Hinjo vs. Shojo - Who is the better leader?

[B.I.T.T.]

It's often been my opinion that paladins may make pretty good leaders, but lousy rulers. That is that they can effectively lead small groups (like an adventuring party) but their stoic adherence to what is lawful and good make them somewhat inflexible and not as good at ruling a kingdom. So I began asking myself the question "Who is the better leader, Shojo or Hinjo?"

To be fair, Shojo's reign may have gone smoother then Hinjo's, but it also doesn't seem to have been tested to the same degree, i.e. Shojo didn't have to put up with an invading army of hobgoblins.

So I really divided my questions in two sections.

1. Would Shojo have handled the invasion better then Hinjo?

and

2. Would Shojo have handled raising an army better then Hinjo?

My opinions. Question 1, probably not. Shojo hadn't had to deal with anything like that before. He may not have done any worse, but probably no better.

Question 2, probably. There are more devious probably measures that Shojo would have taken that Hinjo (honorable young lad that he is) wouldn't have even thought of.

Anyway that's my opinion, how's about yours?

P.S. Question 3, who in your opinion is the better leader between the two?

[David Argall]

1. Shojo would have definitely handled the invasion better. While we can blame inexperience, Hinjo did a court martial poor job. Essentially he was a general trying to do the work of a captain. He was a quite good captain, but all the work of the general went undone, and the city fell as a result [well, that and the plot, but the plot was working thru Hinjo too.]

2. The warning arrived the day before the enemy did. There was no time to raise an army, just to activate what was there. Now it is true the nobles would likely not have fled if Shojo had been in charge, but this is due to factors pretty much outside the control of Shojo or Hinjo. The nobles were just used to obeying Shojo and Hinjo was this newbie. An old Hinjo would have succeeded and a young Shojo would have failed.

3. Definitely Shojo is the better leader. As a paladin, Hinjo just does not understand how often the law is a hindrance on the good of the people.

[B.I.T.T.]

Good points.

BTW, when I refer to raising an army, I'm also talking about the plot exposition featured in #501. But your position would probably hold as true for that attempt to raise an army as well.

[hamishspence]

Shojo's understanding of "how the law can cause problems" was arguably what got him killed in the first place.

What are Hinjo's notable strategic errors?

[Hallavast]

1. Shojo would have definitely handled the invasion better. While we can blame inexperience, Hinjo did a court martial poor job. Essentially he was a general trying to do the work of a captain. He was a quite good captain, but all the work of the general went undone, and the city fell as a result [well, that and the plot, but the plot was working thru Hinjo too.]



I am curious. What exactly did you expect him to do? I'm not sure he could have done much better without the benefit of hindsight. Some specifics would be nice.

[Tempest Fennac]

To be fair, apart from keeping the nobles in line, Shojo wasn't that great (eg: AC only had about 50 Clerics out of 300 or so who were above level 3, which suggests a worrying lack of training considering how Julia is level 3 at the age of 16). Also, the city's walls seemed to lack defences (the catapults and coconut oil weren't that effective).

[B.I.T.T.]

Well I'm definitely of the opinion that Shojo probably couldn't have done a better job in defending the city then Hinjo did. In fact as someone who has studied combat more then diplomacy, Hinjo probably could have shown Shojo up a little bit.

Thus we can probably assume that Azure City would have fallen regardless of who was in charge. But that's just my opinion.

Now whether Shojo would have handled raising an army to retake Azure City better then Hinjo, or if he would be able to circumvent Koboto's treachery better then Hinjo is, in my opinion, somewhat more debatable.

[hamishspence]

Hinjo's actions:
Scrying out the enemy: good decision.
Sending the civilians to the boats: good decision.
offering prisoners a chance to work off their sentences by serving in the army: Not such a good decision (Belkar was the closest thing to a success here)
Letting Elan talk to the troops: dubious. May be partly responsible for their morale failure later.
Listening to Haley and not taking the bait with one of 3 Xykons: Good decision.
Putting the Sapphire Guard in the throne room: hard to say. Despite being even more dangerous while dead than alive, and succeeding in keeping Xykon from the Gate, they failed to keep the Gate from being destroyed (we know whose fault that is, though). Might they have been better employed on the front lines?
Using the Order as defenders: So-so. Vaarsuvius, Belkar, Haley, Durkon, and Elan did passably well, but Roy failed to contribute much to the battle, except by keeping Xykon busy for a short time.

[Theodoric]

Like you said yourself, Shojo makes a better politician (which he was, as he suffered less assassination attempts by virtue of playin stupid, which is some very shrewd political thinking), while Hinjo probably makes for a better military leader (as Shojo most likely has 0 experience actually fighting and commanding, having an NPC class and all).

Now, with the obviouties (I made a word! :smallsmile:) out of the way; Would he have handled the invasion any better?
I would personally expect not; he hasn't got any advantage on Hinjo here, and, seeing how uneven the odds where (good trope-aversion here), would have to have pulled off a miracle top be actually able to win.

Now, on to question 2:
While Shojo undoubtedly gets along better with the other nobles than Hinjo, it was a passive way of co-habitation. If he would have made his behaviour towards the Evil Other Nobles more active (demanding things, etc.) they would have acted the same towards them as they did towards Hinjo. Possibly even more negatively, as they had been lied to (into believing Shojo was senile).

[d'Bwobsling]

Speculation: If Shojo was ruling Azure City when Xykon attacked then that mean Miko would have never fliped and killed him, so she would be with Hinjo and oots fighting hobgoblins, so she would have never entered the throne room and smashed Soon's gate, enabling Soon to kill Xykon and Redcloak.
Of course this is a hypothetical situation, so Miko could have been stoped while attemting to kill Shojo, and still be locked up like before. If that happened then I don't think whoever was on the throne would matter because Hinjo would still be out on the battle field giving orders, so the same things would have happened.

[NerfTW]

I think the nobles still would have fled. Shojo would have to give the same response Hinjo did about Xykon's motives, without revealing that he was sane and hiding secrets vital to the security of the city.

The troop layout would have been the same. The actions of everyone would likely have been the same. Belkar probably would have lept off the walls at some point anyways. Tsukiko wouldn't have been let out of jail (they'd probably have enough guards), but I don't think she really did much damage Xykon wouldn't have done.

Miko might have turned the tide of the battle, but it would have been a tough sell convincing her that Xykon's attack wasn't planned by Shojo. So her actions during the battle would likely have been the same.

Furthermore, Shojo could have avoided the entire Miko situation, and the lack of preperation, by telling the Paladins about the threat to the gates. That way they would have gone to the Oracle immediently, long before the Order arrived, and had time to prepare adequate defenses.

I think it's still a toss up.

[SPoD]

We have to remember that it is absolutely impossible for a theoretical Shojo-led defense of the city to have all of the same problems that the actual Hinjo-led defense had. One of the key issues was morale, which was crushed as a result of people waking up one morning and finding out that their beloved (if eccentric) leader of 47 prosperous years had been killed, under vague circumstances no less. Many people suspected that Hinjo had a hand in Shojo's death, remember, which had nothing to do with Elan's failed speech. Morale broke at the wall because people weren't sure Hinjo was worth dying for. And that's no fault of Hinjo's. He didn't have time to earn their trust.

Further, remember that a Shojo-led defense would still have Hinjo on their side! So while I agree that Hinjo is likely the better military tactician, he still would have put that knowledge to work in a Shojo-led defense. He probably would have been standing exactly where he was during the battle, actually.

So yeah, there's no doubt that if Shojo isn't killed, the entire situation is vastly improved, maybe even to the point of holding out against Xykon (if the nobles stick around). Does that make Shojo a better leader? Not necessarily. It makes him an incumbent leader.

[SPoD]

AC only had about 50 Clerics out of 300 or so who were above level 3, which suggests a worrying lack of training considering how Julia is level 3 at the age of 16).

Julia is the sister of a PC, being trained full-time at the world's best magic school. Her advancement should be seen as extraordinary for her age, not the standard by which everyone else in the world is judged.

As in, just because one guy graduates medical school at age 16 doesn't mean that everyone else who becomes a doctor in their late 20's is a moron.

[LuisDantas]

It is hard to compare directly, because, as explained, Shojo's death had many consequences that hindered Hinjo in various ways that were none of his fault.

Considering HOW close Soon came to actually defeating Xykon for good, one may reasonably assume that had Shojo survived, Xykon would be no more.

Then again, there is actually little evidence that Shojo was a good leader at all, much less that Hinjo was not at least just as good. When the chips are down, Shojo himself admitted that he had to fake insanity just to survive in a city full of nobles eager to kill him. Also, the disastrous loss of the confidence of his Paladins is a direct result of his manipulative ways. It is not a stretch to say that Azure City fell (and certainly not Hinjo) because he failed as a ruler.

For all his supposed faults, Hinjo inspires far more trust and goodwill than Shinjo ever tried to. He would have dealt with Kubota and other treacherous nobles in a very different way than Shojo did, but for all we know it would be a far better way.

[dps]

Speculation: If Shojo was ruling Azure City when Xykon attacked then that mean Miko would have never fliped and killed him, so she would be with Hinjo and oots fighting hobgoblins, so she would have never entered the throne room and smashed Soon's gate, enabling Soon to kill Xykon and Redcloak.
Of course this is a hypothetical situation, so Miko could have been stoped while attemting to kill Shojo, and still be locked up like before. If that happened then I don't think whoever was on the throne would matter because Hinjo would still be out on the battle field giving orders, so the same things would have happened.

If Miko had not attacked Shojo, both she and Hinjo would have been in the throne room with the rest of the Sapphire Guard, and would have most likely fallen victim the Xykon's bouncing ball trick.

[Virgo]

Given Kubota's ninja-attack on Hinjo durig the battle, I wonder how Shojo's continued... you know... living would have affected that.

I imagine that Hinjo still would have been attacked, since he was the presumptive heir, and maybe in the confusion Kubota would have tried to do away with Shojo as well, for a one-two punch.

It's not particularly relevant, but it's worth considering that Shojo might not have survived much longer anyway.

[Warren Dew]

I think Hinjo's weaknesses are clearly brought out in strip 414 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html), where Hinjo loses the confidence of the nobles. I don't think this is just a matter of inexperience. Like many of the paladins we see, Hinjo is arrogant enough to expect others to obey him without his explaining his reasoning, even when they don't directly work for him.

