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View Full Version : The Knight a better Samurai than the CW Samurai?



Frosty
2008-09-15, 10:58 PM
I got a player who is looking to play a Yojimbo-type (a personal bodyguard sworn to defend a charge) character. He has been looking at the Samurai class, and I have been actively seeking to discourage him from doing that. Yes I know I know, I should give my players freedom of choice, but I just don't want to see him be disappointed when his Katana/Shortshort dual-wielding character goes up to the Pit Fiend, tries to trade blows, and dies.

I talked to him about adopting some Tome of Battle stuff, but that wasn't exactly the flavor he was looking for, so I researched other possible classes. The first thing that came to mind was the Fighter class, which arguably could do a samurai/protector better than than the CW samurai. He could maybe take a lot of levels of Fighter then go into Kensai. The flavor certainly fit, but it didn't quite have the "bodyguard" feel.

Then, I remembered the Knight class. Looking over its abilities, it has a lot of what a yojimbo would have. He can take some damage for his lord, issue challenges so he can do battle instead of his lord, and also make it hard for enemies to move arond him. Fluff-wise, the code of conduct needs almost no re-flavoring. It could be dumped straight into Bushido lore and no one would notice! I figure that if I make the Knight's Challenges per encounter instead of day, give him a fighter bonus feat every 4 levels or so, and advise him to take feats like Ancestral Weapon and Avenging Strike (it's Kiai smite as a Feat! Thank you Tome of Battle feats.), the Knight would make a better Samurai than the CW Samurai. Heck, with the Daunting Challenge use of the Knight's Challenge, you can even INTIMIDATE your enemies better than a Samurai could (it's mass staredown as a swift action!!!)

What do people think? Good idea to use the Knight and tack on Samurai flavor? The story is that the character is Hellbred, and he's part of the level 15 group going into Baator to do some serious good, as well as fulfilling a personal oath. He promised to protect someone. He failed once when they kidnapped her. He won't fail her again.

Proven_Paradox
2008-09-15, 11:06 PM
Knight is one of the few non-ToB melee classes I still consider to be viable without much adjustment (the others being barbarian and... uh... I'll get back to you on that). I'm not sure I'd give the fighter bonus feats--and I think I'd give them every 5 levels if I did--but making challenges /encounter instead of /day makes perfect sense. I'd definately try to push the player this way. It suits samurai quite well, especially the Yojimbo type.

However, if he's absolutely set on CWar samurai... You have to let people make their own mistakes sometimes, you know?

Keld Denar
2008-09-15, 11:21 PM
If you can get your hands on the ol' 3.0 Sword and Fist book, there was a PrC in there called Devoted Defender. It had some cool mechanics such as swapping position with your charge to take a hit, or gaining bonuses if someone hit your charge, or even shielding your charge from area attacks. Was kind of cool. I don't think much in the mechanics changed that you couldn't easily take levels of it in a 3.5 game. I normally don't advocate recommending 3.0 material in a 3.5 game, but this one wasn't reprinted and works just fine as it stands, and isn't completely retarded (see Forsaker).

The hardest part is gonna be getting a hold of a copy of Sword and Fist...WWTPBD?

Frosty
2008-09-15, 11:45 PM
Knight is one of the few non-ToB melee classes I still consider to be viable without much adjustment (the others being barbarian and... uh... I'll get back to you on that). I'm not sure I'd give the fighter bonus feats--and I think I'd give them every 5 levels if I did--but making challenges /encounter instead of /day makes perfect sense. I'd definately try to push the player this way. It suits samurai quite well, especially the Yojimbo type.

However, if he's absolutely set on CWar samurai... You have to let people make their own mistakes sometimes, you know?
I never saw barbarian as being too much better than the Fitah to be honest. But maybe I just don't know any good barbarian builds. If the player insists on CW Samurai, how can he build it to be effective?

lussmanj: Where would I find Sword and Fist and what is WWTPBD?

monty
2008-09-15, 11:49 PM
Honestly, a wizard would probably make a better samurai than a samurai. Take a feat for proficiency in katana, buff up, and slash away.

Frosty
2008-09-15, 11:52 PM
Honestly, a wizard would probably make a better samurai than a samurai. Take a feat for proficiency in katana, buff up, and slash away.

Come now, it can't be *that* bad...

In any case, does anyone know how long Daunting Challenge lasts? It says enemies are Shaken, but doesn't specify duration. I'm guessing either until they're out of line of sight to the Knight, or until the end of the encounter

Swordguy
2008-09-15, 11:54 PM
Knight is a better Yojimbo than the CW Samurai. The CW Samurai is not meant to be a Yojimbo.

Therefore, yes - use the Knight class and refluff it. If he's after a "protector of others" class, that's a darn good bet.

Kizara
2008-09-15, 11:55 PM
Come now, it can't be *that* bad...

In any case, does anyone know how long Daunting Challenge lasts? It says enemies are Shaken, but doesn't specify duration. I'm guessing either until they're out of line of sight to the Knight, or until the end of the encounter

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable ruling to me.

Frosty
2008-09-16, 12:08 AM
Knight is a better Yojimbo than the CW Samurai. The CW Samurai is not meant to be a Yojimbo.

Therefore, yes - use the Knight class and refluff it. If he's after a "protector of others" class, that's a darn good bet.

What was the CW Samurai meant for then? I haven't really seen anybody actualy play one, so I can't comment on its supposed role.

I'm trying to figure out how many Knight's challenges the player should get per encounter. Perhaps 1/4 Knight levels + Charisma bonus?

Swordguy
2008-09-16, 12:19 AM
What was the CW Samurai meant for then? I haven't really seen anybody actualy play one, so I can't comment on its supposed role.

