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Stupendous_Man
2008-09-16, 12:44 AM
A friend of mine who is new to DnD will be playing an Alienist (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=17635) and will need advice on what creatures he should summon with his character.

I couldn't help him, so I was wondering if anyone had an idea on wizard summons?

overduegalaxy
2008-09-16, 01:12 AM
For his summons, to replace stuff that can't just have "Pseudonatural" slapped on, you might consider turning to d20 Modern or Future for rougly same-strength monsters to summon.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-16, 01:13 AM
Don't play an Alienist?

In all honesty, it's not too huge a nerf to his character, but Pseudonatural isn't any better than Celestial or Fiendish. Have him take the Rapid Summoning and Enhanced Summoning variants at least, though, otherwise summoning just isn't worth it.

Stupendous_Man
2008-09-16, 01:17 AM
unfortunately UA isn't really allowed in the campaign.

Enlong
2008-09-16, 01:32 AM
How is Alienist a "huge nerf"? If he's Summoning anyway, Alienist is a pretty good class, all in all. You lose no caster levels, you gain extra spells per day, you get a cool template that, among other things, can go into a form that drops saving throws (or something, can't remember) and stuff. Not to mention you get familiar progression, which is not something that most PRCs give you. And as a Wizard, learning the Summon Monster really costs you nothing, as you still can fill your spellbook with everything else you need.

Now then, as for other advice, I myself don't really know exactly what monsters you should summon. the spells tell you what monsters you can summon, so flip through the Monster Manual and take a look at the corresponding monsters. Remember, as an Alienist, you can only summon Pseudonatural creatures with a Summon Monster spell, so only monsters that would be Celestial or Fiendish (note, summoning Pseudonatual creatures is always a Neutral act).

I have more advice for the actual build. As a Wizard, if you're already using Complete Arcane, you should probably look into the Geometer. Only one lost spell level, and you get, among other things, the ability to scribe any spell into just one page. It's a time and money saver. In addition to that, try and save the last five levels of Alienist for the last five levels of the character. See, Extra Summoning, which you get on the top five levels of Alienist, give their benefit to the top spell level you have. So if you wait unitl level 16 to do Alienist levels 6-10, you'll have 3 extra 8th level spells and 2 extra 9th level spells for Summon Monster spells, freeing up all your other slots for other spells.

One last note: the summoning restriction only applies to Summon Monster spells. Spells like, oh say Summon Elemental Monolith are not restricted by the Alienist class feature.
Just watch out for the WIS penalties. (the book actually suggests it as a Cleric prestige class. Hah!)

Grynning
2008-09-16, 01:46 AM
What level are you starting at? Summoning starts out pretty weak and is hard to pull off as an arcane caster, but basically you'll want to focus on using your highest level summons, the lower-level ones won't be worth much and will die rather easily. Alienist makes it more difficult by eliminating most of the really good critters from the summoning list - all you can get with it are pseudonatural dinosaurs and giant animals, which rarely have any really good abilities. Malconvoker from Complete Scoundrel is a better summoning class, you may want to point your friend towards that.

General advice on using summon monster: taking extend spell is probably a good idea since the actual summon monster x spells have a relatively short duration, so if you want to use your monsters for anything besides combat (like scouting or whatever) you'll need to be able to keep them around longer. It would also be smart to grab Arcane Thesis from PHB II for the summon spell you find most useful, since the +2 caster level and the -1 level adjust for metamagic will let you cast a significantly extended version every time you use it.

Keld Denar
2008-09-16, 02:16 AM
Dire Squirrels, can't remember the source, but once they latch on, they start doing blood drain (CON damage). Pseudonatural creatures get True Strike as a spell like ability once a day. Summon 1d4+1 Dire Squirrels with like, a 4th-5th level spell. Empower it if possible for more squirrely goodness. All squirrels cast True Strike then latch on at once. Its not a grapple, but a special rule for removing them, which is a royal pain in the ass. Therefore, you latch on anything that isn't immune to CON damage.

Plus, squirrels are appropriate, since as an alienist, you have a class feature which literally makes you nuts!

RagnaroksChosen
2008-09-16, 07:19 AM
How is Alienist a "huge nerf"? If he's Summoning anyway, Alienist is a pretty good class, all in all. You lose no caster levels, you gain extra spells per day, you get a cool template that, among other things, can go into a form that drops saving throws (or something, can't remember) and stuff. Not to mention you get familiar progression, which is not something that most PRCs give you. And as a Wizard, learning the Summon Monster really costs you nothing, as you still can fill your spellbook with everything else you need.

Now then, as for other advice, I myself don't really know exactly what monsters you should summon. the spells tell you what monsters you can summon, so flip through the Monster Manual and take a look at the corresponding monsters. Remember, as an Alienist, you can only summon Pseudonatural creatures with a Summon Monster spell, so only monsters that would be Celestial or Fiendish (note, summoning Pseudonatual creatures is always a Neutral act).

I have more advice for the actual build. As a Wizard, if you're already using Complete Arcane, you should probably look into the Geometer. Only one lost spell level, and you get, among other things, the ability to scribe any spell into just one page. It's a time and money saver. In addition to that, try and save the last five levels of Alienist for the last five levels of the character. See, Extra Summoning, which you get on the top five levels of Alienist, give their benefit to the top spell level you have. So if you wait unitl level 16 to do Alienist levels 6-10, you'll have 3 extra 8th level spells and 2 extra 9th level spells for Summon Monster spells, freeing up all your other slots for other spells.

One last note: the summoning restriction only applies to Summon Monster spells. Spells like, oh say Summon Elemental Monolith are not restricted by the Alienist class feature.
Just watch out for the WIS penalties. (the book actually suggests it as a Cleric prestige class. Hah!)


The Reason why its a huge nerf is because you loose all the monsters on your list that the template can't be applied to. Plus Malconvoker is just so so much better.

Stupendous_Man
2008-09-16, 09:23 AM
Dire Squirrels, can't remember the source, but once they latch on, they start doing blood drain (CON damage). Pseudonatural creatures get True Strike as a spell like ability once a day. Summon 1d4+1 Dire Squirrels with like, a 4th-5th level spell. Empower it if possible for more squirrely goodness. All squirrels cast True Strike then latch on at once. Its not a grapple, but a special rule for removing them, which is a royal pain in the ass. Therefore, you latch on anything that isn't immune to CON damage.

Plus, squirrels are appropriate, since as an alienist, you have a class feature which literally makes you nuts!

.... you aren't suggesting he become SQUIRREL BOY, are you?



The Reason why its a huge nerf is because you loose all the monsters on your list that the template can't be applied to. Plus Malconvoker is just so so much better.

The player likes the alienist class and wants to play one. I'm just trying to help him do well in his decision.

I would appreciate it if people stopped saying "Play something else" because the player isn't going to retool the character because someone else said so.

Just give me some advice on playing a (possibly suboptimal) class so I can pass it on to a newbie and improve his character and hopefully gaming experience.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-09-16, 09:30 AM
.... you aren't suggesting he become SQUIRREL BOY, are you?



The player likes the alienist class and wants to play one. I'm just trying to help him do well in his decision.

I would appreciate it if people stopped saying "Play something else" because the player isn't going to retool the character because someone else said so.

Just give me some advice on playing a (possibly suboptimal) class so I can pass it on to a newbie and improve his character and hopefully gaming experience.


err, I totaly agree.. I was responding to the other poster... and why its considered Nerfed/sub optimal.
Also a lot of people say play something else because if the rest of the group is playing normal or optimized classes this character is going to feel really underpowered/ or useless thats all.

Summoners are pritty easy
Read:
Summoners handbook http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883099

pritty much all you need to know about summoning.. I'm playing a summoner in an Ebberron game its alot of fun.

Stupendous_Man
2008-09-16, 09:39 AM
Thanks.

I will be informing the player that his class is going to hurt him a bit.

I will also suggest he work it out with the DM. I am thinking perhaps we will have the pseudonatural restriction of the Alienist be optional, allowing him to either summon regular stuff or, if he wishes, summon pseudonatural creatures.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-16, 09:41 AM
.... you aren't suggesting he become SQUIRREL BOY, are you?



The player likes the alienist class and wants to play one. I'm just trying to help him do well in his decision.

I would appreciate it if people stopped saying "Play something else" because the player isn't going to retool the character because someone else said so.

Just give me some advice on playing a (possibly suboptimal) class so I can pass it on to a newbie and improve his character and hopefully gaming experience.Without UA, Clerics and Druids are much better summoners than Wizards. Even with it, it's only even. Alienist is a very weak class anyways, he's nerfing his Summon list. Yes, it is optimizable, but it will be hard, and most of the tricks I know Alienist makes not work, sorry.

Stupendous_Man
2008-09-16, 09:48 AM
I'll let him know.

The DM may be lenient and let the Pseudonatural template thing be optional, which would help his character.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-16, 09:52 AM
See also if he could re-fluff the Malconvoker, and make it apply to Pseudonatural summons instead of evil ones. Malconvoker 5 is one of the best levels in the game.

And are you sure he can't use UA? Positive?

Starbuck_II
2008-09-16, 10:08 AM
What level are you starting at? Summoning starts out pretty weak and is hard to pull off as an arcane caster, but basically you'll want to focus on using your highest level summons, the lower-level ones won't be worth much and will die rather easily. Alienist makes it more difficult by eliminating most of the really good critters from the summoning list - all you can get with it are pseudonatural dinosaurs and giant animals, which rarely have any really good abilities.


Disagree. No matter what template Spiders rule!
They get Web (free entanglefoot bags, well 8 of them) and can poison. Web affect up to one size large. So SM I can web meduim, and so on and so forth.

So they stay useful till fight gargantuan monsters (Getting huge spiders isn't worth the slot usually compared to alternatives).

Really, I'm not sure what is so great about Pseudonatural template either way.
But if he is going to do it:

Dire Weasels drain Con, Spiders web, and many creatures have poison.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-09-16, 10:16 AM
Disagree. No matter what template Spiders rule!
They get Web (free entanglefoot bags, well 8 of them) and can poison. Web affect up to one size large. So SM I can web meduim, and so on and so forth.

So they stay useful till fight gargantuan monsters (Getting huge spiders isn't worth the slot usually compared to alternatives).

Really, I'm not sure what is so great about Pseudonatural template either way.
But if he is going to do it:

Dire Weasels drain Con, Spiders web, and many creatures have poison.


Posion isn't that great...

I still get excited when ever i summon my Clestial Bison or Fiendish dire APE... ya im only 5th so what...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-16, 10:38 AM
Here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=918792) It's a Malconvoker Handbook, yes, but he has a great level-by-level breakdown of summonable monsters and their relative capabilities. Very nice, IMHO.

Dode
2008-09-16, 11:19 AM
If I could somehow swing 8 ranks in Knowledge (the planes) as a druid, I'd totally go for a... 1 level dip in Alienist. SR for animal summons = to HD + 10? Yes please.

Edit: Celestial or Fiendish creatures only and no others? HAHA okay whatever then

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-16, 11:24 AM
If I could somehow swing 8 ranks in Knowledge (the planes) as a druid, I'd totally go for a... 1 level dip in Alienist. SR for animal summons = to HD + 10? Yes please.There's a feat to make it a class skill, I'm sure. And what better way to fill out those levels until Planar Shepard? Don't forget to take the Initiate of Malar feat and Ring of the Beast. :smallwink:

Stupendous_Man
2008-09-16, 11:29 AM
And are you sure he can't use UA? Positive?

The DM is not a fan of UA, though I do recall him saying UA material may be approved on a case by case basis, so the plan now is to ask him for things.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-16, 11:54 AM
Rapid Summoning, then. Enhanced Summoning is nice too, but 1-round castings are a hideous problem, and that fixes it. Take both if you can, but if you can't, RS. If you can't do that, at least take the Conjuration Specialist variant from PHBII. Loses your Familiar, gains teleport as an Immediate Action Int mod times per day. Use it to dodge attacks. But Rapid Summoning is better for an Alienist.

Darrin
2008-09-16, 01:06 PM
I couldn't help him, so I was wondering if anyone had an idea on wizard summons?

Alienist... wonderful PrC. Not optimal, but you don't lose caster levels, and oozes (literally) with great flavor. There is no Alienist Handbook, but the Summoning Handbook should have lots of good advice:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883099

Qualifying: Augment Summoning is a great feat for summoners, but unfortunately requires the darned-near useless Spell Focus: Conjuration (most conjurations, particulary summoning spells, don't have saving throws). On the other hand, Grease and Glitterdust, which are cornerstone Batman-type spells, do have saving throws, so it's not a complete loss. But there is a bit of a bare patch between Glitterdust and Cloudkill.

If you want to pick up Augment Summoning without Spell Focus, there are a couple ways around this. There is a domain in Faiths of Eberron for the Cults of the Dragon Below that grants Augment Summoning as a Bonus Feat. You can use the Planar Touchstone feat from the Planar Handbook to link to the Catalogues of Enlightenment, which will grant you the domain power of any cleric domain. There doesn't appear to be any deity or alignment requirement to use the Catalogues of Enlightenment. If you're a sorcerer, there's also the Divine Sorcery feat from Dragon #343 that grants you a domain power and one domain spell per day.

Wizard seems to be the preferred class to go into Alienist, although the PrC requirements are open to anyone who can cast summoning spells. Archivist is the most optimal choice for an Alienist, since they have access to both Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally. SNA generally gets you stronger animals. Druids and Clerics qualify just as easily... and ok, yes, you do take a 2-point permanent reduction in Wisdom, but considering how powerful Druids and Clerics can be, it's a penalty you can probably live with.

Specific Creatures: Ok, so you lose the ability to summon elementals, demons/devils, and some other outsider type stuff. You can get at least a small elemental back with the Summon Elemental reserve feat. As far as which creatures are best... I've never played a summoner, so I have no idea which creatures are better than others. Glancing through some of the summon monster spells...

SM1:
Normally, the dog or fire beetle would probably be your best all-around combatant. However, the pseudonatural template gives you true strike 1/day, so I think the small viper might actually be the most dangerous (1d6 Con damage). Normally, animals don't have a great hit bonus, particularly at the lower end of summon monster, so they hardly ever hit. True Strike gives you +20 1/day, so animals/vermin with poison or other types of ability damage become more potent. Augment Summoning also increases their Con-based save DCs, which still aren't all that great, but with a large number of pit vipers, somebody will eventually blow a save. Small spiders using True Strike with web also looks like an excellent strategy for slowing opponents down.

SM2:
Bombardier beetle has an area-effect acid spray. Riding dog or wolf is probably the best all-around combat animal... dog does a little more damage, but wolf has trip. Large centipede may be useful as a grappler. Medium viper... I don' t know, you're probably better off with multiple small vipers.

SM3:
Bison has great damage and may be one of the best anti-spellcaster animals. The huge centipede has a little bit better grapple, but the bison has a whopping 22 strength. It also is the first creature to pick up DR 5/magic from the pseudonatural template. Hippogriff makes a temporary but nice flying mount in a pinch (fly 100').

SM4:
Giant eagle is the first animal to show up with fly-by attack, which unlike spring attack allows you to take any standard action during a move. This can be used for aid another action (+2 to attack, +2 to AC, or +2 to skill check), and you can stack multiple aid anothers together. For combat, it's a toss-up between the lion and dire wolf... lion gives us pounce, improved grab, and rake, but the dire wolf has better hp, better damage bonus, and trip. Since True Strike doesn't really work with pounce, I'd go with the dire wolf.

SM5:
Brown bear is one of the best grapplers in the game, and one of the best ways to neutralize a spellcaster. Tiger is probably best for all-around combat, but the dire boar will probably last longer.

SM6:
Polar bear and dire lion are both good, but I think I like using that True Strike on a rhino charge (4d6+24 damage). We also see our first gargantuan summons... ok, centipede may not be that impressive, but can be used for battlefield control, filling a 20' x 20' square that your opponent has to deal with or go around.

SM7:
Elephant. You won't need anything else.

SM8:
Hmm... I like the triceratops for the powerful charge and trample, but the tyranosauras has swallow whole if you need to get rid of any targets medium-sized or smaller.

SM9:
Very few choices here, but then again, not sure you can find something better than a roc. True Strike + Power Attack, and if it isn't dead, snatch it for falling damage or fling it 1d6 x 10' feet.

There are some other summon options from other sourcebooks... these wouldn't get the pseudonatural template, since they aren't summon monster spells and wouldn't have celestial/fiendish templates.

Conjure Ice Beast spells (Frostburn): Both Clerics and Druids have access to these, which gives clerics access to ice beast versions of all the Summon Nature's Ally creatures (as I mentioned earlier, the SNA creatures tend to be stronger). They are constructs, however, so you lose your Con score, but pick up some extra HP based on size and a whole lot of immunities to various effects/conditions. One thing you need to keep in mind with ice beasts is they lose their special attacks and special qualities, so wolves lose trip, lions lose pounce, etc. In exchange, you get to pick from a nice variety of special attacks, including: a no-save cold energy area effect, engulf, cold damage on melee attacks, or a breath weapon.

Summon Desert Ally spells (Sandstorm): Similar to ice beasts, but only Druids have easy access to these spells. You don't gain extra HP based on size, but your natural armor bonus improves by +5. Also different from ice beasts, they keep their special qualities, but I don't really see much SQs in the animals other than scent. Only one new special attack though, a sand-based breath weapon.

Wolfpack
2008-09-16, 01:37 PM
Conjure Ice Beast spells (Frostburn): Both Clerics and Druids have access to these, which gives clerics access to ice beast versions of all the Summon Nature's Ally creatures (as I mentioned earlier, the SNA creatures tend to be stronger). They are constructs, however, so you lose your Con score, but pick up some extra HP based on size and a whole lot of immunities to various effects/conditions. One thing you need to keep in mind with ice beasts is they lose their special attacks and special qualities, so wolves lose trip, lions lose pounce, etc. In exchange, you get to pick from a nice variety of special attacks, including: a no-save cold energy area effect, engulf, cold damage on melee attacks, or a breath weapon.

Okay, lots of things to say here:

1) You can use any creatures from Summon Natures Ally or Summon Monster. This means you get access to the Fiendish Vermin, and since most of the Ice Beast defenses are based on Size, that's a good thing.

2) Engulf has the save DC of 10 + 1/2 HD + Str. And for creatures that generally have more HD then you this is golden. Afterwards they count as pinned. The best Ice Beast for Engulfing bounces around based on level between elephants and fiendish centipedes/spiders. However, if you can convince you DM that your constructs don't need to follow all the normal summoning rules, and sea creatures can be summoned on land, whales are king of the pack.

Basically it's a like summoning a Monk with higher BAB, Higher HP, Immunities like crazy, Higher Str, bigger size, and an unbreakable grapple mod, oh yeah, and it strangles them while it grapples. Sure it doesn't work if they have freedom of movement, but there is something to be said for having a giant Whale pop up and grapple a Dragon, win, and let you wail on the pinned dragon.

Starbuck_II
2008-09-16, 02:03 PM
Okay, lots of things to say here:

1) You can use any creatures from Summon Natures Ally or Summon Monster. This means you get access to the Fiendish Vermin, and since most of the Ice Beast defenses are based on Size, that's a good thing.

2) Engulf has the save DC of 10 + 1/2 HD + Str. And for creatures that generally have more HD then you this is golden. Afterwards they count as pinned. The best Ice Beast for Engulfing bounces around based on level between elephants and fiendish centipedes/spiders. However, if you can convince you DM that your constructs don't need to follow all the normal summoning rules, and sea creatures can be summoned on land, whales are king of the pack.

Basically it's a like summoning a Monk with higher BAB, Higher HP, Immunities like crazy, Higher Str, bigger size, and an unbreakable grapple mod, oh yeah, and it strangles them while it grapples. Sure it doesn't work if they have freedom of movement, but there is something to be said for having a giant Whale pop up and grapple a Dragon, win, and let you wail on the pinned dragon.

That isn't a bad point. Constructs don't have water issue (they don't breath by default).

