So Roy's Out

[EyethatBinds]

Unless Roy manages to somehow gain levels during his "vacation" it looks like he'll have some hard times now that the team can take on powerful devils such as that freakishly large pit fiend. True we haven't seen the *ding* for some time but V's recent attack proves he's 13/14th level minimum and got lucky enough to take out a CR20 monster.

The rest of the participating fighters will also glean some experience off the victory, as well as the fact that the whole party has been surviving/adventuring for months without Roy. It isn't looking too good now, since he's pretty assured to lose a level upon resurrection on top of being a fighter.

Looks like Roy will have to make do with being the team cheerleader for a while as everyone waits for him to catch up in levels. Belkar might also try to off him while he's weak in a delusional state to avoid having Roy trigger his MoJ.

While I'm not sure most of this stuff is going to happen, it will seem odd if Roy just gets up and everything goes back to normal.

[Tempest Fennac]

If he gets True Ressurrected, it may not be as bad. Also, Eugene claimed he was the highest level character on Azure City's side, so he may ba slightly higher then everyone else anyway (admittedly, there is a good chance that he'll end up slightly behind when he comes back).

[slayerx]

you seem to forget that the monsters that the party has been fighting for months have been mostly low level monsters that barely give them any experience(one of V's major complaints about the monsters attacking the ships). That Level we saw Belkar get could easily have been the ONLY level he got in those 4 months, and that was taken away... same could have happened to haley over the months...

And i think it's always been a general knowledge that the order was about level 13 because i think we've seen V and/or Durkon use 7th level spells before... or maybe it was just 12 and we saw them use 6th level

As for the Devil... Well, we never did get a real confirmation on what it was so we can't be sure what it's CR was, and it did have it's saves reduced via magic... and we can't be sure if the spells V and Durkon casted were the ONLY saving throw reducing spells it was hit with during the battle...

The order has not gained much over these 4 months, they ahve been fighting nothing but weaklings, they'll be lucky just to be 1-2 levels higher than roy much less high enough that he would no longer be of good use to the party... you make it sound like their 5 levels ahead or something

[Tempest Fennac]

Belkar and Haley may have recovered from the negative levels by making Fortitude saves (admittedly, Haley isn't that likely to make the save compared with Belkar).

[Kaytara]

Wouldn't they just need to be hit with a Restoration spell to get those drained levels back, though? A Restoration spell Durkon should easily be able to supply as soon as they reunite?

As slayerx said, though, they haven't actually been doing all that much. Haley and Belkar have mostly been fighting 1st level hobgoblins and, on occasion, ghouls, while the other part of the team was dealing with sea monsters that are dangerous to civilians, but little more than a nuisance to trained adventurers.

Vaarsuvius was already 13th level during the siege and could easily have been already halfway to 14. The same could have been true for Roy. Even if we assume a level-up for Vaarsuvius happened off-screen, the margin is still an insignificant one. So, if Roy loses a level upon getting rezzed, you still have a level difference of about one. Not really anything to worry about.

[Ossian]

Wouldn't they just need to be hit with a Restoration spell to get those drained levels back, though? A Restoration spell Durkon should easily be able to supply as soon as they reunite?

As slayerx said, though, they haven't actually been doing all that much. Haley and Belkar have mostly been fighting 1st level hobgoblins and, on occasion, ghouls, while the other part of the team was dealing with sea monsters that are dangerous to civilians, but little more than a nuisance to trained adventurers.

Vaarsuvius was already 13th level during the siege and could easily have been already halfway to 14. The same could have been true for Roy. Even if we assume a level-up for Vaarsuvius happened off-screen, the margin is still an insignificant one. So, if Roy loses a level upon getting rezzed, you still have a level difference of about one. Not really anything to worry about.

Plus, If i recall rules correctly, in D&D studying makes you LESS experienced (how sweet is that?). As in you sacrifice XP to research new spells. Which is what V has been doing 24/7 these months. More than enough to break even with the meager XP harvest :)

[Danukian]

Belkar might also try to off him while he's weak in a delusional state to avoid having Roy trigger his MoJ.

