Magic on the Conan universe-how much does it suck?

[Oslecamo]

I create this thread to discuss how weak magic is in the world of Conan the Barbarian. It's my belief that it probably is the weakest magic of all fiction, but I want to hear what other people have to say about the matter.

I do it because every time Conan apears in a discussion people go around saying how uber Conan is because of all the magic users he has killed in his adventures. However, from what I've seen from Conan's adventures, the magic users he kills barely compare to magic users from any other seting.

So here are my main points to justify why magic is weak in the Conan universe:

1-Reaaallly long casting times
On one of the most recent books I've read about Conan, he finds a tomb of an ancient and (in theory) powerfull wizard. When he asks the locals how he died, they answer that the local farmers one day revolted and stormed the wizard's castle, proceeding to stab the wizard to death with pitchforks.

The wizard was still trying to cast his first spell when the farmers started stabing him.

Also, on the same book, later, a group of wizards takes several minutes to cast a sleep spell to subdue an angry mob, comenting how lucky they are the mob has no arrows to disrupt them.

On other books, most of the wizards Conan faces will rather fight in melee once in the same room than trying to cast spells, suporting that it really takes a long time to do use magic.

The only exception to this are self polymorph spells, where the wizard quickly transforms himself into some monster and jumps at Conan. However, they don't seem to be able to transform in anytyhing really dangerous compared to the monsters Conan normally faces. It's world with 3 headed tigers and giant gorillas capable of crushing rock, but the wizard will rather transform into a snake or a human sized spider, and be easily defeated

2-Look, ma, no nukes/summon/terrain control/defensive buffs!

When it works, magic seems to be really limited. Conan wizards don't shoot lasers or fireballs or raise walls of adamantium or summon minions out of thin air, meaning they have a really hard time killing anything at distance.

The most dangerous thing they manage to do are some forms of mind control, but it seems like anyone with a good strenght of will(Conan included) can shrug it off.

There's also a big lack of defensive buffs. Their flesh is easily cut, and nobody ever seems to simply try to fly away from Conan and his sharp stick. No invisibility, no disguise self, no teleport variants whatsoever, as far as I remember.

3-Really expensive vulnerable casting focus

If there's some seemingly strong wizard in the Conan universe, it's because he has some artifact that grants him the powers. However said artifact is really vulnerable and can easily be destroyed by bashing it with anything at hand.


4-No long term magic

Wizard's lairs seem to be reall low in magic traps and defenses. Normally the biggest danger are normal guards and ocasionally some bounded monster that's just a little harder to take down.

Plus, mind control seems to only work for short periods of time, making armies of minions that much harder to keep.

5-Anti magic items rock big time
Finnally, there always seems to be some amulet or magic weapon that nullifies whatever strong power the woposing caster should have left. Wizards rarely bother to protect or even care about those items, allowing Conan to easily retrieve them.

6-Magic causes brain cancer to the user
It's not oficial, but most magic users in the Conan universe seem to be half crazy, to the point of trying to melee Conan, and just very rarely trying to retreat when things aren't going their way.

So, what's your toughts of the magic on the Conan universe?

[ArlEammon]

I create this thread to discuss how weak magic is in the world of Conan the Barbarian. It's my belief that it probably is the weakest magic of all fiction, but I want to hear what other people have to say about the matter.

I do it because every time Conan apears in a discussion people go around saying how uber Conan is because of all the magic users he has killed in his adventures. However, from what I've seen from Conan's adventures, the magic users he kills barely compare to magic users from any other seting.

So here are my main points to justify why magic is weak in the Conan universe:

1-Reaaallly long casting times
On one of the most recent books I've read about Conan, he finds a tomb of an ancient and (in theory) powerfull wizard. When he asks the locals how he died, they answer that the local farmers one day revolted and stormed the wizard's castle, proceeding to stab the wizard to death with pitchforks.

The wizard was still trying to cast his first spell when the farmers started stabing him.

Also, on the same book, later, a group of wizards takes several minutes to cast a sleep spell to subdue an angry mob, comenting how lucky they are the mob has no arrows to disrupt them.

On other books, most of the wizards Conan faces will rather fight in melee once in the same room than trying to cast spells, suporting that it really takes a long time to do use magic.

The only exception to this are self polymorph spells, where the wizard quickly transforms himself into some monster and jumps at Conan. However, they don't seem to be able to transform in anytyhing really dangerous compared to the monsters Conan normally faces. It's world with 3 headed tigers and giant gorillas capable of crushing rock, but the wizard will rather transform into a snake or a human sized spider, and be easily defeated

2-Look, ma, no nukes/summon/terrain control/defensive buffs!

When it works, magic seems to be really limited. Conan wizards don't shoot lasers or fireballs or raise walls of adamantium or summon minions out of thin air, meaning they have a really hard time killing anything at distance.

The most dangerous thing they manage to do are some forms of mind control, but it seems like anyone with a good strenght of will(Conan included) can shrug it off.

There's also a big lack of defensive buffs. Their flesh is easily cut, and nobody ever seems to simply try to fly away from Conan and his sharp stick. No invisibility, no disguise self, no teleport variants whatsoever, as far as I remember.

3-Really expensive vulnerable casting focus

If there's some seemingly strong wizard in the Conan universe, it's because he has some artifact that grants him the powers. However said artifact is really vulnerable and can easily be destroyed by bashing it with anything at hand.


4-No long term magic

Wizard's lairs seem to be reall low in magic traps and defenses. Normally the biggest danger are normal guards and ocasionally some bounded monster that's just a little harder to take down.

Plus, mind control seems to only work for short periods of time, making armies of minions that much harder to keep.

5-Anti magic items rock big time
Finnally, there always seems to be some amulet or magic weapon that nullifies whatever strong power the woposing caster should have left. Wizards rarely bother to protect or even care about those items, allowing Conan to easily retrieve them.

6-Magic causes brain cancer to the user
It's not oficial, but most magic users in the Conan universe seem to be half crazy, to the point of trying to melee Conan, and just very rarely trying to retreat when things aren't going their way.

So, what's your toughts of the magic on the Conan universe?

I suggest you read about the origins of Thoth Amon. That Thoth Amon is as powerful as the Simbul. Also consider that for a moment that a wizard with a CR of 9 has enslaved a lesser deity before.

That being said, wizards in Conan are typically of a very wide variety.

[Krrth]

Part of the problem you see seems to be the way magic works. Combat magic in Conan sucks. The smart magi have already summoned demons to protect them. Howard was heavily influenced by Lovecraft, so look at CoC for the way magic works. The most powerful magi were *not* human.

[Oslecamo]

I suggest you read about the origins of Thoth Amon. That Thoth Amon is as powerful as the Simbul. Also consider that for a moment that a wizard with a CR of 9 has enslaved a lesser deity before.

That being said, wizards in Conan are typically of a very wide variety.

From what I read about Thoth Amon, he hapened to get his hands on another powerfull magic item(the ring), wich seem to just be scatered everywhere in Conan's world.

I won't touch the lesser deity part. Depenging on the universe, deities are either the strongest guys around or just slightly tougher than mortals, and I believe the Conan universe is the later.

Yes, wizards in Conan are of a very wide variety, but that also happens in pretty much every other fiction seting with magic.

But anyway, do you admit that defeating an human magi in the Conan universe is a much lower feat that defeating a human magi in other fictions?

[Krrth]

From what I read about Thoth Amon, he hapened to get his hands on another powerfull magic item(the ring), wich seem to just be scatered everywhere in Conan's world.

I won't touch the lesser deity part. Depenging on the universe, deities are either the strongest guys around or just slightly tougher than mortals, and I believe the Conan universe is the later.

Yes, wizards in Conan are of a very wide variety, but that also happens in pretty much every other fiction seting with magic.

But anyway, do you admit that defeating an human magi in the Conan universe is a much lower feat that defeating a human magi in other fictions?

I will. Conan was written in the old style of adventure, in which "being a MAN" was the most important thing. "Real Men" conquered, and every one else fell at their feet.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I'm not saying Conan magic is uber but I will argue it's not weak. I suggest reading People of the Black Circle (If I'm remembering the name correctly) for an example on the fluctuating levels of Conan magic. On the one hand you have apprentices who can only make balls of flying mist that will 'explode' when something metal touches them and kill whoever was holding the metal, and only several times at that before being forced to go into melee combat.

On the other hand you have the Seers themselves and the Master. The Seers seemed immune to being killed unless their foci is destroyed (Which is in the center of their stronghold that has a couple rather effective magical enchantments and four of it's own guardians though Conan smashed the foci before the guardians could get to him). They could freeze a man with a glance (Even those without the years of 'hypnosis inductions' the people of that area had, like Conan who is of strong will), kill with a motion, start a rather large rock slide, turn into a flyinh blood-red mist that could kidnap people, and at the very least had spider-climb and teleportation. The Master's abilities weren't very well shown but they included shape-shifting, horrific mind-rape, and he constructed the magical defenses for his tower. However in the end neither the Seers nor the Master were still human.

You also have Set-Anubis, who had artifact augmented magical abilities. His illusions were fool-proof to those who didn't know about them beforehand and had a uniquely strong will (Conan didn't fight Set-Anubis but he likely would have fallen into that category) and even then you were still trapped in it, you just knew what was going on. All of his magic only seemed to take a moment to cast except for affecting an entire castle worth of elite guard were he had to use an actual incantation. But it was the Eye of Charon that so greatly boosted his abilities (And before you ask it took more then a simple beating to destroy it...and if I remember right needed to be pried out of his forehead before he could be killed).

Then you have the middle-ground where some spells take awhile to cast while others...not so much. The 'feared' wizard who died to peasants before he could get off a single spell? Either he was trying something overly flashy for the Fear & Awe effect or he was just a weakling who had fooled the masses into fearing him which is very likely.

Most wizards are sometimes trained in some form of martial combat though to supplement their magic (hence why they seem to prefer melee sometimes). The Seers and their acolytes above knew martial arts and could snap a normal man's neck with one hand and a single movement. As for the 'only turning into giant animals'...I actually have my own theory about that. I don't think they CAN turn into the demons or otherwordly monster gribbilies they sometimes summon, unless that's their true form and then they just go right to that. I don't know the why but it seems that they merely try and choose venomous or strong animal forms because that's all that's available to them.

[Wardog]

2-Look, ma, no nukes/summon/terrain control/defensive buffs!

When it works, magic seems to be really limited. Conan wizards don't shoot lasers or fireballs or raise walls of adamantium or summon minions out of thin air, meaning they have a really hard time killing anything at distance.

The most dangerous thing they manage to do are some forms of mind control, but it seems like anyone with a good strenght of will(Conan included) can shrug it off.


There were several with various ranged killing spells.

I got a book of all Robert E. Howard's original Conan stories recently (haven't read any other authors' versions). Unfortunately, I returned it to the book shop today (too many printing errors, even after getting it replaced twice), so I can't quote the specific stories.

However, I can remember:

* A wizard who threw a fireball/fire-bolt type spell at Conan (I think he dodged it).

* An attack by Conan and a platoon of soldiers on a castle defended by some apprentice wizards, who launched a series of gently-floating bubble-like effects at the soldiers... which on contact with metal exploded with sufficiant heat to (IRC) melt iron and vapourize flesh.

* A group of four "melee wizards" who didn't sling spells as such, but were armed with staves, the touch of which caused instant, irresistable death.

[Dervag]

I won't touch the lesser deity part. Depenging on the universe, deities are either the strongest guys around or just slightly tougher than mortals, and I believe the Conan universe is the later.That depends very heavily on the deity.

Some beings that are worshipped as gods in Hyborea are much stronger than mortals, but 'weak' enough that a human hero with the right weapons or knowledge could reasonably hope to kill them. For example, consider Dagoth from Conan the Destroyer or the monstrous 'god' in Howard's original The Devil in Iron. In both cases, ordinary humans wouldn't stand a chance in a fight, but Conan wins the fight once he knows a way to win.

Other beings that are worshipped as gods are so abstract and powerful that they don't even exist on the same plane of reality as mortals, such as Set or Mitra (or Crom). You can't go fight them, and it's reasonable to conclude that they are way more powerful than humans. Even compared to human wizards.


But anyway, do you admit that defeating an human magi in the Conan universe is a much lower feat that defeating a human magi in other fictions?Hard to say. A lot of settings use rather subtle magic. Remember that most modern fantasy is colored by the effects of D&D. In D&D, wizards are really powerful, to the point where a prepared wizard can overcome almost any challenge that can be imagined. But before D&D, this was not the way magic was normally pictured. Magic was something a lot more subtle- a wizard might be able to manipulate the weather or control your emotions, but he wouldn't be shooting thunderbolts or teleporting.

There's a reason for this. For most of history, people actually believed in magic- that someone who knew certain secrets could summon demons or control your mind or affect the weather. However, in real life people who thought they were practicing magic could never accomplish anything huge and visible. Therefore, the traditional concept of "magic" is not flashy with lots of teleportation and fireballs and flying around and making yourself invulnerable to a sword across the neck. The traditional concept has more to do with magicians being able to affect the kinds of things premodern cultures didn't understand, giving them power over weather, the mind, or supernatural beings.

Howard started writing his Conan stories in the 1930s. Back then, this traditional concept of the power of magic was the only one. The flashy pyrotechnic magic we see in D&D and its derivative works simply didn't exist yet, so you saw very little fiction in which wizards had godlike power.

Look at other stuff with wizards in it from the same era and you'll see the same thing.

[Jorkens]

Hard to say. A lot of settings use rather subtle magic. Remember that most modern fantasy is colored by the effects of D&D. In D&D, wizards are really powerful, to the point where a prepared wizard can overcome almost any challenge that can be imagined. But before D&D, this was not the way magic was normally pictured. Magic was something a lot more subtle- a wizard might be able to manipulate the weather or control your emotions, but he wouldn't be shooting thunderbolts or teleporting.

"Can a magician kill a man by magic?" Lord Wellington asked Strange. Strange frowned. He seemed to dislike the question. "I suppose a magician might," he admitted, "but a gentleman never could."

Very interesting post, btw. I'm sure I should be able to think of some counterexamples, but they'd probably be the exception that proves the rule. Apart from shape-changing magic, which has been a part of folk magic since the year dot, interestingly.

[ArlEammon]

Very interesting post, btw. I'm sure I should be able to think of some counterexamples, but they'd probably be the exception that proves the rule. Apart from shape-changing magic, which has been a part of folk magic since the year dot, interestingly.

ITs interesting to note that Merlin had the power, in some poems, to burn an entire column of ROman soldiers.

[Oslecamo]

Howard started writing his Conan stories in the 1930s. Back then, this traditional concept of the power of magic was the only one. The flashy pyrotechnic magic we see in D&D and its derivative works simply didn't exist yet, so you saw very little fiction in which wizards had godlike power.

Look at other stuff with wizards in it from the same era and you'll see the same thing.

I don't think I agree with this.

From the old legend of King Artur, we have Merlin using here and there powerfull illusions to fool his oponents. Like making an enemy army run in fear thinking they're awfully outnumbered.

On the bible Moises uses his divine magic to use really flashy stuff like rain of meterors, plagues and other stuff wich would make a high level D&D caster proud. And he does have a staff and a robe. Heck is the closest thing to a wizard from that era.

Celtic druids were believed to be able to control the weather.

In LOTR, wich shows up just a little after Conan, we have Gandalf shooting the first fireballs and some other big tricks. Well, it did inspire D&D after all.

So, I wouldn't say that Conan's concept of magic was the only one.

[Ascension]

On the bible Moises uses his divine magic to use really flashy stuff like rain of meterors, plagues and other stuff wich would make a high level D&D caster proud. And he does have a staff and a robe. Heck is the closest thing to a wizard from that era.

Not to get too close to banned topics, but from the Christian perspective, miracles =/= magic, and in the 30s even non-Christian writers would likely be affected by cultural expectations. I dare say that the concept of "divine magic," at least as you're thinking of it, is a product of D&D.

[TheThan]

I just borrowed Howard’s’ works from the library. While I’ve only read a few of his stories thus far. I’m not at all disappointed with the magic I’ve seen. Sure it’s not the pyrotechnic style you see in dnd games. But it’s still potent. In the first story I read, The Phoenix on the Sword, Thoth Amon summoned a demon to go kill his current owner (having become a slave), and Conan. The demon was immune to Conan’s attacks, until he picked up his magical sword (which had been broken earlier in the fight) and stabbed the thing. In dnd terms the demon had mondo damage reduction, and the sword had a slaying enchantment on it. So yeah, its hardly weak, just different. I like to think of it as a more subtle form of magic.


Umm in the bible Moses doesn’t do any of that stuff.
He’s calling upon god and asking him to do it all. The Egyptians had sorcerers, but none of their magic was capable of undoing the works god had been throwing around. To the best of my recollection, it was Aaron that threw down his staff and had it turn into a snake, which promptly ATE the staves of the Egyptian sorcerers (who had also turn theirs into snakes). Then it turned back into a staff.

But that’s getting into religion and probably ought to be avoided on this forum.

[Callos_DeTerran]

So, I wouldn't say that Conan's concept of magic was the only one.

Most assuredly but it was one of the more popular, if not the most popular, form of magic at the time. Even Merlin's illusions were not so much flashy. Illusions and fear is still more subtle then fireballs and throwing lightening bolts.

[Ravens_cry]

I think much of the modern uber splashy ultra magic, is kind of like power creep for superheroes, only spread over the genre. I mean, even Merlins illusions, as 'subtle' as they may be, are something a real person can't do in real life. That is basically the definition of magic, the apparently impossible. Of course over time, things got bigger and cooler because, the other stuff becomes the norm, and so forth.

[Oslecamo]

Most assuredly but it was one of the more popular, if not the most popular, form of magic at the time. Even Merlin's illusions were not so much flashy. Illusions and fear is still more subtle then fireballs and throwing lightening bolts.

The other post above said something about ancient poems where Merlin burned down entire soldier columns. That's hardly subtle.

Anyway, now also comes to mind dragons and demons who shoot fire plus other "flashy" powers. Altough not human, they were normally considered magic, and are pretty old and popular.

In Conan's world, however, I get the impression that demons can't do much more in combat than bash people with weapons and claws, and dragons aren't much better.

