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Isomenes
2008-09-16, 11:48 AM
So our LGS got the books in today, and happily I managed to make it through torrential rains and secure the copy I had pre-ordered.

There are lots of tasty items in there. According to the book, it's been designed for use in the FR, but also as a splatbook, adaptable to any setting. Looking at it for the last couple hours now, it seems that it's about 50-60% crunch, mostly in the feats, powers, rituals, and paragon paths, and the rest is FR fluff that can be ignored, rejoiced over, or wept at. There's a section called Backgrounds, with blurbs on the various regions of the FR, and then there's an Almanac at the back covering deities, calendars, etc. I suppose it's a half-decent intro to FR to those who have never played in it, and the ideas can be borrowed for use in other settings.

Most interesting, to my surprise, is the sheer array of paragon paths (a full 25). Some are tied to races/classes in the book, like swordmage or genasi paths, but others are useful for the PHB base classes. Also, there are a number of helpful rituals, and they seem cheaper than the average PHB ritual in both monetary cost and time to complete. The Channel Divinity feats are fairly interesting, focusing on saving throws, healing, and small buffs. (One of them essentially duplicates the Elven Accuracy racial power, but for dwarves.) And the rest of the feats are fairly useful, focusing almost exclusively on the Heroic Tier. As I had hoped, there is a Swordmage multiclass feat, but it is restricted to the Shielding ward.

It's rather disappointing that only one epic destiny is laid out in this book, namely the Chosen. It's a divine destiny, and essentially uses most of the attributes of the Demigod destiny. The powers differ based on which god chose you. In a word: lame.

Overall, it's handy to have, and worth it if you can get it on the cheap (i.e., Amazon). It's fairly thin at 159 pages, so it seems like something that a group might get a copy of to share rather than a must-have for each player.

Blackfang108
2008-09-16, 11:51 AM
*snip*

Thanks for the overview. I'm looking forward to read over the Epic Destiny. I may find a use for it.

RTGoodman
2008-09-16, 11:53 AM
For those of us who haven't managed to take a look at a copy, could you list and/or describe some of the paragon paths and stuff? I'm not a big FR player, but I'd be interested to see some of the stuff that could be used in non-FR settings.

(Also, since I'm playing in a FR pbp all-goblinoid campaign, are there any cool feats or PPs for goblinoids, and especially bugbears, in the Realms? I doubt it, but one can dream...)

Charity
2008-09-16, 12:12 PM
Anarch of Shyr
Coronal Guard
Darkwalker
Doomguide
Drow Wanderer
Eartheart Defender
Elemental Tempest
Evermeet Warlock
Ghost of Eventide
Heartwarder
High Forest Scout
Impilturan Demonslayer
Morninglord
Purple Dragon Knight
Silverstar
Simbarch of Aglarond
Spellguard Wizard
Spellscarred Savant
Steelsky Liberator
Sword Coast Corsair
Umbriri
Wandering Swordmage
War Wizard of Cormyr
Whirlwind Genasi
Wildfire Genasi

Too many to describe.

Starsinger
2008-09-16, 12:17 PM
I will however take a moment to describe a few notables

Darkwalker- Dark Pact Warlock PP
Doomguide- Undead Slayer PP
Eartheart Defender- Dwarven Defender for 4e
Evermeet Warlock- General Warlock PP (not tied to a pact!)
Silverstar- PP that requires implement use.
Spellscarred Savant- It's like a Paragon Multiclass Paragon Path combo, or something.
Whirlwind Genasi- Really a controller. Can manuever enemy and allied creatures via flight and forced movement.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-16, 12:21 PM
Darkwalker- Dark Pact Warlock PP

Oooo, what's it have to say about the Dark Pact? Anything nifty?

