Whatever is wrong with Drizzt?

[Sholos]

Seriously, why do people have such a hatred for Drizzt? I've always thought he was a well developed character with a good story. Salvatore can write well. Maybe not on the level of the greats, but well. I have yet to see any argument against Drizzt that didn't basically boil down to being annoyed at what his creation sparked and/or misinformation about the character (like thinking he's a Gary Stu or was the author's favorite character at the table).

[EvilElitest]

i like him, through is books have gotten old now sadly but i think most of the hate comes from drizzt clones
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[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah, it's less that Drizzt sucks and more that his imitators have made a moderately tedious character into D&D's most prevalent and annoying cliché. And Drizzt verges on Marty Stu, but copies of him invariably go well over that line.

[EvilElitest]

Yeah, it's less that Drizzt sucks and more that his imitators have made a moderately tedious character into D&D's most prevalent and annoying cliché. And Drizzt verges on Marty Stu, but copies of him invariably go well over that line.

to be fair, RA Salvator doesn't own Drizzt' copyright, so he actually isn't allowed to kill him off. In his own worlds, he is more brutal
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[Douglas]

I think the hatred is generally not for Drizzt, but for the countless copycats. The original character is, well, original and new and reasonably well written. The thousands upon thousands of chaotic good drow dual-wielding scimitars that came after him are, for the most part, poorly done derivative caricatures whose only reason for existence is that they're "SO COOL!!11!1!"

[Texas_Ben]

This is why (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html).
I think that's really all that needs to be said.

[chiasaur11]

This is why (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html).
I think that's really all that needs to be said.

Bite Me?

That's a bit rude.

Or did you mean "Thog like breaking stuff"?

Because that IS a useful point.

[Sneak]

Well, the Drizzt books are good for what they are. What they are isn't all that greatl...they're fairly standard trashy fantasy books. But within that genre, they're definitely good.

As everyone else has said, it's not the Drizzt character that's bad, but the countless fanboys and imitators that Drizzt spawned.

[Trizap]

yeeeeaa.......I would create Drow characters......but because of all the imitators and fanboys..........I stay faaaarr away from from making any Drow character, so I won't be mistaken as one of them.

I love the Drizzt novels, planning to get all of them, real developed and good character.

I think hes more neutral good though, he may do chaotic acts but he has this personal code and such which is kinda lawful making him Neutral Good
but please no one talk about that, I don't want to turn this into an alignment discussion thread.

[EvilElitest]

Well, the Drizzt books are good for what they are. What they are isn't all that greatl...they're fairly standard trashy fantasy books. But within that genre, they're definitely good.

As everyone else has said, it's not the Drizzt character that's bad, but the countless fanboys and imitators that Drizzt spawned.

actually, Salvator is quite a good writer, he, Eddings, and martin are my three favorite living fantasy writers, if they could combine their talents you'd have the greatest fantasy book in all time
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[Sneak]

actually, Salvator is quite a good writer, he, Eddings, and martin are my three favorite living fantasy writers, if they could combine their talents you'd have the greatest fantasy book in all time
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I'm not saying that he's a bad writer. His books are exactly what they claim to be. But what they are, however, is standard fairly trashy fantasy. They're just good trashy fantasy. And they don't pretend to be anything more.

If you compare R.A. Salvatore to George R.R. Martin in terms of depth, though, I think we both know who will win.

[Nerd-o-rama]

actually, Salvator is quite a good writer, he, Eddings, and martin are my three favorite living fantasy writers, if they could combine their talents you'd have the greatest fantasy book in all time
from
EEHmm...

Eddings's dialog-writing and capacity for likeable characters.
Salvatore's description.
Martin's plotting and, let's be honest here, originality.

It has potential.

[EvilElitest]

Hmm...

Eddings's dialog-writing and capacity for likeable characters.
Salvatore's description.
Martin's plotting and, let's be honest here, originality.

It has potential.

this is reply to sneak as well

RA salvator isn't nearly as good as martin in terms of world or depth certainly. But he is a much better writer than martin. Martin isn't a great writer, he just has wonderful characters/world/story/plot/events/ect to make up for it

Salvator is great at showing events, particularly in fighting, however he tends towards cliche and his interacting (IE, the characters talking to each other) isn't that wonderful. Also he is best at making you empathize with characters to an extent (they each do it differently)

Eddings is amazing at dialogue, but his books often get inconsistent and isn't good at showing stuff

Martin has great organization skills, wonderful as world building and yes originality.
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[Anteros]

He is very much a Mary Sue.

1. Neither he, nor any of his friends face any real threat, ever. I understand it's because Salvatore isn't allowed to kill them, but regardless of the reason, it's not exactly the recipe for excitement.

2. He is very outspoken in his beliefs. There are literally diary entries from him at the beginning of most chapters parroting his ideas and morality, and he is always proven right by the books, no matter how controversial his views. Every single time he has ever had an argument with anyone, he has turned out to be right.

3. The world revolves around Drizzt. If there is a problem in the world, you may be assured that it's some villains scheme to get at Drizzt. You may be equally assured that it will be resolved directly by Drizzt.
-He killed my dog? Surely I must give up on everything I value in life and follow him across the world for revenge.
-Saved my life as a child? I'll spend the next 20 years plotting revenge!
-Tied me in a sword duel? Truly I must obsess over him for the rest of my life!
-Left my city to live peacefully on the surface? Let's invade the place where he lives!

I understand that as the main character he needs to be at the center of the plot...but come on already.

4. Deus ex Machina. There always seems to be that one item that Drizzt deperately needs to save the day, conveniently aquired on his previous adventure. Whether it's a mask that lets him look normal, a magical sword that just happens to absorb fire, or a bag of flour you can use to cover sunlight absorbing artifacts, you can be assured that Drizzt will happen across it just in time for it to be needed. Sometimes he will go on a quest to get this item, more often it just shows up when he needs it. It's supposed to be a novel, not a Legend of Zelda video game.

5. Writing style. In my personal opinion, Salvatore cannot write combat very well at all. This is unfortunate, because his novels are combat heavy.

[Sneak]

this is reply to sneak as well

RA salvator isn't nearly as good as martin in terms of world or depth certainly. But he is a much better writer than martin. Martin isn't a great writer, he just has wonderful characters/world/story/plot/events/ect to make up for it

Salvator is great at showing events, particularly in fighting, however he tends towards cliche and his interacting (IE, the characters talking to each other) isn't that wonderful. Also he is best at making you empathize with characters to an extent (they each do it differently)

I'm not sure I would agree with that. Mind you, I haven't tried to read an R.A. Salvatore book in years...the last one I tried was The Thousand Orcs. And I just got incredibly bored partway through, so I didn't finish it. George R.R. Martin's writing, on the other hand, always keeps me captivated—even in description and such.

Plus...well...as far as combat goes...remember the duel between Oberyn and Gregor? Just deny that that was epic.

But really, it's just a matter of personal taste. Some people think Dickens is boring, but I love the guy. So it's not really useful to argue about it.

Anyway, Salvatore's definitely not a bad writer, I just prefer Martin.


Eddings is amazing at dialogue, but his books often get inconsistent and isn't good at showing stuff

Haven't read Eddings, so I can't comment.

@^: Yeah, all that is true. And it does start to grate after a few books.

[Nerd-o-rama]

1. Well, I'd disagree. He and his friends scrape by death quite a few times - or so it seemed to fourteen-year-old-me. I'm sure I'd find the suspense a bit less nowadays. And to be fair, Wulfgar did die, and was clearly only brought back at the publisher's insistence (albeit as, eventually, a more interesting character).

2. You win this one.

3. Just because everything in his books revolves around him doesn't mean the world does. This is the Forgotten Realms, a collaborative effort of many, many terrible fantasy authors. He can be excused for focusing on Drizzt, though the number of obsessed villains with no practical reason to pursue him does get a little high...

4. I was going to point out James Bond, but he is also a Mary Sue, so never mind.

5. I, or my nostalgiafied memories of reading the novels, simply disagree. I thought Salvatore wrote a good swordfight, or at least a varying and easily-visualized one.

[EvilElitest]

He is very much a Mary Sue.

1. Neither he, nor any of his friends face any real threat, ever. I understand it's because Salvatore isn't allowed to kill them, but regardless of the reason, it's not exactly the recipe for excitement.

ignoring Salvator's inablity to kill his characters, he has been threatened. Errtu, the drow nation, and Enterai were good examples. I mean, nobody was killed, but the dwarf and Wulfgar were "killed" (in fact he wanted them both to die for ever, but copyright saved them) regis lost several fingers and was tortured. Hell, Drizzt is captured and tortured by the drow himself


2. He is very outspoken in his beliefs. There are literally diary entries from him at the beginning of most chapters parroting his ideas and morality, and he is always proven right by the books, no matter how controversial his views. Every single time he has ever had an argument with anyone, he has turned out to be right.

While the diary entires do exist, i actually like them, they are a good way into the characters mind (didn't work in the demon world saga however). As for arguments, that isn't true actually. how about when cattie-bri and him argued about preventive strike against goblins vs. formal declaration of war
Or when he fails to convince his sister that Lolth is in fact, not a happy godess (actually, Lolth tends to use Drizzt as a puppet a lot of the time at least according to some of her priest). Or when he gets almost lyched for when he is blamed for the farmers death. Or talk pycho elf out of killing him. Or even the gunpowder argument, as Drizzt is a conservative in thinking, the priest of Grond does have a valid point


3. The world revolves around Drizzt. If there is a problem in the world, you may be assured that it's some villains scheme to get at Drizzt. You may be equally assured that it will be resolved directly by Drizzt.
Dude, its FR. Drizzt is in one corner of one section of one area of one continent in one plane in that realm. For all of his reputation, he isn't that important actually, he just gets attention


-He killed my dog? Surely I must give up on everything I value in life and follow him across the world for revenge.
-Saved my life as a child? I'll spend the next 20 years plotting revenge!
-Tied me in a sword duel? Truly I must obsess over him for the rest of my life!
-Left my city to live peacefully on the surface? Let's invade the place where he lives!

1) Well remember he also lost an eye, and didn't give up anything in the process other than a house he didn't value. I mean, he did have money to be made
20 Wasn't away of that actually
3) Does enterai have anything better to do actually? i mean considering his character
4) well the actual invasion came from a mix of imperialistic ambitions and Lolth screwing around with her followers. Drizzt was just a justification
5) and none of those people are really world threats. They are pretty local actually


4. Deus ex Machina. There always seems to be that one item that Drizzt deperately needs to save the day, conveniently aquired on his previous adventure. Whether it's a mask that lets him look normal, a magical sword that just happens to absorb fire, or a bag of flour you can use to cover sunlight absorbing artifacts, you can be assured that Drizzt will happen across it just in time for it to be needed. Sometimes he will go on a quest to get this item, more often it just shows up when he needs it. It's supposed to be a novel, not a Legend of Zelda video game.
I admit you do have a point here, i don't think it reaches quite the level of Deus ex machina, because it never quite "comes out of no where" except for the anti flame sword. It does border it through



5. Writing style. In my personal opinion, Salvatore cannot write combat very well at all. This is unfortunate, because his novels are combat heavy.
Actually, i think combat is his best point. He can't do dialogue very well sadly (not awfully, but still)


Honestly, Cadderly would be a better mary Sue example, or the main character/villain protagonist in the second demonwar saga (a villain sue)
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edit
Sneak
1) martin is a bette Author by far, he just has a better control over his own story and more in depth and interesting world ect. However he isn't that great of a writer. he isn't bad by any means, but the actual writing itself isn't that interesting. He more than makes up for it, i mean those are amazing books. But the writing itself is kinda clunky, i think because he focuses more on the characters/plot/world than the quality
2) Gregor vs. the viper was amazing, but not the description of the fight itself. The epicness came out of Martin's great ability to set tone and wonderful setting. If i had read taht without the background info, i wouldn't be impressed. As it was, it was uber epic (more than most Salvator's work actually) because of the suspense and the fact that we know how Martin doesn't follow conventional norms.
3) oh i like Martin better certainly. I just think Salvator can write better. he does better in his eariler drizzt novels and the demon wars saga through, Drizzt has gotten old
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[Sholos]

He is very much a Mary Sue.

1. Neither he, nor any of his friends face any real threat, ever. I understand it's because Salvatore isn't allowed to kill them, but regardless of the reason, it's not exactly the recipe for excitement.
If it's not Salvatore's fault that Drizzt can't be killed, it's very hard for this argument to actually stick, isn't it?