[Callos_DeTerran]

The other post above said something about ancient poems where Merlin burned down entire soldier columns. That's hardly subtle.

The post above mentioned he HAD the power. Granted, theres probably no difference in this respect, but having the power and USING the power are completely different. And he also only mentioned one soldier column which would make it a one-time thing.


Anyway, now also comes to mind dragons and demons who shoot fire plus other "flashy" powers. Altough not human, they were normally considered magic, and are pretty old and popular.

In Conan's world, however, I get the impression that demons can't do much more in combat than bash people with weapons and claws, and dragons aren't much better.

Depends on the demon. Some demons were pretty much the equivalent to magically enhanced humans. Others were sorcerors in their own right and fell unto the scale of 'just how powerful a sorceror are they?'. Others...others you just didn't fight because unless you had just the right thing...you died. Simple as that. You could escape, but that was about it.

I don't remember any dragons in the Conan stories I read...the closest I heard was the serpent that eventually became the god Set and...that's about it. Do yo know any Osce?

[GoC]

In LOTR, wich shows up just a little after Conan, we have Gandalf shooting the first fireballs and some other big tricks. Well, it did inspire D&D after all.

Gandalf is normaly considered the prototype Batman wizard not the glass cannon.
His "fireball" consists of a rather catchy flame not an explosion and there are only six instances (and four types) of combat magic that he performs:
A. A flash that kills some goblins in The Hobbit. This might not count as Tolkien didn't write The Hobbit with the idea of incorporating it into the rest of his setting.
B. Very catchy fire. This is used twice, both times against wolves.
C. Disarming spell used against some of his party when they thought he was Saruman. May have also been used against Saruman.
D. A ray of light is used to scare away Nazgul.

Gandalf normaly uses a sword.

[TheEmerged]

The hero of the Conan universe is a fighter-type, right? That means the magic users will look weak/incompetent. If Conan were a wizard, all the sword-wielding maniacs would look weak/incompetent instead. Are there any sword-fighter types in the Potterverse (not rhetorical, I really ought to get around to reading that someday)?

Kinda like the way the genius looks weak/incompetent in Superman comics, and the Super-powered badguys look weak/incompetent in Batman comics.

[Ravens_cry]

Gandalf is normaly considered the prototype Batman wizard not the glass cannon.
His "fireball" consists of a rather catchy flame not an explosion and there are only six instances (and four types) of combat magic that he performs:
A. A flash that kills some goblins in The Hobbit. This might not count as Tolkien didn't write The Hobbit with the idea of incorporating it into the rest of his setting.
B. Very catchy fire. This is used twice, both times against wolves.
C. Disarming spell used against some of his party when they thought he was Saruman. May have also been used against Saruman.
D. A ray of light is used to scare away Nazgul.

Gandalf normaly uses a sword.
E. I believe there was some form of Hold spell used on a door, in the reported battle of wills between him and the Belrog before the famous "You, shall, not, PASS!" scene, and the door splinters and shatters under the strain. He is nearly spent by this.

[warty goblin]

E. I believe there was some form of Hold spell used on a door, in the reported battle of wills between him and the Belrog before the famous "You, shall, not, PASS!" scene, and the door splinters and shatters under the strain. He is nearly spent by this.

He is also capable of shattering the stone Bridge of Khazad-dum, destroying the Balrog's flaming sword (although a good bit of that might be attributed to Glamdring), and using some sort of fire against the Nazgul on Weathertop.

[Cybren]

I would argue you're missing the point of Conan. I almost have to think this thread is a joke just to reconcile its ridiculousness.
We don't even know how good magic is. We see magic as mysterious, dark, and disturbing, because that is how Conan sees it. We clearly can not know how truly powerful magic is in the Hyborean Age, because we do not understand it.

Approaching the supernatural elements of Conan with the same eyes you would a Dungeons and Dragons character class reminds me of when the Knights of the Dinner Table attempted to form a book club to read fantasy novels. It did not end well.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Conan was a low-magic world; so we are not going to see any Time Stop or Destructo-Boom in that world; except if it were like gunpowder or something.

Sword and Shield, longbows, etc. Magic is for wimps. :smallsmile:

[Hung Lo]

Why does magic in Conan have to suck relative to other fantasy universes? Is it a contest?

Much of D&D and traditional fantasy is descended from the works of Howard and other fantasy writers - um, DeCamp, Lovecraft, etc etc.

They didn't have wizards running around firing off Quickened Maximized Magic Missiles - they drew from mythology, their imaginations, and those of their peers. Our current understanding is the evolved product of generations of fantasy media creators (some good, some not so good).

Conan is what it is - it has magic consistent with what Conan to have mighty battles yet somehow just come up the win at the last second.

Conan is a master of arms; the strongest man anywhere; experienced in hundreds of battles and adventures; travelled the entire world, learning history, languages, cultures, and other things of use in adventuring; and
strong-willed enough to survive where any other man would have died crying for his mama.

Conan defeats demons and beasts that easily kill just about everyone else they encounter (except as needed by the story). There's summoned and bound creatures, beings from strange other dimensions, holdovers from lost ages of man, and so forth.

Just as an example, if you had Conan vs a Warhammer 40K Space Marine, Conan gets wiped out in the blink of an eye. But Space Marines fight battles against other overpowered forces -- not against a single barbarian with a sword (not that Conan would back down!).

They are balanced for the storytelling needs of their own universe, just as Conan is supreme in his Hyborian Age, the perfect "uncivilized" man.

So any comparision of "magic" power level (in terms of one as inferior to another) from one fantasy genre to another is not very meaningful.

[Oslecamo]

Just as an example, if you had Conan vs a Warhammer 40K Space Marine, Conan gets wiped out in the blink of an eye. But Space Marines fight battles against other overpowered forces -- not against a single barbarian with a sword (not that Conan would back down!).

They are balanced for the storytelling needs of their own universe, just as Conan is supreme in his Hyborian Age, the perfect "uncivilized" man.

So any comparision of "magic" power level (in terms of one as inferior to another) from one fantasy genre to another is not very meaningful.

This was actually more or less the reason I started this thread.

Many times in VS threads, specially LOTR related ones, I see someone claiming Conan would pwn the middle earth magis because he also pwns the magis of his own universe.

However, from what I've seen in this thread, most people do agree that the power scale of magic in conan's universe is quite diferent from that of other fictional universes.

Thank you all for your answers. You've been most helpfull in showing the forums still have some sanity.

TheEmerged: Ironically enough, in the potterverse swords are quite handy, specially against giant serpents. Both the Basilik and Naganani, who literally ate wizards for breakfas, were slayed by Gryffindor's sword.

Cybren: Well, most of the stuff that appears on this forum is some kind of joke anyway. I'm not an hardcore fan of Conan so just wanted to know what were the biggest magical threats he faced. Just a question swimming in my crazy mind.

[Callos_DeTerran]

This was actually more or less the reason I started this thread.

Many times in VS threads, specially LOTR related ones, I see someone claiming Conan would pwn the middle earth magis because he also pwns the magis of his own universe.

However, from what I've seen in this thread, most people do agree that the power scale of magic in conan's universe is quite diferent from that of other fictional universes.

I think that's moreso because of two specific facts then a claim on the magi of LoTR.

1) LotR magic is similar, from what I've heard, to Conan magic except that it's a bit more flashy in some regards like with Gandalf's flame. In such cases it's not an unfair assumption that Conan could likely do as close to well against LotR magis as he could against some of the ones of his own world. Granted, when it becomes more physical such as the flame and what not, it's closer to being outside Conan's area of expertise and he'd likely do less well against it.

2) When it's not the more flashy magic it's the more subtle corruption or charming sort of magic such as the Black Breath, Sauron's corruption powers, Saruman's charmed voice which would...generally fall under the term of 'necromancy/hypnotism' in Conan-verse and it's the sort of magic he comes up against more often. It's supposed to be one of the contrasts. Necromancers are usually dark un-wholesome things who attack the spirit and heart while Conan is...the almost utter opposite (some might say he's a little dark himself but that's not the point I'm trying to make) and usually fights off those necromancers through sheer unbreakable spirit and resolve. When it comes to magic, Conan is simply more resilient to necromancy and hypnosis. Not immune (though it sometimes seems that way) but it's not entirely unfair to say he'd shrug off things that would drop normal men by the drove.

So the argument Conan would pwn LotR mages because he pwns mages of his own verse is flawed (For one I'd say that Gandalf is a better swordsman then the mages of Conan's verse and may be able to hold his own in melee combat for a little bit against Conan) on it's own but when you look past it Conan usually does battle mages close to similar to LotR mages (power-wise, maybe not sheer level of skill-wise) and wins more then half the time. That's where it comes from.

[Oslecamo]

So the argument Conan would pwn LotR mages because he pwns mages of his own verse is flawed (For one I'd say that Gandalf is a better swordsman then the mages of Conan's verse and may be able to hold his own in melee combat for a little bit against Conan) on it's own but when you look past it Conan usually does battle mages close to similar to LotR mages (power-wise, maybe not sheer level of skill-wise) and wins more then half the time. That's where it comes from.

Again, I must disagree.