I'm trying to figure out how many Knight's challenges the player should get per encounter. Perhaps 1/4 Knight levels + Charisma bonus?

IIRC, it's supposed to be a fighter with crowd control (the intimidate ability) and to allow the use of dual weapons without dipping into ranger.

I'm rather hoping I'm recalling the correct Samurai class, to be fair.

Oh, and that number of challenges feels about right, as long as there's a "minimum value of 1" on there for low-level Knights with low Cha (why you'd play that, I have no idea, but...).

Keld Denar
2008-09-16, 12:42 AM
lussmanj: Where would I find Sword and Fist and what is WWTPBD?

You could probably find S&F in a used bookstore, or maybe in posession of another gamer. Its been out of print for a while, what, about 4 years? Maybe 5? It was one of the first 3.0 splat books.

WWTPBD stands for "What Would The Pirate Bay Do?"

Yar! Do some internet research, I'm sure you'll be able to find something about Sword and Fist.

Grynning
2008-09-16, 12:55 AM
For the re-tuning of the Knight - make sure you let the shield-related abilities stay on as part of the class, since they're a significant part of the knight's abilities. Since shields were not big in Japan (not unknown, but just not popular), maybe give the knight the two-weapon defense feat for free and then let any shield abilities and feats apply when dual wielding. We actually had a guy who did this for an OA game and it worked out fine.

monty
2008-09-16, 12:59 AM
You could probably find S&F in a used bookstore, or maybe in posession of another gamer. Its been out of print for a while, what, about 4 years? Maybe 5? It was one of the first 3.0 splat books.

WWTPBD stands for "What Would The Pirate Bay Do?"

Yar! Do some internet research, I'm sure you'll be able to find something about Sword and Fist.

Speaking of pirates, you all know what's coming up on Friday, right?

...not that I support piracy, or anything. Yes, all of my stuff is legitimately acquired...

Frosty
2008-09-16, 01:11 AM
What is so special about Friday?

The playter doesn't necessarily have to go tohe TWF route in his mind, but I'm not sure he'll go for a shield either. Maybe if I cahnge it to an Armor bonus instead of a Shield bonus?

Grynning
2008-09-16, 01:14 AM
Just give him a "Phenomenal Parrying Skillz" feature that gives him a +1 Shield bonus to AC as long as he is armed. Then let the shield specialization that knights get increase that.

And Friday is International Talk Like a Pirate Day! (http://www.talklikeapirate.com/)

Frosty
2008-09-16, 02:59 AM
That's an idea. Although it'd be funny to see a Samurai with an Animated Shield floating around him.

bosssmiley
2008-09-16, 04:22 AM
<Mick Dundee> "That's not a samurai. *This (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=33294&highlight=samurai)* is a samurai." </Mick Dundee>

The PHB2 Knight makes an ok yojimbo, but then again so does a TOB Warblade (Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, White Raven to taste...). The CWar samurai is just a bad joke.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-16, 04:29 AM
Base Classes that make better Samurai than the Samurai:
Fighter
Cleric
Ranger
Crusader
Warblade
Knight
OA Samurai
Sohei
About 300 homebrew classes.
Any full-BAB class I missed.
Any others I'm forgetting.

Seriously, it's a joke. Shove him at Crusader or Knight.

Brauron
2008-09-16, 07:34 AM
Just to play Devil's Advocate, I have had a LOT of fun playing a CWar Samurai in the past. It all comes down to personal taste.

But for Yojimbo, yeah, go Knight.

Tormsskull
2008-09-16, 07:51 AM
Some players don't like the whole "pick whatever class you want and just say you are a samurai" angle, maybe that's put of his issue with wanting to stay with the class?

If you have first-hand experience that says this class is so underpowered, then perhaps you should sit down with the player and work with the baseline of the CW Samurai and buff it up until you feel it is strong enough to survive your campain plans. That way you'll be happy, he'll be happy, and then game on! :smallsmile:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-16, 07:57 AM
Some players don't like the whole "pick whatever class you want and just say you are a samurai" angle, maybe that's put of his issue with wanting to stay with the class?

If you have first-hand experience that says this class is so underpowered, then perhaps you should sit down with the player and work with the baseline of the CW Samurai and buff it up until you feel it is strong enough to survive your campain plans. That way you'll be happy, he'll be happy, and then game on! :smallsmile:In that case, tell him to play an OA Samurai. It's decent, at least. Or tell him to take one of the Samurai PrCs out there.

DigoDragon
2008-09-16, 08:48 AM
This strip came to mind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) when I first read the OP's question. I'm going to agree that the Knight class would work out just fine for the character concept.
Flavor as desired.

Sinfire Titan
2008-09-16, 09:02 AM
Base Classes that make better Samurai than the Samurai:
Fighter
Cleric
Ranger
Crusader
Warblade
Knight
OA Samurai
Sohei
About 300 homebrew classes.
Any full-BAB class I missed.
Any others I'm forgetting.

Seriously, it's a joke. Shove him at Crusader or Knight.

Or a Duskblade, if your idea of a Samurai is more akin to Karas...

Person_Man
2008-09-16, 09:17 AM
I'm a huge fan of the Knight. I have several strong builds in my pocket if you're interested. Having said that, even the CW Samurai is playable. Just let him take Ancestral Weapon, Item Familiar, Frightful Presence, and Imperious Command.

Ancestral Weapon basically gives him 50% more gold, which will all be poured into one kick butt weapon.

Item Familiar basically gives you your level as a bonus to one Skill. For him it will be Intimidate. It can also give you a number of other very useful powers, like Circle of Protection.

Frightful Presence makes everyone save vs. Fear whenever he attacks.

Imperious Command make people Cower whenever he demoralizes an enemy.

There you go - a playable Samurai build. Not great, but playable.
Also, a simple homebrew fix for the Samurai is to make Kiai Smite an encounter power that works like Smite Evil against everything (Cha bonus To-Hit, level bonus to Damage), and make Mass Staredown a Move action at 10th level and a Swift action at 14th. Again, I fully admit that its still bottom of the barrel. But its still playable.

Inhuman Bot
2008-09-16, 09:19 AM
I think a rouge could be a better samurai then the CW samurai.

Really though, I think that sounds right.

EDIT: I belive friday is speak like a pirate day, frosty.

Tengu_temp
2008-09-16, 09:22 AM
I'm a huge fan of the Knight. I have several strong builds in my pocket if you're interested. Having said that, even the CW Samurai is playable. Just let him take Ancestral Weapon, Item Familiar, and Imperious Command.

Ancestral Weapon basically gives him 50% more gold, which will all be poured into one kick butt weapon.

Item Familiar basically gives you your level as a bonus to one Skill. For him it will be Intimidate. It can also give you a number of other very useful powers, like Circle of Protection.

Frightful Presence makes everyone save vs. Fear whenever he attacks.

Imperious Command make people Cower whenever he demoralizes an enemy.

There you go - a playable Samurai build.

Why samurai, though? The same build works better for a fighter.

Person_Man
2008-09-16, 09:25 AM
Why samurai, though? The same build works better for a fighter.

Agreed, though the Fighter would need Zhentarim Fighter add-on and the Never Outnumbered Skill Trick.

But if a player wants to play something, arguing with them is rarely helpful. It's usually just easier to give them more stuff, and ask the other players in the group not to play Archivists and Druids.

Ossian
2008-09-16, 10:28 AM
Agreed, though the Fighter would need Zhentarim Fighter add-on and the Never Outnumbered Skill Trick.

But if a player wants to play something, arguing with them is rarely helpful. It's usually just easier to give them more stuff, and ask the other players in the group not to play Archivists and Druids.

I remember it looked all right, especially for a gamer who would fall in the brilliant categorization posted on the other thread, the one on the "3.5 Myths" (casual gamer, rolepayer and occasional gamer).

Again, most of us do not need to go for the best build or to beat the effectiveness of the other party members. Just to pick the feats and skills that won't backfire on your character and perhaps the occasional and functional multiclass (just for flavor and background though).

Samurais are the "translated" equivalent of the erring knights, for feudal japan, so the knight might well worl.

However, why not granting the Samurai 2 extra skill points and (if they are not already there, I have not the book here and have not checked it in a while) also add "Diplomacy", "Knowledge - Nobility" and "Knowledge - tactics", "Bluff", "Perform" and "Craft" to the list?
This cold compensate nicely for the poor reflex and will saves (which is possibly the only thing I disagree with the way they are stetted in the CW)

After all the Samurai will be trained in the basics of court etiquette (Diplomacy) and politics (knowledge nobility), in the arts of origami, ikebana, zen-gardening, calligraphy, bonsai and whathaveyou (Craft), in dance and music (perform), in warfare (tactics), but also in handling tricky situations, where a touch of finesse will be required.

The way I see them, is reverse engineered from Star Wars, where the Jedi Knights are the Samurai of the Old Republic. How one decides to develop his warrior, then, is another matter. If you go by the book (and I LITERALLY mean the Book of 5 Rings) an enlightened Samurai who pursues the "Do" will have the chance to perfect all of the above arts and skills.

M.

EDIT: I am aware that all of the above is moot if you just go from one CR 15 encounter to the other. However, if you roleplay, and do not take level 15-20 as a baseline for a good character...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-16, 10:34 AM
EDIT: I am aware that all of the above is moot if you just go from one CR 15 encounter to the other. However, if you roleplay, and do not take level 15-20 as a baseline for a good character...They're weaker at level 1 than a Fighter. Fighter is one of the weakest classes in the game. Anyway you roleplay them you could do with a Fighter, Ranger, Warblade, Cleric, Crusader, or about 5 other classes. The CWar Samurai serves no purpose, and taking it is essentially shooting your character in the foot.

FMArthur
2008-09-16, 10:35 AM
Samurai is bad enough that I subconsciously associate it with 'mook' whenever I hear the word. If I were to help someone playing the CW class by adding abilities, I would give it the kensai PrC's abilities at every second level.

Ossian
2008-09-16, 10:45 AM
They're weaker at level 1 than a Fighter. Fighter is one of the weakest classes in the game. Anyway you roleplay them you could do with a Fighter, Ranger, Warblade, Cleric, Crusader, or about 5 other classes. The CWar Samurai serves no purpose, and taking it is essentially shooting your character in the foot.

Well, possibly. I am not that good at optimizing, though I doubt I would appreciate the "weakness" at level one. They are both 1d10, full BAB and heavy armor guys. They are going against som CR 1 mooks...well, yeah, I guess there is a bit more to the fighter. That is possibly why I would boost the "social" abilities.
But again, it is not a subject I really like arguing on.

Eldariel
2008-09-16, 10:49 AM
The problem is that they are like Fighters, except their feats have been chosen beforehand, and all of them are well-known traps (Bastard Swords, (weakened) Two-Weapon Fighting without extra damage sources, etc.). So they're about equal to NPC Warriors, except they're guided towards using worse options than what are available to them. A Fighter can at least make smart choices and not suck (and pick Dungeon Crasher, Zhentarim Fighter and so on to do something useful!). A Samurai has no such option.

Person_Man
2008-09-16, 11:59 AM
A Samurai has no such option.