Belkar already triggered the MoJ when he killed the Oracle

[LuisDantas]

Between the way it becomes ever harder to gain a new level the further ahead one is, and the esoteric nature of the question of whether one is balanced with one's party members, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Besides, as a fighter Roy is probably the one member of the Order who can best soak "level damage".

[dps]

Belkar already triggered the MoJ when he killed the Oracle

But, remember, Belkar doesn't know that, so it might still make sense in his twisted mind to try to off Roy if Roy has just lost a level--EXCEPT that then, as far as Belkar knows, he'd still be stuck staying within a mile of Roy's corpse until the Mark is removed.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Belkar leveled once, but may have lost that level. He leveled, however, with an XP penalty and a surprisingly low number of targets, let alone targets of a decent CR. That means Haley, at least, definitely leveled once, maybe more. V. has been researching, so he may not have leveled(though we should hopefully be able to tell based on this fight), but both Durkon and Elan have been regularly fighting and having sidequests, so they probably have indeed leveled, too. The party was the same level before the battle, so Roy will be at least 2 behind Haley, probably 2 behind most of the others. Celia is the only one he can overshadow, most likely. :smallannoyed:

[NerfTW]

Unlike an online RPG, levels are not everything. Roy is still the leader and tactician of the team. Power wise, the whole team is uncomparable. V could have taken out the whole team if she/he caught them by surprise, and Roy can take out V in a straight on duel. Belkar can beat V, Haley, and Elan, Elan can't beat anyone, and Haley's "power level" depends entirely on whether she has a sneak attack and range.

[Radar]

You all seem to be forgetting, that he was not just a fighter, but the main strategiest of the party as well. His leadership skills (not D&D skills) will be at least as good as before. Even if he will be behind in levels, he will still be valuable.
Also Roy's grandfather wanted to show Roy some new moves with the sword - hard to say, how that would count in D&D tough.

edit: NerfTW was faster. :smallsmile:

[SteveMB]

You all seem to be forgetting, that he was not just a fighter, but the main strategiest of the party as well. His leadership skills (not D&D skills) will be at least as good as before. Even if he will be behind in levels, he will still be valuable.
Also Roy's grandfather wanted to show Roy some new moves with the sword - hard to say, how that would count in D&D tough.

edit: NerfTW was faster. :smallsmile:

That's what I was thinking -- sort of like Batman leading teams of supers much more powerful than him because he's the tactical brains of the outfit.

[Zolem]

That's what I was thinking -- sort of like Batman leading teams of supers much more powerful than him because he's the tactical brains of the outfit.

Also once again his grandpa said he was the highest level charecter. I took that to mean he was a level or two above the others. Hence, if they all gained a level or two they are probably Roy's EQUALS now, not exceeding him.

[Fighteer]

But, remember, Belkar doesn't know that, so it might still make sense in his twisted mind to try to off Roy if Roy has just lost a level--EXCEPT that then, as far as Belkar knows, he'd still be stuck staying within a mile of Roy's corpse until the Mark is removed.
Roy knows that Belkar activated the MoJ. So unless Belkar kills him the instant he's resurrected, it's a fair bet that the secret will be out at that point. Unless, of course, Roy loses his memories of what's transpired during the afterlife after being rezzed. Thus far we've seen no evidence of this one way or another - there's RAW support for the "what happens in the afterlife stays in the afterlife" theory in some of the older D&D sourcebooks, but Rich seems to have homebrewed his cosmology.

I see the situation playing out in one of two ways. If Roy doesn't remember what he's seen and learned as a spirit, then there's really no plot reason not to raise him at any particular point. However, if he does remember, he could spoil huge chunks of the plotline with his "OOB" (out of body) knowledge. In this case, it would be necessary to put off his resurrection until the last possible minute or have it occur in a situation where his information is rendered invalid or irrelevant by new events.

As for the level thing, the OotS members have all stayed pretty close to one another XP-wise throughout the story. We know for a fact that Vaarsuvius was 13th level during the battle for Azure City (based on his casting of the Mass versions of several spells). If we use that as the baseline, then Roy will be around 12th level after being rezzed. It's a fair chunk of XP to make up, more so the longer the story continues without him. Mechanically, there's a certain point where the story itself would suffer from him falling behind too far, so I suspect that if it comes to that, we'll see a true resurrection being used.