I'll point out the main diferences I see:
Conan verse:
-The uber magic items can be easily destroyed by simple means.
-If you have a magic weapon, the magi is royally screwed.
-Lack of magic traps in the magi's fortress. The doors can easily be hacked and kicked actually.
-No real reason to wear clothes.

LOTR verse:
-The uber magic items are only going down with some titanic damage.
-If you have a magic weapon, the magi can still sunder it at distance with a wave of his finger(that's what happens in the book to Frodo's first magic sword, when he faces back to the ringwraiths after crossing the river).
-The magi's fortress is literally made of adamantium, and comes included with flashy defense systems like activable mini tsunamis and fireworks systems able to take down ents(again in the book, Sauruman makes a last ditch effort to fight off the ents by seting off a serie of magic traps that incinerate several of the giant trees, forcing tree beard to divert the nearby river and put away all the fires).
-Stealth elven cloacks FTW!

So Conan may have a chance in the LOTR universe, but he would have to sweat a lot more than he sweats in his own verse. He can't just destroy the uber magic item with just his sword, the traps are much much more deadly, his magic items are gonna be destroyed and, hardest of all, he will have to put on some magic clothes if he wants to have a chance.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Again, I must disagree.

I'll point out the main diferences I see:
Conan verse:
-The uber magic items can be easily destroyed by simple means.
-If you have a magic weapon, the magi is royally screwed.
-Lack of magic traps in the magi's fortress. The doors can easily be hacked and kicked actually.
-No real reason to wear clothes.

-Depends on the item. The Eye of Charon was indestructible without the Tear of Charon. Otherwise why does it being magic necessarily mean it's indestructible?
-Not true, it'd have to be a magic weapon meant for that purpose otherwise it's just a magic weapon. If it's enchantment still applied then great! If not...well..it's still a good weapon.
-Choking mists, animated statues, guardian demons, walls of force. All of there were in just one fortress. Again it depends on the magi's fortress. I haven't seen one as un-breakable as Orthanc but that's not saying much. This doesn't include actual guards or mechanical traps which you see every now and then.
-Conan is actually wearing clothes more then half the time. And armor too. Comics portray him otherwise.


LOTR verse:
-The uber magic items are only going down with some titanic damage.
-If you have a magic weapon, the magi can still sunder it at distance with a wave of his finger(that's what happens in the book to Frodo's first magic sword, when he faces back to the ringwraiths after crossing the river).
-The magi's fortress is literally made of adamantium, and comes included with flashy defense systems like activable mini tsunamis and fireworks systems able to take down ents(again in the book, Sauruman makes a last ditch effort to fight off the ents by seting off a serie of magic traps that incinerate several of the giant trees, forcing tree beard to divert the nearby river and put away all the fires).
-Stealth elven cloacks FTW!

-This falls back to specific items and the 'why does it become harder to destroy just because it's magic?' again. Conan-verse takes a more realistic view on magic items. Just because it's magic clothes doesn't mean it can't rip or tear unless specifically enchanted that way. Same with weapons and whatnot.
-See above because it still sort of applies.
-That's still workable, surprisingly enough, for Conan. And please note before you charge this statement I am not saying it'd be EASY. It'd still probably be very very hard but it's doable.
-Stealth elven cloaks are for those who can't hide on their own. :smalltongue:


So Conan may have a chance in the LOTR universe, but he would have to sweat a lot more than he sweats in his own verse. He can't just destroy the uber magic item with just his sword, the traps are much much more deadly, his magic items are gonna be destroyed and, hardest of all, he will have to put on some magic clothes if he wants to have a chance.

LOTR universe has more prevalent magic and magic items. I don't think anyone will argue that but the point is Conan does what he does without magic half the time. That's the basis of Heroic fantasy. It's all coming from the hero. If Frodo had managed to get to Mt. Doom on his own, resist the ring and toss it in purely by his own efforts without magical doodads then that'd be more Heroic Fantasy then High Fantasy. In every story he's abandoned magical things because they make him uncomfortable, that's why he finds the things that would allow him to do amazing things but afterwards gets rid of them because they aren't what makes him a hero. Conan, tossed into LOTR verse would struggle for a couple months to adjust (That's on the long side) but after that he'd be right as rain because he learns and adapts.

[Hung Lo]

Other than the Ring itself, magic items are not really that important to LOTR, IMO. They fulfill varius important roles - like the gifts of the elves - but they don't drive the story in their own right - like, say, Stormbringer is key to Elric stories.

So, could Conan complete the quest for the Ring? Sure, he could if he had a guide (by punching Gollum in the face frequently) and could resist the lure of the Ring, with his steely will and indomitable spirit. He has weapon and wilderness skills, experience and vast endurance, etc etc.

I suppose Conan would use magical weapons and armor if he had them - say, before a big battle. But he doesn't keep such things from story to story - he usually has a sword and dagger and sometimes a horse, armor, or a bow.

Could Conan defeat Saruman (let's say, from the movies)? Sure - maybe not in an afternoon, but certainly within one or more adventures. Conan could climb the sides of Saruman's tower, sneak in, and smack the wizard right in the brainpan with a palantir, for instance.

Or he'd go on an extended quest for a wizard-destroying plot device, of course - then do the deed easily. :smallsmile:

[Dervag]

I don't think I agree with this.

From the old legend of King Artur, we have Merlin using here and there powerfull illusions to fool his oponents. Like making an enemy army run in fear thinking they're awfully outnumbered.Illusions, yes, in the greatest legendary practicioners.

I think if you really look at Conan stories, you will find examples of wizardry that can match that. For example, in one of the Campbell novels, "Conan the Champion," the warrior-king Totila has a wizard who can in fact summon up blizzards, raise the dead from their graves to fight for him, and so forth.

But not much pyrotechnics and not much personal combat magic. Wizards are dangerous because they can kill you in ways you can't easily imagine, and from far away in places you can't strike back. They don't walk up to you and throw flames at you.


On the bible Moises uses his divine magic to use really flashy stuff like rain of meterors, plagues and other stuff wich would make a high level D&D caster proud. And he does have a staff and a robe. Heck is the closest thing to a wizard from that era.Moses didn't do any of that. God did that. Moses was just His sock puppet.

Miracles performed by the gods of mythology (not by mortals, but by gods) aren't examples of what we're talking about as "magic." Magic is supposed to be something that some wizard can decide he wants and do more or less at will. Not something that can only happen if one of the deities decides to do whether mortals like it or not.

In D&D terms, that is "divine magic," I suppose. But in terms of history and mythology (which is where Conan belongs), it's not magic in the traditional sense. Supernatural, yes; magic, no.


Celtic druids were believed to be able to control the weather.Which I quite specifically listed as an example of what premodern wizards might be thought able to do. LOTS of cultures had some kind of ceremonial magic intended to manipulate the weather; can anyone say "rain dance?"


In LOTR, wich shows up just a little after Conan, we have Gandalf shooting the first fireballs and some other big tricks. Well, it did inspire D&D after all.Gandalf manipulates fire, yes, but you don't see him demolishing orcs in giant blasts of energy. The most important uses of his magic are the same ones we see in traditional mythology. He persuades. He bolsters the confidence of his side. He removes the curse of weakness Saruman has placed on Theoden via Wormtongue.
______________________________

I think a lot of your rejection of Conan-setting magic is selection bias. You either have not read or do not remember the cases where wizards in a Conan story had magical power capable of threatening an army or toppling kingdoms. There were a number of those, you know.
____________________________


The post above mentioned he HAD the power. Granted, theres probably no difference in this respect, but having the power and USING the power are completely different. And he also only mentioned one soldier column which would make it a one-time thing.Also, if it's only a few poems then it does not represent a general trend. Most premodern fictional wizards didn't march out on a battlefield and duel entire armies to the death the way a D&D magic-user can. That's the difference.
_________________


Just as an example, if you had Conan vs a Warhammer 40K Space Marine, Conan gets wiped out in the blink of an eye. But Space Marines fight battles against other overpowered forces -- not against a single barbarian with a sword (not that Conan would back down!).In a sword fight, with identical equipment... I think it's at least possible Conan would win. I wouldn't bet on it, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Of course, give the SMurf his power armor and a bolter and give Conan chain mail and a sword and Conan is toast, yes.
____________________


-No real reason to wear clothes.On the contrary, Conan is usually wearing clothes and armor if he can get them. Cover illustrations tend to show Conan in a loincloth not because he actually dresses like that, but because he looks good with his shirt off.


-The magi's fortress is literally made of adamantium, and comes included with flashy defense systems like activable mini tsunamis and fireworks systems able to take down ents(again in the book, Sauruman makes a last ditch effort to fight off the ents by seting off a serie of magic traps that incinerate several of the giant trees, forcing tree beard to divert the nearby river and put away all the fires). Conan could not single-handedly attack Barad-dur, but neither could any of the human or elven heroes of the Lord of the Rings. The place is too strong for any one entity short of God or His archangels (Illuvatar and the Valar) to break into.

But if you put Conan on a battlefield where men stand any chance of success in Lord of the Rings, he'll do a great job. It's only when directly stacked up against demigods, as opposed to mortal wizards who know some magic, that he runs into trouble.