ShaggyMarco
2008-09-16, 12:24 PM
The ones I remember:

Darkwalker: Dark-Pact PP for Dark Pact Warlocks
Doomguide: Good divine PP that is great anti-undead and good at other times
Drow Wanderer: Underdark adventurer
Eartheart Defender: Dwarven Defender of 4ed
Elemental Tempest: Genasi racial (I think...)
Evermeet Warlock: Eladrin-focused Warlock with some teleport benefits.
High Forest Scout: Archer PP
Impilturan Demonslayer: Good against demons; not great otherwise
Morninglord: Light powers (suprisingly, not all anti-undead, all of the time)
Purple Dragon Knight (See FR preview online)
Silverstar (Selune Arcane/Divine PP--Lycanthrope themed)
Simbarch of Aglarond (Arcane healing and unusual use of magic)
Spellscarred Savant (Expert with spellscars, and interesting Multi-class feat option that doesn't actually include a class)
Steelsky Liberator (Anti-dragon. Pretty decent if I remember correctly)
Sword Coast Corsair (PIRATE! Pretty cool)
Umbriri (Darkness-themed Swordmage)
Wandering Swordmage (the name says it all)
War Wizard of Cormyr (BOOM!)
Whirlwind Genasi (Wind Genasi)
Wildfire Genasi (Fire Genasi)

I deleted the ones I couldn't remember anything about. I just flipped through the book last night, so some of these may not be acurate.

I feel that, for a Player's Guide, they got this one just right. All of the really heavy fluff is in the Campaign Guide.

Starsinger
2008-09-16, 12:27 PM
Oooo, what's it have to say about the Dark Pact? Anything nifty?

The dark pact is very nifty, and my new favorite pact. One of my favorite powers is called "Your Delicious Weakness" and it does psychic damage, unless the target has a vulnerability to a damage type, then it does that type of damage. The pact bonus for Dark locks? It does psychic damage also.

I can't help but think how sexy Psychic Lock will be with a Dark Warlock. Dark Pact has a lot of Psychic and Necrotic powers, with the occasional Force or Poison.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-16, 12:34 PM
The dark pact is very nifty, and my new favorite pact. One of my favorite powers is called "Your Delicious Weakness" and it does psychic damage, unless the target has a vulnerability to a damage type, then it does that type of damage. The pact bonus for Dark locks? It does psychic damage.

I can't help but think how sexy Psychic Lock will be with a Dark Warlock. Dark Pact has a lot of Psychic and Necrotic powers, with the occasional Force or Poison.

Man, they really pulled out the stops on these power names. I foresee a whole of of S&M themed Darklocks in the future :smalltongue:

How's Spellscarred Savant stack up to traditional MC PP? Is it strictly better, worse, or just different?

Starsinger
2008-09-16, 12:36 PM
How's Spellscarred Savant stack up to traditional MC PP? Is it strictly better, worse, or just different?

There are a whole list of Spellscarred powers and uhh... I don't really know. Sorry. It's a bit like a regular Paragon Path though, it has like PP features. Instead of an encounter and daily power, you just learn some from the Spellscared Savant powers (because the SsS powers are available to multiclass in or something.)

Matthew
2008-09-16, 12:41 PM
I like the pictures on pages 22-3 and 74-5. :smallbiggrin:

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-16, 12:42 PM
There are a whole list of Spellscarred powers and uhh... I don't really know. Sorry. It's a bit like a regular Paragon Path though, it has like PP features. Instead of an encounter and daily power, you just learn some from the Spellscared Savant powers (because the SsS powers are available to multiclass in or something.)

Ah. I was hoping they had fixed MC PP. Nifty though.

Are the Channel Divinity Feats better than the Core ones, or do they follow suit?

ShaggyMarco
2008-09-16, 12:48 PM
They tend, in my opinion, to, in general, follow suit with the strongest of the core powers, and to range to a little above those. Not so much as you can tell that any are so clearly broken.

There are certainly some that seem more generally useful than others.

As for Darklocks: They have lots of powers that require sacrifices from allies (which, by necessity, would have to be voluntary since all allies can chose to NOT be the target of a power that targets allies) in order to work, or even to get better. The 29th level daily does this--the more damage it deals to your allies, the more damage you can deal in one big blast.