2. He is very outspoken in his beliefs. There are literally diary entries from him at the beginning of most chapters parroting his ideas and morality, and he is always proven right by the books, no matter how controversial his views. Every single time he has ever had an argument with anyone, he has turned out to be right.
So he's insightful. What's your point? The life he's led would make almost anyone pretty insightful. And why wouldn't his diary have his views in it? Also, he's been able to observe people for a very long time, and he's very, very intelligent. It's not a surprise that he's right most of the time. Especially when a lot of the entries are more self-reflective than not.


3. The world revolves around Drizzt. If there is a problem in the world, you may be assured that it's some villains scheme to get at Drizzt. You may be equally assured that it will be resolved directly by Drizzt.
-He killed my dog? Surely I must give up on everything I value in life and follow him across the world for revenge.
-Saved my life as a child? I'll spend the next 20 years plotting revenge!
-Tied me in a sword duel? Truly I must obsess over him for the rest of my life!
-Left my city to live peacefully on the surface? Let's invade the place where he lives!
I'm ... not sure what the dog one is in reference to. The female elf that hunted him blamed him for the death of her entire tribe. Is it really all that surprising that she'd come after him? Artemis had, until he and Drizzt fought, never even really been challenged in a fight, let alone defeated. It was a major blow to his psyche and he tries to repair it. Actually, the drow didn't invade to get Drizzt. They invaded because they wanted the space. The fact that Drizzt was there was seen as a happy coincidence.

Besides, all you've done is mention three people (maybe four) that have personal vendettas against Drizzt, and one of whom wasn't even pursuing that vendetta. Where's this world that revolves around Drizzt again?


I understand that as the main character he needs to be at the center of the plot...but come on already.

4. Deus ex Machina. There always seems to be that one item that Drizzt deperately needs to save the day, conveniently aquired on his previous adventure. Whether it's a mask that lets him look normal, a magical sword that just happens to absorb fire, or a bag of flour you can use to cover sunlight absorbing artifacts, you can be assured that Drizzt will happen across it just in time for it to be needed. Sometimes he will go on a quest to get this item, more often it just shows up when he needs it. It's supposed to be a novel, not a Legend of Zelda video game.
Hardly convenient. The mask was being used by the antagonist, remember? Why shouldn't Drizzt keep it? The sword was loot from a white dragon's lair. It seems odd to you that a white dragon would have a sword closely associated with ice in it's hoard? I'm really not sure what to make of you thinking that a bag of flour is a Deus ex Machina. Are bags of flour very rare where you come from? Something you don't see much? Also, if he goes on a quest specifically to find an object, it's hardly a DeM, is it?


5. Writing style. In my personal opinion, Salvatore cannot write combat very well at all. This is unfortunate, because his novels are combat heavy.

Well, in my personal opinion (and most critics who read Salvatore), he writes very, very good combat scenes. In fact, the combat scenes are generally the best part of his books. That's a good thing, since his novels are combat heavy.

[Anteros]

ignoring Salvator's inablity to kill his characters, he has been threatened. Errtu, the drow nation, and Enterai were good examples. I mean, nobody was killed, but the dwarf and Wulfgar were "killed" (in fact he wanted them both to die for ever, but copyright saved them) regis lost several fingers and was tortured. Hell, Drizzt is captured and tortured by the drow himself


But you as the reader still know that there is no real danger.


While the diary entires do exist, i actually like them, they are a good way into the characters mind (didn't work in the demon world saga however). As for arguments, that isn't true actually. how about when cattie-bri and him argued about preventive strike against goblins vs. formal declaration of war
Or when he fails to convince his sister that Lolth is in fact, not a happy godess (actually, Lolth tends to use Drizzt as a puppet a lot of the time at least according to some of her priest). Or when he gets almost lyched for when he is blamed for the farmers death. Or talk pycho elf out of killing him. Or even the gunpowder argument, as Drizzt is a conservative in thinking, the priest of Grond does have a valid point

I don't remember the Goblins thing. Sorry. Yes, he failed to convince his sister, and yes he was blamed for the farmer's death, but in the end he was right. No, he didn't talk psycho elf out of the fight, but he was right. And while you personally agree with the priest of Grond, (and I agree with you), his point is never really represented in the books. You just get Drizzt's view shoved down your throat. I am not saying that everything always goes his way when he argues with other characters (although they often do.) I am saying that it is always presented so that you as the reader will view Drizzt's views as the correct ones. He is always right and never wrong. Other characters may not agree with him, but the reader is supposed to.


Dude, its FR. Drizzt is in one corner of one section of one area of one continent in one plane in that realm. For all of his reputation, he isn't that important actually, he just gets attention


1) Well remember he also lost an eye, and didn't give up anything in the process other than a house he didn't value. I mean, he did have money to be made
20 Wasn't away of that actually
3) Does enterai have anything better to do actually? i mean considering his character
4) well the actual invasion came from a mix of imperialistic ambitions and Lolth screwing around with her followers. Drizzt was just a justification
5) and none of those people are really world threats. They are pretty local actually

1. He still gave up his comfy life in order to chase Drizzt across the world. I hardly think those farmers would have paid him anything for Drizzt when he returned 10 years later.
2. Psycho elf.
3. Entreri is shown to be a cold and meticulous person. His obsession with Drizzt is in contrast with his character.
4. And the drow somehow thought that Drizzt was important enough to justify an invasion?
5. The drow are a world threat, but it's not really relevant to my point anyway whether they are or not.



Actually, i think combat is his best point. He can't do dialogue very well sadly (not awfully, but still)


Honestly, Cadderly would be a better mary Sue example, or the main character/villain protagonist in the second demonwar saga (a villain sue)
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I disagree, but it's simply a matter of personal preference so there is no point in arguing. As for Cadderly I have never read any of his books, but his appearances in the Drizzt novels do seem very Mary Sueish. There is no reason both can't be Mary Sues. Especially given they have the same author.

[mangosta71]

Humans are extremely social, so I assume that the other races are as well. We take our values from the society that surrounds us. So I just don't find it realistic that someone growing up in the drow society would have such radically different values. He never knew anything else, so why would he find it wrong?

[EvilElitest]

But you as the reader still know that there is no real danger.

same goes for the characters in David Eddings books


I don't remember the Goblins thing. Sorry. Yes, he failed to convince his sister, and yes he was blamed for the farmer's death, but in the end he was right. No, he didn't talk psycho elf out of the fight, but he was right. And while you personally agree with the priest of Grond, (and I agree with you), his point is never really represented in the books. You just get Drizzt's view shoved down your throat. I am not saying that everything always goes his way when he argues with other characters (although they often do.) I am saying that it is always presented so that you as the reader will view Drizzt's views as the correct ones. He is always right and never wrong. Other characters may not agree with him, but the reader is supposed to.

His view is just one view. You said he wins every argument when that isn't the case, and he admits in his dairies that he has been called out on his hypocrisies a few time (like taking a racist oath)


1. He still gave up his comfy life in order to chase Drizzt across the world. I hardly think those farmers would have paid him anything for Drizzt when he returned 10 years later.
2. Psycho elf.
3. Entreri is shown to be a cold and meticulous person. His obsession with Drizzt is in contrast with his character.
4. And the drow somehow thought that Drizzt was important enough to justify an invasion?
5. The drow are a world threat, but it's not really relevant to my point anyway whether they are or not.

1) Actually he didn't have a comfy life, he lived in a small hut in the woods and was a bounty hunter by trade. And he didn't follow him for ten years, the book took place ten years before the start of the next book
2) and your point it?
3) Not really, he is cold because he doesn't believe in anything other than his own perfection. Drizzt is a challenge to his beliefs. He gave up friendship and empathy to become strong and he wants to prove drizzt wrong. In a sense he has, through not directly
4) Well he was a drow heratic/renagade. But their real purpose was simply taking over the hall/lolth's influence
5) That city however was only a local one

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[Fri]

But you as the reader still know that there is no real danger.


Of course we are. This is exactly that type of book. Like, except on the last book, how many of us were really concerned on Harry Potter's life.

[Anteros]

If it's not Salvatore's fault that Drizzt can't be killed, it's very hard for this argument to actually stick, isn't it?

No, it isn't Salvatore's fault. But it's still a flaw with the character. Whether or not it's Salvatore's fault is completely irrelevant.


So he's insightful. What's your point? The life he's led would make almost anyone pretty insightful. And why wouldn't his diary have his views in it? Also, he's been able to observe people for a very long time, and he's very, very intelligent. It's not a surprise that he's right most of the time. Especially when a lot of the entries are more self-reflective than not.

Maybe he is insightful. You're certainly meant to think so. The point is that he is never shown as wrong. His logic never is shown to have flaws. Characters without flaws are bad.



Besides, all you've done is mention three people (maybe four) that have personal vendettas against Drizzt, and one of whom wasn't even pursuing that vendetta. Where's this world that revolves around Drizzt again?

My point is that the novels and the antagonists focus entirely too much upon Drizzt and not enough upon an actual plot. Good stories generally have the protagonist reacting to the antagonist, not vice versa.


Hardly convenient. The mask was being used by the antagonist, remember? Why shouldn't Drizzt keep it? The sword was loot from a white dragon's lair. It seems odd to you that a white dragon would have a sword closely associated with ice in it's hoard? I'm really not sure what to make of you thinking that a bag of flour is a Deus ex Machina. Are bags of flour very rare where you come from? Something you don't see much? Also, if he goes on a quest specifically to find an object, it's hardly a DeM, is it?

Umm no. The mask happened to be sitting in a cave nearby just when he needed it. The sword just happened to have anti fire and demon killing powers that show up just when he gets dragged into a fire against a demon. And he was carrying the sack of flour around on his belt! (or a necklace I forget.) Flour may be common, but that's hardly a common practice. It's very, very convenient. Especially given that he didn't even bother to replace it after he used it.

Checklist to fight evil: Sword? Check! Armor? Check! Bag of flour? Check!


Well, in my personal opinion (and most critics who read Salvatore), he writes very, very good combat scenes. In fact, the combat scenes are generally the best part of his books. That's a good thing, since his novels are combat heavy.

As I said, this is soley my own personal preference. There is absolutely no reason for me to argue with you. You enjoy them and I am glad for you. I'm sure there are things that I enjoy that you do not.

[kpenguin]

My point is that the novels and the antagonists focus entirely too much upon Drizzt and not enough upon an actual plot. Good stories generally have the protagonist reacting to the antagonist, not vice versa.

Woah! Woah! Woah!

What's that now?

I know that most stories have the protagonist reacting to the antagonist, but isn't that one of the arguments brought up on why we tend to enjoy reading about the villian more. Having a hero that is solely reactionary is boring as hell.

[Anteros]

Of course we are. This is exactly that type of book. Like, except on the last book, how many of us were really concerned on Harry Potter's life.

Because she told you there would be 7 books. If she had not you would not know whether or not Harry was going to die at the end of any given book. And in fact, many of the characters in her books do die before the end. In addition, Rawling is not magically bringing dead characters back to life whenever it is convenient. With Drizzt, you could be reading the very last of his books, and you still know for a fact that neither he, nor any of his friends will die.

EE. I did not say he wins every argument. I said he is always right. There is a huge difference. I can tell a murderer that murder is wrong and fail to convince him, but most people will still agree that murder is wrong whether I convince him or not.

[Sholos]

But you as the reader still know that there is no real danger.

I don't remember the Goblins thing. Sorry. Yes, he failed to convince his sister, and yes he was blamed for the farmer's death, but in the end he was right. No, he didn't talk psycho elf out of the fight, but he was right. And while you personally agree with the priest of Grond, (and I agree with you), his point is never really represented in the books. You just get Drizzt's view shoved down your throat. I am not saying that everything always goes his way when he argues with other characters (although they often do.) I am saying that it is always presented so that you as the reader will view Drizzt's views as the correct ones. He is always right and never wrong. Other characters may not agree with him, but the reader is supposed to.
And this is different from 90% of fiction how? In almost every fiction I've read you're supposed to agree with the main character. Especially when the world is presented through their eyes (for the most part).


1. He still gave up his comfy life in order to chase Drizzt across the world. I hardly think those farmers would have paid him anything for Drizzt when he returned 10 years later.
2. Psycho elf.
3. Entreri is shown to be a cold and meticulous person. His obsession with Drizzt is in contrast with his character.
4. And the drow somehow thought that Drizzt was important enough to justify an invasion?
5. The drow are a world threat, but it's not really relevant to my point anyway whether they are or not.

1. When did the hunter guy go chasing after Drizzt besides in the very beginning? I thought I had read all the Drizzt books and I don't remember that part. Besides, Drizzt shamed him in front of an entire village and probably caused him some pretty nasty domestic troubles. I think you underestimate how far some people are willing to go to "right wrongs".