Of course, in Lord of the Rings the magicians are all demigods with armies, and there aren't nearly as many of them. Which makes it a very different environment. Much of their power comes from their control of armies.
_______________________


So, could Conan complete the quest for the Ring? Sure, he could if he had a guide (by punching Gollum in the face frequently) and could resist the lure of the Ring, with his steely will and indomitable spirit. He has weapon and wilderness skills, experience and vast endurance, etc etc.While the image of Gollum getting punched in the face by Conan the Barbarian is one I will treasure, I don't think Conan could resist the lure of the Ring. He's too much of a fighter; he wouldn't be able to resist the urge to use the Ring to attack his enemies.

[Anteros]

Conan would definately use the ring. Whether he would be corrupted by it is another story. I'm not saying he wouldn't, but his incredible willpower is one of the major recurring themes of the stories. He also may at least be smart enough to realize that the ring has started to corrupt him and to get rid of it.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Conan would definately use the ring. Whether he would be corrupted by it is another story. I'm not saying he wouldn't, but his incredible willpower is one of the major recurring themes of the stories. He also may at least be smart enough to realize that the ring has started to corrupt him and to get rid of it.

This would likely occur by selling it to Sauron for a hefty price. :smalltongue:

[Anteros]

And then since he's Conan, picking up Sauron and throwing him ring and all into the volcano.:smallbiggrin:

[Callos_DeTerran]

And then since he's Conan, picking up Sauron and throwing him ring and all into the volcano.:smallbiggrin:

Followed by a rowdy thrashing of Aragorn and...er...being Conan with Arwen. :smalltongue:

[Anteros]

Now I want to see Conan vs. Aragorn. Thanks a lot.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Your very welcome. Your sarcasm only makes me stronger.

[Avilan the Grey]

I really need to get my hands on the stories, again. I have not read them for ages.

[bosssmiley]

The hero of the Conan universe is a fighter-type, right? That means the magic users will look weak/incompetent. If Conan were a wizard, all the sword-wielding maniacs would look weak/incompetent instead. Are there any sword-fighter types in the Potterverse (not rhetorical, I really ought to get around to reading that someday)?

Thesis: Conan
Antithesis: Harry Potter
Synthesis? Elric, of course. :smallbiggrin:

[Wardog]

Followed by a rowdy thrashing of Aragorn and...er...being Conan with Arwen. :smalltongue:

And Eowen. :smallbiggrin:

[Oslecamo]

Followed by a rowdy thrashing of Aragorn and...er...being Conan with Arwen. :smalltongue:

Actually, I believe Conan would fall head over heels for Arwen and give her the ring for a night's fun.

If Conan has one weakness after all, is pretty girls. At least from what I remember he's fooled by womans much more easily than by magis.

Then we would have the reign of Arween the terrible and her husband Conan the barbarian.

Hmmm, very nice crossover idea.

[Ossian]

Let us not forget a recurring theme of all Conan's stories. He fears magic.

Now, mark my words: Conan is no wuss. Sounds obvious, but I felt we all owed him as much. However, he gets all fidgety and nervous whenever he hears he has to face and (worse) counter magic. Conan is, especially at the beginning of his career, a superstitious barbarian.

Now, nervous does not mean he cries for his mama (who could probably conquer Rohan singlehandedly). He IZ Conan ZE F*****G barbarian, after all. Thanks to Howard, he has this do-or-die switch. He acts on instincts, does not pause thinking or pondering the consequences of his action, and being a macho hero, Howard grants him victory when he does that, or at least he makes him get away with ridiculously daring stunts. He tosses the sword at the wizard 30 meters away an at the very last second the tip of his azure steel blad shatters the gem that kept the 400 years old Wiz alive and all ends in a big flash.

Wizards in Conan are not the level 20 teenagers of your average D&D party. They are old, very old, with failing health, often powerful ater making deals with infernal or abyssal entities. They are after immortality and infinite knowledge. They are resurrected mummies, priest of snake gods, necromancers from the days of Valusia. They are real frikkin scary!

Now, the sweetest part of this thread is Conan in the Middle Earth. In fact, I am tempted to organize a solo campaign and see how a bdass barbarian would fare during, shall we say, the war between Arnor and Angmar.

BTW, if you noticed the kind of chick he falls for (Sonja, Valeria) I doubt he would even notice Arwen. He'd go for Eowyn any day.

Would he take the ring? He does not trust magic, and assumes on general principles that there is a catch somewhere and that he'd get screwed in the end. Plus, magic = cheating to him, and he is a REAL MAN and THE howardian
macho. Hence, magic diminishes his status of "Determinator".

M.

[Oslecamo]

Well, he doesn't seem to mind magic weapons, but now I remember that everything that he can't understand he will rather either throw away or sell it ASAP.

So indeed he would probably throw the one ring as far away as possible as soon as he touched it.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Actually, I believe Conan would fall head over heels for Arwen and give her the ring for a night's fun.

If Conan has one weakness after all, is pretty girls. At least from what I remember he's fooled by womans much more easily than by magis.

Then we would have the reign of Arween the terrible and her husband Conan the barbarian.

Hmmm, very nice crossover idea.

Aye. Conan does have a weakness for pretty girls/women, even the ones that show absolutely zero interest in him. However...he...isn't afraid to act when one's is obviously acting against him.

Example:

Conan: "Here girl, I got you this damned ring."
Arwen: "Thank you Conan. Now...now begins the reign of Arwen.." *Trails off into evil Galadriel speech*
Conan: "Hm..." *Finds a heavy and smacks Arwen upside the head while distracted. "Figures the Dark Lord would have a better offer. Damn wizards."

The reign of Arwen the Terrible and Conan the Barbarian? Probably only until the mighty barbarian realizes his woman isn't exactly giving him chances to plunder and such. :smallbiggrin: Then comes the hilarious image of Arwen being bodily picked up, carried to Mount Doom, and tossed into the lava.

[GoC]

-If you have a magic weapon, the magi can still sunder it at distance with a wave of his finger(that's what happens in the book to Frodo's first magic sword, when he faces back to the ringwraiths after crossing the river).
I'd like to point out that this particular kind of "magic" is just amazing skill. But LotRs has a lot of Charles Atlas Superpowers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharlesAtlasSuperpower) somewhat similar to worlds run on narrativium (like discworld). If you're good enough and cool enough you can accomplish the impossible.

[Oslecamo]

I'd like to point out that this particular kind of "magic" is just amazing skill. But LotRs has a lot of Charles Atlas Superpowers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharlesAtlasSuperpower) somewhat similar to worlds run on narrativium (like discworld). If you're good enough and cool enough you can accomplish the impossible.

So what? Isn't the D&D wizard the supreme geek who can warp the universe just because he spent enough time studying books after all?

Isn't the cleric just someone who prayed enough to a certain god or belief so it would grant him power?

Isn't the druid someone who loved nature and balance enough it decided to lend him some power?

Elfs had centuries if not millenia to train their skills. Plus in the LOTR world they're half mad. Maybe magic is just plain simple to them and they tell outsiders it's just skill.

Plus, the swords(actually daggers) are never clarified in being magic or just damn well made. The ropes and cloacks are.

[GoC]

So what? Isn't the D&D wizard the supreme geek who can warp the universe just because he spent enough time studying books after all?

Isn't the cleric just someone who prayed enough to a certain god or belief so it would grant him power?

Isn't the druid someone who loved nature and balance enough it decided to lend him some power?

Elfs had centuries if not millenia to train their skills. Plus in the LOTR world they're half mad. Maybe magic is just plain simple to them and they tell outsiders it's just skill.

Plus, the swords(actually daggers) are never clarified in being magic or just damn well made. The ropes and cloacks are.

Hmm...
The difference is whether the manipulation of the "magical field" is direct or indirect.
The D&D wizard manipulates a magical field (via means unrelated to the actual creation of the sword) to create an effect in the object he is making while an elf creates the sword with entirely non-magical means which then manipulates the magical field due to rule of cool.
It's a small but rather important difference.

There's also the fact that skill-magic can be learnt by anyone while spell-magic normaly can't (D&D is one of the few exceptions).

[bosssmiley]

The reign of Arwen the Terrible and Conan the Barbarian? Probably only until the mighty barbarian realizes his woman isn't exactly giving him chances to plunder and such. :smallbiggrin: Then comes the hilarious image of Arwen being bodily picked up, carried to Mount Doom, and tossed into the lava.

Oh God yes! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

It's like a badass version of Willow: "Throw the baby into the volcano!"

Day. Made.

[Dervag]

Elfs had centuries if not millenia to train their skills. Plus in the LOTR world they're half mad. Maybe magic is just plain simple to them and they tell outsiders it's just skill.

Plus, the swords(actually daggers) are never clarified in being magic or just damn well made. The ropes and cloacks are.It's canonical. Tolkein, when talking about the world of his books, was clear about this. The "magic" practiced in the Lord of the Rings universe is more like epic craftsmanship and less like D&D magic. That's why so much of it is bound up in artifacts. Just about every physical manifestation of magical power is tied to some artifact- Gandalf's fire magic is linked to the Elven ring he wears, and so forth.

[Oslecamo]

Hmm...
The difference is whether the manipulation of the "magical field" is direct or indirect.
The D&D wizard manipulates a magical field (via means unrelated to the actual creation of the sword) to create an effect in the object he is making while an elf creates the sword with entirely non-magical means which then manipulates the magical field due to rule of cool.
It's a small but rather important difference.

