and can follow the Werewolves into the Astral.

Thrud
2008-09-15, 04:52 AM
Best way to take out a werewolf if you are a vamp, is at about 1000 feet of range, on the other end of a sniper rifle, armed with a silver bullet.

This equals dead vamp.

Otherwise, trust me, if the ST is playing the Garou right he could probably kill off half the party.

As has been mentioned before, they do agg damage with all of their attacks, which a vamp can only soak with Fortitude. They have probably somewhere around an 8 or 9 strength in Crinos, with claws that do at least a couple more dice added on. And they can expend an amount of Rage to take a number of actions equal to their Dex (which is also +1 in Crinos) plus the ability to run away into the Umbra where no Vamp could follow, if it becomes absolutely necessary.

Trust me. Use a gun with silver ammo. And hope he doesn't have the merit that lets him soak damage dealt by silver with his stamina. Which by the way he CAN use to soak any other form of agg damage. And that isn't even taking into account the possibility of combat related gifts, like one that gives him extra soak dice (lunas armor), or more damage with his claws (Razor Claws), to name a couple of very minor rank 1 gifts. Garou are armored killing machines. They can REALLY wipe the floor with any non Elder vamp they might come up against. 10 on 1 you will kill him, but he will do a LOT of damage first. Especially since if you don't kill him on the first action he is going to get to go probably 4 or 5 more times before most of you get to go again. I.E. make sure those of you with Celerity use it.

In battle with a Garou Fortitude, Celerity, and Protean are your friend. Potence is also nice. An elder with 3 or so dots in those disciplines will stand a chance in a toe to toe fight. Otherwise run away and shoot from a safe distance.

1of3
2008-09-15, 04:59 AM
As a vampire you have two things werewolves have not: Blood bond and ghouling. Use that.



(Hermetics are nice, but Vampires seem to get along better with Euthanatoi, and they can kill anything; Sons of Ether are fine too, since they can convert anything to silver :smallbiggrin:).

Vampires might be getting along with Euthanatoi, but Euthanatoi will not be getting along with Vampires on a general level. Vampires are aberrations, monster who quit the cycle of rebirth. There is no other Tradition to which the state of vampirism must appear that monstrous. You might be thinking of Hollow Ones.

Besides, any Mage with Matter 2 can turn anything to silver.

Thrud
2008-09-15, 05:07 AM
As a vampire you have two things werewolves have not: Blood bond and ghouling. Use that.


Ohh, very good point. Prepare some disposable meat shields ahead of time.

I mean ghouls.

Oh wait, that is what I said the first time.

:smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2008-09-15, 05:32 AM
As a matter of tactics,



2) Werewolves automatically heal all non-Aggravated Damage.
At a rate of one per round, though, so you can overpower them this way, at least theoretically.



Only Silver, Fire, and special supernatural things do Aggravated Damage to Werewolves.
In particular, thaumaturgy and protean/2 (feral claws).


they can shift into Real Space from any reflecting surface. This is also a Bad Thing.
They don't even need a mirror surface to "step out" of. They can step out of the umbra anywhere, but have more trouble doing so in technocratic places (e.g. cities).



- Metis Werewolves may have the ability to create fire at will.
So do others. It's a level-one gift, and other Garou can pick it up with a bit of experience points. The ones to really look out for are Sunbeam (a level-2 gift that does horrendous damage to vampires) and Kiss of Helios (level-5 so you probably won't see it, but it essentially turns a Garou into a fire elemental).


Werewolves are immune to most mind-affecting powers vampires have (I think).
Not particularly; they just have a slightly higher willpower than the average mortal (although some gifts, esp. Shadowlord and Silver Fang gifts, do provide immunity).

One thing that Garou have trouble penetrating is Obfuscate. Not really a Brujah's style, but effective.

Bago!!!
2008-09-15, 07:30 AM
Lots of useful hints.


The giovani is going down the spectral path, so that helpful.

Firearms is probally not an option right now. My character is going to awakening from a time where firearms weren't even available.

Obsfucate? May work out somehow. Fortitude? A must sometime.

Thats gonna require points in allies and retainers I think. Plus, if I ghoul a human, then thats not gonna help me too much because then they'll just flee in terror more than half the time right?


No, there are in total 5 werewolves. Half the group is werewolf, and that redclaw is a player, which is the only reason why I really fear.


I could possibly convince some of hte other vampires but not likely.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-15, 10:06 AM
Thats gonna require points in allies and retainers I think. Plus, if I ghoul a human, then thats not gonna help me too much because then they'll just flee in terror more than half the time right?