They can take the dead level add on (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x). They can make good choices with their feats from character levels. They can make good choices with their treasure. They can take overpowered templates, like Mineral Warrior or Feral or the level adjusted Ghost - which can't be permanently killed, so it doesn't matter how often you die. They can rely on friends to buff them - anything is powerful with Polymorph.

But yes, CW Samurai are the Dan Hibiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Hibiki) of 3.5 D&D. They're weaker then every other class. But a smart player can still use them relatively well.

Eldariel
2008-09-16, 12:05 PM
But a smart player can still use them relatively well.

But that's not saying much about the class. Commoners (even without Chicken Infested) can be used to break the game, but that doesn't make it a class quite as strong as Druid.

Draz74
2008-09-16, 12:12 PM
They're weaker at level 1 than a Fighter.

Actually, I think if Samurai have a "sweet spot," it's Level 1. "Ha ha, I have masterwork weapons and nobody else does!"

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-09-16, 12:18 PM
Actually, I think if Samurai have a "sweet spot," it's Level 1. "Ha ha, I have masterwork weapons and nobody else does!"

Actually per RAW CW samurai don't even get a free masterwork weapon at level 1, OA Samurai do.

Frosty
2008-09-16, 12:40 PM
I'm a huge fan of the Knight. I have several strong builds in my pocket if you're interested. Having said that, even the CW Samurai is playable. Just let him take Ancestral Weapon, Item Familiar, Frightful Presence, and Imperious Command.

Ancestral Weapon basically gives him 50% more gold, which will all be poured into one kick butt weapon.

Item Familiar basically gives you your level as a bonus to one Skill. For him it will be Intimidate. It can also give you a number of other very useful powers, like Circle of Protection.

Frightful Presence makes everyone save vs. Fear whenever he attacks.

Imperious Command make people Cower whenever he demoralizes an enemy.

There you go - a playable Samurai build. Not great, but playable.
Also, a simple homebrew fix for the Samurai is to make Kiai Smite an encounter power that works like Smite Evil against everything (Cha bonus To-Hit, level bonus to Damage), and make Mass Staredown a Move action at 10th level and a Swift action at 14th. Again, I fully admit that its still bottom of the barrel. But its still playable.

My player is not dead set on the Samurai class. It's just the first logical thing he looked at.

Ooh, please post some Knight builds here. However, know that he *will* be using a Katana/Bastard Sword. He says that as his character may "research" a reach (threatens near and far) version of the katana during the campaign so eventually he'll have the equivalent of a Spiked chain I suppose.

Ossian: There won't be a lack of rp opportunity, the way this campaign is structured, but he must be able to contribute to combat as well.

Person_Man
2008-09-16, 12:58 PM
But that's not saying much about the class. Commoners (even without Chicken Infested) can be used to break the game, but that doesn't make it a class quite as strong as Druid.

Correct. I've conceded this. The point I've attempted to make is that any smart player can make any class playable for a game, assuming he's playing with a reasonable DM and other players who don't min-max.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE proponent of optimizing, and always have been. I think optimizing can give you more playing options, and thus adds variety to the game, which can make it more fun. This is especially true for old timers like me, who have been playing since 1st ed, and have said "I hit it with my sword" so many times in repetition that it bores me utterly just to think about it. I almost never play a strait meatshield. But if a player is new-ish and hasn't become bored with vanilla classes, then there's no reason to force them to play something else just because its relatively weak compared to a variety of other game options that they've never used before.

TiaC
2008-09-16, 01:01 PM
a samurai's second blade was used almost exclusively to parry, so let him use it as a shield.

Frosty
2008-09-16, 01:08 PM
Correct. I've conceded this. The point I've attempted to make is that any smart player can make any class playable for a game, assuming he's playing with a reasonable DM and other players who don't min-max.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE proponent of optimizing, and always have been. I think optimizing can give you more playing options, and thus adds variety to the game, which can make it more fun. This is especially true for old timers like me, who have been playing since 1st ed, and have said "I hit it with my sword" so many times in repetition that it bores me utterly just to think about it. I almost never play a strait meatshield. But if a player is new-ish and hasn't become bored with vanilla classes, then there's no reason to force them to play something else just because its relatively weak compared to a variety of other game options that they've never used before.

He's not new. He just hasn't looked at the Samurai before. Now how about those Knight builds? :smalltongue:

Nerd-o-rama
2008-09-16, 01:13 PM
You know, if he wants a Samurai-style reach weapon, there's always the Naginata, aka Glaive. The Short Haft feat will let him attack near and reach with it, although he can only threaten one at a time.

Starbuck_II
2008-09-16, 01:15 PM
He's not new. He just hasn't looked at the Samurai before. Now how about those Knight builds? :smalltongue:

Have you thought about Binder?
Paimon is totally Samurai Jack-like. (how he can move like an almost Dervish 1/5 rounds).

For the Archer side of Samurai (there is Lej something-can't spell not).

I always liked Binder: can be refluffed as calling out ancestors to empower him (very Samurai like) instead of just vestiges.

Frosty
2008-09-16, 01:18 PM
We don't have the book for Binders. I also have no experience with it whatsoever.

Behold_the_Void
2008-09-16, 01:39 PM
You know, if he wants a Samurai-style reach weapon, there's always the Naginata, aka Glaive. The Short Haft feat will let him attack near and reach with it, although he can only threaten one at a time.

I definitely agree with this. Samurai, traditionally, were actually more proficient with bows and spears (longspear/yari or glaive/naginata), as well as proficient mounted warriors. Since he's going to be a yojimbo I can see a bit more precedence for the bastard sword which he should be able to use two handed (possible fix is allow some adaptation of the TWF style so he can use one of the swords as a shield to take advantage of the Knight shield bonuses), and if he needs a reach weapon he can whip out his polearm or his bow, which are perfectly thematic.

Person_Man
2008-09-16, 02:08 PM
He's not new. He just hasn't looked at the Samurai before. Now how about those Knight builds? :smalltongue:

Ask, and ye shall receive. Here are a few of my favorite Knight builds. Most of them use a lance as their primary weapon. If the player is hung up on using a katana, then Ping Pong Pete is probably his best option, though a reach weapon would still be better.

Basic Knight:

1st: Power Attack
2nd: Mounted Combat (bonus feat)
3rd: Improved Bull Rush (pre-req for Shock Trooper)
5th: Ride by Attack (bonus feat)
6th: Shock Trooper
9th: Leadership or Dragon Cohort (Draconomicon)
10th: Spirited Charge (bonus feat)

You still have your 12th, 15th, and 18th level feats open. You get another bonus feat at 15th level.

Sir Didymus
Strongheart Halfling Knight 10

Con > Cha > Dex > Str > Int 13 > Wis (dump): You need a Dex of at least 14, because you're going to be taking a lot of AoO. It's ok to dump Wis, because you have a strong Will Save and can always buy a Cloak of Resistance.

Strongheart Halflings lose their Save bonus and gain a bonus feat instead. It's a Forgotten Realms Race. You can use Gnome instead if you want, but you'll be down a feat, so you'll probably want to take Flaws.

Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (Halfling bonus feat), Mounted Combat (Knight bonus), Knock-Down, Ride By Attack (Knight bonus), Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Spirited Charge (Knight bonus). If possible, also pick up Shock Trooper ASAP. Though its not pivotal for this build, it helps a lot on your Charge attacks.

Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a pack of dogs, trained for guard duty, attack, and riding. They're cheap, fast, and also useful for disarming traps in dungeons. (Fetch the bone Lassie!) Ride one into combat, and have the others guard the campsite and act as replacements in case your main mount gets killed. An even better combination is if you have a Druid or Ranger in the party with an animal companion. At higher levels, you can take Leadership or Dragon Cohort and get something more useful, preferably something with flight.

Your combo is simple. Use Test of Mettle to draw your enemies to you. Charge through and past them repeatedly, drawing them as far away as you can from the rest of your party. Divide and conquer. Have the rest of the party gang up on whoever passed their Test of Mettle Save, and once they're dead, have them kill whoever is following you around - one at a time - vastly increasing your party's effectiveness.

Use your lance and shield together for higher AC, or use your lance two handed for Power Attack and Spirited Charge for 3(1d6+magic+[Str*1.5]+[BAB*2]) damage. If possible, use an animated shield, so that you can gain you Knight bonus to it while maximizing your damage output.

If someone tries to attack you, you get a free hit on them (lance is a reach weapon) followed by a free Trip attempt (Knock-Down). Remember, no one can charge through an occupied square, so if the person isn't killed, they become defensive terrain for you. And with Vigilante Defender, Skill Monkeys and Monks will have a hard time bypassing your defenses.

Also, its important to note that if someone under the effect of your Test of Mettle is standing 0-10 feet away from you, your next action should usually be to Withdraw or Move away at your full speed, or if possible Charge through and past them or someone else on the battlefield, ending up 70ish feet away. Don't make a Full Attack. And don't take your To-Hit down so far with Power Attack that you risk missing. This is counter intuitive, but remember that your main goal on the battlefield is to control your enemies, not engage them. If they spend every round chasing you, that's another round they're not attacking your friends. This is your true goal. Occasional massive damage from a great charge attack is just a helpful side effect.

Keep in mind that using this combo is just begging your DM to throw incorporeal (immune to Trip) enemies and/or enemies with no Int score (immune to Test of Mettle) at you. So I suggest you buy two lances: One main +4 Adamantine Lance (maximizing your chance To-Hit) for regular combat, and a secondary +1 Cold Steel Ghost Touch Lance of Disruption for when its appropriate.

Your DM will probably also mix in a large number of ranged combatants, so be sure to have a friend cast Protection from Arrows on you.

Ping Pong Pete
Goliath Knight 12 (ECL 13)
Cha > Dex > Str > Con > Int 13 > Wis (dump): Like Sir Didymus, you need a Dex of at least 14, because you're going to be taking a lot of AoO. And it's ok to dump Wis, because you have a strong Will Save and can always buy a Cloak of Resistance. But thanks to the racial bonuses, Pete doesn't need to invest in Str and Con as highly as Sir Didymus.

Feats: Power Attack, Mounted Combat (bonus), Improved Bull Rush, Ride By Attack (bonus), Combat Reflexes, Knockback (Races of Stone), Spirited Charge (bonus), Shock Trooper.

Pete has two combo's. The first copies Sir Didymus. Get on a horse, use Test of Mettle, divide and conquer. Note that your damage output will definitely be higher, because you can use a large lance, use Shock Trooper to shift the To-Hit penalty to AC, and will generally have higher Str.

The second combo revolves around Knockback. It's a feat that's limited to Large and Powerful Build races which gives you a free Bull Rush whenever you hit an enemy, adding your Power Attack bonus to it. So instead of leaving your enemies Prone, you push them back. Shock Trooper allows you to move your enemies one square to the left or right for each square you push them back. And it gives you a free Trip attempt if you can steer a Bull Rushed enemy into another enemy's square. And hilariously, all your enemies can do is get up and head right back towards you.

This build is more powerful, but it suffers from two big weaknesses. First, since goliaths are a medium race, they can generally only be mounted while outdoors. Being a small race, Sir Didymus can pretty much go anywhere on his medium mount, maintaining his mobility under almost any conditions. If you just know that you're going to be spending a lot of time indoors, then drop the Ride By Attack and Spirited Charge and pick up Iron Will and Great Fortitude instead (sigh - I wish the Knight's bonus feat list was better), and pick up Leap Attack as soon as you can.

Second, Sir Didymus is playable at every level, but Pete desperately needs lots of feats for his key second combo to work. Flaws help. But if you can't use flaws and you're playing at mid levels you have to suck it up and take 2 levels of Fighter, and accept the fact that your Knight abilities will be somewhat sub-par.

Hentai, the Knight Protector
Whatever Knight X/Crusader 2
Cha > Dex > Str (13+)> Con > Int (10+) > Wis (dump): Basically, this Knight has three goals:

1) Get access to Standstill (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Stand_Still), Combat Reflexes, and Mage Slayer (Complete Arcane).

2) Get access to Thicket of Blades, the Tome of Battle stance that prevents the avoidance of AoO from 5 ft steps (and arguably other types of movement). You can do this with a couple of levels of Crusader, or by investing a few feats to get it.

3) Getting ridiculous reach. This can be accomplished a number of ways:

Play a big race (try to avoid LA)
Reach Weapon: Doubles reach.
Wildshape/Polymorph: Turn into something bigger.
Enlarge Person: +1 size, only works on humanoids.
Expansion (doesn't stack with Enlarge Person): +1 or +2 size.
Alter Self (doesn't stack with Enlarge Person or Expansion): +1 size.
Willing Deformity -> Deformity Tall (Heroes of Horror): +5 ft.
Aberration Blood -> Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness): +5 ft.
Extended Reach (req tentacle like limbs, provided by Inhuman Reach): +5 ft.
3 levels of Warshaper (Comp Warrior): +5 ft, but only with natural weapons.

Some of these options aren't a good option for this build, but I'd though I'd put them out there anyway. But even using just a reach weapon, Aberration Blood, Inhuman Reach, and Extended Reach, you can get 30 feet of reach before any magical intervention, and 50 feet or more with a simple Enlarge Person or Alter Self. You'll probably rely on friends for various spells, or you can invest in UMD cross class. With high Cha, its not unreasonable, and the DC for using a Wand is fixed.

Find a way to consistently deal 40ish damage per hit - not very hard with decent Str, a two handed weapon magic weapon, etc. This will make the Reflex Saves needed to accomplish any type of movement and the Concentration checks needed to cast ridiculously hard. And with Test of Mettle, enemies will be forced to attack you, while your friends are free to gang up on the enemies who passed their Test of Mettle checks.

The down side of this build is that it really doesn't come together until at least ECL 12ish, if not much higher. It lacks any offensive combo, though you could certainly add one at high levels. And your DM is definitely going to use lots of long range enemies against you, so be prepared.

Frosty
2008-09-16, 02:14 PM
Well he has already settled on the Hellbred race (probably the Body aspect kind), so Goliath is out. Being that he wants to be a Yojimbo and isn't going for mounted, the Knight Defender type is probably what he'll be.

Assuming he doesn't actually want to take levels in Crusader, does he really need Thicket of Blades? Knights already get Bulwark of Defense and that other ability that makes it harder to Tumble.

If he were going Knight for all 20 levels, what would your feat choices be and at what levels? Maybe a Robilar's gambit thrown in somewhere?

Person_Man
2008-09-16, 02:30 PM
Well he has already settled on the Hellbred race (probably the Body aspect kind), so Goliath is out. Being that he wants to be a Yojimbo and isn't going for mounted, the Knight Defender type is probably what he'll be.

Assuming he doesn't actually want to take levels in Crusader, does he really need Thicket of Blades? Knights already get Bulwark of Defense and that other ability that makes it harder to Tumble.

If he were going Knight for all 20 levels, what would your feat choices be and at what levels? Maybe a Robilar's gambit thrown in somewhere?

Thicket of Blades isn't really required, its just helpful. It covers 5 ft steps, and with DM leniency, other types of movement like Tumble, Spring Attack, and various other manuevers or feats that let you avoid AoO.

If he's going with a non-mounted Hellbred Knight 20, then the feats are pretty strait forward, IMO. Standstill, Combat Reflexes, and Mage Slayer, Willing Deformity, Deformity Tall, Aberration Blood, Inhuman Reach, and Extended Reach is 7 feats. That only gives him one left, maybe three if you allow flaws, plus Knight bonus feats (which are lousy if you're not doing mounted combat). I would skip exotic weapon proficiency and use the katana two handed - heck, I'd even house rule that a katana for someone with 15 ft arms would be a reach weapon. But that's just me. For the remaining feats, Rob's Gambit would be a good idea. Pierce Magical Concealment is also a high level life saver. Power Attack is always good.

Frosty
2008-09-16, 02:43 PM
5-ft steps are not possible anyways thanks to the area around the Knight being Difficult Terrain. So unless the enemy can 5-ft step thru Difficult Terrain, he's good. Only high tumble bonuses can get someone out safely.

We are also not using Lords of Madness. Also, the character would commit seppuku before ever willingly deforming himself like that, so inhuman reach is out. Being a monster is the last thing he wants. So assuming that Willing Deformity, Deformity Tall, Aberration Blood, Inhuman Reach, and Extended Reach are out of the picture, that opens up a lot of room. What would you suggest? Ability Focus (Knight's Challenge)? I think he'll definitely take Avenging Strike as well.

Tormsskull
2008-09-16, 02:48 PM
Also, the character would commit seppuku before ever willingly deforming himself like that, so inhuman reach is out. Being a monster is the last thing he wants. So assuming that Willing Deformity, Deformity Tall, Aberration Blood, Inhuman Reach, and Extended Reach are out of the picture, that opens up a lot of room.

Weren't you one of the posters who said you could reflavour mechanics how you want? Couldn't this player take the mechanical benefits of said feats and reflavour them to something that does make sense for him?

Frosty
2008-09-16, 02:53 PM
That's true. And I will talk to him about that, but I am drawing a blank as to how I can re-flavor deformities and whether or not he even wants that kind of mechanics. Plus, I don't know Lord of Madness that well myself.

Eskil
2008-09-16, 04:18 PM
That's true. And I will talk to him about that, but I am drawing a blank as to how I can re-flavor deformities and whether or not he even wants that kind of mechanics.

Willing deformity: You are at home in battle. Others see it and are intimidated.
Deformity(Tall): You have schooled yourself in an highly aggresive form of martial-arts. Your reach is greater than most, but you leave yourself open in combat and consider stealth beneath you.

Many of the other deformity feats can also be reflavored as various forms of martial-arts.

Frosty
2008-09-16, 04:26 PM
Hey, what about making a Devil-Touched feat that grants an extra 5ft of reach? It would make perfect sense for a Hellbred. It's a kind of deformity that his character has no choice but to live with.

He's trying to cleanse his soul as well so he can avoid going to Hell when he dies. Perhaps when he has successfully cleansed his soul, all of his Devil-Touched Feats will disappear and he can choose other feats in their place, and around that time his character finishes researching and making a reach katana.

Person_Man
2008-09-16, 04:39 PM
Well, if he's unwilling to use feats or races to improve reach, then I highly suggest using a Wand of Polymorph or something similar. 10 or 20 feet of reach really doesn't do that much for this build, he really needs to cover as much of the battlefield as possible.

If the other feats are open, then I'd suggest some mix of Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Rob's Gambit, Ancestral Weapon, Item Familiar, Frightful Presence, Shield Ward (PHBII), Sidestep Charge, Improved Toughness, Pierce Magical Concealment, Defensive Throw, and Allied Defense (Shining South). Note that many of these have pre-reqs. It really depends on how much offense vs. defense he wants, and what books are allowed.

You could also theoretically take Subduing Strike, Vow of Non-Violence, and maybe even Vow of Peace. That would take the whole Knight Protector thing to a whole new level. Not only does he protect his teammates, but he protects all intelligent humanoids, and maybe even all life. Obviously, that only works in with a group that's into a "ask questions first, shoot much later" style of roleplaying. It leads to heavy use of the social Skills, which I'm a fan of. And mechanically and fluff wise it would work well, and a nice DM might allow the +4 bonus to the DCs of non-damaging spells apply to Knight special abilities.

Frosty
2008-09-16, 04:56 PM
He says he's ok with having 5 or 10ft reach. If he's happy with it, why not? The Wizard can always Enlarge Person him as well.

They will negotiate if they must, but since 99% of the enemies they fight will be Devils, they'll likely be hitting to kill.

Is frightful Presence a feat? If so, what are the details and where is it from? An Item Familiar helps with skill checks. A Knight doesn't really depend on skills. Knight's Challenge are all Will Saves, not Intimidate checks. I'm not sure what Defensive Throw does either.

Draz74
2008-09-16, 06:13 PM
Is frightful Presence a feat? If so, what are the details and where is it from?

From Draconomicon (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Frightful_Presence,Dr).

Defensive Throw: From Complete Warrior (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Defensive_Throw,CW).

Person_Man
2008-09-16, 07:45 PM
He says he's ok with having 5 or 10ft reach. If he's happy with it, why not? The Wizard can always Enlarge Person him as well.

Well, the entire combo rests upon your threatening area, as do several Knight abilities. So the bigger the area, the more useful you are. 10 ft of reach really isn't that helpful for this combo. So he might want to use something else. I gave you all of my Knight ideas. I can't think of any others off the top of my head.


They will negotiate if they must, but since 99% of the enemies they fight will be Devils, they'll likely be hitting to kill.

Vow of Non-Violence only applies to humanoids and monstrous humanoids. And now that I've actually gotten home and read the source book, I can tell you that it improves ALL special abilities that do not deal damage by +4. Again, it has heavy roleplaying implications. But it sounds perfect for a Knight in this situation.


Is frightful Presence a feat? If so, what are the details and where is it from? An Item Familiar helps with skill checks. A Knight doesn't really depend on skills. Knight's Challenge are all Will Saves, not Intimidate checks. I'm not sure what Defensive Throw does either.

Draz74 already helpfully gave you the info you need on where to find the feats.

Frightful Presence basically gives you a dragon's fear aura. When combined with other fear effects, like the Knight's Daunting Challenge and numerous spells and magic items, it can be very potent. Fear effects from different sources stack. Shaken enemies become Frighten. Frightened enemies become Panicked. And Panicked enemies who can't flee Cower, and can take no actions.

Item Familiars (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Item_Familiars), which anyone can gain as a feat (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Item_Familiar_(Feat)) (assuming your DM allows it and Unearthed Arcana) can also grant the special abilities of Intelligent Items (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Intelligent_Items). Take a look at the list of powers listed under Intelligent Items. For example, Magic Circle, True Resurrection, Waves of Exhaustion, Detect Thoughts, Greater Invisibility, etc. Now, a prudent DM would probably charge the PC with the gp cost of the Intelligent Weapon/Item Familiar. But its not required, especially if the PC is playing a melee character in an otherwise optimized group of 20th level characters.

Defensive Throw gives you a free Trip attempt whenever the target of your Dodge feat attacks and misses you (plus a follow up attack from Improved Trip if you're successful). A Knight Protector that doesn't use Power Attack often will usually get a free Trip attempt every turn, especially since he has sky high AC, can stop enemies from charging him, disrupt spell casters, and disarm ranged attackers within his (presumably) huge reach.

Now that I think of it, Occult Opportunist (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Occult_Opportunist,all) and Supernatural Opportunist (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Supernatural_Opportunist,all) would be very good ideas as well. But again, the build relies entirely on having a lot of reach. If he doesn't want that, that's fine. There's probably a better build out there for him then.

Frosty
2008-09-16, 08:11 PM
In the important fights, 20ft should be planty. He doesn't need to be uber optimized. If he can keep two opponents tied up, he has probably done his job. 20ft radius is Fireball area. That's pretty good.

Frightful presence seems cool. Even Pit Fiends only have 18 HD.

Helgraf
2008-09-16, 09:52 PM
If you can get your hands on the ol' 3.0 Sword and Fist book, there was a PrC in there called Devoted Defender. It had some cool mechanics such as swapping position with your charge to take a hit, or gaining bonuses if someone hit your charge, or even shielding your charge from area attacks. Was kind of cool. I don't think much in the mechanics changed that you couldn't easily take levels of it in a 3.5 game. I normally don't advocate recommending 3.0 material in a 3.5 game, but this one wasn't reprinted and works just fine as it stands, and isn't completely retarded (see Forsaker).

The hardest part is gonna be getting a hold of a copy of Sword and Fist...WWTPBD?

Heh. I have a player whose character is a Rogue2/FighterX/Devoted Defender 10 in one of the games I run. And yes, it's a 3.5 game. I looked over DD and found nothing cringeworthy, so I approved it, because unlike some people, I don't automatically approve of 3.0 stuff that wasn't re-written to 3.5 as canon and acceptable. I review first.

Frosty
2008-09-16, 09:54 PM
So nothing broken at all about it?

Eldariel
2008-09-17, 07:42 AM
It's perfectly fair, yes. Most 3.0 stuff is, really, and would make 3.5 experience better too (stuff like Peerless Archer, Deepwood Sniper, OotBI, Weapon Master, stuff that's missing in 3.5). Basically, Defender gets:

d12 HD, good BAB, good Fort, good Ref.

Harm's Way: At level 1, you can switch place with your charge as a free action if you're within 5' of him/her when he/she is attacked. You must declare this before the attack roll. You select your charge when you roll initiative as a free action.

Defensive Strike: At level 2, whenever your charge is attacked in melee, you can make an AoO against the attacker. You must be within 5' of him/her. You gain increasing bonuses on this over levels (+0 on 2, +1 on 4, +2 on 6, etc.).

Deflect Attack: At level 3, you can attempt to parry attacks against your charge. You must be within 5' of him/her and be wielding a melee weapon or a shield. Once per round, when your charge would normally be hit in melee, you can make a DC 20+Attacker's Weapons Enhancement Bonus Reflex save. If you succeed, the attack is deflected. You gain competence bonus on this save for +1 on level 3, +2 on level 5, etc.

AC bonus: When you're 5' from your charge, you gain an AC bonus. +1 on level 1, +2 on level 3, +3 on level 5, etc.

Requires:
BAB +5
Weapon Focus: Melee
Alertness
Search, Sense Motive, Spot: 4 ranks

Gets:
2+Int skills in Climb, (Innuendo) [to be used with your charge :o In any case, 3.0 skill], Jump, Listen, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Spot.


So yea, it's not broken. The prerequisites are really weak. That said, the abilities are very handy. It's really handy for protecting people though and is especially efficient against chargers and the like (stuff that relies on single attack and doesn't maneuver very well), especially since you can choose .

Person_Man
2008-09-17, 08:33 AM
Hey, if we're just throwing stuff out there, the Hellreaver from Fiendish Codex 2 makes an amazing defender as well. Divine Succor is the most potent class feature. The ability to heal 10/20/30 hit points (depending on your class level) to any Good aligned creature within 20 feet as a Swift Action is quite useful. Think about it - you essentially have Fast Healing 30. Plus you get Mettle, which is helpful against a dozen or so spells (Disintegrate, Fear, Cloudkill). And the rest of the abilities are all targeted toward killing evil outsiders, and you said it would be a devil focused campaign.

Frosty
2008-09-17, 11:07 AM
Hmm Hellreaver is...very thematically appropriate. I'll definitely talk to him about it. What would you use as the base class?

Person_Man
2008-09-17, 01:38 PM
Hmm Hellreaver is...very thematically appropriate. I'll definitely talk to him about it. What would you use as the base class?

Off the top of my head, Barbarian 1/Paladin of Freedom 4/Hellreaver 10/Whatever 5. That would give you pounce, Immunity to Compulsion, Immunity to Disease, Cha to Saves, Turn Undead (for divine or domain devotion feats), ability to heal 30 points per round as a Swift Action, Mettle, Immunity to Fear, and some other miscellaneous abilities. Buy a Ring of Evasion, some good armor, an animated shield, and a Cloak of Displacement, and this guy would be seriously difficult to take down. The only real weaknesses I could think of would be touch attacks (can be solved by feats or certain types of armor), Trip/Disarm/Grapple/Bull Rush (can be solved by Combat Stability), and some psionics (not worth defending against unless your DM gives you a heads up about it).

Frosty
2008-09-17, 01:45 PM
It's my campaign. I don't do any psionics. Do you think a level of cleric is worth it instead of Paladin 4? One cleric level could mean 2 free domain feats, and you'll get turning as well.