Heeer, where exactly did you get that from? I don't know if you noticed, but with the right feats, anybody and their mother in D&D can craft magic items.
The elfs aren't working in the rule of cool, they just took the right feats.



There's also the fact that skill-magic can be learnt by anyone while spell-magic normaly can't (D&D is one of the few exceptions).

D&D is strongly based out off LOTR. The only diference between skill magic and spell magic is on the eyes of the viewer. For the one who actually does it, it's all a matter of taking the right material component, making the right gestures and speaking the right words. In other words, if halfling also lived millenias to learn, they probably also would be able to craft rings of power and go out there shooting fireballs.

For more information, check out the factotum class.

[GoC]

Heeer, where exactly did you get that from? I don't know if you noticed, but with the right feats, anybody and their mother in D&D can craft magic items.
The elfs aren't working in the rule of cool, they just took the right feats.
Nope, you're required to be a caster. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor)


D&D is strongly based out off LOTR. The only diference between skill magic and spell magic is on the eyes of the viewer.
And of course what I mentioned above.


For the one who actually does it, it's all a matter of taking the right material component, making the right gestures and speaking the right words.
So the elves are superstitious in their crafting? Making strange hand gestures unrelated to the making of their weapon?:smallconfused:
Where are you getting this? I thought they made things the same way we do, without mouse blood and wierd gestures?


For more information, check out the factotum class.
That isn't in the SRD so where can I check it?

I notice you've ignored Dervag's post...

[Dervag]

D&D is strongly based out off LOTR. The only diference between skill magic and spell magic is on the eyes of the viewer. For the one who actually does it, it's all a matter of taking the right material component, making the right gestures and speaking the right words. In other words, if halfling also lived millenias to learn, they probably also would be able to craft rings of power and go out there shooting fireballs.

For more information, check out the factotum class.I think you're reasoning backwards here. You're using a later rule system (D&D magic, particularly 3rd Edition magic) to describe an earlier work. There's no evidence in Tolkein's own works that he intends to portray.

When Gygax wrote up the original rules for D&D, he didn't exactly as Tolkein for input. Certainly, Wizards of the Coast didn't. So it's hard to see how you can assume that the rules of 3rd Edition D&D ("anyone can get magic powers and make magic artifacts if they choose the right feat during level advancement") applies to Tolkein's concept of magic.

In-setting, the elves really are special. Not as special as the Maiar (which includes Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron), but much more special than the superhuman men of Numenor, let alone the more ordinary men of Middle-Earth or the halflings.
__________________________

[FoE]

The thing about wizards in the Conanverse is that a lot of their magic was focused around summoning or creating various beasties for Conan to fight. They didn't have much in the way of 'war-magic'; most of that came in the form of tricks like alchemy or hypnotism. A big part of this was because of the main character's limitations: he couldn't call on magic to aid him, of course, so he'd be SOL against a lot of D&D wizards.

[Oslecamo]

Nope, you're required to be a caster. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor)

Man you're way outdated. It demands splatbooks, but you can get a caster level and magical item crafting with just feats.



And of course what I mentioned above.

Caster level=/= actually being a caster.



So the elves are superstitious in their crafting? Making strange hand gestures unrelated to the making of their weapon?:smallconfused:
Where are you getting this? I thought they made things the same way we do, without mouse blood and wierd gestures?


When Sam asks the elfs how they do magic, the elfs answer that they don't know what is that thing called "magic", but they can indeed do fantastic things. Thus, it shows that there's no diference between skillmagic and spell magic. It's all the same for them. Due to the lack of info, however, we don't know what exact gestures they did or if mouse blood was ever involved.

And yes, they're supersticious. Legolas almost drives the party mad with his deep philosophical speeches. They have strange dreams. They're always making prophecies and stuff. They almost let Bilbo's party die of starvation on the woods because they had no trust for the fearsome twelve dwarfs.



That isn't in the SRD so where can I check it?

I notice you've ignored Dervag's post...
[/QUOTE]

Again, splatbook. Dungeonscape. He can cast arcane spells and ask the favor of the gods whitout actually being a caster of any sorts. As for Dervag, well, I have limited time.

Dervag: D&D casters also need components to use their magic. The cleric has his trusty holy symbol and even the druid needs mistletoe. And hey, items are power in all editions of D&D. In the first one it even granted you exp. You literally got stronger just by picking up treasure. And well, you still get.


As for reasoning backwards, remember how the one ring was crafted. Sauron had to sacrifice a portion of his soul to do it. This was represented in D&D by sacrificing experience, stats and/or years of life, depending on the edition. Erased in the 4e however.

Thus, both in D&D and LOTR, uber item creation will literally suck the crafter's life. Elfs, having much more life than any of the other races, can afford more item crafting, and Mayars, being almost indestructible, can go around making magic items like crazy. Gandalf's firework business for example.

[WalkingTarget]

When Sam asks the elfs how they do magic, the elfs answer that they don't know what is that thing called "magic", but they can indeed do fantastic things. Thus, it shows that there's no diference between skillmagic and spell magic. It's all the same for them. Due to the lack of info, however, we don't know what exact gestures they did or if mouse blood was ever involved.

Here's what Tolkien himself had to say on the matter. Make of it what you will.

Tolkien's Letters #131:

"I have not used 'magic' consistently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the latter (since all human stories have suffered the same confusion). But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete, (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation. The 'Elves' are 'immortal', at least as far as this world goes: and hence are concerned rather with the griefs and burdens of deathlessness in time and change, than with death. The Enemy in successive forms is always 'naturally' concerned with sheer Domination, and so the Lord of magic and machines; but the problem: that this frightful evil can and does arise from an apparently good root, the desire to benefit the world and others* -- speedily and according to the benefactor's own plans -- is a recurrent motive.

*Not in the Beginner of Evil: his was a sub-creative Fall, and hence the Elves (the representatives of sub-creation par excellence) were peculiarly his enemies, and the special object of his desire and hate -- and open to his deceits. Their Fall is into possessiveness and (to a less degree) into perversion of their art to power."

And from letter #155:

"Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn's 'healing' might be regarded as 'magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while [Aragorn] is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Lúthien'.

[handwritten notation] But the Númenoreans used "spells" in making swords?[/handwritten notation]"

[Dervag]

As for reasoning backwards, remember how the one ring was crafted. Sauron had to sacrifice a portion of his soul to do it. This was represented in D&D by sacrificing experience, stats and/or years of life, depending on the edition. Erased in the 4e however.I think you misunderstood Sauron's purpose for putting his soul into the One Ring. In-story, he was trying to make sure that his powers would last through the Second and Third Ages, as the magic faded from Middle-Earth. By binding it to a device, he could hold onto it where his own personal powers would have faded.


Thus, both in D&D and LOTR, uber item creation will literally suck the crafter's life. Elfs, having much more life than any of the other races, can afford more item crafting, and Mayars, being almost indestructible, can go around making magic items like crazy. Gandalf's firework business for example.There doesn't seem to be any evidence for the idea that Elven craftsmen are weakened by creating their boots, cloaks, or other items. Or that Gandalf is diminished when he creates fireworks.
___________________

There's no good correspondence between D&D magic and rules on the one hand, and the way magic works in the Lord of the Rings series. D&D magic has rules created for a number of specific purposes that Tolkein didn't care about. Some of its basic concepts were inspired by the Lord of the Rings books, but Gygax was never really trying to create a system that would accurately model the Lord of the Rings universe.

Trying to explain the magic of Middle-Earth in D&D terms is a misguided exercise, because the basic rules aren't the same. Middle-Earth magic isn't a learned skill like carpentry or swordfighting. It isn't something you pray for, either. It's something that some beings, by virtue of being close to God, can accomplish because they aren't subject to the flaws of ordinary mortals.
______________

[Oslecamo]

Well, so puting aside the diferences in our opinions on the matter, I think we can agree on one thing about the "magic" in the LOTR universe:

There's only one kind of it. The ring, numeronian weapons and armor, rings of power, wizards staffs and everything else are created with the same methods, whatever they may be. There's no spell-magic and skill-magic, as GoC said it. Elves can do "magic", Mayars can do "magic", very few others can do "magic" at all.

[Dervag]

I agree.

Now, where do we go from this agreement?

[Oslecamo]

To let this thread die in peace hopefully. It already has been derrailed enough.

[LurkerInPlayground]

It's canonical. Tolkein, when talking about the world of his books, was clear about this. The "magic" practiced in the Lord of the Rings universe is more like epic craftsmanship and less like D&D magic. That's why so much of it is bound up in artifacts. Just about every physical manifestation of magical power is tied to some artifact- Gandalf's fire magic is linked to the Elven ring he wears, and so forth.
Pretty much.
Magic = Epic Skills

LOTR's version of "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic," also includes "Any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from magic."

It should be noted that most technology ("magical artifacts") in LOTR are usually crafted by artisans rather than industrially produced. However, the "Enemy" will try to do mass-produce these things as often as it can.

If I'm not mistaken, Gandalf and Saruman are literally superhuman due to the setting. They are exceedingly wise, intelligent, long-lived and even athletic for age. Gandalf is has quite a lot of stamina for an old man. They simply have insight into the workings of reality unsurpassed by mere mortals.