2. I explained that one already. The elf in question was obviously traumatized and could not get over it. Besides, you said it yourself. Psycho elf. Hardly the type to expect rational actions from, no?

3. No, the books have shown nothing of the kind. What they have shown is that Artemis only tries to appear cold. Artemis is very much not immune to things on the personal level, though.

4. Have you read the books where Drizzt breaks away? He causes very serious damage. Makes sense that the major houses would want some revenge. Especially if they thought it would get them in good with Lolth.

5. Well, they have the potential to become a world threat, yes, but during the books they stay local.


I disagree, but it's simply a matter of personal preference so there is no point in arguing. As for Cadderly I have never read any of his books, but his appearances in the Drizzt novels do seem very Mary Sueish. There is no reason both can't be Mary Sues. Especially given they have the same author.

By the time Cadderly interacts with Drizzt he's likely an epic level cleric, or close to it. It's not a big surprise that he's very powerful. I'd argue against Cadderly being a Marty Stu, though, for the simple reason that Salvatore never wanted to write him. He wanted to write about a monk. Only, by the time he started that series (because he wanted to get away from Drizzt & Co.) monks were out or something. So, he was told to do something else. He knew clerics, so he wrote a cleric who didn't believe in his god (though later he comes to the realization that he is very wrong).

[Anteros]

Woah! Woah! Woah!

What's that now?

I know that most stories have the protagonist reacting to the antagonist, but isn't that one of the arguments brought up on why we tend to enjoy reading about the villian more. Having a hero that is solely reactionary is boring as hell.

Well it's not like Drizzt is doing anything but reacting to the villains plans. He is still completely reactionary. The main difference is that he is reacting to the villains plans that are specifically targetting him. In most cases (but not all) he is not fighting against a demon or an assassin who are trying to achieve a goal. He is fighting against a demon or an assassin who are after him. It's like as soon as anyone meets or hears about Drizzt, their world starts to revolve around him. It's simply not realistic.

[Sholos]

Well it's not like Drizzt is doing anything but reacting to the villains plans. He is still completely reactionary. The main difference is that he is reacting to the villains plans that are specifically targetting him. In most cases (but not all) he is not fighting against a demon or an assassin who are trying to achieve a goal. He is fighting against a demon or an assassin who are after him. It's like as soon as anyone meets or hears about Drizzt, their world starts to revolve around him. It's simply not realistic.

And why are they after him? Because he already destroyed their plans (that had nothing to do with him) earlier, that's why. Revenge does kind of have to revolve around the target.


Humans are extremely social, so I assume that the other races are as well. We take our values from the society that surrounds us. So I just don't find it realistic that someone growing up in the drow society would have such radically different values. He never knew anything else, so why would he find it wrong?

Because he did know something else. From his father. Salvatore also posits that drow are not evil from birth, but become that way because of their surroundings. Drizzt's surroundings included his father, who was just like Drizzt except for the courage to stand against society.

[Anteros]

And this is different from 90% of fiction how? In almost every fiction I've read you're supposed to agree with the main character. Especially when the world is presented through their eyes (for the most part).


You're supposed to agree with them, but in good fiction they still have flaws.


1. When did the hunter guy go chasing after Drizzt besides in the very beginning? I thought I had read all the Drizzt books and I don't remember that part. Besides, Drizzt shamed him in front of an entire village and probably caused him some pretty nasty domestic troubles. I think you underestimate how far some people are willing to go to "right wrongs".

2. I explained that one already. The elf in question was obviously traumatized and could not get over it. Besides, you said it yourself. Psycho elf. Hardly the type to expect rational actions from, no?

3. No, the books have shown nothing of the kind. What they have shown is that Artemis only tries to appear cold. Artemis is very much not immune to things on the personal level, though.

4. Have you read the books where Drizzt breaks away? He causes very serious damage. Makes sense that the major houses would want some revenge. Especially if they thought it would get them in good with Lolth.

5. Well, they have the potential to become a world threat, yes, but during the books they stay local.

My point isn't whether or not these character's motivations make sense, it's that too many character's motivations revolve directly around Drizzt. Yes, they make sense, but that doesn't make it interesting when the billionth character swears revenge.



By the time Cadderly interacts with Drizzt he's likely an epic level cleric, or close to it. It's not a big surprise that he's very powerful. I'd argue against Cadderly being a Marty Stu, though, for the simple reason that Salvatore never wanted to write him. He wanted to write about a monk. Only, by the time he started that series (because he wanted to get away from Drizzt & Co.) monks were out or something. So, he was told to do something else. He knew clerics, so he wrote a cleric who didn't believe in his god (though later he comes to the realization that he is very wrong).

Like I said, I have never read Cadderly, I was simply giving my impression of him from the Drizzt novels.

Note: I am not telling you to hate Drizzt or saying that you are wrong for liking him. But you asked for reasons why some people dislike him, and I am providing mine.

As for Drizzt's father being his role model, I agree with you. But who was his father's role model?

[Douglas]

1. He still gave up his comfy life in order to chase Drizzt across the world. I hardly think those farmers would have paid him anything for Drizzt when he returned 10 years later.
Drizzt humiliated him. From that moment on it was never about the bounty, it was all about his injured pride.

2. Psycho elf.
Young child surface elf sees a drow warrior brutally cut up her mother's corpse while obviously reveling in the slaughter of every other surface elf there. Oh, and she's underneath her mother's corpse at the time and getting parental blood dripped on her. Of course she's going to be severely traumatized and absolutely convinced that this drow is the epitome of evil. When the exact same drow starts earning a reputation as the lone good guy rebel of the race, she'd just about have to be a saint to react with "maybe I was wrong" rather than overwhelming outrage at his attempt to disguise (her very deeply entrenched opinion of) his true nature.

3. Entreri is shown to be a cold and meticulous person. His obsession with Drizzt is in contrast with his character.
Entreri values combat skill above almost all else. He has deliberately made himself cold and heartless because he thought that was the only way to achieve ultimate skill as a warrior, and there are hints (I think) that doing so was a significant sacrifice for him. Consequently, Drizzt is a challenge to the assumptions behind Entreri's entire way of life, not just to Entreri's supremacy in combat skill. Drizzt attained his skill without making the sacrifice Entreri did, which implies that the sacrifice was not necessary.

4. And the drow somehow thought that Drizzt was important enough to justify an invasion?
Drizzt was an excuse. They probably would have invaded regardless of whether Drizzt was there, he was just a convenient extra reason.

[MeklorIlavator]

Drizzt was an excuse. They probably would have invaded regardless of whether Drizzt was there, he was just a convenient extra reason.

Just to emphasis this, in the book the drow behind the whole thing specifically says that Drizzt is simply an excuse, and what she really wants is the hall.

[Sholos]

You're supposed to agree with them, but in good fiction they still have flaws.
Drizzt has flaws. He took an oath to never kill a drow. How dumb of an oath is that?

At first, he's very hurt by people not accepting who he is, and even goes to great lengths to avoid people knowing he's a drow.

Look at how long it took him to get together with Cattie-Brie because he was so concerned about what would happen 40 years down the road. He had to be taught how to live in the now, rather than the future.


My point isn't whether or not these character's motivations make sense, it's that too many character's motivations revolve directly around Drizzt. Yes, they make sense, but that doesn't make it interesting when the billionth character swears revenge.

I think it does make a difference. It shows that there are real people in the world, and that the heroes actions have consequences. How many revenge driven enemies does the average PC have? How easy is it to get more? Considering the amount of time Drizzt has had, it's a wonder he's only had five or so people obsessed with killing him.


Like I said, I have never read Cadderly, I was simply giving my impression of him from the Drizzt novels.

Note: I am not telling you to hate Drizzt or saying that you are wrong for liking him. But you asked for reasons why some people dislike him, and I am providing mine.

Oh, I know. I just have fun arguing (in the real sense of the word, not the adversarial sense).


As for Drizzt's father being his role model, I agree with you. But who was his father's role model?

I'll have to get back to you on that one. I know Salvatore explained it pretty well.

[Anteros]

Just to emphasis this, in the book the drow behind the whole thing specifically says that Drizzt is simply an excuse, and what she really wants is the hall.

Yes, he was an excuse. An excuse apparently potent enough to motivate an entire city into invasion. A city whom he didn't even do anything to but leave. That's hardly normal.

[Sholos]

Yes, he was an excuse. An excuse apparently potent enough to motivate an entire city into invasion. A city whom he didn't even do anything to but leave. That's hardly normal.

To you, no. To the drow? Yes. You'd hardly argue that the drow are normal, would you?

[MeklorIlavator]

Yes, he was an excuse. An excuse apparently potent enough to motivate an entire city into invasion. A city whom he didn't even do anything to but leave. That's hardly normal.

An excuse that motivated the oligarchy in control of the city(he had, after all, disgraced the most powerful member and had caused the destruction of another house). One that knew that their goddess(who gave them all their power) really wanted dead. And wanted the invasion to proceed(and goddesses have some pretty good methods of persuasion). And even then, the motivation was far from perfect, there are several instances where the strength of the alliance is in question.

[mangosta71]

Because he did know something else. From his father. Salvatore also posits that drow are not evil from birth, but become that way because of their surroundings. Drizzt's surroundings included his father, who was just like Drizzt except for the courage to stand against society.

When did Drizzt and his father ever sit down and have a deep, meaningful conversation with his father that wasn't purely about combat tactics (before the final showdown between them)? I'm not seeing it in Homeland. Continuing that note, where did good ol' Zak get his morals from?

On another topic, what are his stats? Straight 18s (well, 19 dex and 17 con)? He's super strong and charming, incredibly fast and tough, unhumanly smart and insightful, and we're supposed to accept this?

[freerangetroll]

First three Drizzt novels? Entertaining, but nothing special. Everything after that was just plain old boring. Anteros has pretty much expressed how I see the series, it also isn't helped by the fact that Salvatore in my opinion is a very poor (read formulaic) writer.

[Sholos]

On another topic, what are his stats? Straight 18s (well, 19 dex and 17 con)? He's super strong and charming, incredibly fast and tough, unhumanly smart and insightful, and we're supposed to accept this?

He shouldn't have stats. He was never meant to be played. I don't think he has stats outside of 3.X. And there his stats don't really represent the character.

Even then, why exactly is it hard to believe that he would have very good stats? Do you complain if a player at your table has good stats? Remember, point buy didn't really exist until fairly recently (or at least wasn't all that popular). It was roll the dice and see what you get. So, yes, you are supposed to believe that he is fairly strong (not the strongest character in the stories by far) and very dexterous and intelligent and charismatic (2E drow?).

[mangosta71]

I wouldn't believe that he'd rolled that well unless I was watching him roll with my dice. On strength, I seem to recall him parrying attacks from giants with heavy clubs. Wulfgar may be stronger, but Drizzt is stronger than everyone else in the books. I'm not saying that he couldn't, or even shouldn't, have high scores. But the BEST at EVERYTHING? I believe someone mentioned earlier that he has no flaws, aside from the tendency toward being an emo twit at time. Which makes him a boring character.

[Sholos]

It is a mistaken belief that Drizzt has no flaws. I named some of them in an earlier post.

Also, parrying doesn't mean you are stronger than the other person. Parrying means you can redirect energy. I believe Drizzt also uses a fair amount of dodging in his defense. Both Wulfgar and the dwarf are stronger, and Drizzt has run into other enemies that outmatch him physically at other times. Heck, in his stat-up I think it lists his strength at 16 or something (though, as I stated before his stat-up does a very poor job at representing the character overall).

[Anteros]

Yes, you named a flaw. The racist oath. (Which he abandoned almost immediately the next time he actually met with a Drow, so it's not like it hampered him any.)
Can you name another?

[Sholos]

I already did.

[Jayngfet]

What about how he was the best every year in school, being the only one with no stealth.

[Anteros]

At first, he's very hurt by people not accepting who he is, and even goes to great lengths to avoid people knowing he's a drow.

Look at how long it took him to get together with Cattie-Brie because he was so concerned about what would happen 40 years down the road. He had to be taught how to live in the now, rather than the future.



Umm..because when people know who he is they try to kill him. He isn't ashamed of being a drow, he doesn't want to die. That's not a flaw.

And he took so long to be with Cattie-Brie because his best friend was engaged to her! I'm not sure that you can consider not betraying your best friend a flaw.

[kpenguin]

And he took so long to be with Cattie-Brie because his best friend was engaged to her! I'm not sure that you can consider not betraying your best friend a flaw.

It is if you're a drow.:smallwink:

[Sholos]

What about how he was the best every year in school, being the only one with no stealth.

He wasn't the first year. And he became the best by being an utter bastard the other years. Also, he used plenty of stealth. I'm not sure what you're referencing.


Umm..because when people know who he is they try to kill him. He isn't ashamed of being a drow, he doesn't want to die. That's not a flaw.
No, he's ashamed of what the drow represent to the surface races, and thus tries to hide his heritage. That's part of why he decides not to use the mask anymore. Because he realizes that it's silly.


And he took so long to be with Cattie-Brie because his best friend was engaged to her! I'm not sure that you can consider not betraying your best friend a flaw.

Obviously if I am attributing it as a flaw, I am speaking about after Catte-Brie and Wulfgar separate.

[Attilargh]

Umm..because when people know who he is they try to kill him. He isn't ashamed of being a drow, he doesn't want to die. That's not a flaw.
Actually, he did seem a bit embarrassed back in the Icewind Dale Trilogy. It lasted for, oh, about two books.

Also, he occasionally flips out and kills things. Which is all he does anyway, except when he flips out, he delays his whining until he un-flips. And this is presented as something creepy.

Ædit: Oh, and not being able to confess his love to the woman he loves is not as much a flaw as it's a requirement to become the virtuous male protagonist of a fantasy series.

[RedWizard]

At first, he's very hurt by people not accepting who he is, and even goes to great lengths to avoid people knowing he's a drow.

As mentioned above, this is partly that he doesn't want people to try to kill him because he's Drow... and partly because he's Tortured, Outcast, and Alone. Superficial depth that manages to hold out no matter how many people he saves or who ends up deciding he's the bestest dude ever, because it just isn't Drizzt if he isn't at least a bit Outcast and Alone.


Look at how long it took him to get together with Cattie-Brie because he was so concerned about what would happen 40 years down the road. He had to be taught how to live in the now, rather than the future.

Drawing out romantic "will they or won't they" tension isn't much of a flaw, especially when it's reiterating the elf/mortal OTP dilemma that's as old as Tolkien. (If we're willing to scale it back to gods/mortals, at least as old as Greek mythology.)

As far as whether you're supposed to agree with the main character in a book... well... no, not really. Not always, anyway. Interesting characters are flawed, and that includes the possibility to be really wrong.

Really, I agree with the people who say that Drizzt books are fine for what they are: trashy fantasy reads. He's not a crime against the printed word or anything, he's a rather generic heroic badass with a gimmick that just isn't new anymore. I had my Drizzt clone when I was 14, and had fun; there just isn't anything about Drizzt that can sustain the sort of attention he gets, which drives people to get either bored with him, and sometimes to get annoyed when his popularity means that we can't just ignore him.

[mangosta71]

He wasn't the first year. And he became the best by being an utter bastard the other years. Also, he used plenty of stealth. I'm not sure what you're referencing.

He was the best his first year. He lost because his partner betrayed him. In the other years, his refusal to team up is never cruel, or even mean. Is it really being a bastard to not partner up with someone that you expect to plant a knife in your back?

I don't know if I'd call the Drizzt books trashy. Intended for younger audiences, yes. They're the kind of watered-down, good guy is always right, good always wins that the media has been shoving down our throats for ages.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I like the Drizzt novels just fine. They've entertained me since I way back in the glory days of Middle School, so even though the writing's not exactly Faulkner, it gets major nostalgia points with me.

Also, I think Salvatore's really gotten over the "Elves are awesome and Drows are awesome++" harping that somewhat marred my enjoyment of the old books. Or at least, going from the Hunter's Blades and the new trilogy, he's giving Orcs a chance to be badass too.

I ****ing hate his Dwarves though. Everytime I read that ****ing faux-brogue dialogue that's all "don't ye doubt!" and "sure 'n sure it be," it makes me want to find a dwarf and ****ing punt the thing. But yeah, the later books totally give Orcs a chance to shine at last, and it's been awesome. Obould is pure tits. Also it's funny how once the Orcs went from being bit players to major characters, their grammer suddenly improved from their original Hulk-speak.

Salvatore's always been a solid action-writer. He knows when to pick over the details and paint a picture, and when to zoom out and let the action flow fast. I think his last couple of books, the King's Road and the Orc King, have really taken this even higher, as both books were extremely quick, well-paced reads with no point where reading it became a slog. Not high entertainment, but good brain candy, partly for Salvatore's skill in visceral and bold fight scenes and partly to relive the heady times when D&D and its associated trashy fiction was still new and amazing to me.

[Cheesegear]

It's already been said, but, I did like Drizzt for a while there. But, towards the end, it felt like I was reading a LiveJouranal, and all the self and wordly-insight that Drizzt had shown in previous novels became wangsty. And I disliked it.

Obould is the greatest characters Salvatore has ever written (not including Cadderly, or Danica), and, Obould had nothing to do with Drizzt whatsoever (in contrast to 'everything revolves around Drizzt'). Drizzt just decided to get himself involved. Obould is my favourite 'villain' of the Drizzt Saga.

Sorry, The Sellswords was cool, but, I dislike Entrerei/Jaralaxle because of the fanboys assciated with one or both of them. But even Entrerei turned angsty (for no reason aside for what seems like Salvatore wanted to turn Entrerei into a 'sympathetic' villain...Or even a misunderstood hero).

Although, it has to be said that at least Salvatore didn't write Shandril's Saga (that was pretty bad, it''s by Greenwood).

[Pokemaster]

Personally, I just think the whole series just kinda dragged out and fizzled away bit by bit. I can't point out a specific reason why, but it's just not as interesting as it used to be.

[Mr. Scaly]

Ack, I missed the debate...

Don't get me wrong I'm fond of Salvatore's books (what ones I've read) but...well, Drizzt just isn't as interesting for me as he used to be. I think that's because he's pretty much the same guy now as he was a dozen books ago. And a dozen books or so ago I remember him as being really preachy and holier-than-thou...traits that I detest. Actually i think that's why I hate most elves too.

Also the little musing by Drizzt beginning each book part is REALLY distracting. The only time it hit me was when he mused on Entreri and Jarlexle's relationship and the other two had similar thoughts inbook.

[tribble]

I dislike the Drizzt books because theres too damn many. I mean, seriously, how many are there? Also, Drizzt is one sided. he just is. Really, he's a Wangsty "hero" with a gimmick and his potential has been played out. heck, I prefer Artemis to Drizzt. at least Artemis manages to dish it out without being a self-righteous **** while he does it.

[TempusCCK]

As for traits and flaws, I've been thinking about it as I lurked in the forum here and I am going to have to say that Wisdom is probably Drizzt's dump stat (even though it's still probably a ~14).

I mean, lets' look at the Drizzt/Cattie-brie issue for a moment, would a very wise character actually get that worried about being with a person just because they are going to die? No, they would make the connection that yes, this human will die before him, but that's inevitable, you should make the most fo the time you have when you have it. That's something that I personally had to learn myself through life experience because I wasn't wise enough to realize it.

Swearing an oath to never kill Drow? Not a wise move on any persons part.

Running off by himself to go and try and stop a Drow invasion single handedly? Wisdom would have told him that if the Drow planned to invade, he would be more of an asset by shoring up his friends defenses and allowing them to use his knowledge of the Underdark to aide in the battle.

Drizzt does have a flaw in that he's impetuous and doesn't really see through some of the decisions he makes to determine what kind of outcomes, that's a poor wisdom score. Strength is fairly low too, he never really does much that requires a good deal of strength or constitution, Int and Dex are through the freaking roof though.

As for Charisma, really, why would you make a major character in a book uncharismatic if he fits into a role of a somewhat brooding, misunderstood Hero, it's just stupid to have a bumbling, inane main character like that. Charisma is fluff at best, lay off of it.

[tribble]

As for traits and flaws, I've been thinking about it as I lurked in the forum here and I am going to have to say that Wisdom is probably Drizzt's dump stat (even though it's still probably a ~14).

I mean, lets' look at the Drizzt/Cattie-brie issue for a moment, would a very wise character actually get that worried about being with a person just because they are going to die? No, they would make the connection that yes, this human will die before him, but that's inevitable, you should make the most fo the time you have when you have it. That's something that I personally had to learn myself through life experience because I wasn't wise enough to realize it.

Swearing an oath to never kill Drow? Not a wise move on any persons part.

Running off by himself to go and try and stop a Drow invasion single handedly? Wisdom would have told him that if the Drow planned to invade, he would be more of an asset by shoring up his friends defenses and allowing them to use his knowledge of the Underdark to aide in the battle.

Drizzt does have a flaw in that he's impetuous and doesn't really see through some of the decisions he makes to determine what kind of outcomes, that's a poor wisdom score. Strength is fairly low too, he never really does much that requires a good deal of strength or constitution, Int and Dex are through the freaking roof though.

As for Charisma, really, why would you make a major character in a book uncharismatic if he fits into a role of a somewhat brooding, misunderstood Hero, it's just stupid to have a bumbling, inane main character like that. Charisma is fluff at best, lay off of it.

Some things I agree on, and some I dont. yeah, wisdom does appear to be his dump stat, and it is still probably fourteen or higher. that in itself is a problem, According to the test in my sig that's high enough to cast clerical spells. when you could multiclass to something relying on your dump stat, that is not a good thing, it pretty much instantly makes you a marty stu.

now, what I don't agree with is the strength bit. he killed a Golem by slicing through its head. that's pretty strong.

[Mr. Scaly]

I think I remember an old Baldurs Gate reference that said Drizzt had a strength of 12 and a dexterity of 22...but the lack of strength could be made up by the sheer sharpness of his swords.

[MeklorIlavator]

now, what I don't agree with is the strength bit. he killed a Golem by slicing through its head. that's pretty strong.
What book did he do this in? The only golem I remember him faceing is Bort(that flesh golem the wizard made), and his weapons couldn't touch that thing.

[Sholos]

Some things I agree on, and some I dont. yeah, wisdom does appear to be his dump stat, and it is still probably fourteen or higher. that in itself is a problem, According to the test in my sig that's high enough to cast clerical spells. when you could multiclass to something relying on your dump stat, that is not a good thing, it pretty much instantly makes you a marty stu.
How? Having high stats (which Drizzt doesn't, because he doesn't have stats because he isn't a character) doesn't make you a Marty Stu. Hell, all of the main characters have very good stats.


now, what I don't agree with is the strength bit. he killed a Golem by slicing through its head. that's pretty strong.

I'd like to know when this happened as well.

Something else to consider. Drizzt was never supposed to be the main character of the stories. Wulfgar was. Drizzt just became instantly popular, and Salvatore ran with it. If Drizzt is a Marty Stu of anyone, it's of the fans, not Salvatore.

[mangosta71]

I assume he means in Homeland, when he was in the raiding party the drow sent after the svirfneblin. The gnomes summoned an earth elemental, and Drizzt took it out single-handedly.

[Sholos]

Well, he did have some help. From Gwen, if I remember correctly.

[mangosta71]

As I recall, Gwen was set on the other gnomes. I distinctly remember Gwen being upset/disgusted by the work (but that may just have been the mop-up). The mage apprentice guy was supposed to help Drizzt, but he didn't. His spell only finished off the elemental because he missed Drizzt with it.

Note: this is from memory, as I'm at work and don't have the book with me.

[freerangetroll]

Sholos saying that Drizzt is Salvatore's or the fan's fault is immaterial. In a lot of peoples eyes he is a very one dimensional and boring character at the best, and a poster boy for Marty Stu-dom at the worst.

[Anteros]

Yeah, people keep trotting out the "It's not Salvatore's fault!" argument. What they need to realize is that no one cares if it's Salvatore's fault or not. It doesn't effect the character either way.

[MeklorIlavator]

Yeah, people keep trotting out the "It's not Salvatore's fault!" argument. What they need to realize is that no one cares if it's Salvatore's fault or not. It doesn't effect the character either way.

I think its more a response to the hate directed at Salvatore.

[freerangetroll]

I think its more a response to the hate directed at Salvatore.

Well Salvatore is a bad writer in my opinion. But that isn't the topic of the thread.

[Fan]

Well Salvatore is a bad writer in my opinion. But that isn't the topic of the thread.
Nonsense he is one of the GREATEST fantasy writers this century. Also back on topic.

Drizzt has hate becuase of the reasons already presented, so VERY many crappy clones. At least have the orignality to change the story, and class if your gonan do the Drizzt style dual wielding!

