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View Full Version : [3.x] Anyone know a good program for creating a city?



celestialkin
2008-09-15, 02:33 AM
Hey guys/gals,

I have been wanting to design a number of settlements in my homebrewed material plane for a while now. I just haven't found a way to do it.

I would prefer something where I can list what all the buildings, areas, structures, shops, etc are, but at this point I would take anything. It being an online program/site would be nice too, but not necessary. I would like to be able to make settlements from Thorp sized to Large City/Metropolis sized.

I have experimented with Campaign Cartographer, but it was so complicated I could not even finish the tutorial PDF. I need something I can learn on my own.


Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Cheesegear
2008-09-15, 02:34 AM
There's a Town-Generator over on Myth-Weavers here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/town.php).

As for maps, I can't help you.

celestialkin
2008-09-15, 02:44 AM
There's a Town-Generator over on Myth-Weavers here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/town.php).

As for maps, I can't help you.

Thank you, but I already knew about that generator. It isn't quite what I want, but I have used it a number of times.

What I really want is a program where I can design my settlements. I want to be able to detail my settlements so I can place things where I like, have a visual map for urban adventures/campaigns, and be able to add things that are not in generators or "average" cities.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-15, 02:46 AM
Thank you, but I already knew about that generator. It isn't quite what I want, but I have used it a number of times.

What I really want is a program where I can design my settlements. I want to be able to detail my settlements so I can place things where I like, have a visual map for urban adventures/campaigns, and be able to add things that are not in generators or "average" cities.Sounds more like a graphics program than a generator.

bosssmiley
2008-09-15, 03:37 AM
Fantasy demographics (http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm), including a section on the breakdown of frequency of useful tradesmen in the population.

As for making the city. Just use any graphic package from Paint on up. Draw out basic plot (river, hills, flood plains, harbour, Tarrasque pen (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=261519), etc). Just keep drawing lines for roads, rivers and canals and adding boxes (for major buildings) and numbered areas (for minor) as the plot requires.

celestialkin
2008-09-15, 03:41 AM
Sounds more like a graphics program than a generator.

Perhaps I guess. I am not really sure what defines a graphics program (not good with art). However, if it's as complicated as Campaign Cartographer I probably will not be able to learn it on my own.



I just discovered this program called Fractal Mapper:
http://www.nbos.com/products/mapper/mapper.htm

Anyone here know about this product? Is it good?

celestialkin
2008-09-15, 03:48 AM
Fantasy demographics (http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm), including a section on the breakdown of frequency of useful tradesmen in the population.

Thank you for that link. I will get some good use from it.




As for making the city. Just use any graphic package from Paint on up. Draw out basic plot (river, hills, flood plains, harbour, Tarrasque pen (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=261519), etc). Just keep drawing lines for roads, rivers and canals and adding boxes (for major buildings) and numbered areas (for minor) as the plot requires.

Well, I would just use pen and paper at that point. I was hoping for something a bit more detailed, and perhaps automated. Something that would save me time, yet still give me somewhat nicer looking results.

Rasilak
2008-09-15, 05:31 AM
I always use AutoRealm (http://www.gryc.ws/autorealm.htm). It has templates for regular buildings, and you can create libraries of your own templates. It's quite fast to learn the basics, but a powerful tool once you really get into it. However, it has some bugs and warts you'd have to get used to (sometimes the camera jumps off into the void, and all you can do is save and reload - and the grid scaling starts at 3.15 instead of something sensible like 1.00, which is annoying if you want to half or double the scaling; best is to get used to adjust this when beginning a new map)

Cheesegear
2008-09-15, 05:50 AM
I always use AutoRealm (http://www.gryc.ws/autorealm.htm). It has templates for regular buildings, and you can create libraries of your own templates. It's quite fast to learn the basics, but a powerful tool once you really get into it.

This is awesome. I'm using it from now on.

potatocubed
2008-09-15, 06:43 AM
Yeah, AutoRealm is a nice piece of software, and free to boot.

Campaign Cartographer is appallingly difficult to learn. You can generate some stunning results with it once you know what you're doing, but you can invest the same amount of time in AutoRealm or an art package and achieve a lot more.

Personally, I'd recommend a drawing program. Paint, Sodipodi, the GIMP, whatever floats your boat. Knock together a square grid that you can use as a base for all your maps and after that it's just like sketching a map on squared paper, like you're used to already.

Tormsskull
2008-09-15, 07:15 AM
If you wanted to drop down some cash, I think Microsoft Visio would probably be pretty good at this.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-15, 07:17 AM
If you wanted to drop down a lot of cash, I think Microsoft Visio would probably be pretty piss-poor at this.Fixed. Never use Microsoft products when there are alternatives made by anyone else.

celestialkin
2008-09-15, 07:34 AM
I always use AutoRealm (http://www.gryc.ws/autorealm.htm). It has templates for regular buildings, and you can create libraries of your own templates. It's quite fast to learn the basics, but a powerful tool once you really get into it. However, it has some bugs and warts you'd have to get used to (sometimes the camera jumps off into the void, and all you can do is save and reload - and the grid scaling starts at 3.15 instead of something sensible like 1.00, which is annoying if you want to half or double the scaling; best is to get used to adjust this when beginning a new map)

Thank you for the link. I have already downloaded the program, and I will keep it as a backup in case I don't decide to look more into Fractal Mapper or can't find something a bit more detailed.

I would still like to know if anyone here has experience with Fractal Mapper, though. I am tempted to download/buy from the what little I see on their site.


Fixed. Never use Microsoft products when there are alternatives made by anyone else.

Agreed 100%.

And again, I do not want an art program. I want something that could hopefully provide more than just a overhead image.

Plus, I suck at art. I try sketching things here and there, but I am terrible at it. Plus learning an entire program just for art is not something I want to do. Hence why I am hoping for a program which is made for designing role-playing settlements, since it will probably make things simpler while still looking somewhat good (if cookie-cutter like).



Campaign Cartographer is appallingly difficult to learn. You can generate some stunning results with it once you know what you're doing, but you can invest the same amount of time in AutoRealm or an art package and achieve a lot more.

Yeah, Campaign Cartographer is an extremely difficult program to learn. At least on your own. I guess if you had a pro in it beside you explaining things it would be OK, but that PDF tutorial was useless.

DeathQuaker
2008-09-15, 09:29 AM
I would still like to know if anyone here has experience with Fractal Mapper, though. I am tempted to download/buy from the what little I see on their site.

I used Fractal Mapper a long time ago--so the grain of salt is that they may have updated and improved it. Basically, I did not find it that great.... it's simpler than Campaign Cartographer only slightly and doesn't have any of its benefits. At the time Fractal Mapper didn't have anything particular for cities.



And again, I do not want an art program. I want something that could hopefully provide more than just a overhead image.

Plus, I suck at art. I try sketching things here and there, but I am terrible at it. Plus learning an entire program just for art is not something I want to do. Hence why I am hoping for a program which is made for designing role-playing settlements, since it will probably make things simpler while still looking somewhat good (if cookie-cutter like).


Something to start with might by Irony Games' online generators: http://www.irony.com/webtools.html

There's a village and a city generator there; the village generator produces a map as well as population description. The problem with these is they're semi random and you can't customize on the site. But they're a great place to get started if you just need something going--you could always grab the map and then tweak in Paint to suit your needs.

It's not perfect but seems like it might be the "in-between" source.



Yeah, Campaign Cartographer is an extremely difficult program to learn. At least on your own. I guess if you had a pro in it beside you explaining things it would be OK, but that PDF tutorial was useless.

I use CC3 and it's a good program, but yes, it's got a steep learning curve. These things have helped me start to make good maps with them (since it sounds like you at least have the demo downloaded, so in case you decide to go back to it at some point):

1. Read the documentation. Carefully. (Not to say you aren't, but this is also general advice to anyone reading.) The program is CAD-based and does NOT work like a graphic design program. Part of what makes CC3 "difficult" is, in my experience, the expectations you bring into it. Learning isn't hard once you accept that, frex, left-click and right-click do different things in CC3 than a lot of other programs (and it's different for a good reason--so you can keep one hand on the mouse and the other on the keyboard to do combos much more easily).

2. The pdf tutorials are not great, but search online--ProFantasy has built up a large community and you'll get much better instructions and tutorials from other users. I've gotten immense help alone from reading their message board. And while yes, the program should have better documentation to begin with, it's nice to know there is support out there--tons of it in fact.

3. Start small. Make a small map just for practice--my biggest mistake was going in trying to make this huge project for my homebrew world and I got frustrated because I wanted to add all this stuff at once. I started over with a little island and built up from there, and then realized it wasn't so bad once I wasn't trying to dive in and do everything at once. I can now build a decent world map very easily and fairly quickly. Now I'm working on cities.... and I find the hardest thing on that is just having a sense of correct scale, which is something the program can't help me with.

It may not do for your immediate needs but if you already have the program, may as well try to learn it for later on. Once you climb the learning curve, you can generate maps pretty quickly.

Tormsskull
2008-09-15, 09:40 AM
Fixed. Never use Microsoft products when there are alternatives made by anyone else.

Nah. Using microsoft products has a side benefit of preparing you for the business world. I can tell you having worked for a corporation for 4 years now that official, licensed, mainstream software experience will get you places. Of course getting into an I heart/hate Microsoft (or big corporations in general) debate would totally derail this thread, so...



Plus, I suck at art. I try sketching things here and there, but I am terrible at it. Plus learning an entire program just for art is not something I want to do. Hence why I am hoping for a program which is made for designing role-playing settlements, since it will probably make things simpler while still looking somewhat good (if cookie-cutter like).


Its really easy. There's an image of a house on the left side, you click + drag it to the main screen, drop it. Then you can add text boxes to say what that house is or whatever.

I think I get what you're going for though, and MS Visio is definitely not specifically catereing to RPGs, so I'm sure you'll find something more specific that is better.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-15, 09:48 AM
Nah. Using microsoft products has a side benefit of preparing you for the business world. I can tell you having worked for a corporation for 4 years now that official, licensed, mainstream software experience will get you places. Of course getting into an I heart/hate Microsoft (or big corporations in general) debate would totally derail this thread, so...I'm currently on Windows, because every corporation uses Windows. I use Excel and Word and Powerpoint. And I'm viewing this site through Firefox.:smallbiggrin: Microsoft products are the most common, and some of them are nearly generic. There's no way to get by without knowing how to use those products. But wherever possible, go with someone else.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-15, 10:09 AM
I've had a lot of bad experiences with Microsoft's quality of work. I'll use their programs, but IMHO almost anything is likely to run better. It's not about the business, it's about the product.