Bilbo and Frodo are aristocratic hobbits, hence their literacy and passing familiarity with lore songs, but they don't have enough education to qualify as "wizards." It should be noted however that other hobbits regard the Baggins name with a bit of superstitious fear. ("We Bagginses were very well thought of before you came along.")

Part of Gandalf's powers come from simply from being very highly educated in a setting where literacy and formal education are rare. History is usually passed down in songs. Books are labor-intensive to make. Some parts of the world don't even believe in the existence of hobbits and regard them as the product of children's stories.

In the movie, Saruman's gunpowder, is for all intents and purposes, magic. Saruman is one of the few people lucky enough to have such advanced knowledge of his world. The same could be said for his cross-breeding of goblins and orcs to form a personal army. Gandalf's fireworks inspire awe and wonder in hobbits who've elevated them to the status of folk legend.

To the average person of LOTR, wizards are wizards simply because they're sufficiently advanced. Elves *seem* magical, but elves themselves don't see their skills or arts as anything special. To them, these things have perfectly logical explanations.

Frankly, magic in modern fiction always bothered me because it didn't bother integrating the "sufficiently advanced" idea. On further reflection, this makes me respect Tolkein's work all the more.

The Conan mythos tends to take a somewhat more Lovecraftian approach. Magic is simply the product of mechanisms that most people simply can't know or were Never Meant To Know (unless you're some kind of god). In any case, Conan wizards are essentially weaker Batman Wizards. The stronger ones are simply less prevalent and the weaker ones are usually ill-equipped to plan for a wide variety of contingencies.

[Yulian]

However, from what I've seen in this thread, most people do agree that the power scale of magic in conan's universe is quite diferent from that of other fictional universes.

Thank you all for your answers. You've been most helpfull in showing the forums still have some sanity.

You know...from this and the other thread I get the very great impression you don't like REH's work very much and prefer Tolkein's as the "fantasy mainstay".

Frankly, you can compare and contrast any setting. I could very easily state that Larry Niven's "Magic" setting vastly outpowers any Tolkein magic. In that setting death magics were actually one of the easiest forms of magic because it's not that hard to kill a person anyway. One of his sorcerers, Wavyhill, the first necromancer, murdered entire towns, animated their populations as zombies, magically disguised them as trolls, sold them as slaves, built castles under hills that looked like cresting waves (thus his name), so that when he abandoned them they'd collapse and bury his keep, leaving no evidence, and had a spell that rendered him literally unkillable. He was torn apart and devoured by a werewolf and lived, only shutting down when taken to a no mana area, then waking up when mana was present again.

I don't even want to think about the level of D&D a wizard or sorcerer would have to be to do all that.

Additionally, there were not a lot of wizards in LotR. What? Four? Who could really use magic in that setting? Four wizards, only one of which is still doing his job, one is corrupt, and the other two aren't seen. Sauron is some demon-thing, more-or-less, the elves had some tricks, but frankly are no harder to kill than any REH wizard at all. Tolkein elves are very slayable. In Conan stories, magic was all over, from the local witch-woman who could catch a glimpse of the future to the dark priest of a darker god who could summon demons to protect him, to star-spawned beings like Yogah of Yag who could do strange and wonderous things like shrink their enemy and reencarnate themselves to torment them.

- Yulian

[Cybren]

While many terms and concepts are taken from the Lord of the Rings rather shamelessly, I'd say just as much legitimately came from Conan.

[Dervag]

While many terms and concepts are taken from the Lord of the Rings rather shamelessly, I'd say just as much legitimately came from Conan.I would agree. Among them is the idea that almost anyone with the requisite intelligence and library could become a wizard if they wanted to.

In Lord of the Rings, there are no human wizards. Elven craftsman can achieve effects humans or hobbits would deem magical, and the Maiar-wizards can really break the laws of physics as we know them in a pinch. But a human being cannot study to become a wizard. It isn't knowledge that's required; it's the grace of Illuvatar. Which humans don't have enough of.

In Howard's work, nothing distinguishes a wizard from any other man at birth. Wizards are not naturally immortal or superhuman, and they can only become so by magic.


If I'm not mistaken, Gandalf and Saruman are literally superhuman due to the setting. They are exceedingly wise, intelligent, long-lived and even athletic for age. Gandalf is has quite a lot of stamina for an old man. They simply have insight into the workings of reality unsurpassed by mere mortals.You're right, but there's more to it than that. Gandalf and Saruman aren't human and never were. They are Maiar, servants to the archangels. The fact that they take the form of old men in our world is largely irrelevant, because what they really are is something completely different. They are nigh-invincible spirit beings, which can only be killed under special circumstances. The same thing goes for Sauron.

[Grynning]

So here are my main points to justify why magic is weak in the Conan universe:

...stuff
So, what's your toughts of the magic on the Conan universe?

Magic does NOT suck in the Howard Conan stories at least. The few actual sorcerers that are encountered are usually mind-blowingly powerful. Have you read People of the Black Circle? One apprentice wizard goes on a rampage and kills many soldiers and commoners alike with next to no effort, and just WATCHING the fight between him and his masters at the end of the story is seriously disturbing and difficult for Conan.

Remember that in Howard's universe, magic is not just some kind of fancy weapon, or some kind of controllable force that humans can easily bend to their will. It is a terrifying and malevolent power from outside of human comprehension. Those who use it are risking much more than their lives; their souls will be forfeit if they make even the slightest mistake. On the other hand, they can obtain incredible power; summoning demons, becoming immortal, shapeshifting, mind controlling thousands upon thousands of thralls...these are all things that sorcerers do in the Conan stories. It's just that unlike D&D, magic has a price, and usually that means a scary-ass tentacle monster enslaving your soul for an eternity of torture...at best.

The only times Conan is even able to fight the supernatural is usually when he has supernatural help (such as the end of Scarlet Citadel or in the The Phoenix on the Sword). Usually he just runs away from it. The only time he actually takes down a wizard is in Black Colossus.

Also, remember that in the Hyborian age there are many con-men who may call themselves wizards who can't actually do any magic, but use tricks and technology to accomplish effects that mystify the primitive cultures the stories are set in. There are also a lot of fools who truck with magic and may successfully summon a demon or pull off a spell, but then are destroyed themselves as a result. This may be the source of some of the confusion.

[Oslecamo]

In Lord of the Rings, there are no human wizards. Elven craftsman can achieve effects humans or hobbits would deem magical, and the Maiar-wizards can really break the laws of physics as we know them in a pinch. But a human being cannot study to become a wizard. It isn't knowledge that's required; it's the grace of Illuvatar. Which humans don't have enough of.


I must disagree with this. When Sam asks one elf how they make the fancy ropes, the elf answer that they could teach him if they had enough time, but in such an hurry up that wouldn't be possible. So unless if halflings are specially smart or talented, then an human also should be able to learn how to do that fancy stuff.

If it wasn't for the elf's general nasty habits of living isolated of everybody and anybody, and the human's general nasty habit of prefering to spend their time fighting and learing how to fight. Aragorn is the heir to the throne, and yet spends most of his life wandering trough wastelands working as a ranger.
Actually, he knows a good bit of "magic" healing, wich probably is related to spending his free times with the elfs.

Also, the mouth of Sauruman. It's said that he was once human, but under Sauron's guidance he learned dark magic.

Anyway, one of the main points of the LOTR is that the humans are decaying and the elfs are runing away, so much of the art of "magic" is simply being lost.

[Dervag]

OK, I overstated my case. On the other hand:

The Mouth of Sauron was a Numenorean. Numenoreans aren't normal humans; they're supermen*. Aragorn has a lot of Numenorean ancestry. In both cases, Numenorean heritage means that the person will live longer (and have more time to learn 'magic') and that they are closer to the sources of power in Tolkein's universe.

*Not as in "flying and bulletproof" but as in "superior to normal men."
____________

As far as I know, it's quite possible that if Sam spent ten or twenty years of his life studying ropemaking with the elves, he might be able to make an elven rope. But that wouldn't make him a powerful wizard. It would make him someone who knows how to make a really good rope. A rope that's improbably strong and glows in the dark and can be unknotted at will, and thus a rope that is "magical" by human standards. But even being able to make magic elven rope doesn't make you a wizard.

To reach the kind of power and knowledge that makes you something more than a normal human requires many decades, possibly even centuries.

[turkishproverb]

I would agree. Among them is the idea that almost anyone with the requisite intelligence and library could become a wizard if they wanted to.

In Lord of the Rings, there are no human wizards. Elven craftsman can achieve effects humans or hobbits would deem magical, and the Maiar-wizards can really break the laws of physics as we know them in a pinch. But a human being cannot study to become a wizard. It isn't knowledge that's required; it's the grace of Illuvatar. Which humans don't have enough of.

In Howard's work, nothing distinguishes a wizard from any other man at birth. Wizards are not naturally immortal or superhuman, and they can only become so by magic.

You're right, but there's more to it than that. Gandalf and Saruman aren't human and never were. They are Maiar, servants to the archangels. The fact that they take the form of old men in our world is largely irrelevant, because what they really are is something completely different. They are nigh-invincible spirit beings, which can only be killed under special circumstances. The same thing goes for Sauron.