No, there are in total 5 werewolves. Half the group is werewolf, and that redclaw is a player, which is the only reason why I really fear.

I could possibly convince some of hte other vampires but not likely.

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. If a fellow PC is going to be trying to kill you, then you're going to have to win a popularity contest with your fellow players. It's pretty much that simple: if you have more werewolves on your side then he does, you'll probably win.

Further notes
- I think ghouls count as "awakened" in regards to Delirium; anyone able to back me up on that?

- Lasombra is going to be your best friend. Obtenebration can be used to hide you... not that you'll want to trust a Lasombra who's played right. Ditto with the Giovanni (though if you can get some Wraiths on your side...). Toreador continue to be worthless, so long as the Werewolf carries something shiny (:smallsigh:).

- Do NOT tell anyone where your Haven is. If the Werewolf finds out, you are dead.

- Getting some NPCs on your side is going to be key for passive security. Ghoul a stout retainer (who can use guns!) or two, and see if you can tap the Toreador's network for aid. Chances are that the Toreador's connections will be worthless, but if you can set up a Final Dead Man's Switch and privately inform the Redclaw about it, he may hold off killing you.

A nice Final Dead Man's Switch is a Delayed Mail package to Pentex that contains all of the Redclaw's private information and notes that he is a Werewolf. Make it so that it'll only be sent if you don't contact someone every night... that should hold the Redclaw off for awhile.

ONLY DO THIS IS YOU CAN KEEP IT QUIET. Set up the Switch with the ST quietly and then don't tell anyone about it unless the Redclaw attacks. Then tell him and work out an agreement.

comicshorse
2008-09-15, 11:14 AM
Firearms is probally not an option right now. My character is going to awakening from a time where firearms weren't even available.

One word : CROSSBOW

Obfuscate works great against werewolves. Though as a Knight you might find chopping him down from behind while invisible to be a bit...unsporting.

If there's a Loasombra in your party, don't worry the Werewolf should find his powers much more offensive than you

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-15, 11:23 AM
One word : CROSSBOW

Huh, that's an interesting idea.

I don't remember the rules, but if you can convince your ST to let you use a Bow that adds your STR to the damage, then pump Potence and invest in some silver-tipped arrows. It's not quite a silver-loading assault rifle, but it's a start.

Bago!!!
2008-09-15, 01:15 PM
I'll probally will have a couple of ghouls then.

I don't know how well the Losombra will be played but the guy whos playing giovani is going to be playing him like a puppet master.

Like I am going to trust anyone with my haven's location....

Allies... I should get as many as I can somehow.

Final Dead Man's Switch.... ugh.... Complex to pull of but I think I can manage somehow.

Oh, I just remembered the last vampire's clan! Malkavian!



I didn't create this character thinking of ranged combat, though he may expand into that later. He was going to go melee for the most part.

As a knight, I'll find alot of things in the modern era unsporting. Thats not gonna stop me from surviving.

Her powers. The Losombra is a she.

The crossbow idea is nice but not his style. If I do go for range later on, its gonna be guns.



I have a feeling I am gonna die and at the hands of the Red Talon. So I am making a back up character who may help me get some pay back on him. I am thinking Tremere with fire magic. Any tips on his creation?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-15, 01:27 PM
Oh man, Malkavian! Why didn't you say so?

If the ST lets him have Dementation, and you can keep him under control, keep that Malk with you at all times. Werewolves might be pretty tough, but nothing is going to screw 'em over quite like screwin' with their heads :smallbiggrin:

Also: if you think the Dead Man's Switch is too complicated, you're going to have trouble with classic Vampire :smalltongue:. That said, you can outsource it to the Toreador or Lasombra - whichever is playing the "smarter" character, or has more experience playing Vampire. Yeah, you'll be putting your unlife in their hands, but they'll probably choose a fellow Kindred over a vampire-hunting Werewolf :smallbiggrin:

If you must be a melee character, find out if you can use Dark Ages gear and get their BFS (Big eFfin' Sword) and get it silvered. It does ludicrous damage, and might be enough to keep the Werewolf off guard.

Invest in Ghoul, not herd, BTW. And Potence & Celerity (if you're elder enough, you can get a ton of actions with Celerity). Um, and you'll have to fight pretty chivalrously to survive a head-to-head with a Werewolf.

TheElfLord
2008-09-15, 03:42 PM
I wouldn't be that nervous about a heads up confrontation, especially if its one on one. This presumes you have the stats of a 600-900 year old Brujah. To me at least that means about 5 potence and 5 celerity among other things.

WoD is not centered around combat, but since we are talking conflict I use this time to expound my theory:

Elder Vampires can kick the **** out of Werewolves.