I think it's very likely that Shojo would have had the nobles fighting for the city rather than abandoning it. For example, he might not have let them in on the fact that there was an attacking army until it was too late for them to prepare the boats properly. He would almost certainly have been able to convince them that fighting was a better course than negotiating. That would probably have doubled or tripled the city's defensive forces.

With that increase in the defense, I think the walls and gate would have been held easily. However, I don't think Shojo would have done any better in the throne room fight. Assuming the gate were still destroyed, what would have happened then? Well, the morale of the defense might have been affected, but also Xykon and Redcloak would have had less reason to press the attack. I think there's a very good chance Shojo could have held the city if he stayed alive.

However, that's a very big "if". The reason Shojo died was because, while he did well at keeping the nobles in line, he did very poorly at managing the Sapphire Guard, keeping them in the dark and acting behind their backs while expecting their obedience - much as Hinjo tries to do with the nobles. His dying is a result of this weakness, so it could be said that losing the city was as much Shojo's fault as Hinjo's. In that light, one could say that their effectiveness was the same, since the result was the fault of both of them.

[SPoD]

Given Kubota's ninja-attack on Hinjo durig the battle, I wonder how Shojo's continued... you know... living would have affected that.

I imagine that Hinjo still would have been attacked, since he was the presumptive heir, and maybe in the confusion Kubota would have tried to do away with Shojo as well, for a one-two punch.

It's not particularly relevant, but it's worth considering that Shojo might not have survived much longer anyway.

Except that Kubota was satisfied with the status quo under Shojo, because Shojo was capable of tricking Kubota into thinking that he was manipulating Shojo. The ninja attacks began because it was obvious that Hinjo could not be "manipulated" in the same way, meaning that he had to be eliminated.

Shojo was by far a better POLITICIAN than Hinjo will ever, EVER be. Whether playing politics is the best way to lead is a larger question.

[Caewil]

Shojo would probably have held out better. He had finesse, he would have made the nobles see it was in their best interests to hold the city. His murder at Miko's hands was not a result of his secrecy but of Miko's rising paranoia and insanity. I do not see how he could be blamed for that.

[Lowkey]

With Hinjo in charge at least 3 Houses, with their private armies of samurai, trained men under arms, and assassins refused to fight. This is not an insignificant resource and battles have turned on less.

[slayerx]

Details about the battle would be far to hard to call as they rely on way to many what-ifs that could swing either way

The battle would have been lost regardless of who was leading...
That battle was pretty much over the moment the death knight cut down the giant soliders guarding the breach in the wall... after that happened, Redcloak was free to attack in full force and overrun them through sheer numbers

I think the only real difference Shojo would have made was calling for a retreat and abandoning the city sooner... Hinjo was too stuborn and wanted to fight to the end and needed to be convince to turn back. Shojo might have seen when the battle was lost sooner and called for a retreat, especially after the gate was destroyed


Shojo would probably have held out better. He had finesse, he would have made the nobles see it was in their best interests to hold the city. His murder at Miko's hands was not a result of his secrecy but of Miko's rising paranoia and insanity. I do not see how he could be blamed for that.
I doubt Shojo could have convinced the nobles to stay... When it comes down to it, they were looking out only for themselves; their lives came first and foremost... the only way they would have stayed is if Shojo could convince them that staying was worth risking their lives for. Those nobles were looking for any excuse they could find to high tail it out of there...

as for Miko, her paranooia and insanity needed 'something' to work with... she didn't pull conclusions out of thin air, but out a VERY inaccurate and rash assumptions of actual events... Frankly, Shojo's secrecy fed fuel to that fire... she did not suspect him of any kind of wrong doing until after she found out he was keeping secrets... if He had not been keeping secrets she would still be blaming the OotS for all that was happening


Further, remember that a Shojo-led defense would still have Hinjo on their side! So while I agree that Hinjo is likely the better military tactician, he still would have put that knowledge to work in a Shojo-led defense. He probably would have been standing exactly where he was during the battle, actually.

So yeah, there's no doubt that if Shojo isn't killed, the entire situation is vastly improved, maybe even to the point of holding out against Xykon (if the nobles stick around). Does that make Shojo a better leader? Not necessarily. It makes him an incumbent leader.
As someone mentioned before, if Hinjo was not leading the battle he would have been in the throne room with the other paladins... the oath to protect the gate overrides shojo's orders... Hinjo is fairly high level but he would have died against Xykon all the same... He was better off on the front lines where he could do serious damage to the enemy armies

And yes, the entire situation would have changed, but not necessarily for the better... the only plus side is that their would have been more moral would have been better... but the nobles would have still fled... but many tactics might have changed and they might have changed for the worst under him


Furthermore, Shojo could have avoided the entire Miko situation, and the lack of preperation, by telling the Paladins about the threat to the gates. That way they would have gone to the Oracle immediently, long before the Order arrived, and had time to prepare adequate defenses.
Shojo needed HARD EVIDENCE of a threat to the gates to get the paladins to work with him. That was one of his problems. Lirians gate was destoryed by a forest fire which, due to the some poor spot checks, could have been natural causes... and then the next gate was destoryed by the order of the stick... however their testimony is not one might call "hard evidence"... There was some evidence that there was a threat to the other gates, but not enough to convince the order to take action... they had a very strict oath about not interfering with the other gates

[AceOfFools]

SPoD has it right.

Manipulating the ruler of a city still standing is a much stronger position than fleeing refugee. Shojo's ruse would have helped keep at least some of the nobles from leaving by making them think it was in their best interest.

As for weather it would have made a difference, or for raising an army subsequently?

I certainly have no idea.

[Tempest Fennac]

In regards to the training, why weren't AC's casters being trained in the same way? While we don't know about any of the other students at Warthogs (except Pompei), the school had been around for decades according to SoD, so there's no real reason why the AC leaders shouldn't have studied their training methods (the Ninja Waitress appeared to be at least level 2 due to being able to turn invisible as well).

[SoC175]

(as Shojo most likely has 0 experience actually fighting and commanding, having an NPC class and all).
Actually with his skill list from his noble class he makes a better general than a paladin. In D&D it's based on history (IMO stange but that's what WotC decided) and that's on Shojo's skill list but not on Hinjo's

[Tempest Fennac]

That is odd (I suppose it makes sense to a point, but historical knowledge of tactics can become irrelevant in the event of a major development, such as the machine gun, more reliable planes and tanks).

[factotum]

If Miko had not attacked Shojo, both she and Hinjo would have been in the throne room with the rest of the Sapphire Guard, and would have most likely fallen victim the Xykon's bouncing ball trick.

I don't see the logic there. They still would have needed a military leader to coordinate things on the field, and Shojo definitely wasn't that; it's unlikely Miko would have been chosen in such a role because nobody liked her. Secondly, Miko and Hinjo might well have been high enough level to make their saving throws against the Symbol of Insanity (just as O-Chul and a few others did), and that might have changed the situation in the throne room completely.

[LuisDantas]

With Hinjo in charge at least 3 Houses, with their private armies of samurai, trained men under arms, and assassins refused to fight. This is not an insignificant resource and battles have turned on less.

Certainly true. But due mainly to Shojo's shortcomings (both in assuring his own survival and succession as well as in securing the noble house's true loyalty) and, indeed, very hard to fault Hinjo for.

Give Hinjo 40+ years as the City ruler - or, at least, let him take charge in less extreme a situation - and who knows, he could humble Shojo's reign for all we know. At the very least I suppose he would not need to fake senility, although of course he can't anyway.

[RMS Oceanic]

I think Rich said it best in War and XPs:

Azure City is meant to be a paragon of Law and Good, but scratch the surface, and you find fundamental errors: an agressive pre-emptive approach to protecting the gate, which ends up creating the very enemy who conquers them; a powerful and ambitious nobility, who only care for their own power, and left the commoners at the mercy of the Hobgoblins; and a ruler who pretty much had an antagonistic relationship with both the Nobility and the Paladin order. Had Shojo tried to persuade the Paladins that the gates were in danger, and that the Oath had effectively expired, instead of plotting behind their back, then its likely he'd still be alive. Admittedly, the Nobility is another problem, and I don't know how the paladins would feel about being in on the secret of Shojo's feigned senility.

It's a tough one, but I think the real problem is Azure City's system of government: the Throne is under assault from strong nobles on every side, more worried about their own power than the good of the City. On the other hand, the state secret that is the gate can make it difficult for the ruler to garnish support from the Nobles. We saw this in 414, although it's probably likely that Kubota just used that as an excuse. If the City is ever liberated, Hinjo would have to enact major reform, even if that surrenders some of the absolute power the Monarchy retains. Perhaps a parliamentary Monarchy would work better towards a more stable city.

[Caleniel]

3. Definitely Shojo is the better leader. As a paladin, Hinjo just does not understand how often the law is a hindrance on the good of the people.

Eeeks. Now this may be fine in the OotSiverse, but I hope you don't apply this line of thinking to real life. The law is there specifically to have an objective measure of "the good of the people".

If it is not determined by the law, who is to judge what "the good of the people" is? The Strong Leader? Scary image.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Eeeks. Now this may be fine in the OotSiverse, but I hope you don't apply this line of thinking to real life. The law is there specifically to have an objective measure of "the good of the people".

If it is not determined by the law, who is to judge what "the good of the people" is? The Strong Leader? Scary image.The problem is that the best and most moral decision is usually determined by factors that are too numerous and complex to be codified into law. The law is a general baseline, but the 'right' decision varies so much, that often the law would instruct the making of a poor decision. In such a situation, the ruler is faced with either breaking the law, or hurting the people. Which is worse?

[SPoD]

In regards to the training, why weren't AC's casters being trained in the same way? While we don't know about any of the other students at Warthogs (except Pompei), the school had been around for decades according to SoD, so there's no real reason why the AC leaders shouldn't have studied their training methods (the Ninja Waitress appeared to be at least level 2 due to being able to turn invisible as well).

