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View Full Version : Guns and Swords; a Fantasy Wargame



Jubal_Barca
2008-09-16, 11:01 AM
I'm working on writing rules for a fantasy wargame (and/or RPG), which will be entitled Guns and Swords. Using 1:72 scale figures it will involve;

- Unusually large armies, up to 500 models a side in a mall-medium size battle
- Lots of death. Fast death.
- Pikes and rifles as well as limited fantasy (vampires and werewolves and victoriana-fantasy mostly, although I'm not ruling out rules for elves and dwarves and more traditional races in the future)
- Large selection of forces (I have about 10-12 planned initially)
- Skill/flaw selection, ancillary characters, and weaponry choice leads to very complex and individual characters leading your forces.

However, all great plans need grind to work, and I'm looking for people to help write rules, test rules, or do any other helpful things such as concept art or similar.

Particulalry I'm currently looking for someone to write the skill and ancillary tables, to allow me to concentrate on getting the core of the rules neatened and finished.

The current rulebook will always be available here;
http://www.filefactory.com/file/1418a2/n/Rulesv1_zip

AstralFire
2008-09-16, 11:15 AM
Sounds cool. Wargames aren't my thing though, if for nothing else the large amount of physical space required.

I'll pop in with something now and then if I think I can be relevant.

LongVin
2008-09-16, 11:48 AM
Sounds interesting. I would be interested in helping out.

Thane of Fife
2008-09-16, 11:56 AM
Using 1:72 scale figures it will involve;

- Unusually large armies, up to 500 models a side in a mall-medium size battle

Are you going to be basing these miniatures as units or as individuals? If you're planning on one-man-per-base, then 1/72nd scale could be a bit on the small side.

Also, you say that you want lots of fast death, but very individual characters. Those seem to be somewhat opposing ideas, in my opinion, as you're liable to find that characters can die very quickly.


And I don't think that pikes and Victorian-era really go together (although I could be mistaken). Indeed, pikes are usually grouped with muskets, not rifles.

Jubal_Barca
2008-09-16, 01:02 PM
The era is kind of historically stretched out over about 150 years military wise (say 1700-1850) to provide more variation, as are many other fantasy wargames (Warhammer has no timeperiod at all, stretching from the renaissance (empire) back to the stone age (savage orcs) for example).

The characters don't die fast, although in theory they're little better than a normal trooper, just with leadering bonuses given to surroundng troops. They have various protective rules (and will be given more with skills), with lowly officers (although quite possible to individualise) having less and generals more. Just because a character is individual and possibly expensive doesn't necessarily give him a long life guarantee though - protecting expensive characters will be a major worry for character heavy players. The battles will be more decided on the troops though - there will be no all-conquering heroes that can mash entire enemy units single handedly.

1-man per base is the plan (I have two small forces painted up at the scale). I know they're small and possibly fiddly, but as long as you make sure the bases are flattish it's not too much bother, and it allows you to buy vastly larger armies for a vastly cheaper price than larger scale stuff.

I'll post a list of the descriptions of the first fe armis I'm working on soon, and the WIP rulebook probably.

charl
2008-09-16, 05:15 PM
For that time period you really wouldn't see any troops (among Europeans anyway) that use anything else than missile weapons. Before the Napoleonic wars melee regiments could still be encountered but during and after those it went out of style. Rifles, muskets, crossbows (actually a lot more common than generally thought), even the occasional machine gun in the later 1800s (Gatling gun (The OriginalTM), those multi-shot guns the French used against Prussia).
Now since this is fantasy you can of course ignore this completely (Warhammer fantasy does this with the Empire, which uses machine guns, sniper rifles and automatic pistols as well as pike formations and 15th century cavalry) and have armies using a mix of melee weapons and firearms.
Though I personally would really like to see a historical 19th century era-style army (say mid-1800s) with vampires and werewolves in it. Would be kind of interesting to see what Her Majesty's Royal Vampire guard would be able to do for the empire that never goes without sunlight (might be a bit of a problem with attrition rates.) ;)
Another thing you could do is add a little steampunk flavor to the setting. It's not a long leap from Victorian era (which strictly speaking btw lasts from about 1840 to 1890) to military airships and steam-powered warmachines, after all.
Lastly, if you want to include some pre-victorian warfare I'd suggest looking at Napoleon for inspiration. Especially his occasional use of hot-air balloons as mobile scouting posts could be made into balloons used as firing platforms.

Jubal_Barca
2008-09-17, 02:36 PM
A bit more background;

The map looks more like a map of America than Europe, with the European style factions on the far east of the continent, with some native/shamanic factions in the interior, and 'eastern' factions in the west.

Races;
Union of Industrialised States
Occupies a large chunk of the coast. Highly industrial, plenty of cheap troops, quite an easy faction to play
+ points;
+ Good cavalry made up of the nobility
+ Vampires are accepted among the nobility, so you get access to them as a character skill list and ancillaries.
+ Lots of cheap troops and slave troops
+ Cheap artillery due to industry
- Points;
- Low morale
- Weak troops
- Characters generally weak
- Little access to magical stuff
- Few Powerful gamewinning units, rely on attrition

Flintland
Directly south of the Union, protected by mountains and rivers on its border, but a small and very battle-hardened nation with little trust of outsiders. Their troops are conscripts who are nevertheless often outnumbered... but rarely outfought.
+ points;
+ Tough infantry
+ High morale
+ Tough characters good in combat
+ Reasonable artillery, good at digging in and holding positions
- Points;
- Poor cavalry
- Expensive troops
- Little access to magical stuff
- Again few powerful gamewinning units, rely on attrition

Jamesland
Directly south of Flintland, but curves round with borders close to the Union in the far north of the country. Wealthy and large, it has small professional armies with few civilians being trained in fighting.
+ points;
+ High quality infantry and heavy cavalry
+ High morale
+ Characters good in duels
+ Reasonable artillery with acess to some specialised items
- Points;
- Poor basic troops
- Expensive high-level troops
- Characters often poorer leaders
- Almost always outnumbered.

Nurreich
Southwest of the Union, Nurreich was formerly the City State of Nurd before its expansion into a small kingdom. It is characterised by colourful political infighting, with small armies, and with the maniacal inventions that seem to somehow end up protecting the country against the odds
+ points;
+ Steampunk!
+ Poweful shooting
+ Engineer skill list
+ Excellent artillery
+ Big range of equipment options
- Points;
- Horrifically outnumbered
- Expensive troops
- Characters often have rules-based infighting problems

The New Papacy
The Papcay was traditionally based on the Green Coast (south of Jamesland) but relocated after a dispute with the merchants that ruled the great city of Roulenna where it was based. After summoning a hurricane that blasted the city into oblivion, the Papacy went North and carved a new Papal State in the hills of the west of the Union
+ points;
+ Faith rules provide powerful antimagic/antivamps/antiwolves and summonation of seraphs and avenging angels
+ Elite troops
+ Access to extremely powerful character upgrades
+ Access to gargoyles, witch hunters (Van Helsing is TOTALLY coming to town)
- Points;
- Horrifically outnumbered. All the time. Totally. If you're enemy doesn't outnumber you ,either they're doing something badly wrong or you've slaughtered them and it's the end of the battle.

Thats about half of them; I'll post the rest tomorrow night, so stay tuned folks!

@Charl;
I am going to rather screw over the idea of no combat troops, gunlines often make a battle pretty boring. There will be plenty shooty and some quite realistic forces, but some pike and sabre armed troops too.

puppyavenger
2008-09-17, 05:39 PM
soo, who gets magic things?

Jubal_Barca
2008-09-18, 11:45 AM
Continued (and this should answer your question);

People's Glorious Republic of Eoram
The Glorious Revolution against the eletie of the Union was, by most standards, a pathetic failure. The revolutionaries were confined to the tiny isle of Eoram... where they remain to this day, still trying to incite revolt and bring Rule by The People to the outside world.
+ Points;
+ Plenty of troops
+ Good Morale
+ Effective leaders
- Points;
- Little to no artillery
- Weak cavalry
- Poor offensively

Principality of Wassenbach
Wassenbach is the main principality to the northwest of the Union. It is larger than is three smaller neighbours, and specialises in using illusions and trickery to allow it to win battles
+ Points;
+ Very powerful cavalry
+ Powerful Illusionist magic
+ Reasonable Morale
+ Excellent leaders
- Points;
- Little to no artillery
- Poor defensive force

Principality of Lossan
North of Wassenbach, backed into the mountains, Lossan is a place where it is though Vampirism originated, and here there are still reclusive Vampires and Werewolves in secretive mountain enclaves. The population are tough and hardy and hate outsiders, but make doughty and powerful warriors at need.
+ Points;
+ Very powerful in melee
+ Powerful magic
+ Access to werewolve and vampires
+ Excellent leaders who excel in combat
- Points;
- Little to no artillery or cavalry
- Few truly elite troops

Kingdom of Saxonia
West of Wassenbach, between the border and the great river, is the small and comparatively quiet land of Saxonia. Thier horsemen excel, and are much in demand as mercenaries.
+ Points;
+ Very powerful cavalry
+ Magic boosts mounted regiments
+ Often quite large forces
+ Native scouts can be recruited
- Points;
- Infantry is poor with artillery not very powerful
- Exteremely weak in defense

Kingdom of Aloena
Bordering the Union ant one end, Loen nestles in the North of the central mountains. A tiny kingdom, these lands were part of the client kingdom of Halan, annexed by the Union three years ago. However Duchess Alexandra of Aloena, a prominent noble and socialite, left the party scene she had been born into and in a surprise of the Union forces conducted a vicious, brutal and coordinated guerilla war that after a year and a half of intense warfare left Loen proudly independent and the Union ofrces in disarray. Her use of mages to bolster her ranks led to disapporval among her papal neighbours, but she persisted, and many Mages find jobs in the court of Queen Alexandra.
+ Points;
+ Very good scouting and tactical force
+ Powerful all-round magic
+ Good at skirmishing
+ Excellent leaders who excel in combat
- Points;
- Poor if caught in a direct shootout or melee
- Little cavalry

There are six more (two of which are mercenary lists) and they will appaer tomorrow, I have an orchestra rehersal now.

Also on Friday or Saturday (Orchestras permitting) a map will appear.

Jubal_Barca
2008-09-20, 04:08 PM
The last few;

The Kanawa Confederacy
The Kanawa natives are in fact off the map I'm going to post later, out to the west on the eastern part of the Great Plains. They are an all-cavalry race with powerful shamanic traditions and have (arguably) the best light cavalry in the game.
+ Points;
+ Almost unbeatable at light skirmish cavalry
+ Fast and manouevrable
+ Shamans summon powerful ancestor gods to your side
- Points;
- No artillery at all
- Almost no infantry
- Poor in defence

The Ohrawa Tribes
The Ohrawa are the main Natives who occupy most of the land between the central mountains and the inland Great Lake. They loosely occupy everywhere between Nurreich and Wissenbach/Saxonia, and are excellent scouts and trackers
+ Points;
+ Aggressive melee fighting and good tactical possibilities
+ Shamans summon powerful ancestor gods to your side (orawa has perhaps the best mages of all the factions)
- Points;
- No artillery at all
- Cavalry relatively weak

The Quanara Kingdom
The Quanara occupy everywhere between the Transalpine mountains and Nurreich. This small tribe of natives split from the great Tribal Councils of the Ohrawa to form a tough state inspired by their more technologically advanced neighbours. hey have been trying to train armies that technologically are more than a match for their Union neighbours...
+ Points;
+ Mixes native soutig and Shamanic bonuses with traditional gun-armed warfare
+ Native Riflement are capable at shooting and also effective close combat fighters
- Points;
- Not the best at any skills

Principality of Laredo
Laredo is a large town on the far side of the great lake. It operates as a mercenary and piratic principality, a harbour from the law back out east, and a place wehre every willing gunsman can find a willing bag of coin...
+ Points;
+ Good Scouting
+ Individually very effective troops
- Points;
- Potential for infighting in your ranks
- Artillery relatively weak
- Little powerful ranged weaponary
- Practically no magic

Settlers and Gunslingers (merc. list)
Settlers, and 'cowboy' style mercs, slitghtly similar to Laredo.

Swords for hire (merc. list)
Varius traditional type mercs to augment people's armies.

Knaight
2008-09-20, 07:04 PM
http://www.fudgefactor.org/2005/08/fudge-miniatures-battles.html

These could work well for the basics, for individuals in particular, then you just have a bunch of nameless, faceless soldiers, who die in one successful hit but still have the other stats.

Jubal_Barca
2008-09-21, 08:44 AM
http://files.filefront.com/Rulesv1zip/;11852375;/f

The WIP rulebook and an example of a VERY wip army supplement.

Thane of Fife
2008-09-21, 12:12 PM
I'v got to say that those rules look rather complicated for a game where each side will have around 500 men. In particular, the rule for leaving wounded men on the field seems like it would be a nightmare. Since you intend to have heavy lethality, it seems likely that lots of people will be left wounded but alive, and the table could get extremely crowded.

Second, I think that Cavalry Panic should probably be roll for unit, not per model - horses are herd animals and, though I don't know for certain, I suspect that if one horse bolts then the rest are likely to follow.

EDIT: Sorry about being negative, but I tend to focus on flaws I see - its just how I review things.

Jubal_Barca
2008-09-21, 01:23 PM
If that's the worst of it, I'm hopeful. :smallsmile:

So basically should I edit it so wounded troops are removed (but still with the half points given) or should I simply redraw the line at either able to fight or dead?

And for cav panic;

CAVALRY PANIC
If cavalry charge an enemy with a melee weapon that panics cavalry or are shot at by a shooting weapon (or, more likely, artillery piece) that panics cavalry, the unit must take a test on the unit's mounts' nerve on the loss table as if they had been fired on by a terrifying weapon. If the unit fails the horses bolt and the cavalry flee away from the enemy that caused the fear.

Better?

Jubal_Barca
2008-09-23, 11:34 AM
Hum ho...

I'm working on a version of the map that is actually readable, my drawing is frankly hopeless.

Meanwhile, if anyone else has rules suggestions/queries, or would like to start writing skill lists (see the ones at the end of the core ruleboook for a starter), I'm waiting for feedback.

Also, if anyone wants to write an army book up, please PM or post here.

AstralFire
2008-09-23, 11:46 AM
You may wish to edit your first post and put the link up to your rulebook there. I'd forgotten you posted the link earlier so my response was "well maybe I could help if I knew what the rules were..."

I need to do some major updating of Anteheroes and I also need to go over some stuff for one of my other homebrews, but I've downloaded your book to take a look through.

Jubal_Barca
2008-09-23, 12:02 PM
First post updated with rulebook, thanks for the heads-up.

Thanks for taking a look as well of course, great to see people willing to give up a bit of time to my little project.

AstralFire
2008-09-23, 03:27 PM
First thing that comes to mind, what is the principle die size being used? You mention "roll off" a lot, but just glancing I didn't see what size of die you were using.

Jubal_Barca
2008-09-24, 11:54 AM
Oops, sorry, it's d6 (I'll add that in).

I'm so used to using d6 (never having played a game using any other sort of dice), I didn't even thing of using a d10 or whatever.

AstralFire
2008-09-24, 11:56 AM
Oops, sorry, it's d6 (I'll add that in).

I'm so used to using d6 (never having played a game using any other sort of dice), I didn't even thing of using a d10 or whatever.

Figured as much. But yeah, 'round these parts lots of dice get used, so I thought I'd check.

Well, I'm off to register to vote and get my car fixed, but I'll take another look when I get back then.

Yakk
2008-09-24, 02:28 PM
So, you want Guns and Swords to be effective.

In the real world during this period, Swords where useless as anything except an backup or honor weapon, as massed ranged troops could slaughter massed charging troops -- cavalry was useful during this period, admittedly.

Some kind of ability to ward yourself from gunpowder-style weapons, but it also makes it impossible for you to use the weapons yourself?

Then again, I'm not a military historian.

Spiryt
2008-09-24, 02:34 PM
So, you want Guns and Swords to be effective.

In the real world during this period, Swords where useless as anything except an backup or honor weapon, as massed ranged troops could slaughter massed charging troops -- cavalry was useful during this period, admittedly.


At what period?

Anyway, I've read somewhere that in Napoleonic period, even up to 85% of people killed by infantry were killed by the bayonet attack.

Of course bayonet is not a sword, but that's not the matter here - I meant that even in XIX century, massed ranged fire weren't so effective to actually stop a mass of charging man.

Of course, considering some equal forces of equal men, charging force will most certainly loose, as it will enter the melee decimated. Although usually special forces were used to this - the biggest and strongest, soldiers - grenadiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenadier).

All depends on distance, but basically up to the XIX century, melee figthing isn't really completly forgotten.

Jubal_Barca
2008-09-24, 02:50 PM
The swords are mostly on cavalry, line infantry use bayonets.

The formations cover most of this; spread formations give penalties to shooting at them, whereas line forations give ranked shooting, or columns give combat bonuses based on numbers of ranks.

Also, this is fantasy; it's not always that mass of men charging you need to be worried about, it might well be the 10 guys on the left who are about to turn werewolf and rip your cannons to shreds. :smallbiggrin:

AstralFire
2008-09-24, 03:33 PM
Sorry, I'm looking at this and I keep getting lost and realizing, more than anything, that I don't know about strategy wargames. =\

Jubal_Barca
2008-09-24, 03:45 PM
Well I'm planning to make a side-by-side set of RPG rules after I've got a working strategy version...

Jubal_Barca
2008-10-22, 02:30 PM
Bumparoo!

I'm still at work on this, and I'm looking for someone to have a go at starting on the skill tables in bulk.