Dex is the most important combat stat. If you can't hit, it doesn't matter how much damage you could have done. The highest a Chrinos Werewolf can get his Dex is 6. An elder vamp can get his to 10, even a neonate can get it to 9. so an elder vamp has a better chance to hit an dodge.

Werewolves can get actions for rage points at a one to one rate. A vamp spends one blood and gets extra actions equal to his celerity on the next round. Werewolves start with between 1-5 rage and can raise it to 10 through xp. This means that a garou with 10 rage can get rid of it in two rounds with 6 actions each round (1 normal, 5 bonus). A vamp with 5 celertiy can have 6 actions a round as long as he has blood.

Lets look at damage. The maximum Str a Chrinos werewolf can have is 9. Claws do str+1 ag. So the max damage is 9+1 dice +dice equal to extra successes on attack roll. Like dex, elder vamps can raise str to 10. Give him a silvered broadsword and he's doing 10+3 dice of damage +5 automatic levels for the potence + dice equal to extra successes (and remember with a better Dex the vamp has a higher chance of having dice, and more of them) +1 die for it being silver, and the total is completely unsoakable to werewolves. It takes 8 levels a nonsoaked damage to kill a werewolf (barring them using rage to revive) This means you only have to get 3 successes with the 14 dice to kill a Chrinos werewolf in one hit. Now there are somethings like Luna's Armor that can help mitigate this, but remember with that celerity 5 there are 5 more attacks coming this round alone.

This example does use an elder vampire and the vampire does pull out all the stops. But it also uses a werewolf with maxed attributes and when vamps fight werewolves they do pull out all the stops. The purpose of this theory is to show that while a neonate may get slaughtered by a cub, the power scale shifts with age. A 900 year old vampire should be able to take any werewolf alive. Given the short life expectancy of the garou, the opponent is probably in his 20s-40s. If the stats match the age, a vamp has little to fear 1 on 1.

Bago!!!
2008-09-15, 03:54 PM
Okay, people seem to be getting my characters age confused with his power. Let me clarify. I am just starting, my character was put into Torper for many years (like centuries).

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-15, 04:00 PM
Okay, people seem to be getting my characters age confused with his power. Let me clarify. I am just starting, my character was put into Torper for many years (like centuries).

Your character age should be power. What is your vampire's Generation? The lower the Generation, the more blood you can hold and the more blood points you can spend in a round.

If your Generation higher than, what, 10?, then you'd better find out who your Sire was and how he and his Sires could get away with so many Childer.

Bago!!!
2008-09-15, 04:12 PM
Hhhhhmmm.... I never thought about that.

Well, I forget how the whole generation thing works. How many per a rank reduces the generation? I forget.


How does one use potency? Is it automatic or what? And if I spend multiple points on celerity, does that mean I get that many more attacks?

Beleriphon
2008-09-15, 04:13 PM
Elder Vampires can kick the **** out of Werewolves.

Unless you're dealing with an equally experienced werewolf. Then its back to smooshing vampire bits.

TheElfLord
2008-09-15, 04:16 PM
Okay, people seem to be getting my characters age confused with his power. Let me clarify. I am just starting, my character was put into Torper for many years (like centuries).

Well you listed your age as if it mattered. If you character has one be active a couple years, then he really isn't 600-900 years old. He's basically a few decades old. He's got all of the anacronim and none of the power of being born long ago.

In that case be prepared to die. Elders who are 300 years old and have been active all that time are freaked out by the technological changes. You thing today's senior citizens have issues with technology. Try someone 3 times their age. You character will be wondering around a world he doesn't understand. The language is different. The technology is different. Politics is different. Culture and society are different. You best bet is to hope you meet a friendly person who will help calm your fears and guide you through basic tech 101 (maybe movable type and gunpowder) then start following Oracle's advice. A Red Talon will be a lupis garou, so he won't have much of a human idenity. That will make him hard to mess with unless you start taking action against local wolves, and that will make you hunted by all the garou.

Also, you have to worry about the Sabbot. You character won't know what the Sabbot is, but if you have even a few dots in Generation you'd be a target. Any Sabbot Cainite would jump at the chance to diablarize a vamp who has no idea what's going on.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-15, 04:17 PM
Hhhhhmmm.... I never thought about that.

Well, I forget how the whole generation thing works. How many per a rank reduces the generation? I forget.


How does one use potency? Is it automatic or what? And if I spend multiple points on celerity, does that mean I get that many more attacks?