[Anteros]

Nonsense he is one of the GREATEST fantasy writers this century. Also back on topic.



hahahahahahahahaha*gasp*ahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Fan]

hahahahahahahahaha*gasp*ahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Wow way to be mature. :smallannoyed:

[DomaDoma]

I thought Drizzt was wonderful for the first six books (Halfling's Gem sucked, but it wasn't Drizzt's fault). Then he just starts swallowing the series whole.

In The Crystal Shard, we have a diverse cast of characters each making meaningful contributions to the story, and if anyone is singled out, it's Wulfgar. Streams of Silver is Bruenor's story, and heck, I always wanted to see a successful retaking of Moria. Throughout the Dark Elf Trilogy, Drizzt is the main focus, but it is his origin story, and the Do'Urden family has plenty else to occupy itself with.

(Drow machinations, and heck, the Ten-Towns politics, are easily my favorite aspect of Salvatore's work.)

But as the series progresses, every adversary is out to get Drizzt, and the events become not so much the important thing as how Drizzt emotes about them. He can't even come up with an original thought about Entreri since they met back in Streams of Silver - he's a very admirable and awesome character, but by a certain point we know how he thinks about pretty much anything, so all the musing is pretty much useless - and it steadily increases the angsty-to-stoic ratio, making him less awesome. Can't we get inside Catti-brie's head for once?

[Nerd-o-rama]

I find both arguments equally well-supported.

Regarding Drizzt, I think we can safely say that he created a huge following of Mary Sue fanwork, even if he isn't one himself. That's enough to turn me off the character, personally.

[Anteros]

But as the series progresses, every adversary is out to get Drizzt, and the events become not so much the important thing as how Drizzt emotes about them. He can't even come up with an original thought about Entreri since they met back in Streams of Silver - he's a very admirable and awesome character, but by a certain point we know how he thinks about pretty much anything, so all the musing is pretty much useless - and it steadily increases the angsty-to-stoic ratio, making him less awesome. Can't we get inside Catti-brie's head for once?

I agree with this completely.

And sorry FF. I'm not going to say that his writing is without merit, but calling him one of the greatest fantasy writers of the century is pretty laughable.

[freerangetroll]

I agree with this completely.

And sorry FF. I'm not going to say that his writing is without merit, but calling him one of the greatest fantasy writers of the century is pretty laughable.

Got to hand it to FF, he is consistent in his taste.

[chiasaur11]

I agree with this completely.

And sorry FF. I'm not going to say that his writing is without merit, but calling him one of the greatest fantasy writers of the century is pretty laughable.

Yeah, especially if you mean the century with the 1990s in it.

I mean, at bare minimum, no thought, no research, there's, yaknow, Tolkien.

[freerangetroll]

Yeah, especially if you mean the century with the 1990s in it.

I mean, at bare minimum, no thought, no research, there's, yaknow, Tolkien.

Tolkien, Howard, Erickson, Green, Brooks, Eddings, Martin... on and on.

[averagejoe]

Tolkien, Howard, Erickson, Green, Brooks, Eddings, Martin... on and on.

*looks to the left* And, you know, King. It's not traditional fantasy, but he definitely has his fantasy moments.

This is only slightly off topic, but what are the first books? I've been considering reading at least one Salvarore, if for no other reason than to see what this Drizzt phenomenon is all about, but have no idea where to start.

[kpenguin]

This is only slightly off topic, but what are the first books? I've been considering reading at least one Salvarore, if for no other reason than to see what this Drizzt phenomenon is all about, but have no idea where to start.

Like many series, the Drizzt books have their prequels and their sequels and their original trilogy.

The original trilogy in this case is known as the Icewind Dale Trilogy. It starts with Crystal Shard. Interesting note: Salvatore intended Wulfgar to be the hero of the first book, but along came Drizzt... he still is sorta the protagonist of the first book, even if he doesn't take down the big bad.

If you want to know the basics of Drizzt, you might want to look at the prequels dealing with his backstory. It begins with Homeland.

[Bandededed]

I'm angry, but still reading them. This is because
In the last full trilogy (Hunter's Blades), we meet our new antagonist and see some pretty interesting stuff with regards to orcs and city creation. Then, the entire book is dissolved into giant fight scene after giant fight scene, and in the end, nothing is really resolved, so now I have to buy the next freaking trilogy. The problem is I usually buy the collectors editions to make for a quicker segway(sp...) into the last book, and up until this series, they always ended with the main antagonist defeated and the entire collection wrapped up. So, I have been satisfied. But not when I just shelled out thirty bucks for giant fight scenes (which I don't especially like - party v party, biggest they should get) and have no resolution other than: "Oh. Well, this random untold number of them exist, so we can't get them out. Sorry, new orc state"

Oh, and the Cleric Quintet is made of awesome. Just an FYI. Cadderly does get a little Marty Stu-ish at the end, but after starting at level 1, he's now approaching epic, so I give him a little leeway.

[Da Beast]

Yes, he was an excuse. An excuse apparently potent enough to motivate an entire city into invasion. A city whom he didn't even do anything to but leave. That's hardly normal.

For humans it wouldn't be. For a society of chaotic evil cave dwellers who live solely to please their psychotic goddess who treats her followers like playthings it's a bit more understandable.

[EvilElitest]

No, it isn't Salvatore's fault. But it's still a flaw with the character. Whether or not it's Salvatore's fault is completely irrelevant.

But it is like eddings, if you consider the fact taht he doesn't have a choice, he does a good job with the tools he is given.


Maybe he is insightful. You're certainly meant to think so. The point is that he is never shown as wrong. His logic never is shown to have flaws. Characters without flaws are bad.

except i showed examples where he has been wrong. Ok, by the time we get to the last trilogy its kinda absurd, but he still isn't 100% right. And i love characters who are morally grey, i really do, but it isn't a giant flaw just because Drizzt isn't Jamie Lanninister


My point is that the novels and the antagonists focus entirely too much upon Drizzt and not enough upon an actual plot. Good stories generally have the protagonist reacting to the antagonist, not vice versa.

Wait, that isn't true. A protagonist doesn't have to simply react to the villains, i mean look at Martine or Edding's work, compared to say Eragon or Harry Potter


Umm no. The mask happened to be sitting in a cave nearby just when he needed it. The sword just happened to have anti fire and demon killing powers that show up just when he gets dragged into a fire against a demon. And he was carrying the sack of flour around on his belt! (or a necklace I forget.) Flour may be common, but that's hardly a common practice. It's very, very convenient. Especially given that he didn't even bother to replace it after he used it.
1) The mask, fine, but he didn't really needed it. It wasn't deus ex machina, because he wasn't really that needed it, he just could have used one
2) The sword i'll give to you
3) Actually i think he brought the flour for cooking actually instead of actual combat purposes. And it was his belt.



As I said, this is soley my own personal preference. There is absolutely no reason for me to argue with you. You enjoy them and I am glad for you. I'm sure there are things that I enjoy that you do not.
I'm just confused on what you don't like his combat. i can see all of your other points, if i don't agree but that one is a little jaring. I can see where your coming from with the other points certainly, if i personally think your wrong, its just odd here however



EE. I did not say he wins every argument. I said he is always right. There is a huge difference. I can tell a murderer that murder is wrong and fail to convince him, but most people will still agree that murder is wrong whether I convince him or not.

except that Drizzt isn't always right. he is the main moral character, but that is hardly a mary sue move


By the time Cadderly interacts with Drizzt he's likely an epic level cleric, or close to it. It's not a big surprise that he's very powerful. I'd argue against Cadderly being a Marty Stu, though, for the simple reason that Salvatore never wanted to write him. He wanted to write about a monk. Only, by the time he started that series (because he wanted to get away from Drizzt & Co.) monks were out or something. So, he was told to do something else. He knew clerics, so he wrote a cleric who didn't believe in his god (though later he comes to the realization that he is very wrong).


Caddy is very much a mary sue in his third and fourth book, painfully so. His girlfiend as well. However they weren't in the first two books, and both get better in the final book, which is by far the best in that series. But your are right about him wanting to write about a monk (he did the different monks in his own setting very well).




You're supposed to agree with them, but in good fiction they still have flaws.
drizzt is conservative, arrogant, depressed, bloody crazy and has major trama issues. Not a martin character certainly, but he is on the level of an eddings character, through not as funny



My point isn't whether or not these character's motivations make sense, it's that too many character's motivations revolve directly around Drizzt. Yes, they make sense, but that doesn't make it interesting when the billionth character swears revenge.

how don't they make sense. Bounty hunters exist in real life, as do vendettas. Quests for vengence are a norm in fantasy, just the tables are turned. The drow are pretty obvious. Only Enterai has a truly personally vendetta, which makes sense considering his character



As for Drizzt's father being his role model, I agree with you. But who was his father's role model?
His father isn't good it is worth noting. He is evil, he just has devolped a very depressed and cynical understanding of the world around him. He is not good, he is just aware of the massive stupidity of the drow's existence. more importantly, he is aware of the fact that the drow are inherently ruthless and cruel beings who lack any thing they actually care about. Zak is more fascinated with drizzt's innocence as he hasn't lost his feelings yet



Drizzt humiliated him. From that moment on it was never about the bounty, it was all about his injured pride.
partly, money was an issue (there was a lot of money at stake)



Drizzt was an excuse. They probably would have invaded regardless of whether Drizzt was there, he was just a convenient extra reason.
destroying the high temple is one good reason



Look at how long it took him to get together with Cattie-Brie because he was so concerned about what would happen 40 years down the road. He had to be taught how to live in the now, rather than the future.

Actually i think he was better before his change


Yes, he was an excuse. An excuse apparently potent enough to motivate an entire city into invasion. A city whom he didn't even do anything to but leave. That's hardly normal.
1) A drow hereatic. As Salvatore doesn't use the church of elistree, it is understandable they would hate that.
2) he did you know, slaughter the some drow nobles
3) and destroy the high temple of lolth
4) and kill one of the son's.
5) finally, the drow don't have morals remember. The reason is only a facade and they know that. They just want the land/obey Lolth's order. Like many real life imperalistic motives



First three Drizzt novels? Entertaining, but nothing special. Everything after that was just plain old boring. Anteros has pretty much expressed how I see the series, it also isn't helped by the fact that Salvatore in my opinion is a very poor (read formulaic) writer.
i think legacy of the drow was the best. It went down hill from there sadly



wouldn't believe that he'd rolled that well unless I was watching him roll with my dice. On strength, I seem to recall him parrying attacks from giants with heavy clubs. Wulfgar may be stronger, but Drizzt is stronger than everyone else in the books. I'm not saying that he couldn't, or even shouldn't, have high scores. But the BEST at EVERYTHING? I believe someone mentioned earlier that he has no flaws, aside from the tendency toward being an emo twit at time. Which makes him a boring character.

For the record, it is possible to have high stats. Really, it is.

But anyways, he wasn't made as a D&D character. you can't fault the books for the game portrayal of him, particularly when they don't match up.




What about how he was the best every year in school, being the only one with no stealth.
Well he did get shanked once. I will give this one to you. Personally, i've always wondered why they didn't group up on him. Through he did use stealth after he was shanked the first time



At first, he's very hurt by people not accepting who he is, and even goes to great lengths to avoid people knowing he's a drow.
As mentioned above, this is partly that he doesn't want people to try to kill him because he's Drow... and partly because he's Tortured, Outcast, and Alone. Superficial depth that manages to hold out no matter how many people he saves or who ends up deciding he's the bestest dude ever, because it just isn't Drizzt if he isn't at least a bit Outcast and Alone.

If he is the first good drow, how does that count as a cliche? Drizzt clones, certainly, but drizzt himself can't be considered clone



I don't know if I'd call the Drizzt books trashy. Intended for younger audiences, yes. They're the kind of watered-down, good guy is always right, good always wins that the media has been shoving down our throats for ages.
In the first book therei s a demon orgy? For younger audiences? And a family is slaughtered in the third one. And in the first one an entire gnome settlement. Ect ect ect. The later books i can give you down for good always wins, but considering he actually has pretty cool villains who aren't totally moronic (just selfish) it isn't totally like what you say

I like how his dwarves are portrayed except for the accents.



Obould is the greatest characters Salvatore has ever written (not including Cadderly, or Danica), and, Obould had nothing to do with Drizzt whatsoever (in contrast to 'everything revolves around Drizzt'). Drizzt just decided to get himself involved. Obould is my favourite 'villain' of the Drizzt Saga.

Sorry, The Sellswords was cool, but, I dislike Entrerei/Jaralaxle because of the fanboys assciated with one or both of them. But even Entrerei turned angsty (for no reason aside for what seems like Salvatore wanted to turn Entrerei into a 'sympathetic' villain...Or even a misunderstood hero).