Darrin
2008-09-16, 03:22 PM
That isn't a bad point. Constructs don't have water issue (they don't breath by default).

Hmm. Well, a baleen whale doesn't have the aquatic subtype, but it doesn't have a land speed, either. Once you got out of its 15' reach, it would be immobile.

Some aquatic animals, however, such as the octopus, do have both a land and swim speed.

Summon Desert Ally works just like any other summoning spell, and specifically states that you cannot summon a creature into an environment that cannot support them. All summoning spells have similar restrictions. However, Conjure Ice Beast is a conjure (creation) spell, and does not specifically mention any environmental restriction (other than it says the spell functions in all other ways as a summon monster spell). Then again, an octopus made of ice doesn't need to breath, and can move on land, so a non-aquatic environment should support it just fine.

I have no idea what RAW would be, but I'd allow aquatic ice beasts to be created in non-aquatic environments. The baleen whale ice beast would still be immobile. Summon Desert Ally would still require an aquatic environment for dustform aquatic creatures.

Dode
2008-09-16, 04:28 PM
Qualifying: Augment Summoning is a great feat for summoners, but unfortunately requires the darned-near useless Spell Focus: Conjuration (most conjurations, particulary summoning spells, don't have saving throws). On the other hand, Grease and Glitterdust, which are cornerstone Batman-type spells, do have saving throws, so it's not a complete loss. But there is a bit of a bare patch between Glitterdust and Cloudkill. If you're a Druid/Shaman summoner, you get Arc of Lightning and Murderous Mist as Conjuration spells in Spell Compendium.

Murderous Mist especially, as it's a level 4 version of Glitterdust except it has a 30ft. radius, the blindness is permanent and the cloud itself lingers for 1 round a level. I've ended encounters in the first round with that spell.

Stupendous_Man
2008-09-16, 06:42 PM
Excellent.

My DM, after considering that the pseudonatural template is about as powerful as the default celestial and fiendish templates, has decided that the Alienist can summon pseudonatural creatures in addition to regular summoned monsters, and will consider the Rapid Summoning alternate class feature.

Dode
2008-09-16, 07:35 PM
Oh it's better than fiendish or celestial because of the increased SR and the fact that True Strike as a supernatural ability beats the hell out of Smite when dealing with disposable units.

Stupendous_Man
2008-09-16, 07:59 PM
Oh it's better than fiendish or celestial because of the increased SR and the fact that True Strike as a supernatural ability beats the hell out of Smite when dealing with disposable units.

The Charop boards seem to consider it not much better than Celestial or Fiendish... any idea why?

Dode
2008-09-16, 08:17 PM
Well, your critters won't get Darkvision 60 ft which may be a problem if your DM is a stickler for lighting issues, but other then I'd say Charop is completely off base with that.

I mean, the big advantage a summon usually has over a fighter in the party is the fact it's ginormous and usually has improved grab or similar ability.

Now say I summon an Augmented Psuedonatural Giant Crocodile, I'm going to point him at the BBEG (usually a Medium or Large-sized guy) who's going to typically not win against a +23 minimum grapple check. What matters is that you need to hit him in the first place (+33 to hit with True Strike, not so hard). If the BBEG is a caster, all the better. What's +7 damage on one hit in comparison to a reliable lockdown like that?

Now say the caster BBEG manages to squirm free to toss out a Dispel Magic at the imminent threat (your guy), well your level 5 monster has SR 17 instead of an SR 12, upping your chances that it'll waddle over and continue mauling the toughest guys in its 10ft. reach and 15ft. space.

Or for another example, with a pack of crap wolves that serve no purpose but to surround a monster in from all sides, what's better, a +2 to damage or each of them on one attack having a +20 to hit and get a free (but unlikely) trip attempt?

Chronos
2008-09-16, 09:40 PM
Remember that True Strike is a standard-action spell, and therefore the SLA is also a standard action unless otherwise specified. So you'd be spending one round summoning the critter, then it spends another round activating True Strike, and finally attacks some time on the third round: You should be able to end encounters quicker than that.

Smite, by contrast, is part of the same action as the attack, so it doesn't cost any extra time to use it.