1) Potence is a Discipline that's always on. It gives you free successes on any STR check. This is excellent in combat - I once ran a Vampire, Vampire Hunter with 4 Potence who could auto-stake Vampires. Good times :smallamused:

2) Celerity gives you your Celerity Rating in extra actions for every point of blood you spend in a turn. A sufficiently low Generation vampire can spend 2 or 3 blood a turn - this is key.

3) Generation is purchased during character creation with Background Points. If you have no points in it, then your background is inappropriate. You have to put at least 3 dots in it.

EDIT:
I assumed since 1/2 the vampires in your party are "evil" that you're on friendly terms with the local Sabbat groups. They're pretty handy if you need someone to stand up for Vampire Rights. They're also really, really evil - but I'm sure your Lasombra can get you an in if need be :smalltongue:

Bago!!!
2008-09-15, 04:18 PM
Bel here has the idea.

1) Awesome!

2) Neat! So should I have more celerity or potency?

3) I haven't invested any Bonus background points yet. And how many resources would it take to have a silver greatsword?


Edit to respond to that other edit: Well that would be useful, but vancover is like a safe haven from all that Sabat vs. Camarilla (I got the name right?)

TheElfLord
2008-09-15, 04:24 PM
Unless you're dealing with an equally experienced werewolf. Then its back to smooshing vampire bits.

Werewolves die of old age around 120 I think. Most don't make it to 30. There are no werewolves of equal experience to an elder vampire, especially not one that is a fully powered 900 year old.

My calculations didn't even take generation into acount and they still showed how an elder vampire can have an advantage in almost every category.

Its really a matter of power scales. The only difference between a rank 1 werewolf and a rank 5 is what gifts they have. The difference between a newly embraced 13th gen vamp and a 1000 year old 4th gen are enormous. More blood pool, blood per turn, almost twice the potential in attributes, abilities, and disciplines. High ranking gifts don't make up for all the abilities elders get.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-15, 04:36 PM
I'd say Resource 2 or 3 if you only have your sword and your armor. 3 would also give you a decent Haven.

I think you'll need Celerity first. Unfortunately, your DEX sucks, but if you can get 8 Aggravated Wounds to stick to a werewolf before he kills you, you win.

Bago!!!
2008-09-15, 04:43 PM
Which armor should I go for? Knight armor or heavy armor?

And if I go for the greatsword, how can I convince my ST to let it have some silver to it? Its in Vancouver which is a safeground for werewolves and vampires. The werewolves don't attack the vampires, and vice versa.


No one hasn't explained how the Generation background works out. Knowing how that works would really help me.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-15, 04:45 PM
Which armor should I go for? Knight armor or heavy armor?

And if I go for the greatsword, how can I convince my ST to let it have some silver to it?

Um, say that in the distant past you were a Werewolf Hunter. You nearly wiped out this particular Red Fang Tribe and it was in your skill at "protecting" your serfs from harm that got the Brujah to Embrace you.

As for armor: what's the difference? Just take the one with higher Soak dice.

Bago!!!
2008-09-15, 04:52 PM
Heavy has protect 3 a -1 to perception and dexterity and a min of strength 2 to use.
Knight has protect 4, a -2 to dexterity and perception and a min of strength 3 to use.

That could work. If I can maintain my weapon in a game where werewolves and vampires walk the streets. Can werewolves and vampires smell silver or sense it or whatever?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-15, 04:57 PM
Heavy has protect 3 a -1 to perception and dexterity and a min of strength 2 to use.
Knight has protect 4, a -2 to dexterity and perception and a min of strength 3 to use.

That could work. If I can maintain my weapon in a game where werewolves and vampires walk the streets. Can werewolves and vampires smell silver or sense it or whatever?

Not as far as I know. It'd be really good if you could learn 2 dots of Obfuscation from someone. Otherwise, you'll have to wear a ludicrous cloak or forego the armor most of the time.

Hmm... get one of the Vampires you trust to invest in an armored SUV and you can roll around in style in full armor if combat's around. -DEX is terrible, but you can offset it by using Blood to boost up your DEX temporarily... so go with Knight Armor. If the Werewolf is sneaking up on you, no amount of Perception will help you see him coming.

As far as I know, you can't "smell" silver. He'll probably assume your sword is silvered though, if he's an experienced Werewolf player - everything is silvered if you play Werewolf :smalltongue:

Bago!!!
2008-09-15, 05:06 PM
I will probally be weaing a rediculous cloak.

How does attacking work?

And as for generation as a background, how does my generation get reduced for every point?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-15, 05:12 PM
I will probally be weaing a rediculous cloak.

How does attacking work?

And as for generation as a background, how does my generation get reduced for every point?

Um... wow. You should borrow the Vampire book (or whichever base rules the ST is using) before finishing your character.

And yeah, if your ST is remotely realistic, no amount of cloak is going to hide armor. Hell, probably not even the sword!

But generation starts at 13 and drops 1 per point of generation. You'll probably want to be at least 9th Generation (4 dots) because it lets you burn two BP a turn.

comicshorse
2008-09-15, 06:07 PM
Celerity gives you your Celerity Rating in extra actions for every point of blood you spend in a turn. A sufficiently low Generation vampire can spend 2 or 3 blood a turn - this is key.

Not quite, Celerity does give you its ratings in extra actions when you spend a blood point. But it only works once, you can't spend multiple blood points to get it multiple times


As far as I know, you can't "smell" silver
As far as I remember werewolves can't automatically sense silver but there is a pretty common gift that allows them to do it

And Elflord you're right apart form the Werewolf can spend all his Rage in one go so if he has 8 Rage he gets eight exrta actions. Granted he's completely out of Rage then but the chances are no opponent has survived this whirlwind of death

Highlander aside you're really not going to hide kinghts armour and a bastard sword. If you're sure the Werewolf is gunning for you challenfge him to a duel in private ( where you can wear your gear) and do it in fromnt of his comrades. If he doesn't accept he will probably be marked as a coward and if he refuses and attacks you later he will be marked as a coward and a liar.

Oh and consider a shield if you go for the duel option ( raises opponents difficulty to hit you by 1)

TheElfLord
2008-09-15, 08:17 PM
And Elflord you're right apart form the Werewolf can spend all his Rage in one go so if he has 8 Rage he gets eight exrta actions. Granted he's completely out of Rage then but the chances are no opponent has survived this whirlwind of death

I don't have Werewolf: The Apocalypse on me, but Dark Ages: Werewolf says a garou can only get extra actions through rage equal to Dex or Wits, whichever is lower. I don't know if it says something similar for modern nights. This would limit the garou to 5 extra actions a turn, the same as celerity 5. Regardless this is an excellent point. My theory is influenced by my gaming experiences. My group is the anti-frenzy group. No one ever raised their rage above three, and those who started with rage above three never raised it at all, so I don't really account for high rage in the theory, but all things considered I still think celerity beats rage in the long run. The question is surviving to make it a long run.

comicshorse
2008-09-15, 08:29 PM
celerity beats rage in the long run.

Agreed.
our group also never went for high rage as the ST was quite clear about the anger problems high rage gave you. As a mainly urban pack who prefered the more subtle approach beng barely restrained powder-kegs of violence just wasn't helpful.
Something the ST brought powerfully home when the Sept leader ( a deeply honourable Ahroun) nearly killed his wife in a burst of fury.
Werewolves as P.C.s start harder than vamps but the difference closes fast and is even worse in the modern day when every vamp can pack silver bullets.

Thrud
2008-09-16, 12:05 AM
Can werewolves and vampires smell silver or sense it or whatever?

I'm pretty certain that a garou can roll gnosis to sense silver, but it is pretty high. Like diff 8 or 9. I could be remembering wrong here, but I don't have my books with me at the moment.

potatocubed
2008-09-16, 03:49 AM
Just an aside: why fight the werewolf directly? As a Brujah you've got Presence as a clan discipline, and werewolves have bog all to protect themselves from mental assault. The moment Rover shows his face, hit Entrancement (or Majesty, or both), blood bond him while he's... pliable, and now you have your very own pet garou. :smallcool:

Celerity helps if this fails. :smalltongue:

Of course, werewolves have attacks that you can't block either, such as 'coming over while the sun's up and casually burning your house down' or 'sending a spirit ally to fry your brain'.

Also, buy up as much untouched wilderness as your vampire riches can afford and use it as a bargaining chip - threaten to have it salted and paved over if you meet an untimely end, or promise to have it turned into a wildlife sanctuary if you get to live. It's not much by itself, but it might buy you a little time or let you strike a deal.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-16, 03:58 AM
- I think ghouls count as "awakened" in regards to Delirium; anyone able to back me up on that?
Yes, they do. They also count as tainted in regards to Sense Wyrm.

So, come to think of it, keep your humanity high (7+ should do it) so that you don't show up on Sense Wyrm.


not that you'll want to trust a Lasombra who's played right.
Not that you'll want to trust any vampire who's played right :smallbiggrin:


Toreador continue to be worthless, so long as the Werewolf carries something shiny (:smallsigh:).
Beg to differ. Toreador have one thing they're really, really good at: Presence. Come to think of it, so do Brujah. So an alternative strategy is to grab Presence 5 (majesty) and werewolfs will kneel for you.