The obould saga was ruined by the recone of FR sadly.

the sellswords just were well written (well ,the later two) I will say through, i think the fact that Enterai at first becomes all emotional and angsty for a while, then stabs the women he loves in the back and goes back to being a ruthless bastard is bloody badass.




Running off by himself to go and try and stop a Drow invasion single handedly? Wisdom would have told him that if the Drow planned to invade, he would be more of an asset by shoring up his friends defenses and allowing them to use his knowledge of the Underdark to aide in the battle.
He got his ass kicked too which i found pretty cool




now, what I don't agree with is the strength bit. he killed a Golem by slicing through its head. that's pretty strong.
It was an earth elemental, and he used a magic sword. Critical hit you might say
\



As I recall, Gwen was set on the other gnomes. I distinctly remember Gwen being upset/disgusted by the work (but that may just have been the mop-up). The mage apprentice guy was supposed to help Drizzt, but he didn't. His spell only finished off the elemental because he missed Drizzt with it.
No there was only one elemental. Drizzt was also buffed by a cleric. Gwen then hunted down the fleeing gnomes



Yeah, people keep trotting out the "It's not Salvatore's fault!" argument. What they need to realize is that no one cares if it's Salvatore's fault or not. It doesn't effect the character either way.

On the other hand however, using mis information to make him a mary sue, when in reality he just shares some qualities is kinda in the same vein. Also it is an effective defense for Salvator's writing (see demon war saga)

Well Salvatore is a bad writer in my opinion. But that isn't the topic of the thread.
considering he is the author it is relevant. Also have you read the demon wars saga, very good


Nonsense he is one of the GREATEST fantasy writers this century. Also back on topic.
i woudln't go that far. He is very good certainly, but Martine and eddings, for all of their fautls (Shining ones, i'm looking at you) they do a pretty good job
And of course tolkien


but as the series progresses, every adversary is out to get Drizzt, and the events become not so much the important thing as how Drizzt emotes about them. He can't even come up with an original thought about Entreri since they met back in Streams of Silver - he's a very admirable and awesome character, but by a certain point we know how he thinks about pretty much anything, so all the musing is pretty much useless - and it steadily increases the angsty-to-stoic ratio, making him less awesome. Can't we get inside Catti-brie's head for once?
i would argue it stays strong through legacy of the drow actually. The villains are still interesting (enterai less so but still) and actual can acomplish stuff. After than, he takes a plunge down hills, with the first sellswords seies being slightly better, but not much else.




In the last full trilogy (Hunter's Blades), we meet our new antagonist and see some pretty interesting stuff with regards to orcs and city creation. Then, the entire book is dissolved into giant fight scene after giant fight scene, and in the end, nothing is really resolved, so now I have to buy the next freaking trilogy. The problem is I usually buy the collectors editions to make for a quicker segway(sp...) into the last book, and up until this series, they always ended with the main antagonist defeated and the entire collection wrapped up. So, I have been satisfied. But not when I just shelled out thirty bucks for giant fight scenes (which I don't especially like - party v party, biggest they should get) and have no resolution other than: "Oh. Well, this random untold number of them exist, so we can't get them out. Sorry, new orc state"

can't argue with you there



Oh, and the Cleric Quintet is made of awesome. Just an FYI. Cadderly does get a little Marty Stu-ish at the end, but after starting at level 1, he's now approaching epic, so I give him a little leeway.
the first two were very good actually. the third and fourth were painfully, painfully bad. The last one however was the best in the series




For humans it wouldn't be. For a society of chaotic evil cave dwellers who live solely to please their psychotic goddess who treats her followers like playthings it's a bit more understandable.

Interestingly enough, some real life imperialistic society did do this
from
EE

[freerangetroll]

I did read the Demon War Saga EE. It still, to me, falls into the same formula that Salvatore always uses. I just find him meh. More power to those that enjoy his work though.

[warty goblin]

Nonsense he is one of the GREATEST fantasy writers this century. Also back on topic.

Drizzt has hate becuase of the reasons already presented, so VERY many crappy clones. At least have the orignality to change the story, and class if your gonan do the Drizzt style dual wielding!

Eh, writing wise Salvatore is perfectly respectable, solid prose, but I've never reread one of his sentences to admire the word choice and gramatical structure. On the other hand I don't stop every few sentences and groan in horror at his writing, unlike some of the stuff I've been reading lately (cough*Jacquiline Carey*cough). I mean most of the time his verbs actually agree and his sentences make sense.

Story wise again its pretty respectible, certainly well above average, pulp fantasy. For starters its FR stuff that is actually comprehensible to somebody who hasn't read every FR thing since the original campaign setting, and it keeps the weird creature creep to a minimum, which makes reading it easier since you don't have to go "are the Go-glun the ones with six arms and bull heads, or the half scorpion half dragon ones that spit ice?" all the time. If something seriously weird is put in there, it's of reasonable plot significance most of the time.

As to why Drizzt attracts all the hate it does, my theory is roughly the same as to why Dragonlance does. Some people don't like it, it is very popular, and hence it is to despised out of compensation for everyone else liking it.

[EvilElitest]

I did read the Demon War Saga EE. It still, to me, falls into the same formula that Salvatore always uses. I just find him meh. More power to those that enjoy his work though.

I don't know, the villains in the second and third book are actually extremly effective, there are more moral greyness, and in the 4th book its just a massive plague. The second series is weaker certainly, but the villain protagonist is ok in theory (if not in function)
from
EE

[freerangetroll]

I don't know, the villains in the second and third book are actually extremly effective, there are more moral greyness, and in the 4th book its just a massive plague. The second series is weaker certainly, but the villain protagonist is ok in theory (if not in function)
from
EE

See if you can get your hands on the Nightside novellas by Simon R. Green EE. I benchmark my "pulp" authors off of his work. Many of them, like Salvatore, fall short.

Kind of formulaic, but his characters are so interesting and the dialog is so full of wit that I can forgive that sin with him.

[Cheesegear]

See if you can get your hands on the Nightside novellas by Simon R. Green

The Deathstalker series by him, I find are extremely fantastic (if a bit cheesy at times). But, then again, I always did love the Space Opera.

[freerangetroll]

The Deathstalker series by him, I find are extremely fantastic (if a bit cheesy at times). But, then again, I always did love the Space Opera.

You have to be a really big fan of him to get into the Deathstalker series(s). I personally love them, but a lot of people I know can't take his over the top up, adrenaline charged, gritty and gloomy style for 600+ pages.

Androids, alians, and swords in space!

[Cheesegear]

You have to be a really big fan of him to get into the Deathstalker series(s). I personally love them, but a lot of people I know can't take his over the top up, adrenaline charged, gritty and gloomy style for 600+ pages.

That's why it's so amazing! It's extremely over-the-top, yet, still manages to be dark and gloomy. And whilst Owen does have a bit of angst about getting deposed and hunted down, he gets over it...Unlike a certain Drow.

EDIT: Don't forget Bruin Bear and the Sea Goat. Pure Win.

[Mr. Scaly]

Say...I wonder if Wizards or whoever Salvatore is writing for will ever let Drizzt be killed off. That might be something epic.

[freerangetroll]

Say...I wonder if Wizards or whoever Salvatore is writing for will ever let Drizzt be killed off. That might be something epic.

Highly unlikely. They still have 78% of the poorly played Drow market to tap.

Oh, and when he dies. It will be Cadderly that kills him, just for the Lulz.

[Destichado]

Drizzt is the posterboy for everything that is wrong with modern pulp fantasy. :smallannoyed:

He's an indecisive, emo, morally neutral limp dishrag who manages by authorial contrivance to be greatest swordsman in the world. He manages to be at once plagued by false guilt yet still be utterly sure of his own moral superiority. He's a blatantly modern creature stuck in the middle of a medieval world and immediately assumes everyone else is backwards -while being ever so nice about it. He's as one dimensional as a road map for the railroad plots he's stuck in. Gah.

I read the books because I met Salvatore -at a sword show, no less- and liked him, so I thought I owed it to see what the fuss was about. They're certainly catchy, I'll give him that! I consumed the four then-existing trilogies in about a month ...and hated myself for it the whole time. The prequels were the best of the lot, I think, but even at that I'm ashamed to have read them.

[Fan]

Yeah, especially if you mean the century with the 1990s in it.

I mean, at bare minimum, no thought, no research, there's, yaknow, Tolkien.

Wow, and I thought people were supposed to act mature on these forums. *gasp* What if I didn't like LOTOR?

[averagejoe]

Wow, and I thought people were supposed to act mature on these forums. *gasp* What if I didn't like LOTOR?

Then Tolkien was still a masterful writer who had a scope and skill that most writers couldn't hope to match. Say what you will, but the man cared about his work, and cared about making it the best he could for it's own sake. Plus he was good at the craft of writing, which most people ignore or take for granted (yet still they are attracted to it, most of the time.) Even his detractors don't seem to attack his skill as a writer; I, personally, have never heard a criticism levied against him that didn't amount to, "Lord of the Rings was not the sort of story that I enjoy."

And, anyways, Tolkien is the only fantasy author I've read who actually gave purpose and satisfaction to calling his characters by goofy names. I mean, let's face it, everyone else basically does it because he did it, to the point where such things are automatic even if they serve no actual purpose.

Edit: Okay, maybe not the only one. There's Lewis or Jordan, for example, who use those sorts of names to help illustrate differences, contrasting Narnia to our world in the case of Lewis, and contrasting the aristocracy with everyone else in the case of Jordan (note: this is obviously overly simplified, but you get the idea.) However, this doesn't change the fact that in a lot of modern fantasy it's just there to be there.

[Boo]

Wow, and I thought people were supposed to act mature on these forums. *gasp* What if I didn't like LOTOR?

Meh, I didn't enjoy the books. It's not really that I have to like the books, it's that I have to appreciate what the books have brought me in life. The movies haven't done anything, so I can have fun hating those.

[Fan]

Then Tolkien was still a masterful writer who had a scope and skill that most writers couldn't hope to match. Say what you will, but the man cared about his work, and cared about making it the best he could for it's own sake. Plus he was good at the craft of writing, which most people ignore or take for granted (yet still they are attracted to it, most of the time.) Even his detractors don't seem to attack his skill as a writer; I, personally, have never heard a criticism levied against him that didn't amount to, "Lord of the Rings was not the sort of story that I enjoy."

And, anyways, Tolkien is the only fantasy author I've read who actually gave purpose and satisfaction to calling his characters by goofy names. I mean, let's face it, everyone else basically does it because he did it, to the point where such things are automatic even if they serve no actual purpose.
I'm not saying that he isn't a good writer, its just that the movies, and video games made me nasous to the point of actually vomiting. Yeah, I know this is abit extreme, to hate a book simply because of its movies, but it REALLY ruined it for me. The reason why I consider Salvatore so good is the Dragonlance saga that us effectively in my opinion the 4th best series of books in existance.
Anyways back on topic Even in this thread we have examples of Drizzt haters; people do it because they either A: Think IMMEDIATELY of the annoying fanboys who make nothing, but angsty two weapon fighting drow B: Honestly haven't read the books C: It just happens to NOT be their type of book.

[Boo]

Again, you never have to like something, but depending on how it has affected your life you may have to respect it.

Drizzt is a well developed character to a point. I liked him at first, then I got tired of him a while after. That's just me, I used to be a Drizzt FB. Everyone is open to their own opinions, but I just hope they don't base them off of other peoples opinions without making their own first.

[mangosta71]

You don't have to like Tolkien's writing to see that he is, by far, the most influential fantasy writer ever to have lived. I find a lot of his work difficult to read myself, but in every other fantasy book I see elements that were first introduced to the world by Tolkien. So I appreciate him and what he did for the genre, and respect him for that, and hail him as a visionary.

[averagejoe]

I'm not saying that he isn't a good writer, its just that the movies, and video games made me nasous to the point of actually vomiting.

Well, the comment that sparked this was you saying that Salvatore is a really good writer, so I thought that's what the issue was.


Yeah, I know this is abit extreme, to hate a book simply because of its movies, but it REALLY ruined it for me.

Actually, I can see where you're coming from on that. :smallbiggrin: I, on the other hand, was practically raised on Lord of the Rings (and The Chronicles of Narnia,) so I pretty much have to defend them.

[Fan]

You don't have to like Tolkien's writing to see that he is, by far, the most influential fantasy writer ever to have lived. I find a lot of his work difficult to read myself, but in every other fantasy book I see elements that were first introduced to the world by Tolkien. So I appreciate him and what he did for the genre, and respect him for that, and hail him as a visionary.
And, I respet your opinion for what it is mangosta. Its just in my opinion Salvatore what moree well crafted settings, and the charecters (up to a certain point) were by far more developed. Did Aragorn ever have his ow backstory trilogy, or legolas for that matter?