Starsinger
2008-09-16, 12:49 PM
Some are better than others, but like the Core channel divinity feats, they're still very situational. I have to say though, Ilmater's Channel Divinity is my favorite. Tempus' Channel Divinity is very sweet though.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-16, 12:52 PM
OK, last question (for at least a couple of hours):

What does the Sword Coast Corsair PP do? Is it silly like Dread Pirate, or did they really capture the pirate-y flavor? And how?

(also: September 19th (http://www.talklikeapirate.com/), you scurvy dogs! :smalltongue:)

Starsinger
2008-09-16, 12:56 PM
OK, last question (for at least a couple of hours):

What does the Sword Coast Corsair PP do? Is it silly like Dread Pirate, or did they really capture the pirate-y flavor? And how?

(also: September 19th (http://www.talklikeapirate.com/), you scurvy dogs! :smalltongue:)

It seems Piratey to me. Actually, it seems very swashbucklery to me, but more piratey

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-16, 01:01 PM
It seems Piratey to me. Actually, it seems very swashbucklery to me, but more piratey

But how? Do they have an Insult Duel Encounter Power or something?

I'm very demanding of the Internets :smalltongue:

Starsinger
2008-09-16, 01:06 PM
But how? Do they have an Insult Duel Encounter Power or something?

I'm very demanding of the Internets :smalltongue:

They have a bonus to skill checks on a boat, and they have an in your face ability or two. Plus they push, and it seems very reminiscent (atleast to me) of a pirate swinging from a rope and kicking someone off the ship.

Isomenes
2008-09-16, 01:12 PM
But how? Do they have an Insult Duel Encounter Power or something?

I'm very demanding of the Internets :smalltongue:

Mostly in the guts and glory, arr-I'm-a-pirate sense. +2 to most checks relating to seafaring, +2 to speed ("Sea Legs") when you spend an action point, and power names like Strike Terror, Nerves of Steel, and Keelhaul (which looks like a fun power to use--you get to shift and drag an enemy along with you for 3 squares on a hit). It looks as if a party of Corsairs could be really, really nasty in a fight depending on the makeup of the classes they took.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-16, 01:17 PM
Mostly in the guts and glory, arr-I'm-a-pirate sense. +2 to most checks relating to seafaring, +2 to speed ("Sea Legs") when you spend an action point, and power names like Strike Terror, Nerves of Steel, and Keelhaul (which looks like a fun power to use--you get to shift and drag an enemy along with you for 3 squares on a hit). It looks as if a party of Corsairs could be really, really nasty in a fight depending on the makeup of the classes they took.

Sweet! I would houserule that any Corsair that spends an action point must say something pirate-y; at least a good throaty arrrrrrrr :smallbiggrin:

Isomenes
2008-09-16, 02:00 PM
For those of us who haven't managed to take a look at a copy, could you list and/or describe some of the paragon paths and stuff? I'm not a big FR player, but I'd be interested to see some of the stuff that could be used in non-FR settings.

(Also, since I'm playing in a FR pbp all-goblinoid campaign, are there any cool feats or PPs for goblinoids, and especially bugbears, in the Realms? I doubt it, but one can dream...)

Alas, no feats/PPs for goblinoids. Though the maligned half-orc gets an actual fluff entry!

ColdSepp
2008-09-16, 02:11 PM
And almost no general feats. I was mildly disappointed. Overall, though, I like it. Next PC will likely use the book, but there is nothing for my Dragonborn Paladin that would be useful.

Doomguide, maybe.... but it's really anti undead focused.

Starsinger
2008-09-16, 02:13 PM
And almost no general feats. I was mildly disappointed. Overall, though, I like it. Next PC will likely use the book, but there is nothing for my Dragonborn Paladin that would be useful.

Doomguide, maybe.... but it's really anti undead focused.

I was really looking forward to some new at-wills for laser clerics. Cuz I don't really wanna wait for the Divine Sourcebook...

RTGoodman
2008-09-16, 03:35 PM
Those sound pretty intriguing, but as it turns out my local B&N (a.k.a. the only place 'round these parts that sells D&D stuff) hasn't stocked any 4E stuff besides the Core books and the Heroic-tier adventures (and minis, but I don't think anyone actually buys those). Guess I'll just have to wait and see if I can at least see some of it on the D&DI Compendium at some point, since I'd prefer not to buy a (relatively expensive) book without looking through it first.