War and XPs spoiler:
Rich said in the WaXP commentary that one of the OotS will be lost forever as the price for bringing Roy back. Although all the signs point to Belkar, it's a fair bet that the actual moment is intended to be every bit as dramatic as Haley regaining her speech.

I wouldn't put it past Rich to make this part of the climax for book 4.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Plus, If i recall rules correctly, in D&D studying makes you LESS experienced (how sweet is that?). As in you sacrifice XP to research new spells. Which is what V has been doing 24/7 these months. More than enough to break even with the meager XP harvest :)
No. Researching spells does not cost XP by the RAW. Just time, money, and a Spellcraft check.

The only "study" in core D&D that costs XP is creating magic items.

[MReav]

Actually, that huge Pit Fiend isn't worth that much XP. It's part of the CR of the Imp.

[Linkavitch]

Actually, that huge Pit Fiend isn't worth that much XP. It's part of the CR of the Imp.

That would completely and totally suck.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

That would completely and totally suck.Dang. He's right, it is. A summoning character's pets are part of their CR, the same as a Druid's Animal Companion. One more occasion where WotC thought "Useless 50%, hideously OP the other 50%, that's balanced, right?". :smallfurious:

[eilandesq]

Dang. He's right, it is. A summoning character's pets are part of their CR, the same as a Druid's Animal Companion. One more occasion where WotC thought "Useless 50%, hideously OP the other 50%, that's balanced, right?". :smallfurious:

A regular imp can't summon at all, so there are two reasonable possibilities that a GM using this scenario could use:

--Qarr gets bumped up a lot of CR levels to reflect the fact that he will almost certainly use his favor with Big Red unless he's quickly skewered, or;

--leave Qarr as a CR 2 imp (zero xp for making him run away for the OotS) and just rate Big Red at whatever his regular CR would be.

[Weiser_Cain]

Roy's training in the afterlife with his idol, when he comes back he's going to be like friggin' Goku.

[Chronos]

Also, Eugene claimed he was the highest level character on Azure City's side,Just to go over this again: We have no reason to suppose that Roy was the highest-level good character in that battle. Eugene lies habitually, for any or no reason at all, so anything he says is automatically suspect. Further, we know with absolute certainty that that particular statement wasn't true, since Soon Kim was also fighting in that battle, and he's without a doubt higher than anyone in the Order. Given that Eugene was willing to neglect an epic-level paladin, it's a pretty safe bet that he was also willing to neglect a bunch of other folks at the same level as Roy.

[Grey Watcher]

Roy's training in the afterlife with his idol, when he comes back he's going to be like friggin' Goku.

What training? All he's done uip there is climbing the mountain, playing blocks, a couple of rounds worth of fighting, fishing, running back down the mountain, and scrying on the Order. He had an OFFER to train with his grandfather, but has yet to take him up on it.

[Tempest Fennac]

Good point (I didn't think he really had a reson to lie here, though). A Greater Restoration would be needed if Haley and Belkar lost levels (there is a time limit of 1 week/caster level to remove it, though).

[chiasaur11]

Just to go over this again: We have no reason to suppose that Roy was the highest-level good character in that battle. Eugene lies habitually, for any or no reason at all, so anything he says is automatically suspect. Further, we know with absolute certainty that that particular statement wasn't true, since Soon Kim was also fighting in that battle, and he's without a doubt higher than anyone in the Order. Given that Eugene was willing to neglect an epic-level paladin, it's a pretty safe bet that he was also willing to neglect a bunch of other folks at the same level as Roy.

Soon wasn't fighting until Roy was dead.

I mean, if the line had held, the epic wouldn't get involved, so not counting him is reasonable.

[hamishspence]

We already got told that Qarr was calling in a favour. Which suggests that, under normal circumstances, Qarr could not bring in such a devil: so, not a true Summoning.

As a general rule, its tricky to summon up something way above your CR, and if you do (early wish, Gate, Candles, etc) XP should be counted, since the caller weren't the real threat, the called creature was.