[averagejoe]

And, I respet your opinion for what it is mangosta. Its just in my opinion Salvatore what moree well crafted settings, and the charecters (up to a certain point) were by far more developed. Did Aragorn ever have his ow backstory trilogy, or legolas for that matter?

See, that's what everyone picks on with Tolkien (because it's easy, I guess? :smallconfused:) but the bottom line is that LotR wasn't a character based novel, nor did it ever try to be. It was mythical, and strong characterization/character development was never the point of myth. I mean, who the heck likes Beowulf (for example) because of the strong characterization? In the end it's just not something that he was trying very hard to do. (Beside the issue, a little nitpick, the existence of a backstory trilogy does not necessarily make a character more developed.)

Also, what? More well crafted settings? The forgotten realms? Care to back that statement up?

[Fan]

See, that's what everyone picks on with Tolkien (because it's easy, I guess? :smallconfused:) but the bottom line is that LotR wasn't a character based novel, nor did it ever try to be. It was mythical, and strong characterization/character development was never the point of myth. I mean, who the heck likes Beowulf (for example) because of the strong characterization? In the end it's just not something that he was trying very hard to do. (Beside the issue, a little nitpick, the existence of a backstory trilogy does not necessarily make a character more developed.)

Also, what? More well crafted settings? The forgotten realms? Care to back that statement up?
Well i have seen the maps that tolkien put in his books, and of the lands that the adventuring group inhabits, and I will admit to it being a VERY meticulos project, but here is my main reason for disliking it, and the movies only made it worse in the books i could deal, but (spoilered for spoilers)

Why didn't they just use the bloody hawks to fly over Mount Doom whle they got soem idoitic army to charge the gates?

[averagejoe]

Why didn't they just use the bloody hawks to fly over Mount Doom whle they got soem idoitic army to charge the gates?


Well, for one, that isn't a setting issue, and the well craftedness of a setting isn't necessarily in how detailed it is. (Probably doesn't need to be spoilered, but what the hey.)

Well, for one, the eagles aren't at anyone's beck and call (except in the movies, I guess), so it's not as simple as just having them do it. For two, it wouldn't have worked. It would have been an extremely overt attempt to get the ring to Mount Doom, which Sauron would have stopped. Sure they can fly, but they're not invincible, and Sauron has flying minions of his own, and who knows what else.

[Fan]

Well, for one, that isn't a setting issue, and the well craftedness of a setting isn't necessarily in how detailed it is. (Probably doesn't need to be spoilered, but what the hey.)

Well, for one, the eagles aren't at anyone's beck and call (except in the movies, I guess), so it's not as simple as just having them do it. For two, it wouldn't have worked. It would have been an extremely overt attempt to get the ring to Mount Doom, which Sauron would have stopped. Sure they can fly, but they're not invincible, and Sauron has flying minions of his own, and who knows what else.
As I said I could deal with it in the books, but in the movies Gandalf had them at his beck, and call, so he could have just had Gondor charge the gates while they drop the ring in bata bing bataboom.

[averagejoe]

As I said I could deal with it in the books, but in the movies Gandalf had them at his beck, and call, so he could have just had Gondor charge the gates while they drop the ring in bata bing bataboom.

Oh, don't even get me started on the movies. Those were parodies of the books, not adaptations.

However, I would like to mention that the whole "Gondor charging the gates" thing was something that was very timing-specific, and built up as such. Plus, it didn't cause Sauron to blind himself, it just focused his attention. I mean, the movies portrayed Sauron as a giant spotlight, or something, so I see what you mean, but that was a very poor representation of what was going on.

[Fan]

Oh, don't even get me started on the movies. Those were parodies of the books, not adaptations.

However, I would like to mention that the whole "Gondor charging the gates" thing was something that was very timing-specific, and built up as such. Plus, it didn't cause Sauron to blind himself, it just focused his attention. I mean, the movies portrayed Sauron as a giant spotlight, or something, so I see what you mean, but that was a very poor representation of what was going on.
I'm not going to turn this into a LOTOR movie flame, so I'll move this thread back on topic.

The drizzt fanboys who make solely those types of chars are VERY inumerous in my experiance. Hell i haven't even SEEN a two weapon fighting drow on these boards EVER, so i don't knwo where these "uber fanboys" exist except on Ice wind dale online servers, and neverwinter nights.

[Boo]

My first character on NWN was a Drizzt copy. Although that character lasted about 4 hours before I ditched him for something awesome.

[averagejoe]

Well, my only direct experience with Drizzt was in Baulder's Gate, and I thought he was pretty cool. Of course, I might have just liked that game so much that I was in a near-euphoric state when I encountered him. I didn't actually know that there were a lot of Drizzt clones until I saw them in OotS and Goblins. Heck, I didn't even know he was a canonical character until I saw him in the FR handbook.

[Cheesegear]

Salvatore is a good decent writer. His one flaw, is that his main character has become stale and one dimensional (just to nitpick someone earler, a road-map has two dimesions :smallwink:). He is - as has been suggested - a 'bought' writer. That is, he writes what other people tell him to write. And if people want more Drizzt (let's be honest, there are more people that like him than don't, and even people who don't like him will still read the books), that's what he's going to write.

Somewhere (I can't actually remember where, but it was a little after Paths of Darkness) there was a point made that Salvatore might want to 'get away from Drizzt' and that was why the later novels were bad 'cause his heart wasn't in Drizzt anymore.

I'm not going to attack Salvatore anymore than that, because that's not the purpose of the topic. But if you want to read FR, I suggest you should go to the creator and read some of Greenwood's stuff (except for Shandril's Saga, which is pretty bad). Read up on the Wizards series, War of the Spider Queen, The Avatar Series...etc. etc. Heck, even Starlight and Shadows, which is even cheesier than Drizzt.

Once you start reading the realms that isn't Drizzt, you can easily tell that he isn't all that great a character. And in contrast, Salvatore becomes well, less good.

Not 'bad'. Just not as good as he's made out to be (like Tolkien).

[averagejoe]

Not 'bad'. Just not as good as he's made out to be (like Tolkien).

Ah, I see what you did there.

[Reinforcements]

But Salvatore's books that star Wulfgar are so much worse than the ones that star Drizzt, and I'm no fan of Drizzt. As others have said, Salvatore is an okay writer of trashy fantasy. Which is fine. I'll take him over Jordan, Goodkind, or Paolini at least.

[Destichado]

I'm with you on the last two, but Robert "Friends don't let friends read" Jordan is way better than Salvatore's pulp. That's like comparing an opera that drags on too long to a cute commercial.

...and seriously, people have *read* Paolini??? For shame.

[Reinforcements]

I'm with you on the last two, but Robert "Friends don't let friends read" Jordan is way better than Salvatore's pulp. That's like comparing an opera that drags on too long to a cute commercial.

...and seriously, people have *read* Paolini??? For shame.
Hey, I didn't say they were bad in the same way. I basically see Jordan as Goodkind minus objectivist rants. So you know, SLIGHT improvement.

And I consider myself a martyr that reads Paolini's books so I can warn the world they are the worst books ever. I suffer so you don't have to.

[Destichado]

Hey, I didn't say they were bad in the same way. I basically see Jordan as Goodkind minus objectivist rants. So you know, SLIGHT improvement.

That, and the Terry Goodkind Fantasy Bondage Hour. :smallwink:

[Ravens_cry]

I find something very disturbing when I read Salvatore.t. It toes the line of DnD's morality of, Monster Race= Unredeemable Bad Evil Dudes. ANd then, it goes into the 'monsters' head on the moment of death. We watch a person die from the inside, over, and over again, a person all the PC's call a 'monster'.
Creeps me out.

[EvilElitest]

Highly unlikely. They still have 78% of the poorly played Drow market to tap.

Oh, and when he dies. It will be Cadderly that kills him, just for the Lulz.
They won't kill him, Wizards doesn't have that sort of respect.

But cadderly? Eh?



Drizzt is the posterboy for everything that is wrong with modern pulp fantasy.

Not really, because despite the clones he has spawned, he lacks the shallowness of that sort of character


He's an indecisive, emo, morally neutral limp dishrag who manages by authorial contrivance to be greatest swordsman in the world. He manages to be at once plagued by false guilt yet still be utterly sure of his own moral superiority. He's a blatantly modern creature stuck in the middle of a medieval world and immediately assumes everyone else is backwards -while being ever so nice about it. He's as one dimensional as a road map for the railroad plots he's stuck in. Gah.

Fallacies that are aimed for at his clones then him
1) indecisive, not really. Could you name any particular instances. I'd describe him as more as too active, he tends to rush into things a lot
2) Emo describes people who whine a lot about artificial problems while ignoring the good things in life. Drizzt has actual problems, and does actually enjoy his life
3) Morally neutral? Eh, he is clearly good
4) your mixing terms by avoiding details, how is having an authoritative character wrong
5) A good swordsmen in a fantasy series. Oh the humainity
6) modern? Hes a massive conservative. And considering the D&D world has moral systems based upon a certain western view of morality, that isn't surprising
7) Could you back up the term won dimensional


Wow, and I thought people were supposed to act mature on these forums. *gasp* What if I didn't like LOTOR?
Drizzt books aren't nearly as good as LOTRS. not at all. They are a good read, but i am never going to claim that level of excellence




I'm not saying that he isn't a good writer, its just that the movies, and video games made me nasous to the point of actually vomiting. Yeah, I know this is abit extreme, to hate a book simply because of its movies, but it REALLY ruined it for me. The reason why I consider Salvatore so good is the Dragonlance saga that us effectively in my opinion the 4th best series of books in existance.
The video game and the books ruining the books can be somewhat understandable in this age actually

Anyways, i'd put salvator above dragonlance. While those guys have some cool ideas, the actual writing is way to thick



Why didn't they just use the bloody hawks to fly over Mount Doom whle they got soem idoitic army to charge the gates?

Everybody mentions this one, i don't get it. Its very simply. If sauron knew the ring was in his land, he'd take it. He's crush the will of the eagles, send the fell riders, use magic, control the weapon, have hte volcano blast them what ever, he'd crush them. it wasn't about speed, it was about secrecy



Well, my only direct experience with Drizzt was in Baulder's Gate, and I thought he was pretty cool. Of course, I might have just liked that game so much that I was in a near-euphoric state when I encountered him. I didn't actually know that there were a lot of Drizzt clones until I saw them in OotS and Goblins. Heck, I didn't even know he was a canonical character until I saw him in the FR handbook

He was so cool there. I mean, "don't poke drizzt, it is entirely unsociable"


also, this subversion is amazing

Double-subverted in a battle during R.A. Salvatore's Road of the Patriarch, when Artemis Entreri throws his sword at his fleeing opponents. Subverted partly because he explicitly throws it like a spear (point-first), and partly because it just embeds itself in a doorframe. Double subversion? It still kills the guy who tries to pick it up. Artemis's sword ''likes him''.
To be fair, in another book a thrown sword does work, but the other characters comment on how lucky they were in that
form
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

They won't kill him, Wizards doesn't have that sort of respect.

Oh I don't know. They did eventually kill Urza and he'd been around for much longer than Drizzt...though in completely different universes. I can picture Drizzt going the same way in some massively heroic sacrifice.




Anyways, i'd put salvator above dragonlance. While those guys have some cool ideas, the actual writing is way to thick

Your heresy is forgiven, though since there's a dozen or so authors who've worked on the world wouldn't naming a specific writer or two make more sense than grouping all of them?



To be fair, in another book a thrown sword does work, but the other characters comment on how lucky they were in that
form
EE

Scientifically speaking I think it depends entirely on the sword and how you throw it.

[EvilElitest]

Oh I don't know. They did eventually kill Urza and he'd been around for much longer than Drizzt...though in completely different universes. I can picture Drizzt going the same way in some massively heroic sacrifice.

I always wanted Drizzt to be killed by an angry mob without fighting back.


Your heresy is forgiven, though since there's a dozen or so authors who've worked on the world wouldn't naming a specific writer or two make more sense than grouping all of them?


I was referring to the orginial ones,



Scientifically speaking I think it depends entirely on the sword and how you throw it.
It was used as a javalin and was a slim long sword so it could work (thrown from up hill). They say in the book it is a bad idea however
from
EE

[warty goblin]

I always wanted Drizzt to be killed by an angry mob without fighting back.

Would be...interesting.