Delayed Mail package to Pentex that contains all of the Redclaw's private information and notes that he is a Werewolf.
Do not trust Pentex. Ever. Honestly, if it were that easy for a vamp to get rid of a garou, they would have been extinct by now.


Obfuscate works great against werewolves. Though as a Knight you might find chopping him down from behind while invisible to be a bit...unsporting.
You can't do that, though; you get one sneak attack, and then your obfuscate breaks.



Elder Vampires can kick the **** out of Werewolves.
While you are correct about methuselah, this doesn't apply to just any good-generation vamp. You forgot a few things in your equation, i.e. gifts, spirit allies, fetishes, the umbra, daytime ambushes, and the fact that garou tend to travel in packs (and are better at the mutual trust and cooperation thingy than vamps).

Iconic example is the battle of Ravnos against a pack of fully-decked-out elder Garou. Yes, he won.


2) Celerity gives you your Celerity Rating in extra actions for every point of blood you spend in a turn. A sufficiently low Generation vampire can spend 2 or 3 blood a turn - this is key.
No, it doesn't. It gives you your celerity rating in extra actions if you spend one blood point, and doesn't allow for multiple activations per turn. And that's in second edition vampire.

In Third Edition Vampire, celerity has been nerfed (as it was admittedly uber in 2nd) so that it gives you one extra action per blood point, to the limit of your celerity score. Caveat emptor.


As far as I remember werewolves can't automatically sense silver but there is a pretty common gift that allows them to do it
Correct. The gift is called Sense Silver. Level-1 ahroun IIRC.


And Elflord you're right apart form the Werewolf can spend all his Rage in one go so if he has 8 Rage he gets eight exrta actions.
Up to the limit of his dexterity, but yeah.


challenfge him to a duel in private ( where you can wear your gear) and do it in fromnt of his comrades. If he doesn't accept he will probably be marked as a coward
On the other hand, if he accepts he will be marked as a leech-lover. You do not strike deals with the Wyrm. That's the one rule of their Litany that they don't break.

Bago!!!
2008-09-16, 08:25 AM
Okay so maybe he won't be going around in knight armor... but he'll have some chain mail (Heavy) at the very least under his cloak or massive trench coat (Haven't decided the style yet. And he will have knight armor.

Course not. If its a bastard sword then yes I could hide it under my long coat but otherwise, no.

9th? I'am going for 8th or 7th if my gm allows it.


Thats right, and its second edition that we're going by I think.

Damnit. Curse that gift! Smuggling silver weapons may be tougher than I thought.

I am no afriad of the rage....

Private duels? He's a werewolf, a redtalon. Whats going to keep him from ambushing me? I am a vampire, supposedly a creature of the wurm.

Shield or extra damage..... hmmm....


So..... what are the chances that this guy is going for anti-frenzy?


Getting presence would be nice, and the toreador does have it.

In which case I am dead meat.

Bargaining with a red talon? Not sure if that is going to work so well....


Sweet! I should get a few retainers.

Is that 7 and up or above 7?

Fortunately I think only one of them will be playing a vampire right, the giovanni. And he once got an entire group of assassins blood bonded in the beginning session, I think.

I am highly certain the toreador will get have presence.

So no death switch?

One sneak attack is all it takes to end it, if done right.

0.0 Maybe I should have gone with Ravnos....

But I think the ST is going by 2nd edition.

Another problem!

Kurald Galain
2008-09-16, 08:38 AM
Course not. If its a bastard sword then yes I could hide it under my long coat but otherwise, no.
Be forewarned that another first-level gift (disable device) can shut down your armor or your sword, because they're Weaver-aligned. No, I'm not kidding. Metaphysicality is annoying that way.

7th gen is good but not enough to guarantee victory over a skilled Garou.



Private duels? He's a werewolf, a redtalon. Whats going to keep him from ambushing me? I am a vampire, supposedly a creature of the wurm.
Nothing is going to stop him, of course. Also, Red Talons aren't known for their friendliness, so I'd expect him to have substantial amounts of Rage points. Also note that garou can recover rage, even in mid-fight, if given sufficient cause to be angry.

Also, if I were to make a list of which tribes can probably not be bargained with, Red Talons would be second from the top. On average, of course, there's always exceptions depending on how the players wants his character to be.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-16, 12:14 PM
Nothing is going to stop him, of course. Also, Red Talons aren't known for their friendliness, so I'd expect him to have substantial amounts of Rage points. Also note that garou can recover rage, even in mid-fight, if given sufficient cause to be angry.