[Weiser_Cain]

What training? All he's done uip there is climbing the mountain, playing blocks, a couple of rounds worth of fighting, fishing, running back down the mountain, and scrying on the Order. He had an OFFER to train with his grandfather, but has yet to take him up on it.

As far as we've seen I don't remember him turning the training down.

And showing all his new moves before he get to break them out is no way to surprise or impress an audience.
Nevermind it'd be silly to bring that up and not have it pan out.

[Tempest Fennac]

I assumed he never trained due to realising he'd been dead for 3 months before setting off to see Eugene again. To be fair, the blocks and fishing could have had a higher CR then they would have done if Roy was still alive.

[David Argall]

Now we are mostly plot driven here. If our writer deems a [temporarily?] inferior Roy is useful, that is what will happen. If not, Roy will be as strong as ever. On the face of it, Roy will be the same level as the rest of the party. The hero is rarely the wimp of the group. In fact, he is often superior to the point of the others being just cheerleaders. So most likely, the rules point will just be passed over.

[trajan]

I assumed he never trained due to realising he'd been dead for 3 months before setting off to see Eugene again. To be fair, the blocks and fishing could have had a higher CR then they would have done if Roy was still alive.

Actually He's probably fought a harder encounter than any, save the Fiend.
This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html) strip shows him taking on at least a 10th level party. Assuming the other party was all 10th level (min for plane shift), he got almost 2000XP.

Its iffy if he learned the insta-kill feat though.

[Fighteer]

Now we are mostly plot driven here. If our writer deems a [temporarily?] inferior Roy is useful, that is what will happen. If not, Roy will be as strong as ever. On the face of it, Roy will be the same level as the rest of the party. The hero is rarely the wimp of the group. In fact, he is often superior to the point of the others being just cheerleaders. So most likely, the rules point will just be passed over.
While Rich does drive his story from plot considerations, he also does his best to obey the letter and spirit of the D&D rules (or at least to lampshade where he doesn't). The means exist within the ruleset to bring Roy back without costing him a level; the question is: if Rich determines this to be in the interests of the plot, what agent within the story itself will provide a true resurrection spell?

While Roy is clearly a principal protagonist (he's the one with the Blood Oath against Xykon, after all), he is most explicitly not dramatically superior to the rest of the Order. In fact, OotS is designed around the concept that the PCs are just that, the PCs - the collective protagonists, none of whom is inherently superior to the others. Now, their respective class/build and playstyle choices may make them better or worse at certain things, but that reflects the fact that they embody the quirks of a typical roleplaying group. When one of the PCs takes on a solo role that's above their capabilities, they tend to get owned in dramatic fashion (ex: Roy vs. bandit camp, Haley vs. Samantha, Roy vs. Xykon, Belkar vs. Miko).

In short, Roy is not the "badass hero". He is a ~13th level fighter with a cool magic weapon and a Blood Oath. He also happens to be dead. If he is brought back, you can be sure it will be in a manner consistent with the D&D ruleset, with plenty of quips about him having to regain his lost level should that apply (although that joke was already used here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html), so it may not get recycled).


Actually He's probably fought a harder encounter than any, save the Fiend.
This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html) strip shows him taking on at least a 10th level party. Assuming the other party was all 10th level (min for plane shift), he got almost 2000XP.

Its iffy if he learned the insta-kill feat though.
Even if Roy is allowed to keep his memories when he's resurrected, there is absolutely no justification in the rules for allowing him to gain XP as a spirit. While the idea of an Evil adventuring party plane shifting into the Celestial Realm and killing Good spirits for XP is amusing, it's certainly not a reciprocal arrangement. Otherwise raise dead, resurrection, and similar spells would have to contain an exemption for "any experience gained by the creature's spirit while dead", which makes no sense at all. :smallconfused:

[hamishspence]

Ghostwalk setting allowed you to adventure as a spirit, and keep XP, but that was one of the most unusual 3rd ed settings (it was updated to 3.5)

However, I doubt if it applies here.

[d'Bwobsling]

Ghostwalk setting allowed you to adventure as a spirit, and keep XP, but that was one of the most unusual 3rd ed settings (it was updated to 3.5)

However, I doubt if it applies here.

Yeah, if Roy can't interact with living people than I doubt he can do anything influential until he's resurected

[dps]

Just to go over this again: We have no reason to suppose that Roy was the highest-level good character in that battle. Eugene lies habitually, for any or no reason at all, so anything he says is automatically suspect. Further, we know with absolute certainty that that particular statement wasn't true, since Soon Kim was also fighting in that battle, and he's without a doubt higher than anyone in the Order. Given that Eugene was willing to neglect an epic-level paladin, it's a pretty safe bet that he was also willing to neglect a bunch of other folks at the same level as Roy.

In thinking about it, I'm not sure that Eugene has any good way of actually knowing who the highest-level character on the good guy's side was. Even if he thinks he's telling the truth, he could still be wrong, even leaving Soon out of it.

[David Argall]

Just to go over this again: We have no reason to suppose that Roy was the highest-level good character in that battle. Eugene lies habitually, for any or no reason at all, so anything he says is automatically suspect.
However Roy agrees with him, and likely knows the levels of most of those involved to some degree.



Further, we know with absolute certainty that that particular statement wasn't true, since Soon Kim was also fighting in that battle, and he's without a doubt higher than anyone in the Order. Given that Eugene was willing to neglect an epic-level paladin, it's a pretty safe bet that he was also willing to neglect a bunch of other folks at the same level as Roy.
Since Soon was only involved with the Gate, he was not involved in the battle in the sense we are discussing here.

[slayerx]

man why are people taking like Roy is gonna be so far lower than everyone else... Assuming he was the same level as the others and Rich doesn't bend any of the DnD rules, it sounds like Roy is gonna be like only 2 levels lower than everyone else... one thing i think was a joke about Belkar's level gain and V's complaint bout the monsters they were fighting was that the monsters they have been fighting have been barely worth any exp; its sounds like Rich is trying to tell us that there is not much level gaining and that they only got like 1 level at most over these months of fighting low CR monsters...

And for a fighter 2 levels does not sound like a big deal... unlike casters who, every 2 levels, gets access to a whole new load of more powerful spells that could easily turn the tide of any battle, a fighter only gets like one feat, +2 to attack, some skill points and 2d10 hp... quite frankly, at their levels i don't feel those 2 levels make THAT big of a difference ... now if Roy was falling like 4 or more levels behind everyone, THEN i might see the point of bringing it up; that's when those numbers are gonna really start adding up

[Sstoopidtallkid]

2 levels is nearly 20 HP, anywhere from 4 to 8 points of damage, and 2 feats. Roy has the best stats of the Order, but he will be undoubtedly weaker, and until he catches up, very vulnerable to dying again. That's just how the game works.

[LuisDantas]

Then again, everyone in the story is very vulnerable to dying, come to think of it. Except Roy himself for the time being and others who are dead already :smalltongue:

[Weiser_Cain]

Roy also has common sense on his side, and with half the team going batty it's going to seem like a godsend when he gets back... which it sort of is.

[David Argall]

While Roy is clearly a principal protagonist (he's the one with the Blood Oath against Xykon, after all), he is most explicitly not dramatically superior to the rest of the Order.
You may be working on a somewhat different definition, but Roy is clearly the principle protagonist. Arguably he is only the first among equals, but he is #1. He gets the most appearances, drives the plot, and we have his picture at the top of the page.



Even if Roy is allowed to keep his memories when he's resurrected, there is absolutely no justification in the rules for allowing him to gain XP as a spirit.
raise dead, resurrection, and similar spells would have to contain an exemption for "any experience gained by the creature's spirit while dead", which makes no sense at all.
Spells, or other rules do not mention rare exceptions. The number of evil adventuring parties wandering into the upper planes is obviously a trivial percentage of the total population, and so the actual chances to gain XP effectively zero. Since something in excess of 99% of the cases do not require mentions such a rule, it is not worth the space to mention it.
Of course the OOTS heaven has an arena, but since the foes in it are only moderately challenging, one might rule they can give no XP, just as the rules give no XP for the PC practicing all day. [Since OOTS is its own setting, it also might give XP, and be fully within the rules, but this seems unlikely to be the case.]