"No real reason"?? Here, just off the top of my head, seven possible reasons:

1.) Hogwart's has a secret proprietary training technique that it does not share.
2.) The training technique is not secret, but only applies to wizards, not clerics.
3.) The training technique is not secret, but the church of the Twelve Gods views it as a corrupt Northern practice that does not become the blessed of the Twelve Gods (Hogwart's does employ demons to guard its campus, for example).
4.) The training technique is already being used, but it only works for a class size of 10-20 students at a time (we have no data on Hogwart's enrollment numbers).
5.) The church of the Twelve Gods is not a school or a boot camp in the first place, and does not require clerics to advance at any rate other than their faith encourages them. Remember, their main goal is to attend the spiritual life of Azure City, not act as the army.
6.) Julia has natural talent that cannot be duplicated.
7.) Julia was already 1st or 2nd level before going to school, as a result of early-life tutoring by her father.

And the list could go on. Really, it's just silly to think that whatever got Julia to level 3 could be mass replicated to the clerics of AC, and that they were just lazy if they didn't do it.

[Tempest Fennac]

Those are good points. Considering the social benefits of having a large amount of Clerics with access to level 3 spells, I would have thought that most supposedly LG states would be eager to get their Clerics to at least level 5 ASAP, though (if they are trained and paid by the government, getting that level of training shouldn't be a problem). Also, I thought they used wards to protect Warthogs from ghosts?

[Linkavitch]

Hinjo is a better leader, as per leading the troops into battle(comparing what Shojo would have been at Hinjo's age.) However, S is a better ruler, as per taking care of everyday life, and figuring out how to deal with people like Kubota.

[David Argall]

I am curious. What exactly did you expect him to do? I'm not sure he could have done much better without the benefit of hindsight. Some specifics would be nice.
Look where General Hinjo was during the entire fight, on the wall where Captain Hinjo could function well. In effect all thru the fight, there was no Azure City commander. Each section of the wall was on its own. Hinjo was busy dealing with hobgoblins in his face instead of how his army was to be handled.
This is a rather common reaction to increased responsibility. Suddenly you are faced with decisions that you are not sure how to deal with. So you go back to making the less important decisions you do know how to handle. You avoid making any really disastrous decisions, but it is still a very bad management style. Those decisions still have to be made, and inaction is ultimately the wrong action.

Now the direct result of this is the breech. It is obvious down to the newest recruit that the enemy will be hitting the breech, and hitting it hard. This is routine and obvious tactics. So you move troops from other, less endangered, sections of the wall. Again, very basic tactics, which were not done. After the breech falls, we see great masses of defensive troops who had been just standing around instead of being sent to the breech. Hinjo only thinks to send troops there when his own section of the wall is finally no longer under serious attack. He has been thinking like a section commander, aware of the danger here, and ignoring the greater danger there. As a result, all those idle troops who have just stood around are slaughtered. Whether they could have stopped the attack can be debated. But they never got the chance, and had no chance once the breech was taken.



To be fair, apart from keeping the nobles in line, Shojo wasn't that great (eg: AC only had about 50 Clerics out of 300 or so who were above level 3, which suggests a worrying lack of training
The figure is more or less right out of the DMG. If we start with 400 of a class, 200 will be first level, 100 will be second, and 50 4th or higher. Now the DMG figures are attackable on a number of grounds, but we have no grounds here to assume any deficiencies in the local clerical training program.



considering how Julia is level 3 at the age of 16).
Julia is an individual example, and thus a dangerous base for an argument.


Also, the city's walls seemed to lack defences (the catapults and coconut oil weren't that effective).
The coconut oil was there for a joke. But in general in these wall defenses, we would assume that Hinjo was just as involved in these decisions as Shojo was. [We can argue either way here. Hinjo might have been arguing for more defense, or insisting the money be spent on more attempts to hunt down threats to the Gate, or... But we can not make an assumption that Hinjo would have done a better, or even different, job than Shojo.]



Speculation: If Shojo was ruling Azure City when Xykon attacked then that mean Miko would have never fliped and killed him, so she would be with Hinjo and oots fighting hobgoblins,
We are trying to compare Hinjo vs Shojo, so we have to keep everything outside factor as level as possible. That means we assume Miko flips out and kills one of the two before being carted off to jail. Sohojo gets the help of neither Hinjo nor Miko.



Tsukiko wouldn't have been let out of jail
Actually, Shojo would be the more likely to do that. Recall that paladins have that dislike of associating with evil, and giving a guilty criminal the chance to avoid legally imposed punishment has to be distasteful for Hinjo. However, emptying the prison to get front line fighters was a common tactic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Argall
3. Definitely Shojo is the better leader. As a paladin, Hinjo just does not understand how often the law is a hindrance on the good of the people.


Now this may be fine in the OotSiverse, but I hope you don't apply this line of thinking to real life. The law is there specifically to have an objective measure of "the good of the people".
The law is a tremendous failure at doing so. The number of laws that are clearly bad for the people, as opposed to some special interest with pull, is so massive as to call into question whether anybody in government cares about the good of the people, when it is measured against looking good in the press and getting re-elected.
No, our real life paladin would eager enforce a variety of laws that would hurt us, and be convinced all the way that he was helping us.


If it is not determined by the law, who is to judge what "the good of the people" is? The Strong Leader? Scary image.
The strong leader is the law, and vice-versa. So no, that is not a real alternative. The anarchy of the market place does a much better job.



I think Rich said it best in War and XPs:


Azure City is meant to be a paragon of Law and Good, but scratch the surface, and you find fundamental errors: an agressive pre-emptive approach to protecting the gate, which ends up creating the very enemy who conquers them; a powerful and ambitious nobility, who only care for their own power, and left the commoners at the mercy of the Hobgoblins; and a ruler who pretty much had an antagonistic relationship with both the Nobility and the Paladin order. Had Shojo tried to persuade the Paladins that the gates were in danger, and that the Oath had effectively expired, instead of plotting behind their back, then its likely he'd still be alive. Admittedly, the Nobility is another problem, and I don't know how the paladins would feel about being in on the secret of Shojo's feigned senility.

W&XP Now I have yet to see my copy, which means I can't see the context here. But assuming it is a reasonable correct summation of the writer's thinking, he either doesn't know what he is talking about [& yes that happens] or he simply did a bad job of getting the message to us.
Where do we see evidence that Azure City created its own doom? We can look at Redcloak, but he is just an individual, and not the most important one. We can replace him with random lowly minion, and Xykon still comes to Azure City and takes it out. Redcloak is no doubt thrilled at his part in this, but he is just a part. Recall here that the Dark One was after the gates from their building. The aggressive defense on the face of it delayed any success by his forces, and so can't be blamed for the eventual fall.
Shojo would have still been alive if he had let the paladin in on his plans? Where do we get the least information this was a viable option? [Roy for example is furious that he was dragged into the plan, but makes no claim that Shojo could have succeeded by alternative methods.] Instead we are told that the paladins would reject the idea out of hand, and Shojo is arrested for trying to do something anyway. Shojo might be alive now. Likely a spot would have been reserved for him on his ship. But beyond that? We see no signs there would be more than cosmetic changes in the final result.

[fractal]

Actually, Shojo would be the more likely to do that. Recall that paladins have that dislike of associating with evil, and giving a guilty criminal the chance to avoid legally imposed punishment has to be distasteful for Hinjo. However, emptying the prison to get front line fighters was a common tactic.
Shojo might have let them out. However, if he did, I bet he would have done so in a manner that would have prevented betrayal. Hinjo was just trusting to their better natures and their desire to be free. He failed to envision the sorts of crimes they could commit while still ostensibly aiding the defenses.

Letting Tsukiko and the rogue out was arguably Hinjo's biggest "active" mistake and I don't think Shojo and his greater worldliness (and better Sense Motive) would have made that error.

[RMS Oceanic]

W&XP Now I have yet to see my copy, which means I can't see the context here. But assuming it is a reasonable correct summation of the writer's thinking, he either doesn't know what he is talking about [& yes that happens] or he simply did a bad job of getting the message to us.
Where do we see evidence that Azure City created its own doom? We can look at Redcloak, but he is just an individual, and not the most important one. We can replace him with random lowly minion, and Xykon still comes to Azure City and takes it out. Redcloak is no doubt thrilled at his part in this, but he is just a part. Recall here that the Dark One was after the gates from their building. The aggressive defense on the face of it delayed any success by his forces, and so can't be blamed for the eventual fall.
Shojo would have still been alive if he had let the paladin in on his plans? Where do we get the least information this was a viable option? [Roy for example is furious that he was dragged into the plan, but makes no claim that Shojo could have succeeded by alternative methods.] Instead we are told that the paladins would reject the idea out of hand, and Shojo is arrested for trying to do something anyway. Shojo might be alive now. Likely a spot would have been reserved for him on his ship. But beyond that? We see no signs there would be more than cosmetic changes in the final result.

(Start of Darkness Spoilers)
What do you mean Xykon goes to Azure City and takes it out? If not for Redcloak, Xykon would still be wandering around swamps killing off whatever he found. Redcloak wasn't primarily motivated to crush the Sapphire Guard because they oppose the plan of The Dark One. He's motivated out of revenge because the Sapphire Guard killed almost his entire family. They had neutralized the previous Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, and proceeded to kill anything else green and fanged they found there regardless.

Also, what ultimately got Shojo killed was Miko, but she was spurred to action by seeing her Lord conspire, apparently against the Paladins, with people she had deemed to be evil. Of course she got a horribly distorted picture of it, but if Shojo had brought the Paladins in on it, working on such a goal may not have been such a big shock. Shojo believed such negotiations would not work because he was partly blindsighted by his chaotic alignment, probably seeing lawful types as stick-in-the-muds. He was (about to be) arrested because he went ahead and broke the oath/law, rather than the lawful approach of trying to amend it, as mentioned in Celia's closing arguments.

Ultimately I'm trying to say that Azure City's Politics, and how the players participated, were what lead to several critical weaknesses in the Azure City defence.

[SPoD]

W&XP Now I have yet to see my copy, which means I can't see the context here. But assuming it is a reasonable correct summation of the writer's thinking, he either doesn't know what he is talking about [& yes that happens] or he simply did a bad job of getting the message to us.
Where do we see evidence that Azure City created its own doom? We can look at Redcloak, but he is just an individual, and not the most important one. We can replace him with random lowly minion, and Xykon still comes to Azure City and takes it out. Redcloak is no doubt thrilled at his part in this, but he is just a part. Recall here that the Dark One was after the gates from their building. The aggressive defense on the face of it delayed any success by his forces, and so can't be blamed for the eventual fall.
Shojo would have still been alive if he had let the paladin in on his plans? Where do we get the least information this was a viable option? [Roy for example is furious that he was dragged into the plan, but makes no claim that Shojo could have succeeded by alternative methods.] Instead we are told that the paladins would reject the idea out of hand, and Shojo is arrested for trying to do something anyway. Shojo might be alive now. Likely a spot would have been reserved for him on his ship. But beyond that? We see no signs there would be more than cosmetic changes in the final result.