I'm telling you, get the Malkavian to use Dementation 1 to force the Werewolf to Rage... and then get the hell out of there. He'll either run out of Rage points, or end up doing something he'd really regret.

Alternatively, you can have the Malkavian sit on overwatch and prevent the Werewolf from using Rage with the same power.

Brujah just aren't a good clan to deal with werewolves. Presence might be your best route, particularly if the Werewolf specs for combat.

Bago!!!
2008-09-16, 12:55 PM
Damnit. How can you shut down a sword anyway? I could understand a gun or some sort of mechanism but a sword?

As long as 7th gen gives me a fighting chance I am all for it.


Regenerating rage points? Damn. I should get that back up character on the way!
I thought as much. Yay for blood hounds! Rip your heads off with anger to spare! :smallbiggrin:


Wait, Malkavians can do that? Damn, thats kick ass!
I would probally go for option B wiht the malkavian. Possibly.

I know that. But I like the Brujah, their one of my top favorites. Nosferatu is my second and Gangrel my third.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-16, 12:59 PM
Rule #1 of Werewolf: Werewolves are totally sweet. If there is something awesome to do, they can do it. :smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2008-09-16, 03:38 PM
Damnit. How can you shut down a sword anyway? I could understand a gun or some sort of mechanism but a sword?

Werewolves are way more spiritual than vampires. So yes, they get to do funky metaphysical things like this - it would lose its... swordiness (although I suppose us mundanes would picture it as simply bending in half or something). It's not particularly easy, but a halfway decent Theurge (shaman) would pull it off.

You know, it'd really help if you quote the parts you're responding to. Some of your sentences don't appear to make much sense on their own.



I'm telling you, get the Malkavian to use Dementation 1 to force the Werewolf to Rage... and then get the hell out of there.
I seriously doubt Dementation 1 can do that. Sure, it can reduce the difficulty, but most Garou (other than Spiral Dancers) are quite decent at self-control. Dementation 5, no problem, but 1 is pushing it.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-16, 04:48 PM
I seriously doubt Dementation 1 can do that. Sure, it can reduce the difficulty, but most Garou (other than Spiral Dancers) are quite decent at self-control. Dementation 5, no problem, but 1 is pushing it.

Well... yeah I guess. Checking my book it says "effects of this power might include one- or two- point additions of subtractions to difficulties of frenzy rolls, Virtue rolls, rolls to resist Presence powers, etc."

Dementation 4 can provoke Frenzy (Werewolves are at +2 DC to resist!).

Presence is looking very good. Dread Gaze (2) drains dice from dice pools, and 3 successes will cause the target to flee. You'll need CHA + Intimidation for that one (vs. Wits + "Courage"). Entrancement (3) is very good - a single success will give you Charm Person for a whole hour, while 2 gets you a whole day. Appearance + Empathy vs. Willpower there. Definitely looks like a good choice, and it's pretty flavorful for a former knight-in-shining-armor.

Danzaver
2008-09-17, 11:16 AM
I have a Brujah character who was sired in the 1300s or 1600s.

That's a big difference. Sorry, nitpicking. XD

mostlyharmful
2008-09-17, 01:32 PM
Werewolves die of old age around 120 I think. Most don't make it to 30. There are no werewolves of equal experience to an elder vampire, especially not one that is a fully powered 900 year old.

My calculations didn't even take generation into acount and they still showed how an elder vampire can have an advantage in almost every category.

Its really a matter of power scales. The only difference between a rank 1 werewolf and a rank 5 is what gifts they have. The difference between a newly embraced 13th gen vamp and a 1000 year old 4th gen are enormous. More blood pool, blood per turn, almost twice the potential in attributes, abilities, and disciplines. High ranking gifts don't make up for all the abilities elders get.

Nice in theory but not so much in practise. The intensity of a Garou's life will mean they'll probably cram as much xp accual into their active phase as a non-Methuselah and they'll be working in teams.... dropping out of alternate realities onto the vamps head... in the middle of the day.... while on fire... with big stomping avatars of their gods in the lead....

The Rite of Summoning is a second level rite, you can max your rolls at character creation and if you're a theurge there's basically no reason not to and all the fluff in your favour. With a little time invested to reduce the difficulties and some socail gifts a werewolf can summon a god that desperately wants to help them, they can choose what spirit is summoned. Just how tough and sly does a vamp need to be to try trading punches with the godly incarnation of the sun? With a sept full of ragin' werewolves?

Obfuscate doesn't do squat against being seen from the umbra which is where Vamp-Huntin' Garou will be stalking them from and where spirit "Go find the Vamp" minions will be. Obfuscate is mindaffecting, that's why it doesn't have any effect on cameras etc.. a Garou looking at a vamp from anouther dimension is pretty safe.