[silvadel]

Why would Roy be worth that kind of sacrifice anyway? Xykon actually gave him good advice.

[Weiser_Cain]

Why would Roy be worth that kind of sacrifice anyway? Xykon actually gave him good advice.

Umm, because Roy is awesome and they've literally been lost without him?

[olthar]

Just to go over this again: We have no reason to suppose that Roy was the highest-level good character in that battle. Eugene lies habitually, for any or no reason at all, so anything he says is automatically suspect. Further, we know with absolute certainty that that particular statement wasn't true, since Soon Kim was also fighting in that battle, and he's without a doubt higher than anyone in the Order. Given that Eugene was willing to neglect an epic-level paladin, it's a pretty safe bet that he was also willing to neglect a bunch of other folks at the same level as Roy.

we actually have 1.5 reasons to think that Roy was the highest level good character in the battle.

.5 Eugene (because of his pretending to be the good spirit) actually did know most if not all of the players involved in the battle

and

Eugene has a +5 in guilt trips

[stevekgoodwin]

I am really looking forward to Mr Burlew's comments in Book 4 about what he has to say about his decision to remove Roy for so very, very, very long. Given that he was defensive about reaction to Miko (I thought she was great, btw) it's going to be interesting to hear his reasoning.

And if you're reading this, Dear Giant, I'm getting a bit bored because Roy, the main protagonist, is mostly incapable of interacting with anyone else, resulting in the scenes he is in having very little to do with the story, which means they can (mostly) be edited to oblivion, probably improving the flow of the story.

To see the same effect read Vol 3 of Robin Hobb's latest series (uh was it Forest Mage?) -- the main protagonist gets stuck in his own head and can't do anything to the body. It was just plain old boring to read.

And one final point: in my gaming group there is a guideline: Never Split the Party beause it's boring for the people not involved... OOTS is a little bit reminiscent of that at the moment.

[Spiky]

Well, OOTS isn't a gaming party. It really hasn't been that long, you are thinking with real life months, waiting for unwritten strips. 50 strips from now, once Roy is back, it'll take half an hour for you to re-read the whole "Roy is dead" era. Then it won't seem so long.

I'm trying to figure out some of the comments that 1 or 2 levels put Roy in a dire situation for repeat death. He is the meat shield when at the same level. Death sentence to only be a level 12 with a +5 greatsword? Really?

With 1 or 2 behind, he still has more hit points than most/all the party. I mean, yes, he is behind in some ways. But it's not like they are going to have to start protecting him from hobgoblins. Frankly, with all the comic-induced faults (like Belkar not knowing ANYthing about himself) in the other Order members, he might still be one of the worst to face, from an enemy's standpoint.

Besides, I'm banking on plot-induced True Resurrection or other devices to keep him from losing a level, anyway. That puts him even with Belkar and no doubt he'll catch up to the others fast.

[only1doug]

Roy needs resurrection at a minimum now anyway (was that a toe bone rattling away in the boot that belkar was playing with?) as his body has rotted to a skeleton and the skeleton has been made into a golem. Reincarnate needs to be cast within 1 week of death and raise dead is 1 day / caster level and requires an intact corpse.

Resurrection is a 7th level spell so could be cast by a 13th level cleric (Durkon)

True resurrection is a 9th level spell and so would need a 17th level cleric...

I'm guessing Durkon gets the job and Roy loses 1 level.

[Theodoriph]

As far as we've seen I don't remember him turning the training down.

And showing all his new moves before he get to break them out is no way to surprise or impress an audience.
Nevermind it'd be silly to bring that up and not have it pan out.

Not to mention, if the zombie dragon's CR was high enough, he also split XP with Xykon for the its death :smallcool: And I'm pretty sure it was high enough to give Xykon and Roy (the equivalent of a level 9.5 party I believe) some XP.

[Etheric]

Resurrection is a 7th level spell so could be cast by a 13th level cleric (Durkon)


It is going back a bit, but in 581 old blind pete says his friend cast a regeneration on him (also 7th level), so can also cast resurrection. So I would expect that is the cleric who is going to raise Roy.