I was referring to the orginial ones,
Huh, I'd put the original two trilogies far ahead of Salvatore. I mean they are plenty cliched out now, but there is a level of enthusiasm and enjoyment of the world and characters visible in Chronicles and Legends that Salvatore's work just doesn't have.



It was used as a javalin and was a slim long sword so it could work (thrown from up hill). They say in the book it is a bad idea however
from
EE

This actually works less well with a slim sword, since the hilt is going to comprise a greater percentage of its overall weight. Hence it will have more momentum than the rest of the blade, and unless the force applied to throw it is perfectly in line with the blade, it will tend to flip around.

[Fri]

I always wanted Drizzt to be killed by an angry mob without fighting back.


That's actually what happened at the end of witcher series, that's continued in the game.

Gerald is a lot like Drizzt on the outside, don't you think?

Oh, and on FF Fanboy.

Hm, one of the greatest fantasy writer?

Well, maybe. I mean, if he's on the hundred best from the bajillion fantasy writers that lived on the 20th century, we might call him one of the best.

It all depends on how many 'greatest fantasy writer' we have out there. He might be one of the greatest fantasy writer.

Still, I can say at least ten better fantasy writer on top of my head without thinking, and maybe ten more if I'm allowed to think.

[Mr. Scaly]

I always wanted Drizzt to be killed by an angry mob without fighting back.

Funny, ironic and semi-heroic. It just might work. Hmm...or maybe Lolth might eat him when she gets bored of using him to spread chaos.



I was referring to the orginial ones,

Ahhh...well I gotta disagree with you there, but to each his own.


It was used as a javalin and was a slim long sword so it could work (thrown from up hill). They say in the book it is a bad idea however
from
EE

Wouldn't the hilt weight it down too much?

[EvilElitest]

To all responses

1) I think that Drizzts death at a mob hand would be good actually. It would still be dramatic and herotic, but wouldn't be cheezy and actually be sad. He doesn't die for a cause, he dies because of the fear of others.
2) I actually think the first dragon lance were very badly written. They had some cool stuff in them, but the actually writing was very forced all throughout. My favorite series was time of the twins, and yes, i did cry at the end. But the writing has a sort of amateurish quality that salvator never has (he can go for cliche, boring, uninteresting, more so in his later books, but never actually unprofessional)
3) I suppose. Griping the sword point in one hand and using the other to lauch the sword could work, but not well. it happens twice in Salvator's books. once with Enterai using it to try to hit an enemy, and he misses because it is a bad idea. An elf in the second cleric book uses it as well (she was up hill so i suppose she has an advantage). However, while it does work, she and here comrads admit it was a stupid idea, and the orc it kills only was hit by it because he didn't expect it at all
from
EE

[Jayngfet]

On salvatore's plots...


...Anyone else pissed at how the Awesome Ryld, we was supposedly this master swordsman that clawed his way out of a wreckage and into nobility through sheer will, wielding a Named sword and sporting magic armor.

...Got killed by a boring Draegloth fighting naked and unarmed, and only won because the went into a random building and one random guy killed in the crossfire had a magic axe capable of breaking a heavily enchanted greatsword?

Of course I'm also unhappy with how nothing came of being bitten by a werewolf?

[Mr. Scaly]

To all responses

1) I think that Drizzts death at a mob hand would be good actually. It would still be dramatic and herotic, but wouldn't be cheezy and actually be sad. He doesn't die for a cause, he dies because of the fear of others.

Sadly I think he'll probably be allowed to live to old age then die a natural death. Which is a pretty bitter end for a man of action like him, who could never sit still and always rushed to save the day.


2) I actually think the first dragon lance were very badly written. They had some cool stuff in them, but the actually writing was very forced all throughout. My favorite series was time of the twins, and yes, i did cry at the end. But the writing has a sort of amateurish quality that salvator never has (he can go for cliche, boring, uninteresting, more so in his later books, but never actually unprofessional)

I know this isn't the thread topic, but now I'm curious. What about the first two series seems badly written to you? Eragon is badly written. Sword of Truth got badly written quickly. The Chronicles and Legends? The thought never even occurred to me.


3) I suppose. Griping the sword point in one hand and using the other to lauch the sword could work, but not well. it happens twice in Salvator's books. once with Enterai using it to try to hit an enemy, and he misses because it is a bad idea. An elf in the second cleric book uses it as well (she was up hill so i suppose she has an advantage). However, while it does work, she and here comrads admit it was a stupid idea, and the orc it kills only was hit by it because he didn't expect it at all
from
EE

I remember the first incident. I figured that Entreri threw the sword to knock the door shut and keep everyone from escaping.

[Cheesegear]

At least in the Dragonlance novels, all the characters die (eventually...Some for good reasons, some for bad reasons, and some for no reason at all. Which is how deaths are supposed to be handled). Allowing the authors to create new characters.

Massive DL Spoilers
I cried at the end of Chaos War, when they were going over Tas' possesions.
And then I was too happy to cry at the end of the War of Souls because Tas turned out to be the biggest hero out of all the Heroes of the Lance, despite the fact the he, himself never thought so.
I almost cried when Sturm died, except he was a Hero.
...What can I say, I was a lot younger back then.

And I thought Tanis had a 'good' death, because it was an un-named nobody who killed him. And it was an (almost) pointless death.
Caramon just dies of old age / heart attack.

Almost all of the Dragons who got old made me sad. Apparently Dragons can get 'too old'. Pyrite (I forget his 'Dragon' name) made me especially sad, because of his description. Faded scales, failing sight, he memory/intelligence was deteriorating, etc...

Sure, DL was 'amateurish', but it did get a lot better. And most (if not all) of the characters 'grew' in some way. And, just like FR, if you read outside the Core, DL becomes that much more awesome (Like the Minotaur Wars)

But, even so, Raistlin has just as many fanboys as Drizzt does. However, Raistlin actually has character development over the series (Although I prefer Dalamar).

The Drizzt Saga doesn't evoke any emotion from me at all. Except for the couple of odd times when Drizzt/Artemis/Jarlaxle does something cool, but that's not a happy/sad emotion...I don't care about any of the characters. Which is where Salvatore fails (to me).

And then Cadderly appears halfway through the story, and I'm all excited...Then nothing happens. And we get treated to more Brothers' Bouldershoulder. Which was unique in The Cleric Quintet. But, in Drizzt, there are way too many dwarves.
Am I the only one who had trouble remembering all the dwarves?

[Mr. Scaly]

You forgot about Flint. Every time I read that part I tear up. Talk about 'old dragons', Flint was one if ever there was. Looking back, I think that that was the best way for him to go...he was an old man who'd given up the peaceful end he deserved to go trekking through the wilderness. Heart attack is more dignified than getting eaten by monsters I think.

As for dwarves, there were the druid brothers...Bruenor Battlehammer...Thibbledorf Pwent...Athrogate, basically the Entreri of dwarves...I think those are the important ones.

[Cheesegear]

You forgot about Flint. Every time I read that part I tear up. Talk about 'old dragons', Flint was one if ever there was. Looking back, I think that that was the best way for him to go...he was an old man who'd given up the peaceful end he deserved to go trekking through the wilderness. Heart attack is more dignified than getting eaten by monsters I think.

As for dwarves, there were the druid brothers...Bruenor Battlehammer...Thibbledorf Pwent...Athrogate, basically the Entreri of dwarves...I think those are the important ones.

How did I forget about Flint? :smalleek: I feel annoyed at myself for forgetting him.
I get sad (I don't tear up), every time I read the War of Souls when Mirror and Razor go off for zany adventures together. Which isn't very zany at all when you consider what they do (a chromatic dragon, and a metallic one...Almost friends)

As I recall, only one of the Bouldershoulders was a Druid. Ivan was fairly 'standard' - except for his Ring of Regeneration (what happened to that BTW? I don't recall him having it in later books). And there were way more dwarves than that. All the Mirabar dwarves that only showed up every so often, yet we were still supposed to remember who they are...

And I still hate the ending where Obould signs a contract. He's an Orc damn it!

[Weiser_Cain]

Love Drizzt, I play a less crazy evil Drow because of him. I may be here because of him and Raistlin. People need to play their own characters and let others play theirs.

[Sholos]

How did I forget about Flint? :smalleek: I feel annoyed at myself for forgetting him.
I get sad (I don't tear up), every time I read the War of Souls when Mirror and Razor go off for zany adventures together. Which isn't very zany at all when you consider what they do (a chromatic dragon, and a metallic one...Almost friends)

As I recall, only one of the Bouldershoulders was a Druid. Ivan was fairly 'standard' - except for his Ring of Regeneration (what happened to that BTW? I don't recall him having it in later books). And there were way more dwarves than that. All the Mirabar dwarves that only showed up every so often, yet we were still supposed to remember who they are...

Ghost had a regeneration ring, and I thought it went to Vandar.


And I still hate the ending where Obould signs a contract. He's an Orc damn it!

Well, yes. The idea was to break away from the stereotype.

[tribble]

Salvatore's works are simply not very imaginative over all. We see One dwarf that is not the scottish miner rawr-smash-orcs over the course of the series. his villians seem to consist of: A-holes with a vendetta(Errtu, Artemis, and to a lesser extent the elf of the unspellable name:smallwink:), and imperialistic conquerers like obould and the shrivelly drow matron.

[Raz_Fox]

I must say that personally I like the Drizzt series, for several reasons.

- I admire his fight scenes, I find them very descriptive and engaging and worthy of imitation in my own writing.
- Simply put, some of his characters are memorable. Drizzt is, though a slight Mary Sue, a hero with actual morals. Jarlaxle is a wonderful Magnificent Bastard and the family of wizards (whose name has slipped my memory) are a refreshing source of comic relief. The Drizzt series is one of the few series with Dwarves that I actually respect. (I used to hate Dwarves with a passion).
- Oh, did I mention the wonderful swordfighting scenes?

[snoopy13a]

Seriously, why do people have such a hatred for Drizzt? I've always thought he was a well developed character with a good story. Salvatore can write well. Maybe not on the level of the greats, but well. I have yet to see any argument against Drizzt that didn't basically boil down to being annoyed at what his creation sparked and/or misinformation about the character (like thinking he's a Gary Stu or was the author's favorite character at the table).

If you like him then you shouldn't care what other people think.

[Woot Spitum]

My problem with Drizzt is that he hasn't really changed much as a character over the course of the books. I was also extremely disappointed with the Hunter's Blades trilogy. Honestly, the ending seemed to be nothing more than a thinly shaded attempt to tie in to future book series.

And yes, I felt that Ryld's death was extraordinarily lame and contrived. It was as if he were killed off merely because it was conveniant to the plot.

[Weiser_Cain]

He's less whiny if you ask me... do elves change all that much over so short a time anyway?

[Kaihaku]

Seriously, why do people have such a hatred for Drizzt? I've always thought he was a well developed character with a good story. Salvatore can write well. Maybe not on the level of the greats, but well. I have yet to see any argument against Drizzt that didn't basically boil down to being annoyed at what his creation sparked and/or misinformation about the character (like thinking he's a Gary Stu or was the author's favorite character at the table).

It's not Drizzt as much as poorly done Drizzt clones.

[Vael Nir]

- Simply put, some of his characters are memorable. Drizzt is, though a slight Mary Sue, a hero with actual morals. Jarlaxle is a wonderful Magnificent Bastard and the family of wizards (whose name has slipped my memory) are a refreshing source of comic relief. [/I]?

The Harpells are comedy gold. Harkle is also a respectable character in his own right, I especially love his wizard "duel" with Robillard... and, of course, the Fog of Fate.

[Kaihaku]

Okay...

It's been a few years and a few hundred 'episodes' since I last checked in on it but...when did "Drizz'l (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=080923)" become a character in 8-bit Theatre?

[chiasaur11]

Okay...

It's been a few years and a few hundred 'episodes' since I last checked in on it but...when did "Drizz'l (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=080923)" become a character in 8-bit Theatre?

I don't know the exact strip number, but it was a ways back, when they did the game's "recover the crown from the dark elves" quest. He was the son of Astos. He later joined the Dark Warriors, where he filled the "Only Sane Man" role.

[Kaihaku]

I don't know the exact strip number, but it was a ways back, when they did the game's "recover the crown from the dark elves" quest. He was the son of Astos. He later joined the Dark Warriors, where he filled the "Only Sane Man" role.

At least his name is amusing.

[Jayngfet]

Okay...

It's been a few years and a few hundred 'episodes' since I last checked in on it but...when did "Drizz'l (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=080923)" become a character in 8-bit Theatre?

Years ago, the light warriors killed his dad and took his swords(he got them back a week ago). He and black mage switched sides a while back.