Alas, no feats/PPs for goblinoids. Though the maligned half-orc gets an actual fluff entry!

Oh, well - I guess there's always the Eberron stuff for more goblinoid goodies, in Fall 2009 (if I recall correctly). Or I guess I could do some homebrewing, too, but that's much more complicated than just flipping through an already-printed book. :smalltongue:

Leicontis
2008-09-16, 03:44 PM
So were the reports true that 4E is set 90 years after 3.5, and many of the locations, groups, and NPCs we've come to love over the past 3 1/2 editions are destroyed, missing, dead, etc.? A major part of whether I'm going to play 4E much at all revolves around not having to relearn the geography and politics of FR.

Starsinger
2008-09-16, 03:52 PM
So were the reports true that 4E is set 90 years after 3.5, and many of the locations, groups, and NPCs we've come to love over the past 3 1/2 editions are destroyed, missing, dead, etc.? A major part of whether I'm going to play 4E much at all revolves around not having to relearn the geography and politics of FR.

It's true. The first few pages of the book spell out what's different (Not in as much detail as the Campaign Setting I'm sure.)

bosssmiley
2008-09-16, 04:16 PM
I like the pictures on pages 22-3 and 74-5. :smallbiggrin:

pp22-23? Are you high? :smallconfused:

The art is a mixed bag overall. The PrC Paragon Path exemplars on pp25, 50, 59 & 64 are unintentionally comical, and pointy eared dandelion-eaters are grotesquely over-represented, but I like the bit of piratical rough trade on pg93. He is teh sexay. :smallwink:

The content seems workmanlike. Not being a 4E-ist I can't speak about balance or twink synergy potential of the classes, races or powers.

The fluff is there is a little general in places, but then I suppose it's not supposed to be your full-on Realmslore info dump. There is a striking omission from the list of male Drow names on pg9 though. :smalltongue:

Starsinger
2008-09-16, 04:20 PM
The fluff is there is a little general in places, but then I suppose it's not supposed to be your full-on Realmslore info dump. There is a striking omission from the list of male Drow names on pg9 though. :smalltongue:

It's not missing. Those are typical names. And Drizz't is unique, all of his clones. :smalltongue:

Frosty
2008-09-16, 04:34 PM
Did they spend a lot of time on the major NPCs in Faerun? Any mention of Elminster?

Isomenes
2008-09-16, 04:54 PM
Did they spend a lot of time on the major NPCs in Faerun? Any mention of Elminster?

Not a whit of it. In the Backgrounds section, they detail the sort of people who might emerge from a given region--possible backgrounds and motivations, really. Some major figures (Simbul, for instance) are mentioned, but strictly in passing. Which, to my mind, is best; it puts the storytelling control in the hands of the DM.

Tengu_temp
2008-09-17, 06:22 PM
pp22-23? Are you high? :smallconfused:

The art is a mixed bag overall. The PrC Paragon Path exemplars on pp25, 50, 59 & 64 are unintentionally comical, and pointy eared dandelion-eaters are grotesquely over-represented, but I like the bit of piratical rough trade on pg93. He is teh sexay. :smallwink:


I can see the comical element in the Morninglord, but in the others? Not so much. Maybe I missed something.

My favorite artwork from the book? Page 68, Wandering Swordmage.

Colmarr
2008-09-17, 10:45 PM
I'm a first-time FR player (but long-time D&D player). Here's my $0.02. Disclaimer: I haven't had a chance to read the book cover to cover yet.

1. The books is a little thinner than I thought it would be.

2. The artwork is better than I expected. I would rate it above the PHB. Some illustrations (the Doomguide springs to mind) blow my mind, and others (the cleric battling the zombie - feats chapter intro?) were really evocative. As others have said, some are disappointing (Morninglord and Purple Dragon Knight).