HOwever, when they were sent to middle earth, they had to obey all the natural laws there according to the silmerillion. It specifically mentions the corruption risk, which Saruman lost. This suggest that their magical abilities could THEORETICALLY be replicated by others who knew how in middle earth.

[Oslecamo]

To reach the kind of power and knowledge that makes you something more than a normal human requires many decades, possibly even centuries.

Ah, then you admit it's possible! Like I said earlier, it's mostly a matter of having enough lifespan to learn how to do those fancy things, and elves and Mayars, being imortal, have all the time in the world to refine their craft.

But I wouldn't say that it would take centuries. It's more of a matter of Columb's egg logic. It's easy when you know how to do it.

A better example would be modern society. Modern engineers can build stuff that people 500 years ago didn't even dream off, but they don't need to spend centuries to learn their craft. They just had the luck of having books and teachers that spared them the effort of trial and error that took millenias to develop.

Rohinims, for example, have been breeding horses for centuries, and have refined that art to an extent their horses are almost "magical". They run all day long for several days whitout rest and other stuff like that. Sauron himself goes to any effort to steal them. Gandalf rides the best of them and thanks to that can quickly travel trough all of Middle Earth.

However most of LOTR humanity, is mostly iliterate and too busy fighting/stealing/surviving to be able to go out there and study properly how to do the fancy "magic stuff". Specially when the elves, who hold most of the lore, live isolated from the humans and aren't really willing to share their secrets.

[Yulian]

Ah, then you admit it's possible! Like I said earlier, it's mostly a matter of having enough lifespan to learn how to do those fancy things, and elves and Mayars, being imortal, have all the time in the world to refine their craft.

I think you're reaching a bit. Potentially possible in a setting doesn't mean "crops up in the setting".

Technically, in any Conan setting, the entire population of the world could all be as powerful as Toth-Amon. That world would be a nightmare of dark gods, awful curses, and magical artifacts, but every human being would wield staggering mystical power. After all, old TA isn't functionally any different from any other human. He just applied himself to the dark arts.

- Yulian

[LurkerInPlayground]

So LOTR "wizards" are basically sufficiently advanced aliens.

[Oslecamo]

Technically, in any Conan setting, the entire population of the world could all be as powerful as Toth-Amon. That world would be a nightmare of dark gods, awful curses, and magical artifacts, but every human being would wield staggering mystical power. After all, old TA isn't functionally any different from any other human. He just applied himself to the dark arts.


Well, but like already pointed out, magic in the Conanverse has a horrible habit of backfiring.

Even those who don't get themselves killed on the process go mad(raarrr try to melee Conan the barbarian instead of running away raarrr!), or simply atract the atention of stronger evilier wizards who go and kill them.

[Yulian]

Well, but like already pointed out, magic in the Conanverse has a horrible habit of backfiring.

Even those who don't get themselves killed on the process go mad(raarrr try to melee Conan the barbarian instead of running away raarrr!), or simply atract the atention of stronger evilier wizards who go and kill them.


Tell that to Thulsa Doom. He's been chugging along since Valusia still existed. In LotR, the actual Wizards aren't playing the same game as everyone else. They are, after all, effectively angels. No human in the setting, no elf, no nothing has been able to do what a Maiar spirit can do. They can and have broken the rules...Gandalf didn't not die after his fight with the Balrog in a fashion that anyone who wasn't the same sort of being he was could have.

Oh and yeah...you don't like REH's work or are deeply unfamiliar with it. It's fairly obvious. Conan never actually killed many wizards...he usually ran, or was hooked into confrontations, or did things out of other impulses. Go read The Tower of the Elephant. The only thing he does against Yara is kill Yag Kosha (at Yag Kosha's urging), squeeze his heart's blood over a gem, and put it on a table. Yara's defeat comes through his unwilling slave's vengeance, with a tiny bit of help from Conan.

Are you basing this off the Marvel comics or something?

- Yulian

[Oslecamo]

Tell that to Thulsa Doom. He's been chugging along since Valusia still existed.



He's one of the exceptions, not the rule. Also, probably one of those wizards who go around killing lesser wizards who may threaten him.





In LotR, the actual Wizards aren't playing the same game as everyone else. They are, after all, effectively angels. No human in the setting, no elf, no nothing has been able to do what a Maiar spirit can do. They can and have broken the rules...Gandalf didn't not die after his fight with the Balrog in a fashion that anyone who wasn't the same sort of being he was could have.


Gandalf also happens to have one of the 3 rings of elven power, who gives him god knows what powers. It's called the Lord of the Rings for a reason.




Oh and yeah...you don't like REH's work or are deeply unfamiliar with it. It's fairly obvious. Conan never actually killed many wizards...he usually ran, or was hooked into confrontations, or did things out of other impulses. Go read The Tower of the Elephant. The only thing he does against Yara is kill Yag Kosha (at Yag Kosha's urging), squeeze his heart's blood over a gem, and put it on a table. Yara's defeat comes through his unwilling slave's vengeance, with a tiny bit of help from Conan.

Are you basing this off the Marvel comics or something?

- Yulian

I'll admit it, I didn't read the original text only books, but I readed more than the marvel comics.

That one you refered, in particular, has the following characteristics I disliked:

1-Weak base defenses. Some guards, a couple lions, a monstruous spider. No budget for something as simply as locked iron doors who would stop Conan on his tracks?

2-Plot shield and ex-machina in the form of the King of thiefs apearing to help Conan with his super rare black lotus extract, and then dying to warn him of the monstruous spider.

3-Sooo, besides enslaving that elephant gods and having a really tall tower with jewels, what exactly fearsome magic Yara wielded that made the city's ruler fear him?

4-Uberpowerfull outsiders beings enslaved by humans and then killed by pointy things.

5-Why build the tower in the middle of the city? He's screaming for thiefs to overrun his petty defenses and destroy his source of power. Clearly mad.

6-Hi, I'm a complete stranger carrying your personal artifact of power. C'mon, take it, it's not like it's traped to suck your soul or anything. Also no need to kill me since I'm clearly an invader messing up with your source of power. Again, completely mad.

[Yulian]

I'll admit it, I didn't read the original text only books, but I readed more than the marvel comics.

That one you refered, in particular, has the following characteristics I disliked:

1-Weak base defenses. Some guards, a couple lions, a monstruous spider. No budget for something as simply as locked iron doors who would stop Conan on his tracks?

2-Plot shield and ex-machina in the form of the King of thiefs apearing to help Conan with his super rare black lotus extract, and then dying to warn him of the monstruous spider.

3-Sooo, besides enslaving that elephant gods and having a really tall tower with jewels, what exactly fearsome magic Yara wielded that made the city's ruler fear him?

4-Uberpowerfull outsiders beings enslaved by humans and then killed by pointy things.

5-Why build the tower in the middle of the city? He's screaming for thiefs to overrun his petty defenses and destroy his source of power. Clearly mad.

6-Hi, I'm a complete stranger carrying your personal artifact of power. C'mon, take it, it's not like it's traped to suck your soul or anything. Also no need to kill me since I'm clearly an invader messing up with your source of power. Again, completely mad.

#1,2 - Those weak defenses killed a man known as the King of Thieves. He also didn't die to warn Conan of anything. He died...and that warned Conan. Additionally, Yara himself is a defense.

#3 - "He thought of Yara, the high priest, who worked strange dooms from
this jeweled tower, and the Cimmerian's hair prickled as he remembered
a tale told by a drunken page of the court--how Yara had laughed in
the face of a hostile prince, and held up a glowing, evil gem before
him, and how rays shot blindingly from that unholy jewel, to envelop
the prince, who screamed and fell down, and shrank to a withered
blackened lump that changed to a black spider which scampered wildly
about the chamber until Yara set his heel upon it."

Yeah. He's no threat to anyone.

#4. Yag Kosha was not killed by the sword. Also, again from the text: "There are many worlds besides this earth, and life takes many shapes. I am neither god nor demon, but flesh and blood like yourself, though the substance differ in part, and the form be cast in a different mold."

So...why wouldn't a sword work again? It's even clearly stated in the story he is flesh and blood.

#5. Powerful people never like to live near the place they wield power? You want Yara to be some hermit? Yes, that's totally insane...except for the fact that in real life it's been done throughout all of human history.

#6. Yara had what seems to be less than 30 seconds before Conan said the words and out the gem down. The spell obviously started then. Yara got out a single sentence demanding what Conan was doing there.

"Yara recoiled, his dark face ashy. The jewel was no longer crystal-clear;
its murky depths pulsed and throbbed, and curious smoky waves
of changing color passed over its smooth surface. As if drawn
hypnotically, Yara bent over the table and gripped the gem in his
hands, staring into its shadowed depths, as if it were a magnet to
draw the shuddering soul from his body."

I'm going to start ignoring you shortly. Please be up on something before ripping into it, okay? You just proved to me you don't really have much idea about the setting or stories you're trying to make out to be poorly done. You clearly didn't read any of this stuff. If all you're going from is the comics then your basic point is invalid.

And you're dissecting plot?

LotR. Hey! Eagles! Take this Hobbit over Mount Doom. Yes, you can't touch the Ring but he can. Please be quick. We are all so grateful. Isn't there something done in Flash about that?

- Yulian