The statement in question isn't a "AC would not have fallen but for these events today" so much as it is, "Everything that AC has done wrong for the last 60 years led, directly or indirectly, to today." It includes, for example, that Shojo let the nobles have so much leash for so long, something that could not have been undone in a few days even if he had lived. Or the fact that the paladins and the Lord of the City were ever keeping secrets from one another in the first place. Or even the fact that Soon swore the oath to begin with and forced his paladins to keep it.

And as far as Redcloak, without him, Xykon never hears about the Gates at all. He wasn't actively researching ways to rule the world; he would have died of old age in a few years and never threatened AC. Redcloak not only informs him of the Gates, but gives him the idea to become a lich--all because of his thirst for revenge against the Azurites. I have trouble believing that "any minion" would do the exact same thing in the same circumstance. Without Xykon's presence, Azure City still stands.

You can't look at a chain of causes and effects and say, "Well, it could have happened some other way, therefore, the cause was not really the cause." That's like saying a murderer is not guilty because the victim could have died some other way. It DIDN'T happen any other way; it happened THIS way, and THIS way has a direct causal link to their actions when they wiped out goblin villages. Take away that, and we have no idea what may have happened--the old Bearer of the Crimson Mantle may never have been as effective as our Redcloak was in recruiting an Arcane spellcaster, and Azure City is still standing.

EDIT: Ninja'd by RMS, but he has a key point: What separates Redcloak from every previous Bearer of the Crimson Mantle is that for Redcloak, it was PERSONAL. He had motivation to destroy Azure City other than his god's commands, and that led him to push boundaries and go beyond all previous efforts. No other BotCM would have had the drive to sacrifice as much as Redcloak, because they did not see their family slaughtered over it.

[Warren Dew]

AC only had about 50 Clerics out of 300 or so who were above level 3

I'd attribute that to
Start of Darknessthe Sapphire Guard paladins keeping all the goblin XP to themselves!


Give Hinjo 40+ years as the City ruler - or, at least, let him take charge in less extreme a situation - and who knows, he could humble Shojo's reign for all we know.

Oh, no question. It probably won't take anywhere near 40 years for Hinjo to crush the nobles and establish a despotic rule of his version good and law. He's already shown he knows how to do this by using strongarm tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html) to impose his will on native leaders using out of town enforcers who will remain loyal to him due to their lack of local ties. I'm sure that given the time - and if he somehow manages to take a city back, and avoid losing any more chief bodyguards - he'll be able to establish a dictatorship far more secure than Shojo's rule was.

However, I read the original poster's question as a comparison of Shojo and Hinjo at the time, not at comparable ages. For all we know, Shojo might have done better when he was younger.


W&XP Now I have yet to see my copy, which means I can't see the context here.

War&XPs & Start of DarknessIt's in the context of a discussion of "karma", and I would agree that one could see a sense of karmic balance in Azure City being destroyed by an army under Redcloak, just as one could see karma in Shojo being killed by Miko. I don't read it as saying the outcome was inevitable. Indeed, had Azure City refrained from killing any goblins, we know from Start of Darkness that all their clerics and paladins and paladin ghosts would still have been 1st level, and Xykon might have destroyed the city solo long ago.

I do agree with you that an author can be mistaken about his own work, though I don't think it applies to that particular quote. My example would be how enamored the author seems in other commentary of Hinjo, who seems to me a perfect example of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

[LuisDantas]

You seem to dislike Hinjo just as much as I like him, Warren.

[Tempest Fennac]

Aren't there other ways of geting Exps., Warren? I know we don't have data for other Warthog's students*, but Julia must have gotten the Exps from somewhere (same for Ninja Waitress).

*Pompai appeared to be level 4, but he is also a lot older then Julia, and we don't know when he started studying at Warthogs.

[B.I.T.T.]

One question I can't help but wonder about -one that I hadn't thought of really until after I read a few replies to this thread - is the question of whether Hinjo's leadership will lead to better long term results. The fact is that Hinjo's lack of a deceptive mind is a bit of a hinderance currently, but will it lead to better results down the road?

Y'all's thoughts?

[Tempest Fennac]

I'm bias, but I'd say it would get better results later on (as Rich said, Shojo's lies led to his death).

[chiasaur11]

One question I can't help but wonder about -one that I hadn't thought of really until after I read a few replies to this thread - is the question of whether Hinjo's leadership will lead to better long term results. The fact is that Hinjo's lack of a deceptive mind is a bit of a hinderance currently, but will it lead to better results down the road?

Y'all's thoughts?

Probably, if he lives through the whole mess.

If the nobles know that outright treachery gets jail time, and any new houses are picked based partially on morals, the city should be better off.

Still, I'd figure he'd be dead by now without the Order helping him through the first teething pains.

[David Argall]

W&XP and SoD


The statement in question isn't a "AC would not have fallen but for these events today" so much as it is, "Everything that AC has done wrong for the last 60 years led, directly or indirectly, to today."
Now that amounts to the trite. Also to the wrong since it is at best highly questionable whether several of the actions in question were in fact wrong.



And as far as Redcloak, without him, Xykon never hears about the Gates at all.
Of course, if Redcloak had had his way, Xykon would have never heard of the gates. It's Right-eye who recruits him. And we have no reason to conclude that random goblin X encountering Xykon [and surviving] would not bring him to the Redcloak's attention.


Redcloak not only informs him of the Gates, but gives him the idea to become a lich--all because of his thirst for revenge against the Azurites.
At that point, the Azurites were small beer to Redcloak. He was devoted to the Plan, and he would not have had to even see an Azurite to succeed.


I have trouble believing that "any minion" would do the exact same thing in the same circumstance. Without Xykon's presence, Azure City still stands.
"Would"? Of course not. We see other minions trying other things. "Could", most definitely.


You can't look at a chain of causes and effects and say, "Well, it could have happened some other way, therefore, the cause was not really the cause."
Joe dies in an avalanche. A particular rock hit and killed him. We do not say he was killed by a falling rock, even tho he was. He was killed by the avalanche and the particular rock that did him in is not important.


That's like saying a murderer is not guilty because the victim could have died some other way.
It does not remove his guilt, it merely establishes he was not the controlling factor.
Sam gets killed by a mob. Now somebody in that mob gave the lethal blow, but it doesn't matter just who that was. If Max did, and we use a time machine to make sure Max can't, we find that Jose did the actual deed. And when we remove Jose, it turns out to be Walter... We can work real hard and remove the entire mob, and then it can turn out that an entirely new mob still takes Sam out.
In a court of law, we might well convict Max, Jose, and Walter of various degrees of murder. They don't escape blame. But they were no more than incidental causes of his death.


It DIDN'T happen any other way; it happened THIS way, and THIS way has a direct causal link to their actions when they wiped out goblin villages. Take away that, and we have no idea what may have happened--the old Bearer of the Crimson Mantle may never have been as effective as our Redcloak was in recruiting an Arcane spellcaster, and Azure City is still standing.
Or he might have proved much more effective and Azure City might have fallen long ago, or been destroyed by the whim of the now ruling Dark One.

We just do not talk this way. We say that the Redcloaks took Azure City despite the efforts of the paladins. They did not create the Redcloak. They persistently fought it, and presumably hampered it severely. The idea they were making it easier, not harder, to reach its goals just doesn't make much sense.



What separates Redcloak from every previous Bearer of the Crimson Mantle is that for Redcloak, it was PERSONAL. He had motivation to destroy Azure City other than his god's commands, and that led him to push boundaries and go beyond all previous efforts. No other BotCM would have had the drive to sacrifice as much as Redcloak, because they did not see their family slaughtered over it.
Now the problem here is that Redcloak doesn't seem to have taken it that personally. We don't really see him trying to drag Xykon to Azure City or anything. He is going after the gates, and he only comes after Azure City when it was the target of choice. One gate is over the sea, another requires beating up a lot of places, and Azure City only needs one. Now, Redcloak is thrilled that Azure City is the target, but his choice is not based on his personal desires, but on what is best for the plan.



What do you mean Xykon goes to Azure City and takes it out? If not for Redcloak, Xykon would still be wandering around swamps killing off whatever he found.
Actually that is "if not for Right-eye." Redcloak was happy to let him wander away.


Redcloak wasn't primarily motivated to crush the Sapphire Guard because they oppose the plan of The Dark One. He's motivated out of revenge because the Sapphire Guard killed almost his entire family.
Where do we really see this? Redcloak spends all his efforts to capture a gate far from Azure City. Azure City is his third target, and is selected then for sound strategic reasons. He does not say "Let's capture the Gate so we can mash Azure City." He's there for the sake of the Plan, and mashing Azure City would be a possible side effect. He likes the idea, but he is not ruled by it.



They had neutralized the previous Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, and proceeded to kill anything else green and fanged they found there regardless.

In other words, they had lessened the threat to the gate.


Shojo believed such negotiations would not work because he was partly blindsighted by his chaotic alignment, probably seeing lawful types as stick-in-the-muds.
And we have no information that he was wrong about that.

[LuisDantas]

The fact is that Hinjo's lack of a deceptive mind is a bit of a hinderance currently, but will it lead to better results down the road?

Certainly. I don't even agree that it is a hindrance now, to be blunt. Shojo chose to let the snakes thrive in his garden, the payoff was bound to happen sooner or later.

People give him way too much credit for what amounts to keeping his enemies confused.

[dps]

I don't see the logic there. They still would have needed a military leader to coordinate things on the field, and Shojo definitely wasn't that; it's unlikely Miko would have been chosen in such a role because nobody liked her. Secondly, Miko and Hinjo might well have been high enough level to make their saving throws against the Symbol of Insanity (just as O-Chul and a few others did), and that might have changed the situation in the throne room completely.

Azure City had an army separate from the Sapphire Guard. I'm sure that the army had its own leaders. Hinjo specifically stated that there was a reason that the Guard was in the throne room and not on the walls, and I see no reason to believe that he and Miko would not have been there as well.

[Caleniel]

The problem is that the best and most moral decision is usually determined by factors that are too numerous and complex to be codified into law. The law is a general baseline, but the 'right' decision varies so much, that often the law would instruct the making of a poor decision. In such a situation, the ruler is faced with either breaking the law, or hurting the people. Which is worse?

Hmm, which is worse, you ask? I can't really imagine anything much worse than a leader who thinks his _subjective_ evaluation of right and wrong is superior to the _objective_ evaluation which the legal system should strive towards. I do believe this is why a functional democracy seeks to seperate the legislative from the executive powers?

But this is a DnD world, of course. Good and Evil are quantifiable and concrete scales, and RL ideals don't apply very well. I just wanted to point out how a fantasy "good leader" might be scary RL tyrant.

[LuisDantas]

Hmm, which is worse, you ask? I can't really imagine anything much worse than a leader who thinks his _subjective_ evaluation of right and wrong is superior to the _objective_ evaluation which the legal system should strive towards. I do believe this is why a functional democracy seeks to seperate the legislative from the executive powers?

While I agree, people are known to seek refuge in "strong leaders", i.e. charismatic ones (or paranoia-inducing ones).

Besides, and more to the point, while there are hints of such a separation of powers in the OOtS world (Hinjo explained to Roy and Belkar that his uncle was acting outside the system and ought to be judged), we don't really have much conclusive evidence.


But this is a DnD world, of course. Good and Evil are quantifiable and concrete scales, and RL ideals don't apply very well. I just wanted to point out how a fantasy "good leader" might be scary RL tyrant.

All too common in RL, unfortunately.

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

Both are good at their own disciplines.

Hinjo is a capable sectionleader, but nothing more. He gained supreme command through heritage, rather than experience. There were more experienced commanders than Hinjo in the AC (O'Chul?), but Hinjo's birthright meant that they were subordinated to him. The nameless whitebeard general might have done it differently... I believe most high ranking officers of the AC outranked the blue haired boy before Shojo died...

for Shojo it was ruling a city and controlling egocentric aristocrats. Had Miko not killed him, Shojo might have convinced the nobles to stay... Or would he?

Shojo was not a war-ruler, he was a civil administrator with a cunning scheme to keep the peace and dim the ambitions of the aristocracy. his dementia gave them a sense of liberty and probably destroyed any ideas of responsibility their forebears might have had. As soon as the peace ended due to an invasion, his feigned dementia would be counterproductive. He'd have to be very cunning to convince the nobles to stay with "mister scruffy thinks y'all should stick sharp things in the yellow creatures"- arguments (or "mister scruffy knows that not fighting will cost you your dominions, for ever!")... I doubt that could have worked... If he'd shed his cloak of feigned dementia, the nobles would feel cheated and acted just as they did... however, Shojo being still alive, the whitebeard general would've been in command, rather than Hinjo, who I recall was just a guard captain before his ascension to the Azure Throne.

[Querzis]

Certainly. I don't even agree that it is a hindrance now, to be blunt. Shojo chose to let the snakes thrive in his garden, the payoff was bound to happen sooner or later.

You do realize that if he woudnt have confronted those snakes, the payoff would have happened a lot sooner with a lot more blood? We arent talking about a few evils loners, we are talking about powerfull noble. There was only two other alternative after the assassination attempt letting them win and seize the throne or a civil war (and I'm sure Hinjo would have took that alternative). And even if you let them seize the throne, they would have still fought with each other for it. Just look at the number of civilians and soldiers that got killed because of the conflict between Hinjo and Kubota and please remember that this is just one of the noble, not all of them fighting at the same time, and that the only reasons Hinjo is even still alive right now is because of the order of the stick! Shojo didnt freaking fake senility just to save his live but the entire city! Hinjo way of doing things, confronting the nobles, can have only one conclusion: lots of death! And thats whats happening right now!

Hinjo really gotta realize hes not just a paladin fighting evil, hes the ruler of a city and therefore gotta think about the safety of his people before his pride and wanting to punish the evil nobles.

Now back to the topic: Would Shojo have done better in AC war? While I definitly dont think he could have convinced the nobles to stay, they were only concerned about their safety, I have absolutely no doubt he could have, with enough bluff and a :«Mister Scruffy kinda wonder what the people will think of you if you dont leave a few soldiers to protect them», manage to get a few soldiers from them. There is also the fact that the only reason why Hinjo didnt resurect the wizard who could teleport is because he didnt knew about him while Shojo do. Which could have changed the entire battle. But thats just conjoncture. We have no real way of knowing what Shojo had planned in case the city was attacked. He could very well have allies, mercenaries, traps or schemes he planned to use Hinjo didnt knew about. Or he could very well have never expected it. So I dont think it really matter but I gotta add, he coudnt have done a worse job then Hinjo. As other people said, Hinjo is a good section leader, but he wasnt supposed to lead just a section. He should have been behind his troops with many messengers to give orders to everyone, he shoudnt have been fighting on his dog! After the general died, there was nobody to hold the troops and keep the breach and Hinjo should have been there to do that instead of going «nobody hurt my dog»! But either way, I'm sure the city would have fallen so once again, it doesnt really matter who lead during the war because Redcloak did a really good job and got superior force.

The aftermath is whats important here. Shojo would still have the nobles in check and there woudnt have been all these 'random' attack on ship where so many civilians died!

But Shojo also did a big mistake. And no I'm not talking about the fact that he kept secret from the Saphire Guard (though I do think he should have said it to Hinjo at least). Telling the truth to every paladin would have been a huge risk. It might have worked but it could have blown his whole cover too. No the biggest mistake of Shojo was being the ruler of AC and the ruler of the Saphire guard at the same time. It wasnt just his fault since, apparently, its always been like that since Soon. But its still mindblowingly stupid. Being a politician require doing lots of secrets as well as a really great bluff score. And Shojo was really good at being a politician. But being the ruler of the Saphire guard require you to be a paragon of Order and goodness. Shojo really wasnt good at the Order part.

I have absolutely no doubt that Hinjo his, was and will be a great leader for the Saphire guard.

I have absolutely no doubt that Shojo his, was and would have a great ruler for AC.

The real problem is that, for some dumb reasons, the same guy hold the two titles. And Shojo is a terrible leader for a paladin order while Hinjo think about fighting evil a lot more then about the safety of his people. Shojo should have given the leadership of the Saphire guard to Hinjo while still being the ruler of AC a long time ago.

[RMS Oceanic]

Point of order: The "Dumb Reason" was that Soon believed the Lord of Azure City should be in charge of both the City and the Gate, as both their fates are intertwined anyway.

[Rogue 7]

Look where General Hinjo was during the entire fight, on the wall where Captain Hinjo could function well. In effect all thru the fight, there was no Azure City commander. Each section of the wall was on its own. Hinjo was busy dealing with hobgoblins in his face instead of how his army was to be handled.
This is a rather common reaction to increased responsibility. Suddenly you are faced with decisions that you are not sure how to deal with. So you go back to making the less important decisions you do know how to handle. You avoid making any really disastrous decisions, but it is still a very bad management style. Those decisions still have to be made, and inaction is ultimately the wrong action.

Now the direct result of this is the breech. It is obvious down to the newest recruit that the enemy will be hitting the breech, and hitting it hard. This is routine and obvious tactics. So you move troops from other, less endangered, sections of the wall. Again, very basic tactics, which were not done. After the breech falls, we see great masses of defensive troops who had been just standing around instead of being sent to the breech. Hinjo only thinks to send troops there when his own section of the wall is finally no longer under serious attack. He has been thinking like a section commander, aware of the danger here, and ignoring the greater danger there. As a result, all those idle troops who have just stood around are slaughtered. Whether they could have stopped the attack can be debated. But they never got the chance, and had no chance once the breech was taken.


Where would he get these troops? Pull them from the secondary line of defense? All the troops on the wall were engaged with hobbos with scaling ladders. Hinjo only got reinforcements when those troops pulled back and retreated to focus on the breach. The fight was over the moment the death knight defeated V's giant soldiers, and no amount of tactical skill could make up for the difference in manpower and supernatural power that the attackers could bring to bear over the defenders.

Also take into account that Hinjo's primary concern was less defending the city and more protecting the gate. That's why all the high-level clerics and the entire sapphire guard were at the castle. Because protecting the keystone to ultimate destruction of the planes is a bit higher in priority than protecting one city that had a large proportion of its citizens evacuated.

With regards to Hinjo taking up a personal station on the wall rather than in the war room. No, from an overall tactical standpoint it's not the best of moves, but keep in mind several factors, disregarding Hinjo's personal convictions for the most part-
* He had with him his most powerful seer, who, I'm sure, would be able to receive and relay telepathic messages to and from the generals at other points on the wall. So his location itself is irrelevant to the defense's ability to send and receive messages.
* The morale of the troops is about as low as it can get. The symbol of their leader, risking life and limb to defend his beloved city and hacking away at hobgoblins left and right, is undoubtedly a powerful image. This sort of morale boost may have been necessary to ensure that the troops didn't simply bug out and run.
* His side was noticeably lacking in high-level characters, while the attackers had several nasty surprises for the human soldiers. They really needed his power to be able to hold off the attacks.

[Belkster11]

They both made mistakes, but I think Shojo basically signed Azure City's death certificate.

For one thing, he kept informatiion behind the backs of Paladins whom swore their very lives to protect him.

He knew that Miko was borderline insane. Her "My blades will be bathed in the blood of those responsible..." line before she went out to find the OoTS showed us that much.

He wanted the OotS to come to Azure City, right? What did he do? He made up some fake charges against them and unleashed Miko on them.

Miko feels her assignment is complete until...

she finds out that Shojo is gonna WORK for them.

She snaps and offs him, causing Hinjo, a wonderful general, but an inexperienced ruler to take over and WOW! He gets to fight Xykon and his entire army in a couple of days and not only that, but his army's morale is as low as it can get.

So now we have an inexperienced general trying to do what he can for Azure City...only he's fighting like a general, not a ruler. What happens? Azure City falls.

Shojo made a poor decision. By hiding things from his men (and women) and with the knowledge that he had a borderline insane Paladin under his wing...he was essentially living off of borrowed time.

But that's not to say Hinjo was in the clear. By puttng the MoJ on Belkar, he essentially prevented an ally (though phsycotic) from helping him.
Under normal circumstances, putting something like that on a blood-thirsty God of War like Belkar would be a good thing, but this was not normal circumstances.

He should have just left Belkar alone and said: "See that army invading? They're all yours. Enjoy." or something to that effect and let Belkar do what he does best.

Not that I'm saying Belkar could have single-handily saved Azure City, but he would have defintly helped a lot had he been given a chance to go onto another one of his unstoppable killing frenzy when the Hobgoblin army was entering the city rather than waiting for a Xykon-double skull to fire whenever it wanted.

[chiasaur11]

They both made mistakes, but I think Shojo basically signed Azure City's death certificate.

For one thing, he kept informatiion behind the backs of Paladins whom swore their very lives to protect him.

He knew that Miko was borderline insane. Her "My blades will be bathed in the blood of those responsible..." line before she went out to find the OoTS showed us that much.

He wanted the OotS to come to Azure City, right? What did he do? He made up some fake charges against them and unleashed Miko on them.

Miko feels her assignment is complete until...

she finds out that Shojo is gonna WORK for them.

She snaps and offs him, causing Hinjo, a wonderful general, but an inexperienced ruler to take over and WOW! He gets to fight Xykon and his entire army in a couple of days and not only that, but his army's morale is as low as it can get.

So now we have an inexperienced general trying to do what he can for Azure City...only he's fighting like a general, not a ruler. What happens? Azure City falls.

Shojo made a poor decision. By hiding things from his men (and women) and with the knowledge that he had a borderline insane Paladin under his wing...he was essentially living off of borrowed time.

But that's not to say Hinjo was in the clear. By puttng the MoJ on Belkar, he essentially prevented an ally (though phsycotic) from helping him.
Under normal circumstances, putting something like that on a blood-thirsty God of War like Belkar would be a good thing, but this was not normal circumstances.

He should have just left Belkar alone and said: "See that army invading? They're all yours. Enjoy." or something to that effect and let Belkar do what he does best.

Not that I'm saying Belkar could have single-handily saved Azure City, but he would have defintly helped a lot had he been given a chance to go onto another one of his unstoppable killing frenzy when the Hobgoblin army was entering the city rather than waiting for a Xykon-double skull to fire whenever it wanted.

On the other hand, Belkar mighta just let Hinjo die. The fact you have something he wants is a very good thing for keeping the Belkster from killing you.

[Belkster11]

It's been a while since I read the Battle of Azure City strips, but why exactly would Hinjo's not giving Belkster the MoJ would result in Hinjo's death?

Belkar didn't want to kill Hinjo (Though he probably would've after the battle). He wanted to kill the hobgoblins.

[Theodoriph]

They both made mistakes, but I think Shojo basically signed Azure City's death certificate.

For one thing, he kept informatiion behind the backs of Paladins whom swore their very lives to protect him.

He knew that Miko was borderline insane. Her "My blades will be bathed in the blood of those responsible..." line before she went out to find the OoTS showed us that much.

He wanted the OotS to come to Azure City, right? What did he do? He made up some fake charges against them and unleashed Miko on them.

Miko feels her assignment is complete until...

she finds out that Shojo is gonna WORK for them.

She snaps and offs him, causing Hinjo, a wonderful general, but an inexperienced ruler to take over and WOW! He gets to fight Xykon and his entire army in a couple of days and not only that, but his army's morale is as low as it can get.

So now we have an inexperienced general trying to do what he can for Azure City...only he's fighting like a general, not a ruler. What happens? Azure City falls.

Shojo made a poor decision. By hiding things from his men (and women) and with the knowledge that he had a borderline insane Paladin under his wing...he was essentially living off of borrowed time.

But that's not to say Hinjo was in the clear. By puttng the MoJ on Belkar, he essentially prevented an ally (though phsycotic) from helping him.
Under normal circumstances, putting something like that on a blood-thirsty God of War like Belkar would be a good thing, but this was not normal circumstances.

He should have just left Belkar alone and said: "See that army invading? They're all yours. Enjoy." or something to that effect and let Belkar do what he does best.

Not that I'm saying Belkar could have single-handily saved Azure City, but he would have defintly helped a lot had he been given a chance to go onto another one of his unstoppable killing frenzy when the Hobgoblin army was entering the city rather than waiting for a Xykon-double skull to fire whenever it wanted.




Ummm, Shojo didn't know Miko was insane. You did a very poor job of explaining your point. There is nothing insane about saying "My blades will be bathed in the blood of those responsible..." It's something any reasonable person in that situation would say. In fact, in many medieval scenarios, people made oaths like that. Actually, I'm fairly certain that in today's militaries, lines like that are still uttered (probably more along the lines of "Let's go kill the *************". It's not insane. Similar lines are also used in sports.

If Shojo hadn't hidden certain facts from the paladins, the city likely would have been worse off by the time Xykon arrived. They would not have approved of his ways of doing things, regardless of that fact that they were effective and efficient and would have hindered and slowed him down. And of course, he likely would have been assassinated.

[Kish]

It's been a while since I read the Battle of Azure City strips, but why exactly would Hinjo's not giving Belkster the MoJ would result in Hinjo's death?

Belkar didn't want to kill Hinjo (Though he probably would've after the battle). He wanted to kill the hobgoblins.
He would have had no reason to stop the assassin from killing Hinjo.

[chiasaur11]

It's been a while since I read the Battle of Azure City strips, but why exactly would Hinjo's not giving Belkster the MoJ would result in Hinjo's death?

Belkar didn't want to kill Hinjo (Though he probably would've after the battle). He wanted to kill the hobgoblins.

Remember that one thief? The guy with the poison arrow?

The only reason Belkar killed him rather than taking the money? Hinjo could remove the mark.

[Enlong]

*Pompai appeared to be level 4, but he is also a lot older then Julia, and we don't know when he started studying at Warthogs.

He's a half-elf, so he learns magic slower then humans do. If you think about it, it makes sense...

I'm lying, of course :smallbiggrin:.

Also, can we consider some other options here? I'm a big supporter of Shinjo and Hojo, myself.

[David Argall]

Where would he get these troops?
Look at all the pictures showing behind the wall. They are just full of troops. Line after line of them just standing there until the breech was taken and they could be slaughtered in formation.



The fight was over the moment the death knight defeated V's giant soldiers, and no amount of tactical skill could make up for the difference in manpower and supernatural power that the attackers could bring to bear over the defenders.
The death knight was long gone by then and the ordinary troops did throw back the first attack. The survivors were just too few and too played out to hold out, a situation that rapidly changes when you have fresh troops ready to take their place.
The difference in manpower is hardly a difference at all at a breech. The attacker loses way more troops than the defender. It is better than just trying to go over the wall of course, but a breech is a death trap for the attacker and losses are huge. Sometimes the defender wins, sometimes not, but compared to effectively leaving the breech undefended, the odds are way better if you have enough troops to halt that initial charge.


Also take into account that Hinjo's primary concern was less defending the city and more protecting the gate.
We have no reason to think Shojo would have made different decisions on this point. Nor has Hinjo been charged [yet-this was also likely a mistake] with this as a blunder.



With regards to Hinjo taking up a personal station on the wall rather than in the war room. No, from an overall tactical standpoint it's not the best of moves, but keep in mind several factors, disregarding Hinjo's personal convictions for the most part-
* He had with him his most powerful seer, who, I'm sure, would be able to receive and relay telepathic messages to and from the generals at other points on the wall. So his location itself is irrelevant to the defense's ability to send and receive messages.
We have no sign that she has this ability, nor that any such system was in place. More to the point, we can see why it works poorly at best. Hinjo constantly had hobgoblins in his face. He didn't have time to consult his seer, nor to send out messages. And had the seer lived that long, she too would have been too harassed by hobgoblins to do much seering.
Both belong well back of the action.


* The morale of the troops is about as low as it can get. The symbol of their leader, risking life and limb to defend his beloved city and hacking away at hobgoblins left and right, is undoubtedly a powerful image. This sort of morale boost may have been necessary to ensure that the troops didn't simply bug out and run.
It might be a powerful image for one section of the wall. The others simply never get to see him and can't be inspired. And we can turn this argument around. The place where that inspiration is most obviously needed is at the breech. So if he could inspire, that is where he should have been. [Bringing a thousand re-inforcements would be even more inspiring.] Instead he was "inspiring" troops that Redcloak tells us were going to stop the attack anyway.


* His side was noticeably lacking in high-level characters, while the attackers had several nasty surprises for the human soldiers. They really needed his power to be able to hold off the attacks.
Haley disposes of that argument.
Hinjo: You can still kill hundreds of them.
Haley: Too bad there are thousands.
Hinjo's a great fighter, but he just can't make that much of a contribution on the front line. [And he gets beat up pretty bad when he tries it at the ship.] By contrast, the simple decision of moving a thousand of the reserve to the breech would have killed a minimum of 2000 of the attackers, who might not have even managed to break thru.

And again, the danger was obviously at the breech, while Hinjo was playing with the lesser threat. As a fighter too, he was most needed at the breech, so we still have him neglecting the breech.

[Tempest Fennac]

I know Shojo claimed that he had been worried about Miko's instability just before she killed him. If this wasn't just a bluff, it suggests that he knew she was boarderline insane (the fact that he decided not to do anything about it while he could is worrying). Regarding the Seer, the fact that she appeared to be a level 11 (at least) Wizard meant she could have been useful in the battle assuming she wasn't killed (we don't have any information on her barred scholls, but I'm assuming she was a Diviner). To be honest, I wouldn't have put it past Belkar to possibly switch sides during the battle if the MoJ had been removed considering how much of a liability he is.

[Red XIV]

Point of order: The "Dumb Reason" was that Soon believed the Lord of Azure City should be in charge of both the City and the Gate, as both their fates are intertwined anyway.
Which was quite ill-conceived on Soon's part. Having the same person as Lord of Azure City and Commander of the Sapphire Guard might have seemed logical to him. And it's undeniable that if the city falls so does the Gate, and vice versa. But the fact remains that what's best for Azure City isn't necessarily going to be what's best for defending the Gate. Putting the same person in charge of both can lead to conflicts of interest, which is exactly what happened. Shojo had to go behind the backs of his own paladins just to do his job as Lord.

[Rogue 7]

Look at all the pictures showing behind the wall. They are just full of troops. Line after line of them just standing there until the breech was taken and they could be slaughtered in formation.


The death knight was long gone by then and the ordinary troops did throw back the first attack. The survivors were just too few and too played out to hold out, a situation that rapidly changes when you have fresh troops ready to take their place.

A lot of that I'd attribute to the fact that something like two-thirds of them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html) up and deserted. If those deserters had stayed and held for the ten minutes they needed, it'd have been a more even fight.



The difference in manpower is hardly a difference at all at a breech. The attacker loses way more troops than the defender. It is better than just trying to go over the wall of course, but a breech is a death trap for the attacker and losses are huge. Sometimes the defender wins, sometimes not, but compared to effectively leaving the breech undefended, the odds are way better if you have enough troops to halt that initial charge.

Again, two-thirds of the troops deserted, and they had just lost their only spellcaster. It would have been defended if those troops hadn't bugged out.

Take a look at Comic 2, Panel 2 of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html) comic. Where are your reinforcements? There's a token force protecting the gate (which is something of a blunder, they need walls), and a larger force in the corner of the walls, presumably that had been on the walls and was now moving towards the breach.



We have no reason to think Shojo would have made different decisions on this point. Nor has Hinjo been charged [yet-this was also likely a mistake] with this as a blunder.

Based on Xykon's activity (flying over the walls and showing up. Redcloak said originally that his plan had been to summon up a few big nasties and zombify the defenders, then attack from behind), I'd say that that was pretty much the correct decision. Azure City would have lost a lot faster if the Sapphire Guard hadn't been in the throne room.



We have no sign that she has this ability, nor that any such system was in place. More to the point, we can see why it works poorly at best. Hinjo constantly had hobgoblins in his face. He didn't have time to consult his seer, nor to send out messages. And had the seer lived that long, she too would have been too harassed by hobgoblins to do much seering.
Both belong well back of the action.

True enough, there's no evidence. But you seem to be pulling reinforcements out of thin air. Why can' I bring an intangible system that doesn't need to be focused upon to be effective?



It might be a powerful image for one section of the wall. The others simply never get to see him and can't be inspired. And we can turn this argument around. The place where that inspiration is most obviously needed is at the breech. So if he could inspire, that is where he should have been. [Bringing a thousand re-inforcements would be even more inspiring.] Instead he was "inspiring" troops that Redcloak tells us were going to stop the attack anyway.

I don't know if seeing is required. Perhaps simply knowing that their leader is out there risking life and limb, fighting as one of them, could have been enough. And where in the nine hells did these "thousand reinforcements" come from? Hinjo started the fight in a bad position, and there wasn't much he could do to get to where he needed to be in time.



Haley disposes of that argument.
Hinjo: You can still kill hundreds of them.
Haley: Too bad there are thousands.
Hinjo's a great fighter, but he just can't make that much of a contribution on the front line. [And he gets beat up pretty bad when he tries it at the ship.] By contrast, the simple decision of moving a thousand of the reserve to the breech would have killed a minimum of 2000 of the attackers, who might not have even managed to break thru.

And again, the danger was obviously at the breech, while Hinjo was playing with the lesser threat. As a fighter too, he was most needed at the breech, so we still have him neglecting the breech.
I'm still asking where the reserves are. When the attackers are coming up the ladders ten at a time, being able to kill hundreds is pretty damn effective.


Let's look at Hinjo's overall situation. His opponent outnumbers him three to one, possibly more, in raw swords alone. That's before the daimyo and their troops (presumably a substantial number, and likely higher quality than the basic troops) leave. He's facing an epic-level lich and a near-epic level cleric, and does not have forces anywhere near their level. The order simply doesn't compare. His opponents can simply stand their troops back up as zombies after they die. He has the added obligation to protect a foundation block of the stability of the universe in addition to the city itself. The leader of the city has just been killed and Hinjo has come to power in very suspicious circumstances. Morale is terrible.

The opening round features a large group of elementals smashing through his walls, without any response possible from the defenders that would have saved the walls. After this, Vaarsuvius devises a plan that allows the wall to be adequately defended and appearing to hold, with a minimal amount of troops- up until the supernatural forces attacked. For all intents and purposes, the breach appears secure. Then the death knight shows up and rips through the lines, allowing the ghouls to swarm, paralyze, and kill the soldiers. Presumably, a large chunk of the forces behind the wall did show up...and died horribly. Now, once the breach is held, and reinforcements are on the way, all of a sudden at least half (I'd estimate higher) of the troops suddenly just run away. Their one spellcaster is out of spells. The reinforcements were working on the assumption that the defenders of the breach could hold for a short time period. An epic-level lich is flying over their defenses and attacking the forces inside the castle. It wouldn't matter if Hinjo was on the wall, in the castle, or in the bathtub dancing around to the Backstreet Boys- he was going to lose any way you slice it. I will concede that he could have made a more effective defense away from the wall. But that's not the way he works. Simple fact, and a mistake, but it didn't cost him the battle- that was lost before he ever swung his katana.

[Warren Dew]

Again, two-thirds of the troops deserted, and they had just lost their only spellcaster. It would have been defended if those troops hadn't bugged out.

This only supports David's point. The troops deserted because there was no real leader to be seen. If Hinjo had been doing his job, he would have been there, and the troops would not have deserted.

[ShellBullet]

This only supports David's point. The troops deserted because there was no real leader to be seen. If Hinjo had been doing his job, he would have been there, and the troops would not have deserted.

No it doesn't. Troops deserted, because they didn't want to fight a war while nobles like Kubota are sipping their tea on their yacht. On other hand, if Hinjo had tried to act like general commanding troops from safe place , he would have been seen different from other nobles by eyes of commoners.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html

[Rogue 7]

This only supports David's point. The troops deserted because there was no real leader to be seen. If Hinjo had been doing his job, he would have been there, and the troops would not have deserted.

David's point was that Hinjo shouldn't have been fighting at all. He should have been in the castle, overseeing it all.

[Tempest Fennac]

Would he have had enough Sending scrolls to give out orders effectively there, though? Cpnsidering his experience level in regards to leadership, he was probably more useful on the frontline.

[David Argall]

A lot of that I'd attribute to the fact that something like two-thirds of them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html) up and deserted. If those deserters had stayed and held for the ten minutes they needed, it'd have been a more even fight.
True, but irrelevant. The possibility of desertion is something Hinjo was supposed to foresee. And it is one more reason you send the support 10 minutes earlier, so their spirits are bucked up in advance



Take a look at Comic 2, Panel 2 of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html) comic. Where are your reinforcements? There's a token force protecting the gate (which is something of a blunder, they need walls), and a larger force in the corner of the walls, presumably that had been on the walls and was now moving towards the breach.
The force in the corner is in the direction away from the breach. It is the remains of the force that used to be behind the heros.

Let us take a look at the full pictures...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html

The area behind the wall is just jammed with troops.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html

Now the area behind the breach show open space. The troops defending this area have suffered losses and the reserves have not been replaced. But there are still loads of reserves behind the rest of the wall. These reserves are obviously easy to move to the breach, but are not doing so.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html

Now the weakened force at the breach are unable to hold and the reserves are taken in the flank and are being eaten up.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html

And now only a few scattered reserves are left.

You see how easy it would be to move some of those reserves to the breach about 445? Where they would replace/buck up those deserters?



Based on Xykon's activity (flying over the walls and showing up. Redcloak said originally that his plan had been to summon up a few big nasties and zombify the defenders, then attack from behind), I'd say that that was pretty much the correct decision. Azure City would have lost a lot faster if the Sapphire Guard hadn't been in the throne room.
Not clear and not relevant to our discussion. Recall that we are assuming that Soon was more than a match for Xykon. If so, the Sapphire Guard would have done more by keeping Redcloak away. But as already noted, we have no major reason to assume Shojo would have done differently.



you seem to be pulling reinforcements out of thin air.
Again, see 422, 426, and 450. Loads of visible reinforcements.


I don't know if seeing is required. Perhaps simply knowing that their leader is out there risking life and limb, fighting as one of them, could have been enough.
Obviously speculative, and in general rejected by every military authority as adequate compensation.


Hinjo started the fight in a bad position, and there wasn't much he could do to get to where he needed to be in time.
A-The general was able to get there in far less time.
B-The total distance we are talking about is far less than a mile, and is covered by V very easily. It's not a matter of unable, unless we say he was in a bad position in the first place, which also means he blundered.



I'm still asking where the reserves are.
422, 426, 450.



Let's look at Hinjo's overall situation.
It wouldn't matter if Hinjo was on the wall, in the castle, or in the bathtub dancing around to the Backstreet Boys- he was going to lose any way you slice it. I will concede that he could have made a more effective defense away from the wall. But that's not the way he works. Simple fact, and a mistake, but it didn't cost him the battle- that was lost before he ever swung his katana.
Now we can debate if a honest running of the siege would have been successful or not [The strip tells us there is at least a substantial chance the defenders would win.], but that is not the subject before us. It is whether Shojo or Hinjo would have been the better leader here. So your conceding he was better off away from the wall [which of course is where Shojo would have been] is pretty much agreeing that Hinjo was the inferior leader.



Would he have had enough Sending scrolls to give out orders effectively there, though?
Messengers can do an adequate job on foot.


Cpnsidering his experience level in regards to leadership, he was probably more useful on the frontline.
Since we have already identified one simple decision that would have been obvious from the rear and would have increased the value of the defense by an easy thousand soldiers, the mere one hundred he was worth on the front line is trivial.

[LuisDantas]

You do realize that if he woudnt have confronted those snakes, the payoff would have happened a lot sooner with a lot more blood?

Maybe so. But it sure doesn't look that way to me.


We arent talking about a few evils loners, we are talking about powerfull noble. There was only two other alternative after the assassination attempt letting them win and seize the throne or a civil war (and I'm sure Hinjo would have took that alternative). And even if you let them seize the throne, they would have still fought with each other for it. Just look at the number of civilians and soldiers that got killed because of the conflict between Hinjo and Kubota and please remember that this is just one of the noble, not all of them fighting at the same time, and that the only reasons Hinjo is even still alive right now is because of the order of the stick! Shojo didnt freaking fake senility just to save his live but the entire city! Hinjo way of doing things, confronting the nobles, can have only one conclusion: lots of death! And thats whats happening right now!

You're assuming that Shojo's decisions did not make the problem grow, so I don't see how we can reach an agreement here.

Shojo had at least a few years to think of ways of avoiding this very confrontation that is happening now. Either he didn't try, or he failed. It is simply not fair to blame Hinjo for a failure that is clearly not his.


Hinjo really gotta realize hes not just a paladin fighting evil, hes the ruler of a city and therefore gotta think about the safety of his people before his pride and wanting to punish the evil nobles.

The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they complement each other quite naturally.


Now back to the topic: Would Shojo have done better in AC war? While I definitly dont think he could have convinced the nobles to stay, they were only concerned about their safety, I have absolutely no doubt he could have, with enough bluff and a :«Mister Scruffy kinda wonder what the people will think of you if you dont leave a few soldiers to protect them», manage to get a few soldiers from them.

Well, I kinda doubt many soldiers would accept orders from a cat by way of his senile owner all that cavalierly. It is one thing to make O-Chul clean Scruffy's sandbox, it is quite another to ask soldiers to risk their lives on that basis. That could well make the military revolt against him.


There is also the fact that the only reason why Hinjo didnt resurect the wizard who could teleport is because he didnt knew about him while Shojo do.

Again, a failure from Shojo, not Hinjo.


Which could have changed the entire battle. But thats just conjoncture. We have no real way of knowing what Shojo had planned in case the city was attacked. He could very well have allies, mercenaries, traps or schemes he planned to use Hinjo didnt knew about.

Whatever he had, it wasn't significant enough to convince him to return and face probable imprisonment when Raise Dead was attempted on him.

[Knaight]

Furthermore Shojo probably could have kept the nobles around somehow, just by seniority, which removes the complaint about the nobles, and keeps the troops, one of them even explicitly stated that if Shojo was still around that sort of stuff wouldn't have happened, and the breach wouldn't have been as much of a problem.

[CasESenSITItiVE]

To be fair, apart from keeping the nobles in line, Shojo wasn't that great (eg: AC only had about 50 Clerics out of 300 or so who were above level 3, which suggests a worrying lack of training considering how Julia is level 3 at the age of 16). Also, the city's walls seemed to lack defences (the catapults and coconut oil weren't that effective).

is this the actual argument for the case that the army was poorly trained? i've heard this claimed many times but no one actually explained it...

i don't think that's really the case. many people, when thinking of levels in d&d, think of it from the players eyes, and thus think up to 5 is low, 10 is mid level, 15 up is high. but for npcs, at least in this universe, it is merely the case that 5th level is rather high.

[Querzis]

Maybe so. But it sure doesn't look that way to me.

...I honestly dont know how it can NOT look that way to you. Ten seconds after Hinjo became king a dozens ninja from different nobles house tried to kill him. And when the trolls attack Hinjo, two civilians ships are destroyed because of it. Are you reading the same comic as me? Hinjo would have already lost to Kubota and died without the order and thats just ONE noble.


You're assuming that Shojo's decisions did not make the problem grow, so I don't see how we can reach an agreement here

Shojo had at least a few years to think of ways of avoiding this very confrontation that is happening now. Either he didn't try, or he failed. It is simply not fair to blame Hinjo for a failure that is clearly not his.

Once again I just dont know if you are reading the same comic as me. Like what, give another alternative then confrontation. I would have thought seeing Kubota for about 50 comics would have been more then enough for you to realize its impossible to talk him out of it.


The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they complement each other quite naturally.

Once again just go look at the number of civilians and soldiers who died onscreen. A paladin gotta hunt evil. A ruler just start to hunt evil if he want his city to be destroyed in a matter of weeks. Hinjo 'allies' didnt refuse to help him for nothing, they refused to help him because its really dumb to go fight an evil army that would undoubtly go destroy the rest of your city if they win the battle.

A ruler gotta protect his people from evil. You know whats the best way of making sure evil will destroy your people? Attacking evil first!


Well, I kinda doubt many soldiers would accept orders from a cat by way of his senile owner all that cavalierly. It is one thing to make O-Chul clean Scruffy's sandbox, it is quite another to ask soldiers to risk their lives on that basis. That could well make the military revolt against him.

Real life history and fiction are full of very succesfull insane rulers. Nobody ever revolted just for that as long as they keep things running, which Shojo did. This is what the soldiers though about Shojo and Hinjo:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html

Having a declining authority and not being able to control his nobles though is, both in real life and in the comic, a pretty good basis for revolt and desertion. And for all the people who said Hinjo was raising morale by fighting himself, well no. In fact he did the opposite. «I'm not dying so Shojo nephew can play heroic knight who goes down fighting the good fight». They dont even call him Hinjo, just Shojo nephew!


Again, a failure from Shojo, not Hinjo.

...How so? Now this aint Hinjo fault at all. But I dont see how its Shojo fault either. Or are you saying its Shojo fault is his wizard failed his teleportation and got eaten by a bird?


Whatever he had, it wasn't significant enough to convince him to return and face probable imprisonment when Raise Dead was attempted on him.

Finally a good argument in your post. Yes, I'm guessing this means he had nothing planned in case of invasion. That or he coudnt resurect for some reason.

By the way, you gotta realize I'm not on Shojo side here, I'm on both side. Shojo is a magnificient ruler and Hinjo is almost the perfect paladins. Its just that they both were cast into roles which obviously doesnt fit them.

[Tempest Fennac]

That is one way of looking at it, CasESenSITItiVE. My arguements were based around Julia and the trainee Ninja's levels (the Ninja waitress could have been higher then level 2 for all we knew about her). How long would messagers on foot take? Also, their instructions could become irrelevant or need clarification, which would cause problems.

[LuisDantas]

Querzis, the comic couldn't be much more clear in that Hinjo is reaping the seeds of Shojo's unwise managament. You just can't fault Hinjo for the political decisions that were not his to make, and which made the noble houses at one time powerful yet unreliable and distrustful of the central power.

Even calling Hinjo "Shojo's nephew" is, contrary to what you seem to believe, an indirect criticism of Shojo as opposed to a criticism of Hinjo himself. "Gee, Shojo was insane and manipulative. Hinjo seems alright, but he is still Shojo's nephew, so..."

Got the picture?

[Warren Dew]

Let us take a look at the full pictures...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html

The area behind the wall is just jammed with troops.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html

Now the area behind the breach show open space. The troops defending this area have suffered losses and the reserves have not been replaced. But there are still loads of reserves behind the rest of the wall. These reserves are obviously easy to move to the breach, but are not doing so.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html

Now the weakened force at the breach are unable to hold and the reserves are taken in the flank and are being eaten up.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html

And now only a few scattered reserves are left.

You see how easy it would be to move some of those reserves to the breach about 445? Where they would replace/buck up those deserters?

Really nice analysis, David - thanks. I've been wondering where the idea came from that the defenders had a chance since the battle seemed so one sided to me. You're right, though: commitment of those reserves to the breach when Redcloak charged would have made it much more difficult for him to break through. I guess I wasn't paying enough attention to the distribution of forces in 450.

The situation at the breach would have been obvious from the castle walls, and reinforcement easy to do: the defenders only have to cover a short distance while the attackers are charging from outside normal catapult range. It seems that Hinjo's management of the defense was criminally incompetent.

[Knaight]

Shojo kept everything under control, and the reason he had to feign insanity was because of how Soon had left the city to him. Both Shojo and Hinjo had to deal with the problems Soon caused.

[MReav]

Soon wasn't the leader of Azure City. Shojo's father was.

Also, Shojo didn't start feigning insanity till only a few years ago. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html

Soon died at least 47 years ago (and in all likely more).
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

Now, Shojo's father...

[LuisDantas]

The situation at the breach would have been obvious from the castle walls, and reinforcement easy to do: the defenders only have to cover a short distance while the attackers are charging from outside normal catapult range. It seems that Hinjo's management of the defense was criminally incompetent.

Point taken (albeit begrudgingly so). A good example of the detail the Giant employs, too.

[arkwei]

I just found something new.

In comic 533 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0533.html), there are two other resistance groups who are fighting on the issue of Hinjo's legitimacy as the ruler.

However, upon seeing the pet of Shojo, they immediately ceased fighting, talked to each other like comrades, and pledged loyalty to someone they didn't even know.

This only show how good Shojo had been a ruler; loyalty beyond death, and loyalty in a trying time.

[David Argall]

Well, not really. While it seems odd that so much importance was attached to Shojo's cat, it's a common enough case, at least in fiction, that a symbol of legitimate rule made the possessor the legitimate ruler.
Persia has a tale of when seven nobles took over the government, they decided while of them would rule by a contest of which of their horses would neigh first. The winner fixed the contest by the way.]

[Fanatic-Templar]

Shojo dealt with trouble by not dealing with it. His attempt at actually confronting a situation was sending Miko to arrest the Order of the Stick, thereby antagonising the very people he sought to involve in a high secrecy top priority assignment. And setting the seeds for his own death by overzealous paladin.

I have seen no evidence that he was in any way capable of dealing with this invasion.

[pjackson]

The problem is that the best and most moral decision is usually determined by factors that are too numerous and complex to be codified into law. The law is a general baseline, but the 'right' decision varies so much, that often the law would instruct the making of a poor decision. In such a situation, the ruler is faced with either breaking the law, or hurting the people. Which is worse?

Paladins are not required to follow bad laws. They are free to choose not to hurt the people as being more Good.

[pjackson]

for npcs, at least in this universe, it is merely the case that 5th level is rather high.

On WotC's site somewhere is an article about how they set the values for skills like jumping such that world record performances were possible at 5th level (with maxed ranks and feats). Fifth was supposed to be about as high as the best normal people can get. Beyond fifth was the territory of fantastic heroes and villains.
3.5 simplified the rules and broke the connection but it does give an idea of the intent of the designers.

[Tempest Fennac]

I never honestly knew that to be honest (also, I remember someone else mentioning that NPCs who don't adventure could get Exps. ffrom their everyday lives, with the result supposedly being that an average humanwould end up at level 13 or so by the time they reached Venerable*).

Something I forgot to mention about the Battle for AC regarding Hinjo's leadership is why they put most of the more powerful casters out of the way so that they couldn't do anything during the battle (apart from job to Tsukiko). I would have thought that putting them on the frontline would have been the best use for them dispite their vurnerability (especially as far as the High Priest, who was apparently hanging around doing noting until RC entered the courtyard, was concerned). Also, unless they were all Cloistered lerics, I don't see why they weren't given armour.

* Unfortunately the person who mentioned that didn't list any sources, unless I forgot what they were.