3. The Almanac section is GREAT for a first time realms player. It gives you all the information that you need to know, without having to read 80 pages of meaningless info. I was a bit disappointed in the section on the Calendar of Years. I think it should at the very least have included some notable years from the past (such as the Year of Blue Fire).

4. Most of the crunch is very specific and I was somewhat annoyed that so much attention was given to Drow and Genasi. There is very little in the book that is directly relevant to my human cleric of Tempus.

5. The backgrounds section seemed cool (haven't really delved into it yet), again providing just enough info without overloading the reader. If each nation had been detailed to the extent of the dragon magazine Corymr article, my head would have exploded.

6. While on the topic of the backgrounds section, I was shocked to realise that the FRPG does not include a world map! I had intended to closely read the section related to nations around Cormyr and only lightly skim those nations further away (so that my player knowledge matched my character knowledge). Unfortunately, without a world map I can't tell what to read and what not to read.

7. Other posters are correct in noting that there are a zillion PPs. 4e is not the respite from the 3.5e PrC plague that some people were hoping it would be. Despite that, most of the PPs are quite interesting.

Grynning
2008-09-17, 10:48 PM
My favorite artwork from the book? Page 68, Wandering Swordmage.

Me too, but that's mainly because she's hot :smalltongue:

Dark Tira
2008-09-18, 01:00 AM
So does a swordmage wielding a spiked shield main hand and nothing off hand gain both the shield bonus and swordmage warding bonus to AC? Seems like they imply it can only be used either as a shield or a weapon at any one time but it's not actually said.

Matthew
2008-09-18, 01:09 AM
pp22-23? Are you high? :smallconfused:

Possibly, but I still like it. That whole autumn deal in the background and crazy light sabre stuff. I dunno, maybe I'm just gradually becoming desensitised to the whole 4e art scene... At least there's some friggin' action,the majority of the art has everybody standing around having their photographs taken. :smallbiggrin:



The art is a mixed bag overall. The PrC Paragon Path exemplars on pp25, 50, 59 & 64 are unintentionally comical, and pointy eared dandelion-eaters are grotesquely over-represented, but I like the bit of piratical rough trade on pg93. He is teh sexay. :smallwink:

They are indeed comical, I wouldn't know about that last bit, though...

Edea
2008-09-18, 01:49 AM
Gravity of Moment made my jaw drop. What in the hell is WotC thinking publishing that?!

Kurald Galain
2008-09-18, 02:59 AM
Imho,

The good stuff:
* Drow and Genasi are solid choices for race.
* Swordmage is an interesting class.
* Haven't read the PPs yet but there's a lot of them.
* The background info is good, but I wonder why it wasn't in the first FR guide?

The bad stuff:
* I really don't like giving mechanical benefits for regions; it encourages people to choose a birth region for Whichever Gives The Most Pluses, rather than RP reasons.
* The feats section isn't all that interesting unless you're a drow, genasi, swordmage, or cleric.
* Yet more rituals that aren't useful in actual gameplay.

Overall I'd say the book is primarily useful if you're actually going to play in the FR, and much less useful as some random splatbook. Well, except for the swordmage part.

ColdSepp
2008-09-18, 06:56 AM
Maybe it's me, but I am not sure how a Swordmage will play at high levels. They seem rather like Monks in some ways.

Your primary attack stat is INT. Most of your Powers work off it.
You use Heavy Blade/Light Blades.
The feat tree for Mastery of said Blades needs STR 21/Dex 17
Your Aegis is tied to you CON.
Your metal defense is tied to WIS or CHA

It seems to my you are going to need to pump at least STR/DEX/INT to get the most out of it. And considering the roles for INT/STR/DEX all overlap, it is odd.

Shadow_Elf
2008-09-18, 07:05 AM
Maybe it's me, but I am not sure how a Swordmage will play at high levels. They seem rather like Monks in some ways.

Your primary attack stat is INT. Most of your Powers work off it.
You use Heavy Blade/Light Blades.
The feat tree for Mastery of said Blades needs STR 21/Dex 17
Your Aegis is tied to you CON.
Your metal defense is tied to WIS or CHA

It seems to my you are going to need to pump at least STR/DEX/INT to get the most out of it. And considering the roles for INT/STR/DEX all overlap, it is odd.