Teamwork is built into Garou culture and mindset, they are almost automatically coming after you in groups, well trained and co-ordinated groups that are willing to die for each other. Vampires on the other hand spend hundreds of years competing and undermining each other, most of them would rather go to the wall than show weakness infrount of their peers so no elder or above will have significant backup when facing a pack of ticked off and tricked out slavering combat junkies.

Actions, while Celerity can provide lots of actions they're all taken last, they must all be physical (no using those funky disciplines more than once) and they can be shut down using a level 4 gift most dedicated vamp-hunting Garou will get as soon as they can. Packs on the other hand have lots of co-ordinated minds that work together and compliment each other. while the theugre is cancelling every use of Blood the Philodox is tying the vamp down, the Galliard is boosting everyone, the Ahrouns taking six actions etc.... while an ancient vamp that puts huge piles of xp into celerity can get more actions than one werewolf you won't be fighting one werewolf, and they can all get extra actions.

Daylight downtime is the biggest problem for vamps, the rules utterly cripple them during the day, it's not simply "you can't go outside" it's "You are comatose and near-completely unresponsive to anything short of being on fire" and that's just asleep not in torpor.

In order for a Vamp to survive they've got to either be really really good at hiding their presence from werewolves (if they're ever found out before they're more than a thousand they're screwed) or thaumaturgically warded up the yingyang.:smallfrown:

When Ravnos rose and a pack of elders took him on it wasn't a one-way, sure thing.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-17, 04:35 PM
Oh yeah, I just remembered... there's a rather nasty low-level fetish that stabilizes the local time flow, and hence shuts down Time magic, and more importantly Celerity.

TheElfLord
2008-09-17, 08:56 PM
Nice in theory but not so much in practise. The intensity of a Garou's life will mean they'll probably cram as much xp accual into their active phase as a non-Methuselah and they'll be working in teams.... dropping out of alternate realities onto the vamps head... in the middle of the day.... while on fire... with big stomping avatars of their gods in the lead....

This is a playstyle issue. I can't think of any werewolf that would have the stats of an elder vampire, especially since homid stats can't go above 5, and any vamp with a generation below 8 can, but your group may look at things differently. Yes werewolves work in packs, that's why I specifically said one on one.


The Rite of Summoning is a second level rite, you can max your rolls at character creation and if you're a theurge there's basically no reason not to and all the fluff in your favour. With a little time invested to reduce the difficulties and some socail gifts a werewolf can summon a god that desperately wants to help them, they can choose what spirit is summoned. Just how tough and sly does a vamp need to be to try trading punches with the godly incarnation of the sun? With a sept full of ragin' werewolves?

Obfuscate doesn't do squat against being seen from the umbra which is where Vamp-Huntin' Garou will be stalking them from and where spirit "Go find the Vamp" minions will be. Obfuscate is mindaffecting, that's why it doesn't have any effect on cameras etc.. a Garou looking at a vamp from anouther dimension is pretty safe.

Of course, if the thergue doesn't get enough successes, he has to face a hostal avatar of the sun god.

Why doesn't Obfuscate work across the Gauntlet? I've never seen a rule that said that, though it's possible I missed it. Also, given the difficulty of looking across the guantlet, I don't know how effective spying from there would be. My WW storyteller makes it very hard for us to recognize people, or even tell how many are in a room, let alone read something.




When Ravnos rose and a pack of elders took him on it wasn't a one-way, sure thing.

Ravnos didn't just take a pack of elders. He was also fighting a group of Tradition mages, fera from the beast courts, and three Methusalahs. And he was not losing before the nukes went off, and he was the only one who survived the nukes going off.

What I think is a better example is when Mithras woke up and killed an entire sept of werewolves.

Knaight
2008-09-17, 11:26 PM
You could always just try to go the overpowering force route. As in buy a helicopter with a big machine gun, load it up with silver bullets, and pepper the wolf from way high in the air. You would need to get someone else to pilot it, and fire the gun, but that shouldn't be too difficult. Plus you can always get creative. Make it look like a civilian helicopter, figure out some way to use ropes that activate grenades when stretched out(one would be tied to the pin, but thats usually just a safety, so you probably need 3 per grenade), then have a bunch of grenades pour out the side of said helicopter, ropes activate, grenades fall, massive explosion. If you can silver them somehow, all the better, otherwise your probably still going to drop the guy, at which point you drop down, and take to him with a silvered chainsaw. Or just tie the guy up with silver chains, and end it in style, dropping the werewolf in a vat of molten silver. This assumes that you have a method to clean up on cash though.