Most Classes (ranger and Warlord excluded) have primary stats that overlap. You don't particularly need all three for one build though.

What sort of stats for PCs on Drow? I am wondering whether I should get this, but it would be primarily as a splatbook.

Tengu_temp
2008-09-18, 10:04 AM
Maybe it's me, but I am not sure how a Swordmage will play at high levels. They seem rather like Monks in some ways.

Your primary attack stat is INT. Most of your Powers work off it.
You use Heavy Blade/Light Blades.
The feat tree for Mastery of said Blades needs STR 21/Dex 17
Your Aegis is tied to you CON.
Your metal defense is tied to WIS or CHA

It seems to my you are going to need to pump at least STR/DEX/INT to get the most out of it. And considering the roles for INT/STR/DEX all overlap, it is odd.

Well, paladins, melee clerics and warlords are heavily MAD too, if you want to invest in your weapon feats. And while it's hard, it is doable:
Eladrin Swordmage, 14 str, 14 con, 13+2 dex, 16+2 int, 10 wis or cha, 8 cha or wis. Improve strength and intelligence at each level. You qualify for Heavy Blade Opportunity at level 11 and Heavy Blade Mastery at level 24, while still having almost maxed-out intelligence. With Demigod/Chosen, you can have HBM at level 21.
(Also works for a genasi - start with the same base stats, but improve dexterity instead of strength at levels 8 and 18 or 24).
It's harder to qualify if you want to be a defensive swordmage, but since they're mostly tanks, they don't need those feats that badly.

From a glance on their powers, swordmages have lower damage potential than fighters and paladins. But it's understandable - fighter is a defender with striker elements, paladin has leader elements, and swordmage has controller elements. He has two melee aoe at-wills!

Isomenes
2008-09-18, 04:18 PM
4. Most of the crunch is very specific and I was somewhat annoyed that so much attention was given to Drow and Genasi. There is very little in the book that is directly relevant to my human cleric of Tempus.

I think this does detract from it--a handful of feats aimed at the PHB races/classes, the Channel Divinity feats (some of which only serve to duplicate other racial encounter powers), and then your necessary new race/class feats. But it is nice to have stacking saving throw bonuses as a human! My cleric of homebrew gods has Human Perseverance, and at level 4 will take Stubborn Survivor. I have no reason to be stingy with action points anymore!

Colmarr
2008-09-18, 05:15 PM
I'm not saying that the possibilities for core races are negligible, but there's certainly more in the book for drow and genasi than all the other races put together.

Having said that, I do like the fact that they have given a minor difference to Moon Elves and Sun Elves (both eladrin) in that the respective feats are mututally exclusive.

Strangely, there is no such mechanical distinction made between copper (wood) elves and green (wild) elves or between gold dwarves and shield dwarves. I only realised this morning (after reading the feats for the third time), that the Gold Dwarf Pride and Shield the Fallen feats only has a pre-requisite of "Dwarf" and have no exclusivity clause.

ColdSepp
2008-09-18, 05:40 PM
I'm not saying that the possibilities for core races are negligible, but there's certainly more in the book for drow and genasi than all the other races put together.

Having said that, I do like the fact that they have given a minor difference to Moon Elves and Sun Elves (both eladrin) in that the respective feats are mututally exclusive.

Strangely, there is no such mechanical distinction made between copper (wood) elves and green (wild) elves or between gold dwarves and shield dwarves. I only realised this morning (after reading the feats for the third time), that the Gold Dwarf Pride and Shield the Fallen feats only has a pre-requisite of "Dwarf" and have no exclusivity clause.

Wood Elf Agility and Wild Elf Luck are mutually exclusive. You're right about the dwarf feats, though

Colmarr
2008-09-19, 02:14 AM
Wood Elf Agility and Wild Elf Luck are mutually exclusive.

Oops. Can you tell that I was more interested in Eladrin and Dwarves than Elves? :smalleek: